The Meyer years will lead nowhere

 Best case we will have a year like 2009 where our forwards dominate. But inevitably that will be matched and we'll slip back into  impotence like the Rwc11.

We desperately need a coaching revolution, where our players learn more complex patterns and real passing skills. It won't happen under this coach. His desperate clinging on to Bols players who have been discredited shows he can't move on.

Watching the incredible progress in British cycling and rowing at this Olympics, the transformation good icing can make, is readily apparent. With Meyer we have a coach who isn't open to progress...a coch with his feet in cement.

So the vision of a balanced Bok team, using its forward power to spring creative back play.....will remain just that a vision....if not an illusion

My faith is Meyer is taking a battering but I am not throwing in the towell yet.

We are in a difficult place with a large number of injuries and a number of juniour players of real talent not quite ready. The remainder of this year will be difficult but things should start getting better from next year. By 2015 we should be about there. By there I mean number 1

However if Meyer continues with his blue tinted glasses were are toast. I am still very concerned that an unknown like Ricardo Loubscher was appointed backline coach.  Nieaber shoud have been defensive coach etc.

 There is no time for these guys to learn on the job.....the pressure to win takes away the freedom to experiment. You have to lead with credible strategies from the start. 

Jake started by closing the Bok revolving door, bringing back great players like Os and Monty and devising the push defence! Later he gave Jones freedom to shape our attckingback play.

Face it Meyer hasn't!  showed one new wrinkle. All his selections are Bools, obvious choices or popular players.  By the time hehas figured it all out, he may be gone or years will have been lost.

In a new leader one looks for his vision. Seeing none, I'm guessing Meyer is operating on the failedBoolsmodel. But  my guess is....he thinks we an do it better after all these years.

 Sorry about all these typos chaps...but I'm struggling with the edit on my iPad.

Yep. Meyer is useless and knows nothing about coaching. Fire him and appoint someone from this forum instead. We have quite a few chaps here who could teach Meyer a lesson or two.

I am with Mozart on this one.  Its going nowhere!  At least Snorre made us laugh!  He stands there and tell us this is the best we have.  Its NOT!  People complain about Grant not being able to kick far enough!  We have Francois Steyn in the squad that can do that.  Spies has been out of form for how long?  Yes Kanko is in Japan but Ruan is selected!    I am sick and tired of hearing about the next WC.  Well Mr. Meyer if that is your goal.  Keepiing the players you have now is not gonna help! 

 I am starting to hate Meyer. He selects Bulls players unless an alternative is 10 times better. Even all the Bulls coaches got jobs at the boks. Meyer is still a Bulls person- either on the payroll or in heart. 

Let John Mitchell be the bok coach. Ok he is not South African but at least he is not going to favour the Lions players!

I have not given up on Meyer yet - he started off badly by picking a number of out-of-form players against the POMS and - despite atrpcious displays by them in the later Super 15 matches - clings to them like a magnet.   Thee is still a chance that he could learn - and the best school would be iin the forthcmoing four-nations tournament.   I forsee big losses and that may yet open Meyer's eyes to what is wromng with his selection of under-performing players.

Maybe he should not stick with his statement that South Afrcia does not have talented back line players and change his backline coach to somebody that knows how to coach players to play in the backline.   That would also help a lot.   As a starting point he could also stop his insistence on 10-men rugby.

He started off badly - but there is a massive scope for improvement,  I hope he realises that and start looking for exactly that as soon as possible.   By the way that he not looked stressed when the squad was announced? 

 Not as stressed as he is going to look after his first test in NZ......if he remains totally predictable and continues to choose losers like Flip and Spies. I prefer guys who hate to lose versus happy losers like Spies.

