He is not the same player he is 34 - only reason I want him replaced is his age - none of the older players are the same as they were 5 years ago - especially the likes of Bongi, Willie, Mostert and Am. Geez even Eben is starting to make me question and of late Pollard
I see no difference in Allende’s game except the addition of the occasional inept grubber.
Both Duds are probably playing their best rugby, in Dud Allende’s case it’s just finally apparent to most that his ‘best’ is very one dimensional.
Okay, let's start with one bit of nonsense..
"Fuck me so Willemse has limited experience at 12 having played there all through his formative years and probably 50% of his professional career - fuck your are stupid - seriously"
1) That 12 was Willemse's position at school? All sources I can find suggest he played at 10. All I read is that he played at 10 exclusively.
--> Site your sources because here are mine.
2) Willemse has started 50% of pro games at 12.
In about 50 Boks tests, he has played at 12 once and played there for under one half of rugby.
He has just over 100 caps for the Stormers.
I'm gonna say that he has less than 20 caps at 12. But let's be generous and say that he started at 12 in 30 games.
We could could of course ask anybody here that actually watches rugby and they would confirm that he has started way more than half his caps at 15, while also having a good amount at 10...and then roughly 20-30 at 12.
At the age of 27, this seasons has seen him started more at 12 than any season before...I count 6 starts.
TLDR; DW never played at 12 during his formative years. In DW's just over 150 caps, he has started at 12 about 20-30 times which equates to roughly 15% of his career or about 1 season's worth of matches.
Now, let's revisit this statement from Dawie;
"Because Roos does not have the nuances of a rugby centre, something built over years of having played the position
Centre is the most difficult position on the field to shine
A centres rugby IQ is accumulated over time, He has subconsciously banked attacking and defensive reads through repetition"
We now know that DW has roughly one season's worth of starts at 12.
So, Dawie, do you still stand by all these statements of yours? Those being that DW has spent most of his life playing at 12 and that you can only play at 12 after years and years of playing in that position?
PS I say most his life because you stated all his school career which would be around 100 games and then 50% of his pro career(+-150) games...so 100 + 75 =175 out of about 250 games.
Don't be a bitch now, Dawie. Either stand on your words or admit you were talking shit and apologise.
Yes Buttplug I stand by my take on Willemse playing 12 for most of his formative years - you know why because his Paul Roos coach said as much a good few years back. Said he played 12 all through his age group rugby but they moved him to 10 in matric
For WP he has probably played 15 and 12 for the majority of his career with some of his time at 10
So let’s just say Willemse has played more than 100 games at 12 in his life versus the fucking zero Roos has - get it???
Try wake up
Did you actually watch Willemse against Quins Dave .. if so describe what you saw
Yes I saw him against Quins - with little ball in hand I saw him beat some defenders with his stepping and I saw him set up the reserve 9’s try
Nothing much to report on given how poor the Stormers were but he was one of the better Stormers players
Willemse has nothing to prove to anyone - he is a seasoned campaigner and an incredible talent
Versatile but needed at 12 for both the Stormers and in particular the Boks for the obvious reason stated on numerous occasions - we need to replace DA and AE at 12, we have Fassi at 15 and Willemse is by a country mile the obvious choice at 12. We need him at 12 for the Stormers for the benefit of his role there for the Boks and the fact the Stormers are short of centres and have Gelant at 15
All pretty obvious really and I’m guessing Rassie thinks the same as he is a big fan of Fassi and Willemse and who would not want them both in the Bok starting side
Actually he isn’t the obvious choice, he is a candidate. If we continue crash ball rugby he won’t do well. If we play an open game he might succeed but how many late career position shifts have worked.
And given we literally don’t know the answer about tactics and don’t have a single example of his center success to use as a measuring stick, it’s not obvious.
