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Special Forces SAS/Seals/Alpha/Shayetet/Spetsnaz/JTF2 and SSG

Started by generaltit4 REPLIES715 VIEWS· 13 Nov 2015, 16:19
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GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
13 Nov 2015, 16:19
#1
13 Nov 2015, 16:19#1
.....and Delta Force, EKO-Cobra and Green Berets and others in France and Spain.



The infatuation of western people by so called ‘special forces’ or ‘elite units’ also drove them to worship the great german military units in world war 2.. any military historian will see massive amount of text regarding german superior military units, their SS units, the wermacht, the armour units… while you will be hard pressed to see good data on russian units that fought off these german supermen and superweapons..

Elite units ? no such thing…

US rangers , highly trained , highly motivated , light infantry , got slaughtered by german’s conventional soldiers when they tried to assault Cisterna in WW2… No matter how elite and how well trained these Elites, they are no match against heavy weapons..

General Swarzkoff had it right the first time, when he said he didnt have much use for Special forces in Desert Storm , because they all Primadonna,s Hogging all the Glory while taking off resources from combat unitss… Gen Swarzkoff said , his experiences in vietnam formed his opinion of these so called ELITE units, they punchs WAY above their weight and have to be saved by conventional units when they got over their head..

Elite units = only in movies..

In reality ? Extortion 17 anyone ? whole Chinook full of 30+ american spec ops operators, got shot down by 2 taliban night watchmen with just 2 RPG..


PS...For Wardad comments...this is info gleaned from an ex-special force guy...I think in a World War this would be probably true?




WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Nov 2015, 14:07
#2
14 Nov 2015, 14:07#2
 SAS in Viet Nam ,500 kills and 1 guy lost who slipped and fell off a jacobs ladder .For the most part western special forces in WW2 performed prodigious deeds especialy guys like the SAS ,Rangers ,Commandoes etc.Since Korea the US forces have tended to be a bit too gung ho while Commonwealth units like the SAS and SBS etc are the top of the ladder .Schwartzkopf coveniently forgets the intelligence he relied on was for a large part gathered by speicial forces like LAARPs [ the yanks love acronyms] .And all specialized units are lightly armed and rely on dipsh!ts like Schwartzkopf do do their job and get to the objective quickly once held by special forces .Special forces like the Rangers in Cisterna were used for something they were never intended for .My Grandfather and his brothers fought German Falschirmjagers or paras in Italy and they were way tougher and more heavily armed than Whermacht units and the toughest soldiers they ever faced .SAS troopers were always anonymous back in the day lest they lose their cloak of secrecy they rely on .As for shooting down a chinook ? In Viet Nam the US pilots talkes of "Golden BBs" referring to how if some schmuck puts enough ammo in the air they will get lucky sooner or later and take out a multi-million dollar jet with a clapped out Japanese WW2 rifle .The Russians ? The Germans reckoned they could always hold them off with well supplied regular troops in prepared positions with reserves available even when outnumbered 10-1 in men and 5-1 in tanks and artillery .And they did .But the god of war loves the big battallions and the Russians had plenty of those and as the man said quantity has its own quality.In the Australian Army the Parachute Battallion was 3 RAR and unlike other nations paras we were just regular troopies posted there and sent to PTS Nowra for training.Apart from that just another unit .Still better than the Yanks ,their Marines were barely up to the same standard as us "ordinary " Diggers and without their vast amounts of gear were pretty ordinary.But thats the thing innit ? Bigger and More wins the War .
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
14 Nov 2015, 17:40
#3
14 Nov 2015, 17:40#3
 Thank you Wardad...it sounds authentic and has a ring of truth to it...all these units are bloody good...this type of training leaves no stone unturned...

The Russians have been baptised in this and more experienced and have by far the most positive results in COUNTER action simply because they have faced the most tests...they take no shyte or prisoners too...but what's happened is that Islam extremists have taken to suicide bombings...and as you know there is f...k all you you can do against this foul str ategy...Jap Kamikaze tactics in 2nd World war...to me this is not bravery but psychotic...fueled by the promise of better life in the unknown next world which will be a shock to most.

