BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
07 Feb 2015, 20:30#2
out goes Thomas and in come Beast.Out goes Coetzee and incomes LouwOut goes Lambie and in comes Allende.
Out goes Senatla and in comes JJe Habana.
Mush be ter!
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
08 Feb 2015, 11:17#5
Nah the popular team would be:
15. Willie 14. v/ Wyk 13. JJ 12. Serfontein 11. Senatla 10. Pollard 9. Hougaard 1. du Toit 2. Bismark 3. Marcel v/ d Merwe 4. Willemse 5. Etzebeth 6. Coetzee 7. PSDT 8. Arno Botha.
16. Strauss 17. Nkanyane 18. Coenie 19. Jacques du Plessis 20. Carr 21. Reinach 22. Lambie 23. de Allende
Now we are talking
15. Kriel 14. Sithole 13. Howard 12. Esterhuizen 11. Rhule 10. Goosen 9. de Klerk 1. Kitshoff 2. Cooper 3. Malherbe 4. Kleyn 5. Lood 6. Kolisi 7. v/d Walt 8. CJ Stander
16. Scara 17. Mellett 18. v/Dyk 19. Ruan Botha 20. Mtembu 21. v/Zyl 22. Jantjies 23. Odendaal
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Feb 2015, 12:16#6
Dave
The problem is Arno Botha has not played any rugby for two years -we will have to see how he shapes in up Super 15 before anyone can assess what he is really like. Nobody would support his selection ahead of Vermeulen in any event. Hope he gets some game time for the Bulls ahead of Spies this year.
Come now - you lost is completely - I would select Pieter-Steph ahead of Willemse at lock. The problem is that the idea to play Du Toit or for that matter any other potential lock at 7 is the same problem we have with Willem Alberts - they are deficient in breakdown ball protection and recovery. The problem was evident even in the last Bulls match - the breakdown recovery process deteriorated markedly when Labuschagne was benched and the opposition consequently started to score tries.
Senatla - I am beginning to have serious reservations about this guy - whether he should not remain at Sevens and forget about the 15 man game. Lets wait and see.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
08 Feb 2015, 12:48#7
I would not select Botha ahead of Vermeulen, Vermeulen is a certainty.
Nope my side has Willemse and PSDT in it.
Oh so Senatla has been awesome for some time and he along with the rest of the Blitzbokke have an average competition and you want to dump him. Do you know how pathetically ignorant you come across?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Feb 2015, 13:52#8
Dave
There is a huge difference between being tops in Sevens and tops in 15 man rugby. I have doubts about Senatla from a defense perspective. He gets m ore space in Sevens and he can beat players with pace - not so easy in the 15 man game. Not ignorant - just careful.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
08 Feb 2015, 14:42#9
Steph is very mobile and hard working playing him at 7 is NOT out of the question. Senatla's defence will be tested and I feel will be exposed unfortunately - we shall see.
Snapster you dont pick Vermuelen in your side but prefer him to Arno?Mike sensible comments. Thomas is a huge prospect so we shall see how he goes.
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
08 Feb 2015, 14:51#10
I picked Steph for my s15 fantasy rugby team, he has a lot of talent but the question is can he stay healthy. I also picked Vermuelen as he was cheaper than the world's best no. 8
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
08 Feb 2015, 15:21#11
He was awesome in 15 s for Baby Boks and WP so there will be no issue with him at all. In 7's you have to mostly make smother tackles and go high which is a risk.
There is no issue with Senatla's defence just as there is not Kok's. You get far more exposed defensively in 7's than 15 s because of the space.
Senatla is going to be as big as Habana, JP and co are in Bok rugby. Of that I have no doubt. He is an awesome talent.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
08 Feb 2015, 15:39#12
Senatla is competitive, something Mvovo never was. I think he will be fine, but he will be tested with high cro ss kicks. My prediction is by the end of te S15 several of these players wont even be first choice for their S15 teams.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 Feb 2015, 17:38#13
Mozart
Shooting into the sky again and hope you hit something. "My prediction is by the end of te S15 several of these players wont even be first choice for their S15 teams. "
Lets hear more - who do you think will not be the first choice selections of their Super 15 franchises and who will be the players that replaces them?
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
08 Feb 2015, 18:36#14
Yep Senatla will be fine anyone raising question marks about his credentials is an ignorant fool.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
08 Feb 2015, 23:35#16
Ah good one Moz given you named v/Wyk my guess is that you don't even know who he is.
Imagine Malherbe not making the Stormers starting side....who would replace him???
Lambie and Reinach two starting Boks not making their S15 sides
Keep it up Moz.....good laugh that
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2015, 00:37#17
Van Wyk is just a slightly better version of JJ. Decent athletes, and van Wyk is certainly more physical than JJ. But like JJ makes poor decisions.
He who laughs last.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Feb 2015, 00:40#18
Just as I thought Moz you know very little about v/Wyk. What poor decision has he made exactly out on the wing?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2015, 01:00#19
Dave I watched a lot of van Wyk last year. What good wings did he outplay. He is dangerous taking the high ball and a decent finisher....but not at all creative. I'd say decent S15 material, but not a test wing, not yet maybe never.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2015, 03:25#20
Mozart
As expected - your top hate players is on that list. Before his injury last year Malherbe was statistically the top performing prop in Super 15- yet he will be replaced by the Stormers.
Lambie and Reinach - you must be kidding. Who do you think will replace those two?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
09 Feb 2015, 06:01#21
Mike you have the wrong emotion. I don't hate Lambie....I think he should be our Halfpenny. But I would still pick Willie.