As for the Quins game he was put away easily, missed tackles and really did nothing of note. Willemse is a talent at 15 and Fassi hasn’t regained form, this all has to be settled on the field of play
It’s very obvious to me and he is not making a positional switch, he is a very accomplished 12
He has already proved himself at 12 as has Fassi at 15. This notion that Fassi’s form is poor is utter bullshit and even if it was a little off it’s not like he won’t regain form - he is too classy not to - class is permanent, form temporary
Willemse playing the crash ball is pretty effective as we have seen and which he showed against Quins
Your take on his display against Quins is utter bullshit. He was put away easily - bullshit, yes he missed two tackles, everyone misses tackles, his defence is usually a strength of his. Did nothing of note - bullshit - he beat defenders and set up a try - fact
Willemse is the only viable option to replace DA and AE at 12 and Fassi will walk straight back into the Bok 15 jersey in June if he is fit.
If you wanted evidence of Willemse at 12 look no further than the NZ test - against the best opposition in the game
When last, if ever have we seen a display like that from a Bok 12. DA, AE nor Jean have ever had a test like that in their careers
" We need him at 12 for the Stormers for the benefit of his role there for the Boks and the fact the Stormers are short of centres and have Gelant at 15 "
For the Benefit of his role for the Boks?? He has been selected a couple of times at inside centre, yes. But it would benefit the Boks far more if he played at fullback. He is our best option in that position, hands down.
Stormers are short of Centres?? That's not true:
Johnathon Roche, Joshua Boulle, Luke Burger, upcoming young star Markus Muller. Older core: Ruhan Nel, Dan Dup. Damian Markus, Wandisile Simelane.
As for Gelant at 15, his form has been poor, and he is the weakest defender in that position.
Dodson should seriously consider bringing in more backup at fullback to assist Damian Willemse.
Oh fuck off your rugby ignorance is boring
Last I checked, facts aren’t ignorance. Disagree if you want, but at least bring some substance.
You would not know what substance is if it slapped you in the face
Too stupid to acknowledge that Willemse has NEVER made the impression at fullback for the Boks as he did at 12 and given this fact still stupid enough to conclude that he is our best option at 15, hands down, thereby ignoring how brilliant Fassi was at 15 a season ago
I rest my case - plain stupidity or profound rugby ignorance - take your pick
Fact is, Willemse made his name for the Boks at fullback, not at 12. His cover defence against New Zealand, his World Cup performances and multiple try assists from 15 are facts, not opinions.
Even in that All Blacks game you keep pointing to, your only evidence by the way, he moved back to 15 after halftime and Esterhuizen went to 12.
That’s when the game opened up and Willemse influenced it more, from his natural position.
Calling his fullback performances unimpressive ignores years of evidence and that’s the true definition of Rugby ignorance and plain stupidity.
It also shows how low you’re willing to go to ridicule Damian at 15, just to support your biased narrative for him at 12. Your hypocrisy stinks...
Fassi is a talented runner, but he has been inconsistent, injury prone, and a weak defender.
At international level, especially for the Boks, being defensively solid and decision making matter as much as attack. Willemse brings that consistently at 15.
You’re free to prefer Fassi at 15 and Willemse at 12, but don’t dress opinion as fact while ignoring what actually happened on the field. That’s not substance, that’s cherry picking.
Boom
Oh for fuck sake you idiot - everything he did against the AB’s was when he slotted into the 12 spot - how many more times do you need to be told this huh?
More to the point, why the fuck do I need to educate you on where he made an impression from against the AB’s
It sums up how rugby ignorant you are - only a plank would be stupid enough to conclude that because he moved to 15 in the second half, everything he did was from fullback
This is the stupidity I have to deal with on here - posters literally watch a game they know so little about
Beyond fucking irritating - it’s like talking rugby with a 5 year old
Stick to using AI at least then you come across as a halfwit
Not only that, but Dave talks absolute shyte about Willemse playing 12 at school.
