Template to beat the wee All Black forwards- Provided by the Poms

The English and Boks have a similar style of rugby- Big forwards and decent powerful backs. When the English pack is on form they dominate the collisions and control the breakdowns- they are a formidable team- like in the early 2000's and over patches since that time like today.

When New Zealand are blocked at the breakdowns from slowing down possesion, the bigger ball carrying forward packs can beat them. Were it not for the skills of the New Zealand backs they would have scored far less from the limited oppertunities.

Beat New Zealand at the rucks and get strong ball carriers to dominate the collisions and get over the advantage line, and suddenly New Zealands defence has holes all over the place.

The English centres were having a field day. When New Zealand are getting dominated up front and they are on the back foot their defence is not that great. This has happened many times over the years when the boks beat New Zealand. When the pressure is extreme their backline defence falls apart.

The wee New Zealand forward must be beaten in the collisions and clean possesion needs to be maintained at the rucks for quick ball and suddenly New Zealand are very vulnerable. Mccaw was neutralised by the English forwards today who protected their own ball well and cleared out mccaw and co.

Although New Zealand did show how dangerous they are with some excellant quick pace tries. Goes to show with the right mix of loose forwards and tight five the bok can beat them, we just need to protect our own ball and let our bigger and stronger ball carries bash them out of the game, and get our backs into the game after the dam breaks. 

Players like Bismark, Coenie, Schalk burger, Deon Fourie, Flouw are the right type of forwards as they are strong carriers but also excellant at recycling quick possesion from the rucks. 

Congrats to England well deserved win, but funny as when any team beats the AB's bok fans like to claim it as their own. Beaten by a better team on the day, AB's acknowledge this and offer no excuses, unlike the Bok fans who would be crying conspiracy theories and blaming anyone but themselves. Bad day at the office but still number 1 team in the world...it happens.

 Congradulations England! You totally deserve the victory!

 Well said polyboy.

True but it still hurts.

 Very gracious in defeat boys!

I remember 2 years ago when the Wales Defence coach said in the media what the template to beat South Africa was. It really got under my skin, as it did apparently the players.

Thought I would rattle the cage abit! 

Although on a more serious note, I do think the way that England played today was exceptional, and it is also the best way to beat the All Blacks. I do not think the All Blacks played that badly, or that it was a very bad day at the office- rather they played under more pressure than they have been put under the whole year

 ABs totally outplayed today by the Poms.

You have no idea how much it hurts me to say that but no excuses!

Yes I must admit I didn't see that coming was expecting a close game not a thrashing. Well played England that was a totaly deserved victory. 

 The all blacks don't slip often and playin like this next time against them won't guarantee a win. The All Blacks was stuck in an attacking mind set and never allowed themselves time to settle. Huge amount of credit must go to the poms though. What a great game it was worth to watch. They scored one try from broken play, another from a set move and the other from an interception . The all black can be vulnerable when their space is taken away. One thing that stood out for me about the poms is that they actually played with ball in hand and just use simple short passes. What this means is that you have to play with the ball if you want to beat NZ . If the boks can just start to play a bit more with ball in hand I'm sure we can beat NZ next year.

Hey shark bok, when NZ are under pressure the look very average and beatable. England didnt just beat NZ they walloped them and it put a smile on my face and a massive hangover today. But we musnt forget the all blacks had upset tummies LMFAO. They used that excuse once. Doesnt wash this time.

Polyboy this win is englands and englands alone. The reason us saffers are enjoying this mate is because the all blacks were walloped and were shite. Did you see carters face on telly. Looked like his bum had been smacked and was about to cry. WELL DONE ENGLAND FOR THRASHING THE ALL BLEAKS!!!!!!!

Polyboy

Don;t get me wrong - I support any SH team playing against NH sides. 

What worries me about the loss of the All Blacks yesterday is the fact that the All Black forwards were not up to requirement.   There has been frequent signs this year that the forwards are not really that awe-inspiring and the signs were clear - one of which is that they give away too many penalties.   The problem appears to be the players try illegal means to get the upper hand and get caught out in the process.   