Schalk Burger and Vermuelen should be in the squad, even though they are injured

Beeno

I did not know that Burger and Vermeulen signed  Blue Bulls contracts?   if not - no chance for selection.

well lets put things into perspective. first off most of the squad has been the best in the country. that being said there is the select few that are only there due to one eyed selections. to be fair one can spot the playing style that HM wants to play a mile away. as the saying goes if your predictable your beatable.

i dont buy into the fact that there is to much injuries. burger and co is not better than the level of talent going around at the moment. there is no room for tokenism at the top of the game so if HM is not carefull he might be signing his own end very soon. his selections are not build for future development but rather short term and rather just favouring one team more than others. on pure form there is a lot of very very very lucky gentleman in the squad.

we will have to wait and see how things progress but i fear we are going to be stuck with the same penile limp stormers boring kick and chase rugby.

the breakdown area we will get murdered on a weekly basis. elton jantjies is at least better than morne in terms of running play but he is so up and down on form that i am sure not even he knows when he will pitch up and play correctly. this will be a tough year indeed. the 10 man 1980's style of play has no place in modern rugby under die new ELV's...i wish HM all the luck in the world because he will need all of it. to PDV's credit at least he tried to play a different style to this muck of rugby that is being played

 The crucial point is.....if you believe the oppo backs are better.....you have to run the ball more. And if you kick, you kick for territory, you don't put u and u's on the 10 m line.

Very often these great running backlines, don't defend all that well.

The strategy has to be running at the AB and Oz.....and when the phases stagnate, send long rolling kicks for the corners.

But the proposition is brutally simple, if you cant find backs and loosies who beat the first tackle, you can't win. I think Alberts, Kankan, the Beat, Bekker, Bismarck, Hougaard, jean, JP are all player who can beat tackles. We need a few more, maybe Jordaan, and tactics that unleash them.

Beeno10 that avatar cracks me up. Hahahahahaha windpomp must love it!  The bulle need to recover their mojo as a rugby team for sure.

What we need beeno 10 is our injured players fit and on form. Instead of Burger in the squad we have kolisi. Insread of vermulen we have spiesies. Coenie is also an important missing cog.

Is Cillers better than WP Nel? Bresler looks more of a lock than Juandre. Kan kan should have made it. Elstadt is better than Potgieter.

carpet, are you sersious?  "PDV tried to play a different style.." No he didn't, he played exactly the same style, and didn't change one bloody thing....except maybe not be able to speak English..or Afrikaans at the post match interviews. Seriously, those of you that are saying PDV did anything right need your heads checked! I can't believe how quickly everyone has forgotten what a total joke he was!!! He was our worst coach ever (Except maybe for Straulli) and the few results he did get early on were because the Senior players were coaching themselves and sticking to Jakes Whites old game plan...but once that became outdated...so did the Boks.

Seriously, I'll take Meyer ANYDAY over that token clown! I don't like some of the decisions regarding the squad, but here is the hard truth about squads...under no coach EVER, has a squad been chosen that kept everyone happy!!

i agree 120 % moz....as always your thought process is spot on.

the ab and wallies are so attack obsessed that almost all of the time the defence is overlooked and as such the only way to attack them is to turn there strong point namely attack against them. the teams that had the best results are the teams that attack there defence more...not by being conservative but rather keeping ball away from them and attacking them. the net result is your not feeding there main weapon. kicking must be used to gain a advantage not just for the sake of it. the nz and wallie sides live of posession so playing into there hands in that regard is just plain stupid and outdated.

we have the ball carriers to break down that first tier tackles but its important to give those players as much of the ball as possible but by kicking the ball away and not securing your rucks on both attack and defence you are just basicly defending most of the time.

 Blue I agree with you on PdV, he was very poor and had our best team in 20 years at their peak. So Meyer's task is harder. I'm bothered by some selections....but as you SA, that's par for the course.

What worries me is the focus he has on tactical kicking. When he says he can coach Morne back....he means he can get his kicking right. He says as much in Rugby 365. He has the same view of Hougaard.

Meyer essentially believes good tactical kicking and solid forward play win tests. I think the game has moved on though.....Saturday showed you still need both of those, but the winning team, was the team that broke tackles and got the next pass away. That requires players who have the skills to do that.