Articles mentioning Damien Willemse at various points during high school. These range from grade 8 to 12...constantly referring to him as a flyhalf.
https://stormers.co.za/willemse-relishing-junior-bok-opportunity/
https://rugby365.com/schools/news-sa-schools/paul-roos-celebrate-victory/
https://sacsrugby.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/U18-CRAVEN-WEEK-.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com
Lol, I can literally not find a single article that talks about him at 12.
So, I guess the evidence must wrong.
Man up, Dave...admit you don't know what you're talking about.
"Too stupid to acknowledge that Willemse has NEVER made the impression at fullback for the Boks as he did at 12 and given this fact still stupid enough to conclude that he is our best option at 15, hands down, thereby ignoring how brilliant Fassi was at 15 a season ago"
Whahahahaha!!!!
Surely you are trolling with this.
Unbelievable, really!
Well let’s see Dave appears to have accepted that all Willemse’s Wellington contributions were in the second half….when he was actually playing fullback, but ‘fitted into the 12 slot’. This exposure at 12 is now based on ‘fitting in to the 12 slot’ for half a game. Will this impress Geraasmus, not so far it seems.
In the meantime a glance at Willemse’s impressive match stats of 97 meters in 14 runs with 6 defenders beaten, draws the eye to Hooker who made 97 meters in 11 runs with 5 defenders beaten. Not a sheet of paper between them. But of course Hooker didn’t fit in to 12 channel.
And of course somewhere in 40 minutes on the park Esterhozen has to have been in 12 channel. He seemed quite frisky with a try and an assist compared to Willemse’s impressive try. Still he can’t be the answer for the WC, he’d be as old as Dud Allende was at the end of last season.
Here’s a howdy do!
Lol Willemse played at 12 throughout high school...then he played 12 and 10...now we find out that he basically played exclusively at 10.
I'm still waiting to hear why Willemse's total of about one season's worth of starts at 12 means that he has the "necessary data" to play at 12. 5 minutes ago the requirement for years of 12 experience was used as the primary reason for excluding Roos from ever doing it.
Quite a muddle, wouldn't you say, Dawie?
Buttplug you really are a pathetic fucking liar - there is no article mentioning Willemse playing 10 at lower age group levels you lying prick
I recall his Paul Roos coach saying he had played 12 most of his school playing career and was moved to 10 playing for the first team
Your references are when he was playing first team you fucking idiot
At Paul Roos, Willemse did play a fair amount of rugby at 12 early on, especially in his junior and mid-school years. He was:
So coaches initially used him as an inside centre who could straighten, carry hard, and still distribute.
What did happen is that towards the latter part of his school career, Paul Roos shifted him more deliberately to 10:
“He started at 12, but once we realised how complete his skill set was, we moved him to flyhalf.”
So the accurate picture is:
Which actually explains perfectly why he’s so comfortable at Test 12 now — he’s not learning it late, he’s returning to it with a fully developed pro skill set.
Case closed
Dave, you mong...look a the years in which those articles were written...
The first is from 2016...
The second is from 2015...
The two years at school where he will have played his most competitive and most important rugby, we know for a fact he played at 10. There is actual evidence to prove it.
So, we know for a fact he played at 10 in grades 11 and 12. Which is far from you initial statement that "Yes Buttplug I stand by my take on Willemse playing 12 for most of his formative years -"
You are taking one statement from his coach and deciding what number you want to put on it. But ya, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say he played at 12 from grades 8 to 10...lol. Those highly meaningful years hahaha
So, the question remains...how much experience does he actually have at 12?
Are you still of the opinion that over his 100 caps for the Stompies he has started 50 games at 12?
Also, if you're gonna use AI, be kind enough to tell us the query that you entered and that you are pasting an AI response...
EG Query;
Can you confirm that Damian Willemse played most of his school rugby at 10?
Response;
It’s well documented that Damian Willemse played most — and by several accounts all — of his school rugby at flyhalf (No. 10).
So while Damian Willemse has since become known as a modern, versatile back — comfortable at fullback, centre, or flyhalf — his roots were firmly at No. 10 throughout his school rugby journey.