The concept that forwards must run and handle the balls like centers looks good on paper - but does not work out in tight situations like happened yesterday.    Without the penalty problem the match would have been much more even.   I hope Hansen does something about it.  

Clevermike,  You make an assumption about the AB forwards based on 1 losing game, wouldn't it be more rational to take a look at their season as a whole where they played 13, lost 1 dew 1 won 11 and make an assumption based on that.  I know what your going to say "the signs were there that this was going to happen" but they lost, they were never going to be unbeaten forever, and every now and then the AB's capitulate....like I said bad day at the office. I could make an assumption about the Boks based on their last game against the AB's but that was that game, your only ever as good as your last game.  And I know Bok2011 has been just been waiting for this day , your much more pleasant on the forum than the vitriolic,crap you posted on the "Hansen Hails England" story, but then again some Bok fans are gracious posters some aren't. Would still have preferred to lose to Boks though than England, but then again don't think I could stand to be on the same Cyber planet with supporters like Bok2011.

polyboy, you bring it on yourself mate. you knickers are obviously in a twist over this. i will admit that the boks are nowhere near good enough at the moment and have a long way to go. but hey we are no.2 at the same time as being very mediocre. you guys on the otherhand are no.1 with your best ever side and fair play. when you are no.1 these is only one way after that, and that is down pal and the english shoved you of your pedistal with a good beating. i am the way i am towards you kiwi's somoanst fijians tongans on this forum because i have been harrased with nothing but abuse from you lot since day one. remember pal this is a south african website welcomed by all. you and your pals like  nuke and the gang are ten times more abusive towards us south africans, even being racist at times, so dont come crying to me when i lap up your miss fortune on the multi national all black side pal.

Polyboy

The assumption I made is based on what happened the whole season.   In every game they played in the All Black forwards gave away a large number of penalties and were often enough on the back foot.   Their backline saved them from losses - not their forwards.   It is not for the star backline performances - the AB's would have been in serious trouble - especially against the Springboks where their forwards struggled in both the games played.   The Springboks had a rubbish backline and that gifted the AB/s victory in both tests..

while i agree the All Blacks backs are almost in a class of their own, it would be silly to think that the forwards havent own any parity and held their own, u dont accumulate 12 wins from 14 games in a season cos of ur backs alone.

there needs to be a balance, but the current laws of the games are very pro attacking, so IMO forwards need to be more mobile then traditionally powerful like the teams of yesteryear. but the Boks have always had that mentality of bigger is better, but u need to only look at the Boks record in the pro era and some of the monster forward packs that they have had to know that it really means bugger all.
they more often then not gain parity against oppoistion forwards and they are definately alot more skillful then any other team ive seen. but with the likes of o franks, romano, woodc0ck and hore, theres pretty of grunt to get the job done and if u dont believe me then just ask the Boks.

what happened against england is what happens when england plays well & the All Blacks dont, but how often do the All Blacks not play well and kick well and lose the breakdowns, and fail to compete on every level??? fudge all thats how often, its why they have only lost 1 game in 14 tests in 2012 and IMO thats not going to happen again any time soon.

Clevermike I think we will beg to differ over this you have your opnion I have mine. There seems to be an assumption that Bok forwards are the template for rugby, big and bulky playing bash football. You seem to think that AB are playing seven a side rugby against 15, by saying its our backline that wins the game. Crap, our forwards still have to win and retain possession in order for the backline to use it. ( I know your going to mention illegalities in here)  It also is disrepectful to say the Springboks gifted the AB the last 2 games, In SA the AB's dismantled the Boks and you mean to tell me that over the last 20 years since your admission that the huge win ratio the AB's enjoy over the Boks has not been because the AB's have been and at the moment are better than the Boks. You know in order to win those games the AB's had to have backs AND forwards earning those wins.

