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Some Perspective...

Started by DezertFox19 REPLIES535 VIEWS· 29 Oct 2015, 16:13
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DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
29 Oct 2015, 16:13
#1
29 Oct 2015, 16:13#1
So, lets get rid of Meyer, right? Then what? Select Ackers? And then what is he going to do? Run New Zealand ragged? Is that it? A fanciful little tale if ever I heard one. But wait, I thought the Boks were going to thump New Zealand. I thought Lood was the player of the tournament; I thought Damian and Kriel were the best centre pairing in world rugby. What happened? Could it be that you Meyer bashers are simply too slow to catch on to reality? It would appear so. 
Well when all is said and done we know that our most lauded players are not very dependable and not on par with their peers. If we get rid of Meyer, surely they'll play better, right? Lood will be stronger and exhibit better ball control, he'll have better hands and have greater endurance. Our centres will have better distribution skills, better reading of the game, better awareness and be faster and stronger, right? Kicking will be better? All the usable pieces will be better and this boundless flow of talent that is being routinely routed at Super XV level will be the best in the world. Keep dreaming. 

The game you want the Boks to play won't work at test level. You aren't even calling for the right kinds of layers. You want Lood? Would he be an All Black? Would they ever select a centre with poor hands and cumbersome movement around the field? Would they ever select a centre that cannot pass or kick? Nonu was ordered to sharpen his passing and kicking. They select the personnel to support the gameplan. Always. You want to play like New Zealand but you want our coach to do it with players who do not possess the ability to execute it! It's insanity. Meyer will be gone. Whoever comes next will fail to the reach the heights of the Meyer era. We may end up in another cycle akin the end of the Mallett era. A procession of failures until something sticks. Will we be so lucky to have another Jake or Meyer? Their work at provincial and test level benefitted the Boks for over a decade.
If I am right, will you acknowledge that you were wrong? Or will it be the coaches fault. Why do you stubbornly refuse to hold these players to the same vicious standards as the players you tear apart all season long. Morné, Victor, Du Preez, Schalk, Alberts, Louw et al will never play for the Boks again. Where will you turn for an excuse? Pollard? He was already booed for the hapless Lambie. This depravity never ceases. 
Well, you'll have what you wanted, at long last. Enjoy the ride...
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
29 Oct 2015, 19:07
#2
29 Oct 2015, 19:07#2

Just get rid of fucking useless Meyer for a start.......the guy is a complete and utter failure.


Cant select and does not know how to play winning rugby.....pathetically conservative  

