The Inside Centre Revisited

With so many opinions flying around regarding our best options at 12 it appears that we are beginning to lose sight of what we really should be looking for in our inside centre. So here I have broken down a list of key attributes and then listed then gave my choice:

1. A hard runner into traffic to set up the next phase with secure carries.
2. Solid head-on defender.
3. Decoy runner.
4. An option to alleviate pressure on 10.
5. Breakdown presence. The 12 is an important position amongst the back for ruck dominance.
6. Ability to create space. The 12 is essential for creating space with good lines of running that make a flat attack in particular actually worth attempting.
7. Communication. This is especially important for 10 who needs alot of information when setting his alignment (and therefore depth of the back-line), defending and play calling.
8. A second option at first receiver.

When all is said and done I think Frans ticks the boxes very well. He has the best boot of all the 12s with a wide range of kicks, from deft chips and grubbers to high pressure clearance and cross-field kicks.

His passing is very good, be it in contact or sending out wide miss-passes to help the outside backs get around the edge of the defensive wall. His presence dixtates that defenders mark him tightly, tackling him twos or threes. His power and strength gives the team considerable go-forward drive and energy.

He operates like a roving loose forward off the ball attacking and cleaning breakdowns with force. If you want to play a ball-in-hand game then you need to have backs who can clean and secure possession. Frans gives you that in spades, much like O'Driscoll did for Ireland.

What say thee? List your options and state your case for them.

 De Allende's kicking game is poor and his defence has been suspect at times, but so has Fransie's. I will give Damien a proper run at 12 for the Boks. We know what we have in Fransie, so we have the luxury to give Damien a proper run

Is this for the RWC? Or just for the Boks in general?

 Boks in general IMO.

From what I have seen of the Sharks, they are struggling to glue together the 10-12-13 axis. Most people think of defence as one 'man takes down whatever is in front of him', but the fact is entire systems are predicated upon players inside and outside the primary defender supporting him. Take for instance the drift, if the opposition attack with inside balls, its the inside support that is supposed to guard the weak inside shoulder of the primary defender. The Sharks don't have that kind of connection through 10-12-13. Frans doesn't get beaten in straight defensive situations very often. But De Allende is in the best defensive team in SA, if not the competition. He has a very competent shutdown 13 outside him and a good 10 inside him. His issues are down to technique and poor reading of play. These are very concerning. With Frans you can form a rock solid defence, there is no question of that, but we need the right 10 and a 13 that can take advantage of Frans' presence protecting and supporting him inside. 

 Shezza, you are free to make your selection for either.

All I'm going to say is that I have yet to see a weakness in Vorster's game a part from kicking but that's an unknown rather than a weakness. I am a big fan of his but Super 15 is a lot different to Test rugby and I would not take him to the RWC. 
De Allende is all flair and needs to improve his defence, if I'm honest I don't see us winning a RWC with him playing as he seems a bit too green. 
Serfontein, the best option for us in the RWC but he has lacked offensively lately.
Your comments regarding a second option at 10 really isn't a factor for the Boks when Le Roux plays.


Even though I completely disagree with Frans you need to realise that he's not going to play for the Boks for the foreseeable future, not because of performance but because he himself has ruled it out because of contract disputes. 

 The list of requirements is fine,  but Francois Steyn in practice complies with virtually zero of what you say he does and your idea that he is effective in the various categories you listed must be a day dream or cloud 9 fantasy.
1.  He is a runner into traffic - but that is where it ends.  He is not really good in setting up the next phase.  Too many possession losses and penalties for hanging onto balls is a problem.  A head on defender who misses more than 25% of attempted tackles like Fransie do - is definitely not a solid defender.  
2.   I have in the past 4 years never once seen Fransie being a decoy runner - can you enlighten us when and where it happened.
3.   3 and 7 is duplicated - there are other players who through decisionmaking make things happen when they are the option to receive balls - Willie is an example.  But then what positive is there in what Frans does if he is the second receiver - since his reading of games is poor and his boot inaccurate.
4.   Breakdown presence - he normally is the crashballer - so does his importance lie in being the bottom of the pile?   Must say I did not note particularly that Fransie is guilty of protecting and recovering balls at breakdown situations.
5.  To create space is a wonderful quality - but unfortunately it is not a case where Fransie is any good at.   The best way to create space is to run hard at the gap between two defenders - draw in more than one defender by beating them or if tackled off-load the ball in a tackle situation.    Fransie run straight at the first defender - get tackled and a crashball situation is virtually inevitable.  No space is created by doing that.  Have not seen him creating space for other players during the past three years?
6.   Communication - every center in SA communicate with the flyhalf and players outside of him - so why is that a quality that distinguish Frans from the rest of the centers. 
Look - a very good presentation of what an inside center is supposed to do - but some serious misrepresentations as to what Steyn in fact does in meeting the stated requirements.    For you to say that Fransie "tick all boxes" without substantiated and factual support is a joke.    