Bok2011  at your invitation its being brought. The fact that you celebrate a English win demonstrates I suppose that your celebrating by proxy but seeing as the AB's have beaten the Boks twice and even spanked your guys in their backyard in front of your home crowd, I'll settle for that cause I can live with 1 loss, 1 draw, 11 win season. By the way what was the Bok record.? And go check out the trophy case before you think of a witty reply. Other kiwi posters  maybe so called racist pricks, but I keep my posts to defending why I support the AB's on this site because the Boks are the traditional foe and respect their rugby but don't paint us all with the same brush. If you have a specific post where I have made racial epitaphs, slurs against any SA fan then please mention it cause I resent being lumped in with racist.

 I have seen All Blacks forward packs much more physical than this one.

This current pack reminds me of John Mitchells team around the 2003 time.

The Sean Fitzpatrick pack of Zinzaan Brooke, Michael Jones and that really good lock whos name escapes were far stronger than the current pack. 

The passing ability of the All Blacks inside backs is what is giving them the points. They are able to create space even with limited front foot ball. 

I think England showed that if you beat the All Blacks at the breakdown- especially ensuring that your own possesion is protected and Mccaw and crew are not able to slow down possesion on the ground, then strong ball carriers can dominate the advantage line. Quick recycled ball from multi-phases and the All Black defence opens up gaps.

The passing ability of the AB inside backs and their ability to find and create space is maybe the best I have seen from the All Blacks and the boks and other teams cant keep up with this skill set. 

The way that the All Blacks scored 2 quick tries against England, was the same as in Soweto against SA earlier this year.

No other team in the world can do this.  I have seen some good Australian backlines like Larkham and co, but none scoring with such ease as the current All Blacks. 

polyboy/Sasu

Ir is clear that we differ on the issue of forward play - I believe in a strong and mobile pack - whilst you place a much higher mark on mobility.   The problem that you apparently ignore is that the mobile pack of the AB's are penalty machines - because they try to overcome their deficiencies by playing borderline rugby.

The sum total is that a team - like the miserable POMS - who lost a series against the Boks and also lost against the Wallabies - beat the All Blacks by dominating up front and by very good defence.    That game will be studied by opposing coaches and will form a basis for utilization of techniques in future games against the All Blacks.  

The game also exposed some real weaknesses starkly.   Pressure on Aaron Smith exposed some weaknesses on his part and confirm the doubts about Conrad Smith's ability to defend.

to be fair the AB had a lot of off the field issues with a rampant stomach bug ext but the poms went out to attack certain areas like the forwards and the rucks they did it very well and executed very well.

that being said if the AB on the day did not have all this issues it might have been a different ball game. the AB forwards did not match up A much.

@mike i agree with you on the issue regards to a forward pack. the forward pack in my view needs to still be able to slip between being mobile and still have the strong mongrel feel to it. that is why its so important to have a balance of more agile players and big strong burly ball carriers. being lobsided in either of the departments will lead to either the pack being to slow to be effiective or too light in the tight exchanges.

the AB pack is build for high intensity up tempo rugby so in that lays there biggest strength and can be exploited. the poms really retained the ball very well and attack the AB where most teams tend to try to outkick them or just give up the ball to there attack. which is the biggest mistake that one can make is to just give them the ball.

the AB did not get that type of momentum that they get per default at the ruck and that really upset there pattern and playing abilty

@clevermike,

i believe in a strong mobile pack too, what i disagree with is saying that the All Blacks are mobile BUT not strong. i dont think the All Blacks have the best forward pack in the world, but i do think they work better as team then any other pack out there. the synergy they have let them compete against every team in nearly every facet of forward play. mobilty is very big in the All Blcks master plan.

