The Bok loosie incumbents

.....are clearly Louw, Vermeulen and Alberts. Each has the horse power to contribute at  test level. Louw changed our fortunes when Meyer shrewdly called on him.

As a trio there is a bit of a balance issue.....none of these guys are great lineout options and none of them are wide ranging cover defenders. But they add so much hard work, that it mostly offsets that.

Schalk is a better link player than Alberts and a more productive defender. If Schalk is to return he will have to lift Alberts. Spies will obviously have to remove Vermeulen, but that's hard to imagine unless Vermeulen's vulnerable back causes issues.

With 5 seasoned loosies like this, it's hard to imagine Coetzee will play a role beyond the bench.

Given the average performances of the Boks in 2012, none of the incumbents can be assured of retaining their places post the S15. I rate all 3 incumbents and cant see a way back for the likes of Spies and Burger.

I see plenty in Brussouw, Kolisi, Elstadt, Coetzee, Arno Botha and CJ Stander.............. these players have potentially more to offer than the incumbents and could easily work their way into the starting 15.

 I think Vermeulen is pretty good in the lineout, but Louw and Alberts are non existant in the Lineout.

Also I agree that Louw, did change the Springbok fortunes as a specialist open sider(fetcher). However I think this also co-incided with Vermuelen entering the picture. 

Vermuelen is a very strong all rounder from what I have seen. He has been exceptional at the Stormers for a few years, and improved with allmost each game playing for the boks to eventually get man of the match against the English at Twickenham. Vermuelen is good on the ground, he is a strong carrier and he is a good tackler. So Louw was exceptional and I feel Vermuelen  was initially also the unsung hero.

I think these 2 must be the form starters. 

Alberts started strong against the English but faided as the Season went on.

If Schalk gets back to his best form my loose forward combination would be-

6. Louw

7. Schalk

8. Vermuelen

(Although this is subject to change based on SuperXV form).

 On the Bench would be Coetzee, and maybe have Alberts cover Lock(enforcer) and loose forward.

As for Donkey Potgieter from the Bulls and Spies, I just do not think they are good enough- although Meyers contract with the Bulls to field a quota of their players may differ in opinion

Sorry bringing Schalk back is a backwards step much like retaining Jean is or bringing back the likes of Steenkamp and CJ

The loosetrio I would like to see challenging is 6. Kolisi 7. Elstadt 8. Coetzee, but then again 6. Brussouw 7. CJ Stander 8. A.Botha are pretty handy as well.

We have plenty of depth amongst the loosies

May I add something to the debate.   First of all I do not have problems with the present loosies.   Akverts is a bit on the slow side - and has constantly been subbed by Coetzee - probably the best defeder of the four playes, with Coetzee being more speedy than the others,

Insofar as Burger is concerned - he has been totally out of rugby for 16 months.   In that period he played in one match for 15 minutes before injury ruled him out of rugby up to the start of the coming season.  In essence the absence of a year indicates a very serious injury that could impact on his performances.   Before comment on his selection one has to see whether he in fact can contnue as a Springbok loosie, No selection on reputation please.

I have stated in the past that all players will in Super 14 prove that they are selectable - that applies to loosies as well,   We do not know what the outcome of the acid test for selection - namely top class performances in Super 15 - will produce. There may be more players coming through that is suitable for selection as top class candidates.     

For me Schalk Burger is still an option-, As long as any player is within age for the next World Cup, he can be considered.

Schalk turns 30 this year, and 32 in 2015. If his form is the best and has the best stats (quantitative and qualitative), then he should be in team. Mccaw is 31 and he is still the most influentual All Black.

Replacing him with a no name brand Kolisi has no purpose. A player has to have better performance stats(quality and quantity) to replace incumbents. Just being younger is not enough, especially when the incumbent was much better at the same age.

Age means nothing if a player is the best in his position.

Although in 2016, Schalk will be 33. Then it is time to go overseas to get his pension pay cheque as he will not be in the frame for the 2019 World Cup.

 Brussouw is finished (is does not matter if he is 3 year 2 year 7 years etc lower than the incumbent, his body is that of a 40 year old. He is buggered, his body cant taken the demands at the top level. As he starts to get into good form, he gets injured.

 Sharkbok  I agree with your take on Schalk. He has been a great player from the start. Provided the knee is fully functional I have no doubt Schalk will be a factor all the way through RWC15. 

Sharkbok

I must agree with you about the issue of Burger and Kolisi, as well as Brussouw.   I wrote above that Burger can come into the picture provided he can still perform on the same high level he did in the past.   He will most likely replace Alberts in such an event.