I don't know how being a decoy runner can be used as a measurement to tell how good a center is. Decoy runners are used in set plays where the management decides who goes where and if you actually look at the act it's just understanding where you are in the set play (After many practise sessions) and running a certain line (Again after many practise sessions). 

Decoys are not just for set plays but phase play as well. The modern solution to the defensive structures from League that we inherited from the Wallabies in the late 90s were again inherited from League. And these are 2 and 3 man plays that are designed to make a breach on a defense from anywhere. Couple that with patterns which are used to manage the lateral movement of phase attack and you can understand how important all of this is. Nonu is very important in this way for New Zealand. And besides, more than any other position on the team, the 12 has the greatest capacity for creating space. He is the middle ground between the half-backs and outside backs (13, 11, 14, 15), so deception will play a role in getting the ball outside and around the edge of the defence. And furthermore, roughly 85% of tries are scored within 1 to 4 phases after set pieces. So this is pretty important to say the least. And Frans does it very well.

 Letsal
So if Fransie is attempting a tackle and he misses it - is the 10 or 13 to blame for it?  
I think that dedtermining what a player has to do and then wishing that he would do it him doing it are two vastly different things.  Fransie has been disappointing too many times - he was so bad in 2013 that his coach said he is not a center at all.   In essence one expect delivery and he was over the last four years weak insofar as delivery is concerned.
I think that experience is preferable - but then experience should only be a consideration if performance criteria is met.   Based on the latter I am afraid that the only center really meeting the top performance requirement is De Allende.   I think that Vorster will over the next year develop into a top class center - but he has only played 10 games in Super 15 and needs more game time before he can really be selected.   Looking at available info I would say he would be an excellent 13 in time to come.     

Not always no, but if a defender cannot do their job it creates pressure. If someone is not holding the integrity of the line , then yes they are to blame. Frans is not superman Michael, and cannot account for every problem the Sharks have, but it is a fact that 10-12-13 is not secure at the Sharks. Not like it was under Jake, but even then, it was suspect. Jake juggled Frans around to mask the problem, but in the end it was found out in the playoffs with 10 and 13 being exposed.

Frans was statistically the best Sharks centre in 2013. Plumtree had a personal problem with Frans, and it went a long way to getting him sacked. Playing your best 12 out of position and then dropping him and publicly offloading the blame from you to your player is something I would only expect of someone like you.

Your making this up, I've never read anything so contradictory and hypocritical in my life.

 There is nothing contradictory in anything I have said.

Letsal 
It was not a personal problem Plumtree had with Frans - otherwise he would not have made him the interim captain for the first four matches of the Sharks in Super 15 in 2013.
Problem was that Fransie was grossly overweight with a fitness deficiency and  a loss of pace being a problem as well.    His performance in the first match against the Cheetahs was sufficient, but his performances in subsequent games was so poor that Plumtree was forced into having him benched early in the second half in the game against the Kings and in the subsequent game against the Brumbies he was atrociously poor - so much so that Plumtree said he was no center.
There was every indication that Fransie was not good enough to pla y for the Sharks and Plumtree was honest enough to say that.   To assume that Fransie had anything to do with the firing of Plumtree is a serious joke.  By May Fransie got injured - most likely as a result of unfitness and overweight - and he never played any further rugby in 2013.  
 

I said the misuse. Not using your best player properly will get you poor returns. Plumtree was a very poor coach and it caught up with him in the end!

 Letsal
So poor a coach that he made hay in being part of the coaching set-up in Ireland (the 6Nations Champion) and is at present with the Hurricanes.   He used Fransie at 12 for four matches and when he failed badly in three of the four matches he played in - Plumtree put him on the bench and used him at full back.  In the first game he came from the bench - he buggered up with the first two balls he got.
There is no way that Fransie was any good before he was dropped.  So he was not the best 12 period - even Bosman showed more when he replaced Steyn in   subsequent matches.
By the way Smit fired Plumtree - not because of the latters coaching deficiency - but because he wanted Venter as coach.  First step towards the nightmare the Sharks is in at present.  Probably one of the worst decisions Smit made - being on par with the contracting of Wentzel, Botha and Stevens.              