Here's an account:

After the breakup of Soviet Union

After the collapse of the USSR Spetsnaz forces of the Soviet Union's newly formed republics took part in many local conflicts such as the Civil war in Tajikistan, Chechen Wars, Russo-Georgian War and the Crimea Crisis. Spetsnaz forces also have been called upon to resolve several high profile hostage situations such as the Moscow theater hostage crisis and the Beslan school hostage crisis to varying degrees of success.[10]

Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis Main article: Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis

The crisis took place from 14 June to 19 June 1995, when a group of 80 to 200 Chechen separatists led by Shamil Basayev attacked the southern Russian city of Budyonnovsk,where they stormed the main police station and the city hall. After several hours of fighting and Russian reinforcements imminent, the Chechens retreated to the residential district and regrouped in the city hospital, where they took between 1,500 and 1,800 hostages, most of them civilians (including about 150 children and a number of women with newborn infants).[11]

After three days of siege, the Russian authorities ordered the security forces to retake the hospital compound. The forces deployed were elite personnel from the Federal Security Service's (FSB's), Alpha Group, alongside MVD militsiya and Internal Troops. The strike force attacked the hospital compound at dawn on the fourth day, meeting fierce resistance. After several hours of fighting in which many hostages were killed by crossfire, a local ceasefire was agreed on and 227 hostages were released; 61 others were freed by the Russian forces.

A second Russian attack on the hospital a few hours later also failed, and so did a third, resulting in even more casualties. The Russian authorities accused the Chechens of using the hostages as human shields.

Shamil Basaev, mastermind behind the Moscow theater hostage crisis, was killed by FSB operators.

According to official figures, 129 civilians were killed and 415 were injured in the entire event (of whom 18 later died of their wounds).[12] This includes at least 105 hostage fatalities.[11] However, according to an independent estimate 166 hostages were killed and 541 injured in the special forces attack on the hospital.[13][14] At least 11 Russian police officers and 14 soldiers were killed.[11] Basayev's force suffered 11 men killed and one missing; most of their bodies were returned to Chechnya in a special freezer truck. In the years following the hostage taking, more than 30 of the surviving attackers have been killed, including Aslambek Abdulkhadzhiev in 2002 and Shamil Basayev in 2006, and more than 20 were sentenced by the Stavropol territorial court to various terms of imprisonment.

Second Chechen war

Main article: Second Chechen War

Russian special forces were instrumental in Russia's and the Kremlin backed government's success in the Second Chechen War. Under joint command of Unified Group of Troops (OGV), GRU, FSB, MVD Spetsnaz operators conducted a myriad of anti-insurgency and counter terrorism missions, including targeted killings of separatist leadership, in the meantime inflicting heavy casualties among Islamist separatists. Some of the most infamous of these successful missions were internationally condemned terrorists and separatist leaders, like Aslan Maskhadov, Abdul Halim Sadulayev, Dokka Umarov, Turpal-Ali Atgeriyev, Akhmed Avtorkhanov, Ibn al-Khattab, Abu al-Walid, Abu Hafs al-Urduni, Muhannad, Ali Taziev, Supyan Abdullayev, Shamil Basayev, Ruslan Gelayev, Salman Raduyev, Sulim Yamadayev, Rappani Khalilov, Yassir al-Sudani. During these many operators received honors for their courage and prowess in combat, including with the title Hero of the Russian Federation. At least 106 FSB and GRU operators died during the conflict.[15]

Moscow theater hostage crisis Main article: Moscow theater hostage crisis

The crisis was the seizure of the crowded Dubrovka Theater on 23 October 2002 by 40 to 50 armed Chechens who claimed allegiance to the Islamist militant separatist movement in Chechnya.[16] They took 850 hostages and demanded the withdrawal of Russian forces from Chechnya and an end to the Second Chechen War. The siege was officially led by Movsar Barayev.

Due to the disposition of the theater, special forces would have had to fight through 100 feet of corridor and attack up a well defended staircase, before they could reach the hall in where the hostages held up. The terrorist also had numerous explosives, with the most powerful in the center of the auditorium, that if detonated, could have brought down the ceiling and caused casualties in excess of 80 percent.[17] After a two-and-a-half day siege and the execution of two female hostages, Spetsnaz operators from the Federal Security Service (FSB) Alpha and Vega Groups, supported by the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD) SOBR unit, pumped an undisclosed chemical agent into the building's ventilation system and raided it.[16]

During the raid, all 40 of the attackers were killed, with no casualties among Spetsnaz, but about 130 hostages, including nine foreigners, died due to adverse reactions to the gas. Russian security agencies refused to disclose the gas used in the attack leading to doctors in local hospitals being unable to respond adequately to the influx of casualties.[18] All but two of the hostages who died during the siege were killed by the toxic substance pumped into the theater to subdue the militants.[19][20] The use of the gas was widely condemned as heavy-handed, but the American and British governments deemed Russia's actions justifiable.[21]

Physicians in Moscow condemned the refusal to disclose the identity of the gas that prevented them from saving more lives. Some reports said the drug naloxone was used to save some hostages.[22]

Beslan school siege Main article: Beslan school hostage crisis Beslan school victim photos.

