FIXTURESNo upcoming fixtures — check back soon.
FORUM / RUGBY /  Selection of overseas-based players . . .

Selection of overseas-based players . . .

Started by Rooinek17 REPLIES437 VIEWS· 22 Apr 2015, 09:13
SHAREXFACEBOOKWHATSAPPTELEGRAMREDDITLINKEDIN
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
22 Apr 2015, 09:13
#1
22 Apr 2015, 09:13#1

Interesting development. The Wallabies have relaxed their previous hardline stance on selecting overseas-based players but they've added some conditions. Overseas-based players are eligible to play for the Wallabies again but only if they have 60 or more Wallaby caps and only if they've played a minimum of 7 seasons in Australia.


This means that the likes of Matt Giteau, Drew Mitchell and George Smith are eligible again for the Wallaby RWC squad and it also means that players like Adam Ashley-Cooper, Will Genia, Quade Cooper and James Horwill (who are all leaving Australia at the end of this season) can extend their Wallaby careers . . . although Genia, Cooper and Horwill are all currently short of the 60 test threshold and will need to play a few more tests to be eligible . . . something that may make them consider postponing their defection if they want to continue their test careers.


Looks like a workable compromise. The All Blacks and Wallabies have always had a strict no-selection policy when it comes to overseas-based players while the Springboks have gone to the other extreme where we're prepared to pick anyone playing anywhere. This looks like an option that the Springboks could also consider where we get the best years from the player and then if he's good enough, he can still go make the big bucks later in his career without losing his Springbok place.


You can read the full story here.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2015, 10:33
#2
22 Apr 2015, 10:33#2
 Rooinek
My main problems with foreign club players being selected have always been clear and those does not relate to the past performance history as test players.  The following are problems that Meyer and his disciples ignore and the Aussies should bear in mind:-
*   The Japanese Club Situation;*   Performance Evaluation of NH Club Players
The Japanese Club Players
The issue is easily identified and has been proven time and again as a serious problem.   The Japanese clubs only play matches once every 14 days and as a result there are serious deficiencies in physical fitness.
When Club players return to SA they are undercooked and not up to standard from a fitness perspective.  As a result of this situation you find players -
*   frequently get injured when they are having to play in tests or in Super 15 games - examples are numerous and it is only necessary to refer to cases such as Peter Grant and Fourie du Preez as examples;
*   players lose pace and and are below par in at least their first few matches they play in the local environment eg JP Pietersen, Francois Steyn and a long list of others; and
*   player performances in their first match are acceptable - in matches a week later they are sub-par or not really up to standard - again Fourie du Preez in tests.
It is extremely problematic to select players directly from the Clubs without any local matches to acclimatize and get fitter.   In the case of test series and  the WC that is just not possible - so you can end up with problem selections not producing the goods in critical matches.
NH Club Players
The problem here is how do you evaluate performances of the Club players - even in their club environment?  The list of problems are long and problematic and bst illustrated by examples:-
*   James O'Connor was injured on his return to the Reds - but took time to get back to form.  His first two games for the Reds were seriously sub-par.
*   A number of players Meyer selected are not regular starting line-up players for their Clubs and their performance assessments are just not possible:-
       Morne Steyn, Johann Goosen, Gurthro Steenkamp.
*   Even when they are starting line-up players their performances for the Springboks have been seriously deficient:-
     Bakkies Botha, Juan Smith
The only successful Foreign Club Players  Meyer selected thus far have been Bryan Habana and Francois Louw, the rest have been average or below average.
 Conclusion
I think the selection of overseas club players should be made only if they have proven top class performances for their clubs and only in those cases where the local talent pool is seriously depleted. 
The fact that the list of reputation players is long - both in the case of SA and Australia - makes the selection of foreign club players without regard to proven performances a very dangerous gamble. 
Unfortunately         

        
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Apr 2015, 10:55
#3
22 Apr 2015, 10:55#3
 There should only be two options. You either include overseas players or you don't. If you decide to include them, then any overseas player should be eligible. If you don't include them, then no overseas player should be eligible. Not even Brian Habana. 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
22 Apr 2015, 11:08
#4
22 Apr 2015, 11:08#4
Ou Maaik, to make a rule that overseas-based players can only be picked if they are in good form is highly subjective and not really workable.