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
29 Oct 2015, 21:18
#3
29 Oct 2015, 21:18#3
 Exactly Fox...failed in junior rugby, failed in 7s, failed in super 15. But getting the national team to the semis, with lots of injuries and generationally low new talent.....that's failure.
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
29 Oct 2015, 22:08
#4
29 Oct 2015, 22:08#4
 So kriel gets the ball 3 times in 80 minutes due to dom rugby plan.Folk talk about th Boks could achieve if they modernise. we lose on a disputed penalty when playinga very negative game.Dr Mozzz and Fox youcant possibly think meyer ihas been on the right track.Bwhaahhahahahahaha these two are such stirrers!! 
My advice dont take Dr Mozzz and the Fox seriously. 
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
29 Oct 2015, 23:24
#5
29 Oct 2015, 23:24#5
 We have more young talent in our ranks than ever. In all the time I have followed the game we have never had the quality of young talent we have now.
Our utterly disgraceful coach sold us short with his pathetic  investment in washed up has beens.  This WC proved conclusively just how poor the old players are.
We need a new coach desperately who at least can get the basics right and select the correct players.
One that is not stupid enough to ignore the likes of Kitshoff, Willemse, Jaco Kriel, Jacques du Plessis and Faf de Klerk to mention some.
Meyer is one of our worst coaches since readmission. He has won no titles has only beaten the AB's once, took us to an all time low of 5th in the rankings and had us lose to Japan....the greatest insult of all.
We CANNOT retain such a worthless loser. Passionate but clueless 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Oct 2015, 04:34
#6
30 Oct 2015, 04:34#6
No coach has introduced so much young er talent....and been paid in  such poor coin. Last Saturday Lomp rejoined the ranks of those who never came through. The  ranks....JJ, Kriel, Stepfontein, Taute, Goosen, Jantjies, Lambie, Reinach, Nyakane, Coenie, Marcel, Malherbe, Stephanie, Lomp, Coetzee, Whiteley, Kolisi, Daniels, Arno. Flops and half successes. But he left out Kriel, the perfectly ordinary Jaques du Plessis, and Kitshoff whose omission is so obviously political.....they would have made all the difference. Not.
MO
moolooman
Rookie26 posts
MO
mooloomanRookie26 posts
30 Oct 2015, 05:22
#7
30 Oct 2015, 05:22#7
 Why have so many 'promising' players not hit their straps you have to ask yourself. Over here we have our Smith, Fekitoa, Milner-Skudder, Coles et al.What is the difference in the environment that has caused this lack of progression from 'young talent' to 'getting the job done'?Just asking.Go the Chiefs.
WA
Wardad
Pro6,663 posts
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
30 Oct 2015, 07:18
#8
30 Oct 2015, 07:18#8
 But saffex didnt Meyer put all those promising young Boks into the team  ?But I suppose if thry are only getting a bit of a run now and then its not too good is it ?
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
30 Oct 2015, 07:42
#9
30 Oct 2015, 07:42#9
 You all missed the pot comprehensively.  Meyer's main problem is he selected the major failures in virtually all his reputation selections - all of them failed badly in the end.  However his other problem was usage of a game plan that has been a failure for years - generally known as stampkar rugby - a plan that has been thoroughly discredited by the NH countries in this WC tournament.  
It was that plan that was the main problem and his inability to adjust has caused discrediting of some of the younger players in the eyes of some of the members of this site, because they were prejudiced against the players from the word go.  They ignore the foul-ups of Meyer's older favourites and blame the younger players - while the real failures were absolved.
I think Meyer needs strong back-up in his coaching team - his present assistant coaches are useless.  There is a persistent rumour that his coaching contract has been extended, but that should go hand-in-hand with a change in the coaching complement as a whole.
Unless some fresh blood entered that component he will continue to be a failure as a coach.          
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Oct 2015, 12:39
#10
30 Oct 2015, 12:39#10

Meyer has not invested in any of the youngsters, playing a young player once or twice and discarding them as he did with de Allende last year is hardly an investment now is it.


The only reason we have de Allende playing is because our useless captain was crocked.


The only youngsters Meyer has invested in are Etzebeth and Pollard.


He has never got his selections right, not even close......most his sides sell us short by 50%......the only reason our side starting looking the part, well 75% of it anyway towards the end of the WC was thanks to injuries to useless players like Jean and Matfield and the eventual wake up to benching Jannie.


Ward, you hit the nail on the head.....getting a run in a side surrounded by a bunch of has beens is hardly investment now is it?


The Bok side for the last two years should have revolved around the following players:


15. Willie


14/11. JP/ v/Wyk / Sithole / Senatla / Habana / Kolbe / Combrink / Ulengo


13/12. Kriel / Vorster / de Allende / Serfontein / Odendaal / Mnisi / Frans Venter / Dries Swanepoel / Frans Steyn


10. Pollard / Lambie / Jantjies / Goosen


9. Hougaard / Faf / Reinach


1/3. Beast / Kitshoff / Nyakane / T. du Toit / Malherbe / Marcel v/d Merwe / Coenie / Koch


2. Bismark / Strauss / Marx / Scara


4/5. Etzebeth / Willemse / Lood / PSDT / Jacques du Plessis / Ruan Botha / Lewies


6/7/8. Jaco Kriel / Kolisi / Carr / Labascagne / Arno Botha / Vermeulen / CJ Stander / Mtembu / Schalk / Elstadt / Notsche / Coetzee / Brussouw


Everyone of the players above is test standard......instead we saw investment in Kirchner, Mvovo, Fourie, Jean, Olivier, Morne, du Preez, Pienaar, Steenkamp, Heinke v/d Merwe, Brits, Jannie, Flip, Bakkies, Matfield, Louw and Alberts


When we did see investment by default in young combinations like de Allende/Kriel and Etzebeth/Lood.......the world was raving about them. These combo's should have more than 2 years behind them now and true investment, not defaults.