Insofar as Brussouw is concerned - he due to injuries - had a very poor year for the Cheetahs in 2012.   As you rightly said he gets to a stage where his performances become credible and than is injured again.   I do not think he hs really been considered seriously as an option and is likely that Louw will continue in that position with Coetzee as the bck-up.

Kolisi is an interesting case.   Due to injuries amongst their loosies the Stormers selected him as a loosie.   He started off like a house on fire and looked extremely promising.   However, as the season got on there was a noticeable decline in performances and by the time of his injury was satisfactory - nothing more,   Saffex gave one look at his earlier performances and he was suddenly a candidate for Springbok selection.   I don't like to look at one or two match wonders and base selection on that basis.   I believe in sustained performances over a reasonable period even before selection could become a possibility.

I was disappointed about the Bulls handling of Stander - he was always a real candidate for future selection - but he left because he could not make the Bulls line-up on a regular basis and they did nothing to try and retain his services.   He is promising - but out of future contention unless the wheels really come off.  

Botha is a youngster with much promise - but has virtually no playing time outside of the Under 21 Bulls team.   Like what I saw o him - but he will not really make it unless he plays and performs well on Super 15 level.   Question is - will the Bulls use him on that level in Super 15 this year or even next year?   Their prime candidates are Spies and the Potgieters and they have never appreciated good talent.  

Finally - I am wide open to change my mind on players if they have real top performances for their franchises in Super 15 this year - provided that performances must be consistantly on high level.

Brussouw has no hop eof unseating a fi tLouw.

Burger will be in the mix if fit. Obviously he has to prove he is fit.

Wha tamazes me is that folk still think you rloose trio playing england at twicks has to be the sam ewhen palying say the abs at Loftus.

At Loftus I woud like to see perhaps Louw, COetzee (8) and Burger/Vermulen. Speed it up a bit.  The show pony abs love hard fas tfileds and her ewe need t oadd a bit o fpac eto the loos etrio. Coetzzee would make a grea tcovering 8th man. H ehas plenty o fpace. Burger i sall ove rthe file dfo r80 minutes. It would however be hard to drop the very good Vermuelen if playing at Loftus! (I would be happy with Louw, Coetzee and Vermuelen (7)) Burger has a fight on his hands but he is an all time great so dont bet too much against him succeeding.

As someone mentioned the only probelm our incumbents have is speed, none of them are the fastest guys around. Regarding the linout options, I don't really buy it, both alberts and Vermeulen are good enough lineout options.

There will be a mighty battle thins year, but due to the fact that we have such a big variety in loose forwards No one can realistically say who is going to come out on top.

We don't know how the layoff has influenced Burger?

We don't know if Smith is really back or not?

there are a bunch of new kids on the block. I would like to see how Adongo at the kings does, if he gets gametime. He is a monster of a physical speciment, with some ball sense, and alot of pace, however no final verdict yet.

Another one I really would like to keep my eye on is Arno Botha, I think he will be a better option at 8 for the bulls than Spies, Spies might want to move to 7, just a thought.

Would a player like Deon Fourie stand a chance for bok selection?I thought he was great last season as a fetcher and a bit unlucky not to make the eoyt

Dan Dan I would like to see him get a shot. He is the best attacking loosie we have. With a powerful tight five and big loosies like Alberts Vermuelen etc etc we can afford a smaller guy who is amongst the best in the world at 6.  If you really want to run the ball how about Fourie, Coetzee (8) and Burger at 7.

We need the right loose trio for the opponents we face and the conditions and how we plan to play.  One size does not fit all cases surely?

wow Beeno, never thought I would see this day.

You jumping of the Beeno Powerpack?

no worries though, A wise man has the ability to change his mind:)

Schalk and Spies are done, they have added very little for some time now, the new generation of loosies we have coming through have far more to offer.

Give me Kolisi, Botha and Coetzee over Schalk and Spies anyday. Spies has no mongrel and Schalk just targets defenders and does not have the physicality to knock them out the way like Alberts or Elstadt do.

Forget all the Stompies and Bulls showponies, Meyer should stick with the Sharks loosies, finish and klaar.

Ryan Kankowski and Keegan Daniel are the two best #8s in the country, Willem Alberts is the best #7 and Marcell Coetzee is our best #6. I'd go even further and say Keegan Daniel can also cover #6, so can Jacques Botes while Jean Deysel covers #7.

Kanko, Daniel, Alberts, Marcell, Botes and Deysel . . . there's your starting loosies, your bench and your backup.

Vermeulen is ordinary at best, Spies never came close to his potential (and never will), Louw is flou, Burger is an injury-prone has-been and a yellow card liability, Smith is permanently crocked while Kolisi and A Botha are unproven. Heinrich Brussow is the only other loosie who should even be mentioned in the same breath as the Sharks back-rowers.