Also referred to as the Beslan massacre[23][24][25] started on the 1st of September 2004, lasted three days and involved the capture of over 1,100 people as hostages (including 777 children),[26] ending with the death of 334 people. The event led to security and political repercussions in Russia; in the aftermath of the crisis, there has been an increase in Ingush-Ossetian ethnic hostility, while contributing to a series of federal government reforms consolidating power in the Kremlin and strengthening of the powers of the President of Russia.[27]

The crisis began when a group of armed radical Islamist combatants, mostly Ingush and Chechen, occupied School Number One (SNO) in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia (an autonomous republic in the North Caucasus region of the Russian Federation) on 1 September 2004. The hostage-takers were the Riyadus-Salikhin Battalion, sent by the Chechen terrorist warlord Shamil Basayev, who demanded recognition of the independence of Chechnya at the United Nations and the withdrawal of Russian forces from Chechnya.

On the third day of the standoff, counter terrorism units stormed the building using heavy weapons after several explosions rocked the building and children started escaping. It was in this chaos most of the officers were killed, trying to protect escaping children from gun fire.[28] [29] At least 334 hostages were killed as a result of the crisis, including 186 children.[30][31] Official reports on how many members of Russia's special forces died in the fighting varied from 11, 12, 16 (7 Alpha and 9 Vega) to more than 20[32] killed. There are only 10 names on the special forces monument in Beslan.[33] The fatalities included all three commanders of the assault group: Colonel Oleg Ilyin, Lieutenant Colonel Dmitry Razumovsky of Vega, and Major Alexander Perov of Alpha.[34] At least 30 commandos suffered serious wounds.[35]

The attack also marked the end to the mass terrorism in the North Caucasus separatist conflict until 2010, when two Dagestani female suicide bombers attacked two railway stations in Russia. After Beslan, there was a period of several years without suicide attacks in and around Chechnya.

Lessons learned FSB Spetsnaz are particularly active. Conducting 119 targeted operations in the North Caucasus in 2006 alone, during which they killed more than 100 leaders of terrorist groups.[36]

By the mid 2000s, the special forces gained a firm upper hand over separatists and terrorist attacks in Russia dwindled, falling from 257 in 2005 to 48 in 2007. Military analyst Vitaly Shlykov praised the effectiveness of Russia's security agencies, saying that the experience learned in Chechnya and Dagestan had been key to the success. In 2008, the American Carnegie Endowment's Foreign Policy magazine named Russia as "the worst place to be a terrorist", particularly highlighting Russia's willingness to prioritize national security over civil rights.[37] By 2010, Russian special forces, led by the FSB, had managed to eliminate the top leadership of the Chechen insurgency, except for Dokka Umarov.[38]

From 2009, the level of terrorism in Russia increased again. Particularly worrisome was the increase in suicide attacks. While between February 2005 and August 2008, no civilians were killed in such attacks, in 2008 at least 17 were killed and in 2009 the number rose to 45.[39] In March 2010, Islamist militants organised the 2010 Moscow Metro bombings, which killed 40 people. One of the two blasts took place at Lubyanka station, near the FSB headquarters. Militant leader Doku Umarov — dubbed "Russia's Osama Bin Laden" — took responsibility for the attacks. In July 2010, President Dmitry Medvedev expanded the FSB's powers in its fight against terrorism.

In 2011, Federal Security Service operators exposed 199 foreign spies, including 41 professional spies and 158 agents employed by foreign intelligence services.[40] The number has risen in recent years: in 2006 the FSB reportedly caught about 27 foreign intelligence officers and 89 foreign agents.[36] Comparing the number of exposed spies historically, the then-FSB Director Nikolay Kovalyov said in 1996: "There has never been such a number of spies arrested by us since the time when German agents were sent in during the years of World War II." The 2011 figure is similar to what was reported in 1995-1996, when around 400 foreign intelligence agents were uncovered during the two-year period.[41]

Anti terrorist operations prior to 2014 Sochi Olympics

Olympic organizers received several threats prior to the Games. In a July 2013 video release, Chechen Islamist commander Dokka Umarov called for attacks on the Games, stating that the Games were being staged "on the bones of many, many Muslims killed ...and buried on our lands extending to the Black Sea."[42] Threats were received from the group Vilayat Dagestan, which had claimed responsibility for the Volgograd bombings under the demands of Umarov, and a number of National Olympic Committees had also received threats via e-mail, threatening that terrorists would kidnap or "blow up" athletes during the Games.

In response to the insurgent threats, Russian special forces began cracking down on suspected terrorist organizations, making several arrests and claiming to have curbed several plots,[43] and killed numerous Islamist leaders including Eldar Magatov, a suspect in attacks on Russian targets and alleged leader of an insurgent group in the Babyurt district of Dagestan.[44] Dokka Umarov himself was killed on 7 September 2013 in a targeted strike.

The operations were a success and the Olympics went down without any major terrorist incident.