I've always been opposed to selecting overseas-based players and I've long said that we should be following the example of New Zealand and Australia when it comes to selection of the national team, but this compromise that the Wallabies have implemented makes sense to me.

If we adopt something similar then no-one is stopping anyone from playing overseas but you only get to play for the Springboks if you've shown loyalty to SA rugby over a period of time. I'm not saying we have to copy the Wallabies exactly and make it 60 caps or 7 seasons, we could make it 30 caps and 3 seasons but at least it's something to stop our talented youngsters getting the best of both worlds by defecting overseas before they've given anything to our Currie Cup or our Super Rugby franchises.

Just as an example, I have no problem with Bryan Habana being selected for the Springboks. He's been a great servant of SA rugby playing for 3 different franchises and over 100 tests for the Springboks, the vast majority of which were as a SA-based player. Where I do have a problem is when players like Francois Louw get selected. Apart from the fact that I consider him a very overrated player, he's spent over half his professional career overseas and I think he's only had three seasons of Super Rugby with the Hapless Stompies . . . the rest of the time he's been coining it for Bath. Less than a quarter of his total caps were as a locally based player. It burns me to see this overrated plodder getting picked ahead of young, locally-based and talented flankers just because he's got a famous grandfather and he occasionally has a decent game in the crappy English Premiership.

That's the difference. Now, if we apply the same criteria as the Wallabies then Bryan Habana would be eligible and Francois Louw wouldn't . . . and that suits me just fine!  
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
22 Apr 2015, 11:47
#5
22 Apr 2015, 11:47#5
 Quite frankly, this is appalling and will just open the floodgates for more money grabbing mercenaries to jump ship. Toulon is signing everyone and his wife, their squad must be about 80 strong by now, and it is a farce. World Rugby needs to put a stop to it before the entire game is wrecked for good. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2015, 12:45
#6
22 Apr 2015, 12:45#6
 Ceradyne
I have no problems with selection of Foreign Club based players.  Where I have a problem is that selection criteria does not take into account the performance requirement expected of players.   All too often we have ended up with players who are not up to standard or who had performance deficiencies when selected for the Springboks.  
That list is long and included players like Bakkies Botha, Gurthro Steenkamp, Morne Steyn, Juan Smith and Even Fourie du Preez.  The latter played a good game in week 1 and a substandard game in week 2 - it happened in both 2013 and 2014.   Aside from that lack of the required physical standard - leads to substandard pace and even poor performances in Super 15 - like Francois Steyn and JP Pietersen.
My contention is that the most important requirement is that NH Club players should not be selected on reputation.   They should meet performance criteria - and very few have in fact done so on a sustainable basis.   I can only think of 2 - Habana and Louw.         
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Apr 2015, 13:00
#7
22 Apr 2015, 13:00#7
 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Apr 2015, 15:25
#8
22 Apr 2015, 15:25#8
 What an idiot the poster of the horse photo is.  His brain capacity is the equivalent of the horse's .
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
22 Apr 2015, 15:52
#9
22 Apr 2015, 15:52#9
Agree Rooi - a good compromise.
Would not be surprised if the All Blacks don't adopt something similar at some point. They will be feeling the pressure after the WC ends and the exodus begins.
As much as I wish World Rugby would set some guidelines, I don't see it happening. No other global governing body of a sport limits the "professionalism" of that sport - at least that I know of but I think if they could get it to look like the NFL process, it would be good for the sport, good for the players and good for the fans.
It is up to the individual unions or domestic leagues to set their own guidelines / quotas for importing players.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Apr 2015, 16:21
#10
22 Apr 2015, 16:21#10
Actually for us,  it's a rather  unfortunate rule. It makes it certain you keep the services of older players who are already not eligible for other nations if they have played tests. But younger rising players who have chosen to pursue their economic interests overseas still have every incentive to qualify  for other countries. 