@blue sorry i would just like to rectify a few points i was trying to say that at least he tried to play a more open style of play. that style of play is more in touch with how the game is being played under the new laws. a more open play with proper fecther trying to steal possesion ext. the type of game i am refering to is the rwc game against the wallies were we out ran the wallies. that is the game that i feel we can play on a weekly basis and be a very tough team to beat.

the point i am trying to make is we need total rugby. we have the forwards to dominate but we need to have the backs and a gameplan to compliment them enough to attack and be skill full

I saw somwhere above that Meyer said he can coach Steyn and Hougaard to get over their kicking prolems - but there is ZERO indication that he even thinks about coaching them to be better all-round back line players? Does this ever get into his thinking processes?

that is the problem.....spot on mike. it seems that to him kicking is the only skill that needs to be worked on. that mere fact worries me a lot to be honest.

Meyer said he can coach Steyn and Hougaard to get over their kicking problems

So the new place to get into form is in the Bok team!

seems like HM is hell bent on morne steyn so we just need to accept it. put if there is any aimless canon fodder kicking going arround i promise you i will be the first to lay the smack down on this forum

Springboks, going backwards since 2007... and counting.

I can't take this bullsh*t anymore, I really had high hopes for HM, that he would lead a revolution.

Chiliboy Ralepelle, Pierre Spies, Morné Steyn and Zane Kirchner

Seriously HM wtf are you on? Is it pure crack? Cos I can relate man, that sh*t makes you do crazy things.

Over it... start looking for rugby nation who employs a couching staff who actually have a clue

 Kirchner is useless. Now and again he has a decent Supexv game. Spoes is a non contributor is the loose, especially in the tight exchanges. 

Morne was excellant in the 3rd test against the Poms. He stood in the pocket twice on good attacking moves- instead to take drop goals. However in both cases- he did not even take the drop goals even though he had lots of time. I personally would rather see the boks lose a game playing a game of rugby like the Sharks or even Cheetas(sometimes), that is 15 man rugby. Frans Steyn is capable of this. A combination of Lambie at 10 and Frans Steyn at 12 could be a good progressive style of rugby suited to South Africa.

The only reason the bulls done so well a few years ago- was because nearly all the forwards were 1st choice boks. This was too much forward power- especially at Loftus Super14 games. 

We are not going to be able to be so dominant at international level- as the Bulls were at Super14 level

 This is classic. Rather than lowering expectations for the first year, making necessary changes like Spies, Meyer is on record as wanting to win every test. This won't give him the freedom to evolve a new more successful style....it leaves him mired in the past.  He has already made fatal errors.

 Hell it's seems in this country a coach can never ever get it right.

Jake was an idiot that believed the only fetcher was the on fetching his beer, Snorre was an idiot that couldn't make a single decision.

Meyer was the Second coming and all of a sudden after 3 tests he is the Idiot killing our Rugby.

Dammit people, stop critisizing and give the guy some time. He won't be perfect as all of them weren't but he will at least try and do his Job. How on earth will all your Public dissapointment with the man have any impact on what he does?

Look tbh honest none of us claim to be rugby gods, well maybe Beeno1 :P

But, doesn't take a whole lot to realise that the Boks have been sub par for a very long time now. Let's face it getting out of the group stages was massive for us 2011.

Really couldn't have seen us do much better. Our game plan and players are dated, the AB's and Aus have our number and know exactly how to beat us. Flip man look at PE, England almost did us.

Injecting young players is a farce, all these players are there to play this dead(yes dead not dying, dead) game plan.

Here is to loosing to Argentina! Hopefully then he will wake up.

Now the great move forward - call op Bakkies Botha and De Jongh.   Is Meyer getting brain paralysis or not?   I am detecting something very clear about his game plan - try and dominate in front and coach Hougaard and Steyn to kick effectively - leave the backline for the rest as decorative and for defence only.   Every utterance and move he makes re-inforce ,my initial reaction about Meyer's game plan.  