Nope not really Ek the power tight five remains and on the fast highveldt fields I consider adding in one fast loosie. This Is not a new thought from me EK. I have been saying for years we can think of tweaking the loose trio according to the factors I mentioned. The other side of the equation is where your tight five struggles you bolster them with big physical loosies

I wonder if the Stormers will try Fourie, Vermuelen and Schalk as a trio. We have a lot of options. One thing is definite Deon is way ahead of Kolisi from what we saw last year.

Spies is as done as his mind is not right. Can he be fixed mentally?

Burger last time we saw him was SA Rugby player of the year 2011. We have to see how he goes but at 29 is not done because of age. We shall how he goes - Keep an  open mind snapster you are jumping to conclusions here.

Just teasing you a bit Beeno :)

As i said we don't know what burger can bring to the table we haven't seen him in a while and we don't know how rusty he is.

Secondly what does bother me about Burger is his age, you say at 29 he is still okay, but all of us olfder than 30 know that once you hit that mark your body really starts telling you. Hopefully he still lasts but it is a fact that he will be more injury prone the older he gets.

Burger has had 1 year off so the body has had time to heal from all the niggles. Has his knee healed - w e shall see.

One thing for sure is tha tBurger has more stamina than just about anybody I can recall seeing play. Provided his knee has healed he is a better prospect than mcaaw. 2 year younger and fresh. World class players are not summarily dumped. snapster hs no evidence whatsoever for wanting to dump him - and bringing in Kolisi nogal!

If his comeback is unsuccessufl or if he is just not quite the same player we will have to accept that. Wher he will play is als oanother question.

What  bunch of loose forwards we have: Burger, Vemuelen Elstadt, Rhodes, Kolisi, Fourie and Carr.

:) Just making sure you are willing to accept that :)

Ek my reputation for realism is legendary!

Wonder how Federer is going. No results yet so its probably going to be a 4 or 5 setter.

Rooitwit is quite so his reserch is clearly not bearing any fruit. He should just throw in the towell. His whole world view is shattered.

Who is this Federer oke you are referring to?

Will he be playing for the stormers this year?

Well, no EK, Federer has been signed by one of the French giants, Toulon; and are still looking to sign any SA man, no experience required!  

well louw has decided to stay at bath despite SA rugby trying to get him to play in south africa and thus for me he does not deserve to play for the boks if he is not in the country. vermeulen has in my view been a pillar of strength and has given his best when he is played. nothing flash but just consistent rugby. what more do you want from a ball carrier at 8th man. alberts has been his human wrecking ball self but seems to enjoy NZ and the poms games more like most afrikaans blokes he tends to get more stuck into the english basterds and the AB is always a massive game.

@beeno you should really turn back you finding nemo like attention span and have a look back a few years when brussouw benched louw and schalk burger with this play. in terms of talent and pure fetching ablity he knows on equal.

to me the best blind sider still not even on this post is juan smith. to me he is our rugby captain for the next rwc and if he has recovered 100% should really be in the side for his captain ablity. one can see how the cheetahs are lifted to another level when he is on the pitch. a real players captain much like john smit.

but louw should not be picked as he is based overseas. that status quo should never change. brussouw will destroy him on any given game day. thats fact not fiction

Can't say I was too impressed with Coetzee's covering against Juan de Jong.  But more crucially he got a lot of chances and was less and less of a factor as the 4N progressed. A  smart player who gives his all, but unless I'm mistaken, lacking the strength and or pace to really impact at test level.

Mozart

I beg to differ from you on the Coetzee issue and the De Jongh try.   In my recollection he played at 6 and was in fact on the other side of the scrum than where De Jongh went through.   The players that should have covered in defence were Alberts and Daniel - since the primary roll pf Coetzee was to cover on the off side of the scrum - not the on side.   He tried to get back to make a tackle - but by then De Jongh was already past Daniel.

Be it as it may - I do not think that Coetzee faded out as you indicated.   He came on in all three EOYT tests and made more tackles in the later stages of the tests than any other player - that was when the Springboks were desperately defending there dismal lead in the tests.   That lead in the irish and Scottish tests should have been much higher - hence my "dismal" comment.   If you look at the defensive contribution made by him - we could have easily lost all three the tests if he was not around.