2014 intervention in Ukraine

Main article: 2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine

GRU Spetsnaz allegedly took part in the 2014 Crimean crisis, with several hundred members of the GRU 45th Spetsnaz Regiment and the 22nd Spetsnaz brigade sent in, disguised as civilians.[45][46][47][48]

Insurgency in the Caucasus

Although crime has been markedly reduced and stability increased throughout Russia compared to the previous year, about 350 militants in the North Caucasus have been killed in anti-terror operations in the first four months of 2014, according to an announcement by Interior Minister Vladimir Kolokoltsev in the State Duma.[49]

On September 23, 2014, Russian news agencies marked the 15th anniversary of the formation of the Unified Group of Troops (OGV, or ???) in the North Caucasus. The OGV is the inter-service headquarters established at Khankala, Chechnya to command all Russian defense ministry (MOD, MVD, FSB) operations from the start of the second Chechen war in 1999.

Since its inception, the OGV combined operations has conducted 40,000 special missions, destroyed 5,000 bases and caches, confiscated 30,000 weapons, and disarmed 80,000 explosive devices and in the process has killed over 10,000 insurgents in the time frame of 15 years. The Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD) noted that the decoration Hero of the Russian Federation has been awarded to 93 MVD servicemen in the OGV (including 66 posthumously). Overall, more than 23,000 MVD troops have received honors for their conduct during operations.[50]

Russian spetsnaz forces participated in the 2014 Grozny clashes.[51]

Syrian Civil War

Main article: Russian-led military intervention in Syria

Unidentified spetsnaz units are allegedly involved in search and destroy operations, target acquisition for russian ground attack aircraft and special reconnaissance.[52][53]


BE
becsPro4,378 posts
14 Nov 2015, 18:11
#4
14 Nov 2015, 18:11#4
 No we have been more successful over the years, Seb, and all done very quietly. 
Unlike America, we never felt the need to draw attention to ourselves and know the only way to beat a foe is to go in amongst them, on the ground, and assimilate if you have to. Big is not always best !! The SAS have different skills amongst their ranks, even though they all have to be able to do the basics above and beyond.....and, as Wardad attests, be as hard as nails and completely unhinged....ha ha ha ! Some have superlative linguistic skills on top of everything else, more so than other members of the military. 
My Dads friend was devil may care from a little lad and incredibly fit. He always said it was the Army or Prison for him. He had a very successful career in the SAS and did some pretty horrific things, I think. But he did what he was sent to do and, if it is kill or be killed or a hostage situation, I suppose you would want someone with the skill or ability to do what they had to do in that situation. He taught us lots of things as kids ( some things were not advisable !! ) and my eldest brother actually knocked his front teeth out on the climbing frame when he took him out and showed him some moves !! Mother was not best pleased ! Nor was she when he started to show everyone his latest scar.....one of his recruits shot him accidentally in a very painful and highly dangerous area, of male anatomy.....ha ha ha ! Bearing in mind, we were all very young at the time, it wasn't the best idea he ever had, but he just treated us all like his equals !! He'd turn up with a sleeping bag and smother all his food in tomato sauce and then be off again for a good while. Then he became famous as the first man to sail the Atlantic singlehanded and some other feats of endurance, living on Rockall etc, and we saw more of him on the television than at home  But he is still a very fit man, even in his seventies, and can still do forward rolls and would be the man I turned to if I needed a crazy psycho willing to absail into danger and rescue me 
I don't like War, but I recognise there is sometimes no alternative and I always hold anyone in the highest regard who is willing to put their life in jeopardy to keep the likes of us safe. I do not hold the Govts and Leaders in any regard for their constant manipulation/mishandling situations, the way they cause conflict and are never brave enough to stand alongside these people who risk everything for the rest of us. All they do is give them less money/equipment/troops to do their jobs and then take them to court for doing it !! 
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
14 Nov 2015, 19:19
#5
14 Nov 2015, 19:19#5
Dear Becs...nobody has more respect than I for the SAS...great operators and obedient to their superiors cause...military is professionialism with no sentiment and a good soldier or combat man must have no sentiments but conscience and integrity.

We struggle as human beings to separate good from evil because what seems right to us might well be evil and vica versa...the struggle in Eireland in 70's brought pain to me. I love true Ireland and England and it's conflicting paradoxes...I admired Michael Collins in the early conflicts and understood him for independance but much later on I supported Maggie Thatcher in the Falkland saga because, much as I understood the Argentine point of view...I knew that Britians interests were at risk...the world unfortunately is VERY imperfect.

Loyalties are good but they must not be based entirely on this...I support what I deem is right irrespective of sentiment.

I love the Irish, true England, Wales and Scotland as well as the French and especially the Russians...there is no bias in this, perhaps a little sentiment.

All those Special Forces guys are brilliant from England Russia Canada USA Nz Austr and Israel
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