This rubbish can never work as a game plan and we are gone and dusted for the Meyer coaching years - that is the end of our dreams for the next WC.   Meyer is stuck in the past and cannot think about what is to be done in future.   Maybe he would learn something in future though mounting test losses - that is our only hope for some improvement of a pathetic game plan.    

the differences at the international level is so so so small that in order to be the best and beat the best you need to play a style that allows you to attack on all fronts. that goes without saying. going into a international with a one eyed approach of we are going to out scrum them until the cows come home and out jump them in the line outs. a lot of coaches talk about our strenghts being our forwards fine fair enough but we are not in the 80's where all the teams where amateur and did not have access to supplements and gyms. things have changed. all the major sides have big forwards and capable to hold there own. there game has changed over the years where ours has in terms of tactics gone nowhere

to compete on the international stage against the likes of the AB and wallies you need total rugby. forwards working and backline players firing. both on attack and defence. the new elv's promote a more open game with kicks being almost penalised by not being able to be kicked out directly ext ext. so then change the way you play HM...its not rocket science. i cant but help to feel like were stuck in a time warp with the likes of no cups coetzee and this obsession with defence and aimless kicking. the rwc 2011 is a prime example. we scraped through against wales with stormers style of play. ultra lucky to even win that match seeing that we gave away our ball with kicks down there throughts. the welsh coached bu a kiwi love it when they can run at you all day.

when we played the wallies we flipped the game plan and played a open attack minded game and for 90% outgunned outran and dominated the wallies. that was total rugby so much so that the general rugby public was not upset of the loss. the game was for the better of the word perfect. we lost due to bad ref calls and did not take the huge amount of chances we had only because playing that type of game take weeks to perfect.

i am sticking to my guns and saying that if we dont change the game pattern that we have to a style that we played in that game against the aussies then i fear we will only be a decent enough team with odd wins here and there rather being a world trend setter and winning everything that is on offer. playing the penile limp stormer old bulls game fo running like stevie wonder blindly like a robot 10 man rugby style will only get HM fired.

the world has moved on so as they say adapt or die

With all due respect people, its all this talk of total rugby that cost us the RWC last year. We wanted to score tries and ignored the numerous chances for drop goals against Ozz. If you want to build a team, identify your strong suits and build on them. Then go to your weaknesses and eliminate them. Then , if you really want to step up, start with innovation to ad to your repertoire, and constantly ad something unexpected to keep your opponents guessing. The Boks' strengths used to be line outs, rolling mall and hard forward play, combined with a good kicking game. Our defense let us down at times. Fix the defense, stick to the rest, but start to add a bit more. Should be simple enough for a good coach. Forget about killing the 10 man game all at once, that would be suicide. Get the defense sorted, fix the kicking game and then expand the strategy.

 

Moz is right about runing at the abs etc. But one step back. You run off good ball the most effectively ,Hence your forwards are key.

MEYER ON MY KNEES I BEG OF YOU PICK REAL FORWARDS AND ESCHEW THE SHOWPONIES A LA MATFIELD!!!!

Draads incremental approach is what will most likely happen. Meyer is a builder not an overnight sensation.

Now please oaks take your medication and cheer up. Be realistic and take it  the chin if the results are not all you might wish for but understand that the graph is heading north over the longer term. 

Beeno running out of tissues!

sorry draad dont agree with that statement. we lost only due to the fact that we only changed the way we play for the aussie game. the rest of the tournament we scraped through with your proposed 10 man game. if not for the nienaber defense our aimless kicking almost cost us the wales and samoa game. come the aussie we suddenly playing a style that made the aussies useless. if you dont believe me do your research and have a look at the games that i am talking about please.

i do have the game for anaylise purposes so i am more than willing to ship it you to. i agree with your take om incrementalism but with the personal at hand we can take that lead forward a lot easier. it all starts by the players you put on the pitch.

aimless kicking will only ask more for your defence to take when you face a team that is playing like the ab and wallies. so if you and beeno are happy in watching the boks tackle 70% of the game when so be it. i bet you 50 bucks they will be on the wrong end of the scorecard 99.9% of the times when the final whistle blows. stats prove that teams that kick less and run more win more international games. cant escape that.

if we have a strong back of forwards then they need to be complimented by backs that are just as dominating.