The Stormers are a bit spoilt for choice in the loosie area,the only issue i have with them is who is gonna play where?and will they use a type of rotation system or not.I mean there is Schalk,Kolisi,Vemuelen,Elstadt,Fourie,Carr.I think Fourie could be used at hooker with Tiaan and skarra are injured but then where does Elstadt fit in cz im thinking they will opt for 6.Burger 7.Kolisi 8.Vemuelen and its not like he will make it at lock with Etsabeth and Bekker there!I think the Stormers could be the team to beat this year.

Also really excited to see how Brussow goes this year,i know a lot of people have written him off,but when he was in his prime only Pocock and Mccaw could match up to him,and that ability does not just disappear!

I dont usually like to bring up this player because of all the negative comments that usually appear,but im going to be watching Luke Watson pretty close,he might be a massive prick but theres no denying he a good player,its gonna be interesting to see him at super level again this year!

dan dan+

As far as I am concerned - names do not come into the picture.   Basically I believe that selection should be made on two basic principles only -

*  the sustained perfoirmances on the required high level is the main thing and make up 80% of reqwuirement; and

*  the remining 20% is for the potential and actual merging of the highest performanes into the broader team context and game plan.

Thelatter requirement can change because of the nature of the oppositions - the former remains an absolute norm that cannot change.

That is why I say there should be no player to be regarded as irreplaceable and there iis no player whose selection should be automatic on the basis of his achievements over the past years. 

If selections are not based on the above two criteria - there is every chance that the outcome would not be what we desire most - winning performances.    Insofae as names mentioned by you are concerned I would have no problem with the selection if Watson meets the criteria and he is the best player as a loosie.  The same appies to any other player - loose forwards as well.

That is why I think the coming Super 15 series is so important - it will give players an opportunity to "sell themselves" as top players to be considered for selection - snd simultaneously identify weaknesses that needs to be attended to.    .

dan dan+

As far as I am concerned - names do not come into the picture.   Basically I believe that selection should be made on two basic principles only -

*  the sustained perfoirmances on the required high level is the main thing and make up 80% of reqwuirement; and

*  the remining 20% is for the potential and actual merging of the highest performanes into the broader team context and game plan.

Thelatter requirement can change because of the nature of the oppositions - the former remains an absolute norm that cannot change.

That is why I say there should be no player to be regarded as irreplaceable and there iis no player whose selection should be automatic on the basis of his achievements over the past years. 

If selections are not based on the above two criteria - there is every chance that the outcome would not be what we desire most - winning performances.    Insofae as names mentioned by you are concerned I would have no problem with the selection if Watson meets the criteria and he is the best player as a loosie.  The same appies to any other player - loose forwards as well.

That is why I think the coming Super 15 series is so important - it will give players an opportunity to "sell themselves" as top players to be considered for selection - snd simultaneously identify weaknesses that need to be attended to.    .

What crap, Coetzee had little of a role to play in de Jongh's try - typical Moffie fabrication.

Coetzee is far quicker than any of the Bok incumbent loosies and has shown better ball skills leading up to his test inclusion. What caught the eye was the fact that he ran well, looked to attack defenders with good speed and swerve, it set him appart.

Coetzee should never have been dropped to the bench and nor should he ever have played 6 - two further mistakes by Meyer. The young loosies coming through are better prospects than the incumbents and the likes of Schalk at the same age. Give me Kolisi over Schalk anyday.

@saffex,

agree completely on coetzee, IMO he was the Boks best looseforward last year, tremndous workrate on both attack and defnece and he showed it in every game that he played.
i also agree about coetzee being the fastest looseforward, he also looks the fittest IMO, that workrate he produced last year has him being a better blinside flanker than an openside. i dont like the talks of him as a number 8 though, but it would be a bonus having him attack of the back of the scrum. maybe he could slot in at 8 when the Boks have an attcking scrum and back to the side when they have a defensive scrum, that is the best way to utilize his speed of the mark.

imagine what a kind of a mean combo coetzee and strander would have made, wioht vermeulen at 8 and alberts of the bench, thats a mean combo initself.

dont agree with ur comments on burger though, i reckon provided he is fit and playing close to the performances he was delivering in 2009 & 2010, he could still add a lot of value to his teams.

Judging on last years form only - and that is without players like Burger  would pick different loosies deppending on the opposing team that we play against.

Against the All Blacks, Wallabies, French, Irish and Scots:

6   Louw

7   Coetzee

8   Vermeulen

Against England and Argentina

6   Louw

7   Alberts or Elstadt

8   Vermeulen

However, there is many a slip between the cups and the lip and we will have to wait ans see  how things shape up in the coming year.

Saffex

I would take Mozart's comments on Coetzee with a pinch of salt - as they are obviously biased.  Mozart just sees nothing good in any younger players - according to him we must use the elderly and everything will be OK -in other words selection should be based on experience irrespective of performances.   That is why he so strongly supported the selection of useless players like Morne Steyn, Van der Linde and De Jongh.  