Question to ChatGPT and response:
In which position did Damian Willemse play thru his high school years and straight after school?
During his high school years at Paul Roos Gymnasium, Damian Willemse was mainly recognised as a fly-half (No 10), especially in age-group representative rugby such as Craven Week where he played that position for Western Province in 2016.
ruggas.co.za +1
He also played for South Africa Schools in 2015 and 2016, where his role in the backline reflected his playmaking skills, running ability and kicking game typical of a fly-half.
stormers.co.za
Straight after school when he joined the Stormers / Western Province senior ranks in 2017, he transitioned into more of a utility back role.
Early senior appearances came primarily at fullback off the bench, but he has since been used across the backline — at fly-half (10), inside centre (12/13) and fullback (15) — because of his versatility.
SuperSport +1
So in summary:
High school (Paul Roos Gymnasium): mainly fly-half.
ruggas.co.za
Straight after school / early senior rugby: started out mainly at fullback in professional matches, then became a versatile utility back covering 10, 12/13 and 15.
LOL ou Dawid makes these statements and then totally embarrasses himself trying to force them to be true when the evidence doesn't support them at all.
Learn to pivot, Dave, it'll save you blowing up that throbbing vein in your flat forehead haha
Your articles say fuck all about what position Willemse played while at school you idiot.
I think the Paul Roos coach would know what position he played in at school don’t you think?
But let’s put that to one side for now as you are too fucking stupid to work out the difference between Willemse’s experience at 12 vs that of Roos at 12.
Im guessing that in the whole time Willemse has played the game that he must have played 12 at least 100 times - that is 100 times more than Roos you dumbfuck.
But here is another fact for you to ponder - something clearly beyond your rugby comprehension. Willemse has also played much of his rugby as an attacking 10, one position in from 12 and a very close match in terms of attacking skill set required especially considering how Willemse played fly half
So let’s say 100 times at 12 and 100 times at 10 - that’s all of 200 times more than Roos and more than enough time to learn the fine arts of those positions and nailing down the nuances of the position
Roos has fucking zero of that - get it?
Fuck you are beyond rugby dumb, but at least you are a step of Mpuff
Your articles say fuck all about what position Willemse played while at school you idiot.
LMFAO at the lawyer that can't read.
https://stormers.co.za/willemse-relishing-junior-bok-opportunity/
"Talented DHL Stormers and SA Schools ***flyhalf*** Damian Willemse is relishing the opportunity to stake a claim for a place in the Junior Springbok team to travel to the World Rugby U20 Championship in Georgia in May, and vowed that he will do his best to be selected for the 28-man touring squad."
...where Damian then goes on to say...
"“I started taking rugby seriously in Grade 10 when I was selected for the Western Province Coca-Cola U16 Grant Khomo Week team, and it was then and there that I decided I wanted to become a professional rugby player."
Dave, look at the articles, mong boy.
They are clearly dated. We have evidence of Damian saying he only started taking rugby seriously in std 8...and then we have articles from when he was in std9 and matric saying he was playing at fly half.
Why are you still trying to make the fact fit you opinion.
You were wrong. He did not play at 12 throughout high school...or even for most of high school. He may have when he just got to high school but he spent most of his time at school, most of his high level rugby at school, playing at 10.
Haha facts are such nasty little nuisances, huh?
Your articles say fuck all about what position Willemse played while at school you idiot.
LMFAO even more
https://rugby365.com/schools/news-sa-schools/paul-roos-celebrate-victory/
"Affies started the second half attacking but Paul Roos then got deep into their opponents' territory with a long kick by flyhalf Damien Willemse."
Perhaps you should simply admit that you can't read.
Um stop fucking lying you idiot - at no point does it mention him playing in a certain position other than when he played in the first team you dunce. A point I raised originally.