take nothing away from the poms well deserved win, but their win was an anomoly, something that happens very rarely, but when u do beat the All Blacks, theres a reason why it is the talk of the rugby circles world wide. its why beating the All Blacks is hailed as the best achievement outside of the RWC, cos it is the hardest thing to do, its also why the UK media are now hailing the english as the world champions, but whatever. O_o

in order to beat the All blacks u almost need the stars to allign to ur cause, eng had their best game of the year both physically & tactically, while the All Blacks had their worst, which included worst perofrmances of their career from our usual go to guys like aaron smith, carter, conrad smith. how often do players have their worst game of the season & continued to get picked??? not very long IMO, but i consider it a one off and too much is being read into englands win. if u dont believe me, wait till this time next year, cos the All Blacks last loss before neg was to the wallabies and that sparked a 20 game unbeaten streak run which netted us the RWC and a clean sweep in the IRC where not one team including the rank No2 & 3 teams could even get a single championship point.
one must wonder what will happen in 2013 after this loss??? im quitely confident as usual that the All Blacks will dominate next year like they did this year.

@clevermike,

i believe in a strong mobile pack too, what i disagree with is saying that the All Blacks are mobile BUT not strong. i dont think the All Blacks have the best forward pack in the world, but i do think they work better as team then any other pack out there. the synergy they have let them compete against every team in nearly every facet of forward play. mobilty is very big in the All Blcks master plan.

take nothing away from the poms well deserved win, but their win was an anomoly, something that happens very rarely, but when u do beat the All Blacks, theres a reason why it is the talk of the rugby circles world wide. its why beating the All Blacks is hailed as the best achievement outside of the RWC, cos it is the hardest thing to do, its also why the UK media are now hailing the english as the world champions, but whatever. O_o

in order to beat the All blacks u almost need the stars to allign to ur cause, eng had their best game of the year both physically & tactically, while the All Blacks had their worst, which included worst perofrmances of their career from our usual go to guys like aaron smith, carter, conrad smith. how often do players have their worst game of the season & continued to get picked??? not very long IMO, but i consider it a one off and too much is being read into englands win. if u dont believe me, wait till this time next year, cos the All Blacks last loss before neg was to the wallabies and that sparked a 20 game unbeaten streak run which netted us the RWC and a clean sweep in the IRC where not one team including the rank No2 & 3 teams could even get a single championship point.
one must wonder what will happen in 2013 after this loss??? im quitely confident as usual that the All Blacks will dominate next year like they did this year.

Sasue

Though I in the main agree with you about issues - I must admit that McCaw remains as the strong point amongst the All Black forwards - Reid definitely is good as well.

If I can select a combined forwards team from the Springboks and All Blacks - there would only be the above two players that would feature in such a combined forward pack.     The rest of the pack is just not up to standard.

Lets look at the different positions in the team forwards:-

   *  No 8     -      Reid        -       Vermeulen

   *  Flanks     -  McCaw and Louw

   *  Locks     -   Etzebeth and Bekker

  *   Props     -   Beast and Du Plessis 

  *   Hooker  -    Du Plessis

Of the All Black forwards I think that -

  *   Messam is a good Super `15 player - but questionable on test level;

  *   Whitelock and Romero are above average locks - whilst  Retallick is sub-standard;

  *   Franks is a good prop - nothing else to write home about;

  *   There are no New Zealand hookers that really impress me ar all.

I would be very worried about the chances of the All Blacks beating the Springboks in the Championship if I was you.   In the EOYT  the All Blacks had an easy ride against weaker teams and when they came up against the POMS they failed rather badly - their forwards failed badly and that could be the main problem next year.

The All Blacks main benefit would be if  Meyer fouls up again insofar as selections are concerned and that he keeps his hopeless assistant - coach setup in place.     