Useless Meyer's first call is to a player like Jean ahead of Kriel or DA......worse still its Matfield ahead of Lood, PSDT or Willemse......these calls sum this useless coach up



 

DE
Denny
Captain12,893 posts
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
30 Oct 2015, 12:48
#11
30 Oct 2015, 12:48#11
Why on earh did Meyer pick Ricardo Meyer as his backline coach....c'mon guys that is just dumb. And if Meyer stays on does it mean that Loubser continues on as well?
BO
BokBF
Club Pro421 posts
BO
BokBFClub Pro421 posts
30 Oct 2015, 15:10
#12
30 Oct 2015, 15:10#12
 If that stuff is legal you got to let me know where you get it?
9. bounce pass Hougat 
I could close my eyes and have him on the wing but at 9 you have got to be having a fucking laugh!
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
30 Oct 2015, 16:11
#13
30 Oct 2015, 16:11#13

Ah so he has one pass hit the ground in that Irish game when it was chucking it down and an ill ignorant clown like yourself defines Hougaard as a 9 who cant pass......if that was the case dumbfuck, do you think the Bulls will have moved him from wing to 9 this CC and that he would have played a single test for the Boks if he could not pass.


Wake the fuck up......there is NOTHING wrong with Hougaard's passing.....never has been......take it you missed the CC?  

BO
BokBF
Club Pro421 posts
BO
BokBFClub Pro421 posts
30 Oct 2015, 18:15
#14
30 Oct 2015, 18:15#14
 Not only his passing, his option taking and speed of service also suck. He does pass the sub rather well when he is benched!

We are not talking about CC this is the BOK team where the bar needs to be set higher. Far better long term options exist and we should not waste another cap on him.

Lets get Reinach in there now for a good run.

DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
30 Oct 2015, 18:17
#15
30 Oct 2015, 18:17#15
 From the young 9's, Faf and Paige looks the best prospects. Reinach, close, but no cigar.
BO
BokBF
Club Pro421 posts
BO
BokBFClub Pro421 posts
30 Oct 2015, 18:39
#16
30 Oct 2015, 18:39#16
 I could live with any of them but lets not just offer two bites at the cherry then toss onto the tried but was not MOM in his first two starts pile .
DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
30 Oct 2015, 18:49
#17
30 Oct 2015, 18:49#17
 Agreed, we need to give opportunities to promising players on a regular basis. ..not just the odd 10min in nothing games.
MD
Monkey D Luffy
Pro6,277 posts
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
30 Oct 2015, 19:52
#18
30 Oct 2015, 19:52#18
symptom not disease

while meyers conservative philosophies are outdated and will regularly achieve nothing in modern day rugby, he should not be regarded as the cause of the Boks woes. he ism merely a symptom of the disease known as conservative rugby.

getting rid of meyer would be a start, but regardless of who takes over, it wont change much as conservative rugby mindset is embedded into the DNA of SA rugby on every level.

i have always admired a ton of saffa players, for they have the skill set needed to be able to compete with the top attacking teams in the world.
but the SA mindset which has been with ever saffa coach ive seen in my lifetime, has them refusing to move from the failed old SA mantra that bigger forwards and a solid kicking game is alll that is needed.

possible cure
the changes need for the Boks and for that matterthe SA spXV teams  to actually start achieving something must begin at currie cup.

SARU needs to come up with clever ways to force the currie cup teams to come up with a more trys.
like maybe a financial reward for teams who score a certain number of trys.

SA clubs have always had a huge say in how their affairs are run and that wont ever change, and with them winning is all they really care about, not how they win.
so an incentive of $$$ might be enough to presuade them otherwise.

once the currie cup starts playing a more expansive style, it will trickle into the spXV clubs and eventually the Boks.

i would also start getting rid of every single south african coach coaching in the spXV.

eddie jones with the stormers is a start, but there are plenty of NZ and a few OZ assistant coaches who would love the chance to take charge of a top team in the spXV and all are more qualified than the current crop SA have currently to take charge.

the problem with this solution is that even if its implemented straight away, its going to take at least 10 years before change is noticed.