You are in for a rude awakening Michael. Your words will haunt you. I've saved them for future reference.

The best decision Smit made was firing Plumtree and hiring Jake. The worst was letting Jake go. Plumtree regressed the Sharks, achieved little of note.

 The experience of serious failure at 12 will not be of any value to either the 10 or the 13 - and what you do not want to admit is that Fransie was a failure since his return from France in 2012.  He was -
*   useless in the tests in 2012;*   was shockingly poor in 2013 in Super 15;*   recovered his kicking at goal ability in 2014, but was otherwise statistically the worst and most useless backline player in Super 15; and*   BS in 2015 with a slightly better performance on Saturday, but still a serious defensive liability in that game.
What does experience bring to the game that would be positive if the seriously defective  performance record of the past three years is borne in mind?   Is poor decision-making and performance a positive in your book?   

Hookers don't have a great vantage point on back play.....you are the living proof Mike.

 I am not the topic - Frans Steyn is.  You yourself admitted Frans Steyn's statistics are poor - so it is better to ignore his actual performances on the field of play confirmed by his stats, his atrocious decision-making and execution and dream up meaningless fairy tales to justify about what he brings to the game. 
I have seen no proof of the positives you and Letsal ascribe to Fransie since his return from France in 2012 - so try again.     

No...no point in trying. You won't get it....anybody who thinks Jordaan is test material and thinks that Step had a great game against the Bloos....won't get it.

 Mozart
Stop daydreaming - did I not say that Serfontein had a better performance than so far  in Super 15 - but he did not have a great game  in view of defensive deficiencies?
And this thing about Jordaan is rubbish really.  I thought in 2012 and 2013 that Jordaan would make the grade as a center and he was very good - but his career has been affected negatively by too many injuries and I have moved on from that one and have supported selection of other options at 13.  `
My loyalty consists of defending players against unsubstantiated allegations and slurs based on single incidents during a series - but if you can prove that over the past year I have ever suggested that Jordaan should be a Springbok you are welcome to do it.      

 

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clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 16867RE: Springbok Captain Jdv out of squad
May 25, 2014, 13:46:45 I half expected this.  De Villiers this year was plagued with injuries this Super 15 - something often found with players as they are nearing retirement age.
I would say the best option they have is to play De Allende at 12 and replace De Villiers in the squad with Jordaan.   A De Allende - Jordaan combination will be very good - since it is obvious that JJ does not bring enough in attacking play to warrant his selection.  Another combination would be Serfontein - De Allende. 
There is absolutely no reason why De Allende should not be selected - he performed much better than any of the existing centers in the Springbok squad and shuld be a natural selection.
Knowing Meyer's line of thought - he would persist with Serfontein and  Engelbrecht - or bring in Francois Steyn, but there is no future in that one either.  Steyn despite the hype was a very poor performing center this year and he is not available to play in the RC in any event.                  

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 Mozart
Look at the date of that comment - look carefully please.   Was it in the last year?
Your insertion has buggered up the margins of this thread - please d o something about it.

I guess when you are so thoroughly taken to the cleaners moaning about the margins is the best you can do. "Over the past year"  means exactly that in simple English.....game, set and match.

 Mozart
Not game set and match.  That quote of yours was dated 15 May 2014 and I asked you about the year - since it is 20 May 2015 today.   Wonder how that date suddenly changed to 25 May 2015????????  Puzzling that one.   

 Oh the old conspiracy theory. Well nonsense, the date was always the same. To prove that I'm going to post the whole string. You will see your post is positioned in between two other posts, both on May25. When you see that I trust you will apologize for once again falsely accusing me of being dishonest.
The string is titled "Springbok captain JDV out of the Squad".

 I accused you of nothing.  I just wondered why the date was different from the one I saw when first looking at the date of the message quoted by you.  Could have made a mistake myself - but think that was unlikely.   

Hahaha so tell me.....how do you explain the date above is wedged between two similar dates? This is a simple intelligence test.

 Mozart
I said I could have been mistaken when I looked at the dates - but then I also made a terrible mistake by saying that I did not make a proposal to have Jordaan selected DURING THE PAST YEAR.  I should have said 51 and a half weeks not a year.  Huge mistake - one has to be very precise on this site!!!!!!! 

Duplicate  

Dancing on the head of a pin Moronic....but at least a bit of humour.  

 

 De Allende is expected to be in the RWC Boks Team.