Clevermike, agree in part with your forward picks except at prop, Beast is past his use by date and Bismark is no where near the form he had last year, where Meleamu has stood up to 100 caps. Again I think your cherry picking in the hope that the AB loss means that they are on the way down. Yes the Boks beat the English as did the Wallabies but neither team beat the AB's and have worst 2012 season records, if we go purely off 2012 records you don't have a leg to stand on. The Boks have lost in past to teams like Scotland, lost regularly to Ireland and have a loss to Wales, so does that mean the Boks are were a bad team, yet they remain #2 in world. Your last paragraph again shows that you have no respect for NZ as a winning rugby nation, and rather that their wins were purely by luck or coc-ups by the Bok coaches. Again you totally ignore history, have the boks had 20 yrs of bad coaches, inadequate players or the AB's just been better. You can keep harping on like the Mayans the "doom and Gloom" prophecy but guarentee this loss will go in the bank and be motivation for further games, it's the Boks I think who need to be wary, cause if there is one thing the AB's excel at its adapting its game esp. after a loss.

polyboy

Sorry - that last sentence was a jibe against Meyer and his selection strategy - but poorly put.  The word "only" is out of place and shpould never have been included.

I am genuinely worried about rugby in general and am effectively an AB supporter - after all they are the number 1 rugby team in the world and give all rugby lovers something to admire.However, I am also somerimes the worst critic of players and teams - as you may have notied what I wrote about the Springbok team.

Please don't get me wrong - what I wrote basicallly amounts to some potential problems as to the All Black team that must be thought about and attended to as I see things.  

I grant you that Du Plessis played in only a  few tests this year due to injury - but my second hooker choice would be Strauss ahead of Meleamu or Hore for that matter.

www.youtube.com/watch

 www.youtube.com/watch just have the look at how farrel hit the line and the speed of pass that created the space for barrit. barrit hit the pass with speed and ran into the space

englands mentality and approach was the biggest decider. they moved the ball into space and ran at the AB. the rucks was won by the english and the AB was on the backfoot.

the english did not try to outkick them but they outrun them.

CM, the Eng/SA and the Eng/NZ games were indeed contrasting but at the same time similar in some ways.

England's kicks from hand were the same in both games, even though they played different halfback combinations. Twenty nine kicks in both games. SA and NZ did not kick the ball considerably more though. SA kicked 33 times and NZ 31 times. The differences did come in the running game though, and I might be mistaken but I think it might well be because of our defence as well as the fact that they had more possession than in the game against us. Here is the catch though. The did not outrun them in that they ran more against them. They probably ran with more commitment against NZ and more effectively, but they ran less against NZ than what they did against us.

Against us the ran gained 433 metres with ball in hand, and from 119 runs. Against NZ they gained 446 from 91 runs. Their clean breaks were the same in both games, i.e. 5. Aginst us they beat the defenders 15 tims and 18 times against NZ.

Have a look at the match stats from the two games:

www.espnscrum.com/south-africa-tour-2012/rugby/match/153976.html

www.espnscrum.com/new-zealand-tour-2012/rugby/match/153977.html

if you look at the target areas they attacked 5 to 10 meters away from the ruck and the ruck speed was far greater than against us. against us they kept it closer to the point of contact but they did not run of the ball so quickly like they did.

they had more speed and width on attack and that was there biggest strong suite. the AB after there virus doing the rounds looked jaded but they still managed to at least compete.

Mike I am glad you have finally come to see the ab weaknes at forward. Hence my contention that this is NOT a great side - also for the other many reason mentioned before.

The kiwis can bleat on about the lack of respect from some posters but they had better heed the warning signs. 

As for always supporting every SH side. Nope the abs are the exception and until the they clean up their act no support whatsoever from me. In fact I cant think of a single time when I will support the abs. The BL saga was the very last straw.

The Kiwis fans here are great guys but to me nz rugby ethics suck big time. The warm feeling re the abs have long gone. Hence I really enjoyed the Poms comprehensive win and was supporting them all the way.
 

Sorry but until we get straight refs from NZ and no more mcaaaws (alias mccheat) nothing will make me respect nz rugby. Their get the yarpie campaign does not endear them to me either. Plonkers like Naas should wake up and smell the pong!  

Muncher mcaaaw said the virus did not efffect them. The abs were in fact playing some of their best rugby of the match at the end of the game. So would all ab apologists drop that one. Thanks.