the reality

the harsh truth is, i cannot in my lifetime ever see the saffa teams change their conservative ways.
u might see the books string together an exceptional performance here and there, maybe even have a highlight period like the Bulls did between 2005-2010, but IMO expect more or less of the same of meyers 4 year tenure from anyone who should take over from him.
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
31 Oct 2015, 13:59
#19
31 Oct 2015, 13:59#19
Meyer had the Boks playing a modern game. What you call old fashioned one off runners off 9 are in fact passes from 9 to pods of forwards. That's the shape of the modern game, that's how the forwards are managed around the field. Forwards in front of backs to create depth. First they hit up and try to get quick ball and suck in the defence, then the decision makers - 9, 10 and 15 for the Boks - call for the ball and they direct play. That's how the modern game is played and that's how the Boks did it. New Zealand do the same thing, but their locks et al are better skilled and have more running in them . Schalk was the lead forward for many of these pods as he interlinked with the backs. It was a seamless layer at times. Meyer was able to generate good quick ball and get some width. If you analyze the tests of the Meyer era, freeze at each phase and see what each phase is trying to achieve. Look at how the Boks create mismatches or 1v1s, 2v1s, or 3v2s. It's in these moments that we see the fan favourites fail to capitalise on opportunities. If the gameplan puts players in favourable positions, then we cannot blame the gameplan. It's all very easy to see! Why won't any of you learn? You don't know iw anything about Meyer's gameplan but moan incessantly about a style of play he has never ever implemented. Just flaccid terms that are used from generation to generation that appear to have lost all meaning. I will say this, as the year progressed, Meyer did limit the gameplan as the centres were unable to provide any spark on attack. They are supposed to be the players that the back three play off, but we centres playing off 15 all year. Meyer even had JP come in at first receiver because for that play, we had no distributors outside 10 and 15. However, its all Meyer's fault. Shameful. An absolute disgrace. I feel so ashamed of my countrymen I barely feel like watching the Boks ever again. This has been  the lowest point of Bok rugby. Not any failure of Meyer, but the fake fans. The worst fans in all of sports. Well, you better buckle up and save your best whining for 2016, because it's about to get worse. A whole lot worse! 
CA
carpetmuncher
Pro1,667 posts
CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
31 Oct 2015, 14:21
#20
31 Oct 2015, 14:21#20
 df how thick are you mate really.

if you love to see big forwards running of 1 meter short passes a night long maybe record the rwc and enjoy a bit of private time and at home alone with your favourite lube...
nobody in the world plays this way hence the result. the rules of the game has change the game fundamentally and certain key areas of the game that was not so important 7 odd years ago has leveled itself out. hence the game has evolved but sadly narrowminded people like yourself and meyer have not transcended your thinking.
meyer has been on record saying we dont have the skills to play a running game so how on earth do you expect a national side to adopt a winning rugby pattern if the coach himself does not have the conviction to change our style ???
you can sit and run through all the bells and whistles with your propaganda postings above the fact of the matter is we are not better off now than what we here 5 years ago. meyer did not build a team in the past 3 odd years and relied to much on a old team from previous glory. your playing style in many respects have runned backwords so much so it feels like i am watching a rerun of a 1950's game pattern. that being said i think the school of dok craven could teach meyer a thing or 2 about spacial awareness and basics like a flyhalf being the first receiver and not your blind side flank. 
as well you seem to fail to mention the implicit damage meyer has done to sa rugby by selecting overseas based players and the mass exodus of players from our local teams this has caused. meyer was a big pundit of picking overseas based players and without much thought he has weakend our local game so much that our super rugby sides are nothing more than a bunch of has beens. there is other factors to our local teams issues like pattern as always but not having a strong core group of players to pick from is a massive issue.
meyer has all the skillsets to be a world class coach but he himself is his own worst enemy. he is to emotional and makes emotive decisions and due to this narrowminded approach lacks the foresight to have a vision of what winning rugby is about.
if there was no elv changes meyer would have won a few rwc's for sure.....he as on the right track in this years champs but the shock loss to the pumas once again made him revert back to his conservative mindset.
meyer is his own worst enemy and it cost him his job.....at this level you have to back yourself and stick to your vision but if your vision is fundamentally flawed you are on the road to nowhere  
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