His coach said he was moved from 12 to 10 when he played in the first team - I recall that clearly some years ago when Willemse first starting making waves
Be my guest and provide evidence of the positions he played in from U9 to U16 to back up the shit you are sucking out of your thumb
But more to the point - how fucking stupid do you look maintaining that Willemse lacks exposure at 12 and 10 given he played 10 like a 12, which is why he never really worked at 10 given his inability to manage a game with his boot from 10. His hand to foot was always slow
Willemse has more than enough exposure at 12 to have nailed down every aspect of the position - only a fucking idiot would state otherwise
As for Roos he has sweet fuck expose to any position in the backs - so do us a favour and stop embarrassing yourself with this pathetic notion that Roos would make a 12 - idiot
Dave, you're flustered. I have shown you that he played at 10 in GR11 & 12.
You went from saying he played most of rugby at 12...to now saying that he only started playing 10 when he was in the 1sts.
...but he played in the 1st team in his final two years of school and he said he only started taking rugby seriously a year before that, in GR10.
So he played no meaningful rugby at 12 while he was at school. We don't even know if he played at 12 from GR8 to 10...there is zero evidence of that other than a coach saying that he was 12 at some point. How do we know he didn't play other positions?
Lol I love watching you try to squirm your way out of your stupid opinions when the facts don't match them.
You burst out of the gates with a raging opinion, it turned out to be horse shit, and now you look like a fool.
The smallest of men.
Willemse is a proven success at 15…..he was a flop at 10 …..now, late in his career, with no professional match evidence, we want to change him to 12 and bring back Fassi who hasn’t impressed since injury over a year ago. Geraasmus has other options at 12 with either more proven credentials .. .Esterhozen, or with a much longer runway….Hooker.
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Bullshit Buttplug I said from the start that the coach said Willemse was moved to 10 when he started playing for the first team
You are lying
Moz try wake up - Willemse proved his credentials as a test 12 against the AB’s
His performance on that day is better than anything Jean, DA or AE have ever produced in a test at 12
What on earth would be the point of investing in Esterhuizen at 12 given he is 32 and would effectively mean Rassie would be settling for his second best option at 12 given DA has been his preferred choice from day one
Hooker has proved stuff all at 12 to date
Fassi is a class act and it’s absolute bullshit that he has not been good for a whole year - utter rubbish
Fact is Fassi is ideal at 15, has the pace to exploit space while Willemse lacks the out and out pace required for a 15
Willemse is best suited to 12, as he proved against the AB’s and it’s where the Boks need him just as they do Fassi at 15
Only a fool would not want Fassi and Willemse starting in the same side and thankfully Rassie sees it that way as well
He proved his credentials playing from 15….his first half in Wellington at 12 was a nothing burger.
The point of selecting Esterhozen is to win the RWC.
I agree Hooker has to prove himself at 12, but to prove himself at 12 he has to play at 12
Fassi was always vulnerable defensively, but great on attack. But he hasn’t been that great on attack since being injured.
Willemse is best suited at 15, By your own measure which you used for years to justify the tractor at 12, physicality is a big part of the mix. Willemse is marginally dangerous in traffic and very dangerous in space . 15=space …12=traffic
Geraasmus picked Willemse at 12 in a game he decided to play it wide open and that gave him an excuse if we lost again. Since then he went back to box kicks and defense….against the Bargies, France and Ireland, all the games we had to win against good opposition. Who knows if Willemse at 12 is in his plans.
You lot still at it?
Oh wow we are back to the utter stupidity of saying Willemse was at 15 in the second half against the AB’s
Are you guys really really this stupid?