Draad

Please forget about the 10-men game as a strategy and think wider.   The so-called 10-men game neglects completely the development of backline play - and that would never ever win you anything significant.   Let me go further.   Kicking must be part of a broader strategy - there must be variation in play that makes defending difficult.   The opposition should never know when you are going to kick and when you are going to pass.   That is the key.

If you are going to be predicatble - you might as well accept losing test matches.

I believe the problem is that Morne Steyn is the most predictable flyhalf in the world - he kicks and kicks and kicks (mpostly aimlessly)     However, what has gone awry is that his kicking has gone backwards and he is at this stage a very poor flyhalf.   You spoke about drop goals - but Morne tried that twice in PE against the Lions and both were missed.   In the meantime the Springboks in fact had overlaps - but Morne decided to kick the ball away aimlessly.   There is no BALL SENSE in mindless kicking and that is what I believe the majority of the contributors on this site is saying.    A flyhalf must assess when to kick and when to pass - but that is not done properly at this stage.

Meyer's only talk is about upgrading the kicking abilities of Hougaard and Morne Steyn - but even if they kick well - we are doomed to losses.   Teach them how to read games better and identify potential moves as qwell and we may be getting nearer the mark.

@draad and beeno

you both tend to forget that rugby is also meant to entertain and there is nothing and i do mean nothing entertaining about see a team playing donkey rugby kicking all over the park for 80 min of the game.

it seems like the no cups coetzee vodoo of rugby has rubbed of on all the stormers supporters.

facts are kicking without intent and purpose does more harm than just running with the ball. its predictable and one dimensional kicking that has plagued SA teams over the years. its pretty simple if you cant gain a clear advantage from kicking then just dont kick. its not rocket science

Carpetmuncher

Just one issue - I am strongly against a kicking strategy if that is the one that we are dealing with.

By the way I really think your comment about "donkey" kicking is a classic.   Is Norne Steyn's new nickname going to be "Donkey"?

Muncher you and Mike are having comprehension problems I really dont know how to explain to you that good tactical kicking is beneficial but pointless kicking is not helpful.  I have spelt this out yet you insist on misunderstanding the very obvious. Please wake up! Its like talking to the trees!

Meyer has won a test series against england with a sub par team. Give the man a chance. Man he has barely begun.  So I also dont like some things but I am not writing him off  yet he has to be given a fair chance as he has earned this appointment.

Morne also is being castigated way too much. He has been off colour but does not deserve all this abuse and neither does Meyer.  

Meyer won a series that he should of done 3 nil....as you have pointed out the Bok team were sub par.......funny how you never pointed this out untilthe 3 rd test draw???................But the more important point gimp boy is the fact that the English were even more sub-par than we were so we should of never had a drawn test to them on our home grounds..................damn its like talking to a monkey trying to get things through your peanut brain!!!!!

Learn Beeno Learn!!!!!!

 It is his selections that is making everyone negative.Their are too many sub standard Bulls players. Also the flyhalf position is under major scrutiny- however with Frans Steyn in the team any flyhalf will play better. It is unlikely a co-incidence that in the 3rd test when Frans was not around their was a noticeable decline in Morne- who in the first 2 tests played flat and his best attacking and running games for the boks ever. The 3rd test was terribale- hence all the shouting at PE.

If Goosen was at flyhalf- and Morne on the bench then I think people would be more optimistic. 
We want to see a complete game- and Goosen is the best flyhalf in SA by a mile- and great at goal kicking as well. A Goosen/Frans Steyn combination can wins us games against the best.