The fact is we have a harder time keeping young stars, than Oz And NZ. A fact we have recognized in not putting arbitrary rules in the way of fielding our best team. Oz and NZ have a similar problem with older super stars. Oz is trying to solve that problem.
Everybody pursues their own rational self interest. Sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
22 Apr 2015, 16:31
#11
22 Apr 2015, 16:31#11
 
clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 16412RE: Selection of overseas-based players . . .
April 22, 2015, 15:25:14 What an idiot the poster of the horse photo is.  His brain capacity is the equivalent of the horse's.


  •  0 Likes

It is actually quite simple but I did not really expect you to get it. You are flogging a dead horse in your arguments. You keep on regurgitating the same names over and over. Bakkies Botha has retired from international rugby and will be retiring from all forms of rugby (with a slight possibility of a few CC games) before the RWC. Morne Steyn is not in the picture any more, by the look of things. Gurthro Steenkamp has retired from international rugby. Juan Smith came back from injury and withdrew himself because he was not up to standard again when he was selected. And so the list go on. Fact is that at the time when those players, bar Morne Steyn, were used in the Bok squad they were there for a reason. The reasons are well known and has been argued on enough occasions.
You have shown often enough that you are not remotely in touch with NH rugby and is mostly in no position to comment on NH rugby. 
BTW. have you figured out, yet, why I said that if Montpellier get themselves into the 6th spot on the Top14 log they would be in the play-offs?
And another piece of info for you. How sure are you of the current form of Brian Habana, especially after his lay-off for injury? Do you know that, this season, David Smith has had more games for Toulon, on the left wing, than Brian Habana? Did you know that Habana has had a few runs at inside centre for Toulon, with David Smith on the left wing?
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Apr 2015, 16:36
#12
22 Apr 2015, 16:36#12

Thankfully they brought in that rule that if you play for your national side or your national second side (BoK A), you can never play for another country.


Because we do not have a second side like England (Saxons) etc do, our national U20 side counts as our second side.


This prevents the likes of Paul Willemse, Pat Howard, Kitshoff, Jacques du Plessis etc qualifying to play for another country.


Its the reason Tim Swiel withdrew from last years Baby Bok side as he wanted to keep his options open.

BE
becsPro4,378 posts
22 Apr 2015, 16:40
#13
22 Apr 2015, 16:40#13
 Ah yes, that's called  " having your cake and eating it ", Saffex  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 Apr 2015, 16:56
#14
22 Apr 2015, 16:56#14

For heaven sake, these kids have a physical talent for rugby. That's done in 15 years, it's a short career after which they have 50 plus years of much reduced earnings. To go on about their lack of loyalty fails to see the human equation.

 

I wish we could keep them in South Africa with better incentives. And if they go they lose player match up ties. But to condemn them and short change the Bok team is folly.

 

 

The reality is simple....the young kids see the dice loaded against them. More and more families have the next generation leaving. It's terribly difficult for these kids, not just when they leave but throughout life as they are severed from the older generation.

 

Young rugby players are not immune to these forces, we are a special case. Oz and Nz rules don't apply......we have to be more flexible.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Apr 2015, 17:09
#15
22 Apr 2015, 17:09#15
Spot on Moz  
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
22 Apr 2015, 17:21
#16
22 Apr 2015, 17:21#16
You need to try and get your house in order and we need to protect our own.Simple.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Apr 2015, 17:24
#17
22 Apr 2015, 17:24#17
Yeah imagine expecting a bunch of racist who don't give a toss about sport to get their house in order and drop the quota......never going to happen  
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
22 Apr 2015, 17:49
#18
22 Apr 2015, 17:49#18
 Yeah and imagine a bunch of soft hearted liberal types protecting their own....
— END OF THREAD —

More from Rugby

More news