Beeno very jaundiced by abs approach to the game. Fair go mate.

Beeno

You are wrong here - I have been a constant critic of the New Zealand play over the last 5 months - ask Sasue about the long debates we had about that one.   I always maintained that the pack is too old and that McCaw is showing signs of decline compared to his play two years ago.   I have been constant in the relevant regard over a perios of time and what I said above is nothing new.

It is not the mistake of the All Blacks that Bryce Lawrence buggered up.   I have been constant about one issue - I support the Springboks - and in their absence any SH team against any NH team.   I support the Argentinians against ant NH team as well.   Some people may like it - others won't.   This turnaround resulted from the test a few years ago - when I met some Aussies  (all wearing Springbok attire) in the beer tent after a test between SA and Scotland at Murrayfield.   There were also some New Zealanders doing the same.   Just one question - if they do it in Springboks games - why should we not respond in kind?

Incidentally that test on 27 November 2004  was won by the Springboks who struggled against the Scots up till half time and let 6-3.   The worst player (you won't believe it - but it was Fourie Du Preez)  was replaced at halftime and afterwards the Springboks played like real champions and won by 45-10.  

Beeno1, if the AB's had not lost it would not have given you anything to hang your hat on. Like I said Bok fans have been praying for the AB's to lose because it gives them an opportunity to say "I told you so" based on one game. You ignore the 11 wins and judge the AB's on 1 game, but then again I shouldn't be surprised because it seems most things kiwi irk you so realise the AB's and kiwi's will never get a fair shake of the stick fom someone like you but it's always entertaining to read your skewed comments. With Lawrence I can understand the venom, McCaw is loved by the media and wider rugby public so your remarks seem to stem more from jealously, that Boks are unable to produce a player of his caliber.  The fact that you support a NH team playing the AB's really shows your distaste for all things AB,(I really thought SH fans supported each other when playing England) but hey like I said your entitled to your opinion, but seeing as the AB's are going to remain number 1, and their trophy case is bulging with everything the Boks want I suppose we face a few more decades of Beenorisms.

Lets take a look at some of the AB's wins this year.

2nd test vs Ireland - Should have lost. Ireland saved all their courage for this one and they were spent for the last test but the fact is, that very average Irish team almost went over the top of AB in their back yard.

Aus in championship opener - Aus were absolutely pathetic yet they finished within 5 points...

Aus return match in NZL - 2 tries against an excuse for an Aussie team (SA put more tries against Aus in 1 game than you did in 3 this year)

Aus in 3rd test - draw - not even a solitary try from this "awesome" attacking team

SA in Dunedin - ha ha we can go on all day but we only have Morne Steyn to thank for not handing NZ their first loss (hammering actually) at the new Forsyth Barr stadium in Dunedin

SA in SA - What can you expect when Elton Janjties plays more than 2 mins. Attacking from 10 metres behind the advantage line is never going to get you on the front foot. Pat Lambie to replace Goosen that day and things might have been so different as when Goosen was on (similar player to Lambie but Lambie is better imo) SA were dominating. We went flat when Elton took over as he was out of his depth!

Argies in Wellington - Argies cant play with the stadium lights off guys but nice touch to halt the momentum ;-)

That is 7 games right there out of the 14 where NZL were not in control of their destiny. As fate would have it, they creeped out with the win. Much like the WC where fate came in the name of bryce lawrence. As the kiwi's would say, "bryce, good on ya mate!" ;-)

 Logic, have you and reality ever crossed paths? I wouldn't think so.....

Mike I dont necessarily blame the ab players themselves re BL as looke to be a NRFU job 0They coul dno tbea r not to win the WC at home in nz - desparation) as was their honouring the guy after  the job on the Boks was done. I dont honou rmccaaaw becasue of his illegal play..Neither do I accept that as yarpies we deserve to be blown out of games by bent down under refs who often show a nauseating bias against our sides.