His two man of the match moments in the second half were created from the 12 spot - do I really need to tell you this. His try was created from slotting in at 12 as was the try he set up
Neither were created from the fullback position. Geez having to tell you this is like having to tell a 5 year old that because a certain player has a 15 on his back does not mean that everything he does on the field that day is as a 15 - hellooooooo
Old man Esterhuizen will not win us the next WC playing 12 - he will be past it and Willemse is a better 12 anyway
Bullshit regarding Fassi being off since his injury and utter bullshit regarding his defence - this is another pathetic example of a supporter incapable of moving on from their original take on a player. Fassi had a defensive issue - Rassie dropped him from the squad because of that
Fassi went away, put on some muscle and sorted his defensive issues out. Move on and try get with the present
Our next WC will see Fassi at 15 with Willemse at 12 and with that we will win the next WC
A fantasy supported by……nothing. But at least you admit Fassi had defensive issues to correct. For you it’s enough that he’s tried to address them. No need to verify that it worked. The try Willemse scored against a reeling NZ team had more to do with pathetic tackling than anything else.
It reminded me of Dud Allende’s try against Wales in the 2019 WC. Dud ran straight, he never stepped and succeeded because of feeble high tackling from Biggar. Likewise Willemse powered through powder puff tackling. Not so last week against Quins when I doubt he beat a tackle.
Willemse is a talented player, but he would be a very different 12 to Dud Allende. Given the choice today Geraasmus picks the Dud every time and picks Willemse at 15.
Since the NZ test Dud Allende, Esterhozen and Ethan Hooker have played at 12….against minnows and real opposition. Willie was available as was Kolbe. Why not against minnows like Italy and Japan give Willemse a run at 12.
Geraasmus’ selections since Wellington are more consistent with a coach that has decided Willemse is best at 15, than a coach who thinks the golden pathway leads through Willemse at 12,
Supported by nothing other than Dave's opinion, and a good helping of lies about DW having played half his rugby at 12.
Come now Plum, I remember when I was a barefoot pikkie playing 15 for Springs U 12 Schools I had the software of a test 15. Likewise Willemse at 12, if he ever played there.
Our source is Dave’s memory of a coach, unclear at what level, remembering he had been moved to 12. How many times unclear. How successfully unclear. When the coach said this unclear. But on the basis of that refutation, the burden of proof flips and you have to prove he didn’t play at 12:
‘Be my guest and provide evidence of the positions he played in from U9 to U16 to back up the shit you are sucking out of your thumb’
The null hypothesis has shifted to Willemse is a 12, you disprove it…from ….provide some evidence he has real experience at 12. Cunning stuff from Dave's legal days.
"Fuck me so Willemse has limited experience at 12 having played there ***all through*** his formative years and probably 50% of his professional career - fuck your are stupid - seriously"
Lol and we now know that is not the case at all. All we find is that any rugby that he played at school that meant anything was at 10.
All ou Dawie needs to do, in the face of overwhelming evidence, is admit that he erred. But the little man inside won't allow it.
And when we look at how often he has been at 12 during his pro career. He has just over 100 Stormers caps and about 50 Bok caps. Remember, Dawie claimed it was 50% bwhahaha!!!
On the face of it, his Bok career makes up 1/3 of his pro games. And we know that he only played at 12 a grand total of 0.5 times...lol 38 minutes, for the Boks.
So, to arrive at 50% of his career at 12, which is spastic Dave's contention...and considering that Willemse has just over 150 pro games under the belt, he would have had to play around 75 of his slightly more than 100 Stormers games at 12.
I wonder if there is anybody on this site, literally anyone, who agrees that Willemse has played even 50 games at 12 for the Stormers.
In the real world, separate from Dave's spastic, deluded, throbbing vein, extra chromosome induced idiocy, Willemse has probably started somewhere between 15 and 30 games at 12 for the Stormers.
...making up nowhere near 50%, not even close.
...and of course that flies directly in the face of his other statement;
""Because Roos does not have the nuances of a rugby centre, something built over years of having played the position "
Lol...DW has a cumulative total of one year's experience at 12, unless you count his highly vaunted exploits for the U15s.
And now that Dawie has zero defence he's gonna say "Well that's still more than Roos".
Perhaps we should thank Captain obvious for his highly intellectual and very informative contributions. All he really wants is a medal for competing...and watching highlights ;)