I have no problem with the idea that people write what they think on this Board - but some comments are ridiculous and hence extremely controversial.   

Careful now Dumpy Dave, your master RooiAAS says:

"Marcell Coetzee is our best #6."  And you say Meyer made a mistake playing him at 6. Is your leader also a fool? He likes de Jongh as well. You better get in line.

Mike stop interpreting my motivation. I was perfectly happy with Coetzee's selection. He was one of my 5 test calibre youngsters at the start of the test season....along with Etzebeth, Goosen, Kitshoff and Jordaan. But Coetzee was dropped for a reason. Not just because Meyer was biased and our game picked up immediately with the arrival of Louw.

And by the way Dumpy Dave, check out de the Jongh try again, both Daniel and Coetzee had a good shot at him.

KKK get this into your stupid fat head, I dont care who rates player A or B or where someone thinks a player should play.

Coetzee is not an openside flanker, he is a blindside or 8

de Jongh is a nice little rugby player who will NEVER make it at test level for he is not physically up to it - FACT

As for de Jongh's try, bullshit Coetzee had no hand in it. de Jongh ran a good angle off the ball, handed off Daniel and stepped Movo's cross cover at pace. Your typical fabrication has Coetzee involved, he was close by but had not chance of effecting a tackle - its your usual bullshit to fit your anti a particular player.

At first you were all pro Coetzee but then you took on your usual guise and started telling us that all he could do was tackle - as uninformed and off the mark as usual. Same clown who told us how good Adi was and how poor Fourie is and you expect us to take your rugby points seriously.

Mozart

You no doubt see that I am perfectly happy about the Louw selection as indicated and the loosies if selected on last years form.

As to the De Jongh try - Coetzee was on the other side of the scrum from where De Jongh went through and his primary task was to defend that side - when he saw where the ball went to he tried to get over to cover the defence - which primarily was the function of the 7 and 8 - but could not get in place to tackle De Jongh.   He had really a zero roll in defence on the relevent  side and was never ever a weak defender - why should he have been in that case?

Lets forget about that try and look at all matches he played in and how he defended and you will find virtually no cases where he failed in tackles - that being one of his strongest points 

The way in which it is relevant is the following. Coetzee is being presented as a great cover defender by his fans. I can't say I saw any evidence of this. I saw a lot of productive tackling around the fringes....but Schalk does that in every game, so does Brussouw. They, however, do a lot more than that.

So if Coetzee was able to get out among the backs and make the tackles in space, that would be a plus. The one piece of evidence we have is his attempt to tackle de Jongh. And contrary to your description he was the one player perfectly placed to tackle Juan.....but simply wasn't fast enough. Kankowski or Big Joe in his prime would have made that tackle with ease. To be a great cover defender, like Big Joe, you need some pace. Coetzee is certainly fast enough to play test loosie....but great cover defender? I think not.

Here's the try to make viewing easy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZBJUDh709Y

Mike you will find that with Moffie, because he has now gone off Coetzee (a more fickle supporter you will never find), he will fabricate the reality of a state of play to fit in against a player he does not rate.

You are spot on regarding Coetzee's part or non part in the de Jongh try. KKK lives in a dreamworld

As Bobbie said....he shredded both loose forwards and Mvovo....case closed.

Wehe . . . "Bobbie (sic) said so . . . therefore it's case closed."

I'm guessing Moffie doesn't get "Bobbie's" laughably bad commentary on his little Yank rugby channels so he doesn't realize that "Bobbie" agreeing with you on TV is a bit like Baboon-ou agreeing with you on the message boards. 

I remember how Moffie used to squeal and quiver with excitement whenever Skinstad's name was mentioned but even I'm surprised that he'd use the feminine form of "Bobbie" for his immortal beloved rather than the usual masculine form "Bobby" . . . especially when you consider that Moffie is the foppish little pansy who is always shrieking about what sounds more "manly". You have to love the irony!

 Looking at the youtube video it does appear to be the fault of Coetzee that Dejong scores.

It may have been better than he did not attempt the tackle because he appears to obstruct Daniels from making a clean tackle.

Coetzee not only misses the tackle but to some degree prevents Daniels from making a clean tackle attempt. 

- Although Coetzee must be one of the best tacklers in the game this play he is responsibale for the try.

-When I watched the game live I thought  that it was a very good try. Now it looks more like a balls up by the Sharks defence.

Good summary BS. We have the other Twin Toilet roll on here again editing, but heaven only knows what a "littlel pansy" is.