Normally one would support other SH sides, However in the circumstance it is impossible to support nz. How can you support  nz when they stab us in the back? Seriously think about that. Naas being all gleeful re the abs wining the wc seeing it wasnt us made me want to puke! Then there was our own Craig handing the abs a world cup win and denying France -  the decidedly better team on the day - it was disgusting to putit mildly.

Kick us some more some bok fans ask the the NZRU and we will love you all the more. Its sick really.

No nz must clean up their act and things can go back to how they should be - an honourable rivalry. The NZRU nees to offer an apolgy to the Boks re BL. That could be a start. Then they must clean up their ref side of things and their play on the field.

Excellent sumation Boklogic.  My assssment is that they abs have been a good team, above average etc but I would not go as far as to call them a great side for all the valid reasons I and Boklogic mentioned.

End of story

As I have mentioned in past but always conveniently ignore by SA fans. SA has never been short of a bias ref. As When AB toured SA prior to neutral refs and they would tell you in test matches in SA with SA refs they were playing against 16 not 15. 1976 series being the most obvious. Probably accounts for why it was so dificult to win a series in  SA prior to readmiitance. Funnily when neutral refs now used the AB have dominated....coincidence or a return to rugby cosmic balance. But hey we let 1976 go in 1976, continuing to blame Bryce Lawrence for a Bok loss still....is just  looking for someone to blame for the bok loss...if anything they have been playing to the same consistency since the RWC.

Since there is nothing much else going on worth discussing - we are - thanks to Beeno - back to the seemingly endless debate on referees.   There were very good reasons for the introduction of a system of neutral referees - since in the main the referees from ALL COUNTRIES were often biased in favour of their countries of origin.     It is useless to argue otherwise - it was so in the case of the Springboks and it was so in the case of the All Blacks.  

The introduction of neutral referees in the main was supposed to solve the issue of bias and to a substantial extent it did happen.   What it did not solve was the issue of INCOMPETENT referees.    Referees are human and like all humans do make mistakes.   However, the term incompetence has a wider implication - one or two refereeing errors do not normally has an impact on outcome of games - but constant errors throughout games can really influence outcomes.

There can be no argument about the fact that Bryce Lawrence was an incompetent referee - so much so that he was removed from the IRB panel.   That was not the first time it happened and would certainly not be the last time.

We can  talk and debate this issue endlessly and becuase it relates to the past - we are going to get nowhere in this case.   So why not bury the hatchet and rather look at the future.   There will again be cases of incomptenet referees and we then can concentrate on those referees and will be able to have another debate - at this stage it is a looong YAWN. 

Well said Clevermike, must admit replying was a "Beeno reflex" I should know better was pretty bored now no international rugby. As far as I'm concerned dead and buried. Onward to a new banter.

polyboy

Not to worry - my friend.   In two months time we will go hammer and tongs about Super 15 - so a bit of dullness gives me the time to clean up some essential wotk I have to do and at the same time concentrate on  cricket.  

The New Zealand cricket team will be here in two weeks time - and I am afraid is in for an extremely hard time.   SA is still the World no 1 test side and can also go back to the top in ODI.s and Twenty 20 cricket if we beat New Zealand and Pakistan in the next three months - that is very likely since both series are being played in SA.   Insofar as cricket tests are concerned we have not lost a single series away from home for 8 years - which in fact is also a record.

all right sharkbait, NZ cant win every test thats just crazy, we do lose now and then. England pulled one out there  ass wont change anything they lost the 6 test before that. AB did have one of those games that just dont work out. Hey England had a good win, good on them but cant see them making the RWC final just yet its 3 friggan tears away anything can and will happen before then. Boks need to win more before going into detail of how to beat the All Blacks prove it first.

Clevermike hate to admit it but I loathe cricket, maybe the only NZer who does but has never appealed to me. But still know enough to say probably because our cricket team has always sucked as far back as I can remember, shallow I know if your not winning or even win occasionally can't be bothered. Or it may be tha tbecause its non-contact.