Raainach is a fabulous athlete but a klutz of a scrum half.
All I ask is that we judge based on actual performance, not perceived potential. That way we won't drag a loser like Spies in the national team for 6 years.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2015, 07:16#22
Mozart
Problem is we have the habit of dragging match losers for years in the Springbok team. It was not only Spies that fell in that category - the list is much longer and include Morne Steyn, Francois Steyn, Bakkies Botha, Gurthro Steenkamp, Victor Matfield - all four flopped regularly in 2010 and remained in contention until this year. Just watch the tests results in 2010 and 2011, as well as the fiasco's in 2012 and 2014, to see what I meant here.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Feb 2015, 09:32#23
v/Wyk played all his age group rugby at 12 so you can be sure there is plenty of creativity there. Wing is hardly the place to be creative.
He is a quality player who should be playing 13. You are wrong about him as you are most players.
09 Feb 2015, 12:49#24
"It was not only Spies that fell in that category - the list is much longer and include Morne Steyn, Francois Steyn, Bakkies Botha, Gurthro Steenkamp, Victor Matfield - all four flopped regularly in 2010 and remained in contention until this year."
Gurthro Steenkamp was the 2010 SA Player of the year and kept Beast out at some stage. Him, Morne Steyn, Bakkies and Victor were in the side that won the Super 14 in 2010. But 2010 was also the year in which PDV thought that, after 2009, he was invincible and tried all kinds of funny tricks. In his defence, as far as the rest of the 2010 EOYT is concerned, we have to bear in mind that he had injuries to John Smit, Jaque Fourie, Wynand Olivier, Andries Bekker, Fourie du Preez, Heinrich Brüssow, JP Pietersen, Gurthrö Steenkamp, Butch James and BJ Botha to deal with.
That was the same year that he sent a "Bok" team to play two second stringer club sides in England, while he himself stayed behind and the "Bok" team got badly beaten by two under par club sides. That was also the year that he hung onto Wynand Olivier and played JDV on the wing. The year that he played Januarie ahead of FDP. It was also the year that he brought back Butch James and the year that he reverted back to CJ vd Linde again. That was also the same time that he had the fiasco of not knowing what to do about John Smit and Bismarck du Plessis.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2015, 13:20#25
Ceradyne
Player of the year means zero if the team continues to lose tests and did badly in the WC competition in 2011. That distinction is then awarded to the best one among a bad lot.
Don't blame De Villiers - he was too weak a coach to manage the "senior" players like Smit, Matfield and Botha - who decided on selection and playing style. But was Meyer any better?
Whenever things were showing improvement - he ran to plead with the oldish to return to the team. The list is long and the results putrid - Bakkies Botha, Gurthro Steenkamp, Jaque Fourie, Victor Matfield.
Lucky for us Bakkies Botha and Jacque Fourie realized they are not competitive anymore and opted out - otherwise they would still be first choice selections of Meyer. But we still have physically-deficient Matfield and Fat Steenkamp to bugger up the forwards. Over the past two years they got worse and worse.
All those are way past their sell-by date and should never have been utilized by Meyer.
09 Feb 2015, 13:53#26
You like to generalise, Mike, and you also like to paint dark pictures. We only just lost the one game in the 2011 RWC and, in all honesty, nobody (myself included) expected us to even get past the pool stages of the 2011 RWC, after the 2010 fiasco. Apart from that, Bakkies did not even play in the only game that we lost at the 2010 RWC. He was injured. Danie Rossouw played in his place.
Our entire 2011 RWC campaign had nothing to do with your five pet hates in particularly but was rather a culmination of a lot of factors. One of them, coincidently, was the fact that Australia suffered a surprise loss to Ireland in the pool stages. The other has a lot to do with what has happened in the previous three years where there was almost no progression to "build" a squad. We had a core of around 23 players and the rest were almost light years behind the so-called starting side. The gap in quality between the prime players and the second stringers were just too big.
It was also not a matter of PDV being too weak to manage the senior players. It was the senior players who saved his bacon. PDV was hell-bent on proving that he was "different". Remember his "expansive game-plan" in 2008? The moment that the senior players told him that it was a balls-up, they reverted back to what they knew and beat NZ in Dunedin. Who was the captain in that game? Victor Matfield. Who was the flyhalf? Morne Steyn. Who was the loosehead prop? Gurthro Steenkamp. Who was the other lock? Bakkies Botha. Frans Steyn was on the bench. But all five of the failed in 2010.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2015, 15:41#27
Ceradyne
The following is absolute crap and if you believe otherwise - you are indeed daft:-
"We had a core of around 23 players and the rest were almost light years behind the so-called starting side. The gap in quality between the prime players and the second stringers were just too big. "
As the case is at present there were plenty of younger players knocking on the door for selection - but the "player mafia" who ran the team would not allow any in. There was indeed as a result no player renewal and thatin the end cost us dearly.
Don't talk of 2008 when I mentioned 2010 and later. And the "The moment that the senior players told him that it was a balls-up, they reverted back to what they knew and beat NZ in Dunedin." Why was it a balls-up? Was it because the senior players were incapable of playing anything different -- not even Eddie Jones could get them straightened out. When players tell the coach anything he suggested is a "balls-up" then you must know who in fact is running the show.
The top players in 2008 was all around 30 years of age - by 2010 they were mostly over the hill and by 2011 totally over the hill. But Meyer wanted them back by hook and by crook - so what have we got in 2015 - a total "balls-up". And the players need not tell him that - the results show that.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2015, 16:13#31
I am not going t speculate about which players is to be chosen and which ones not for a team 4 years ago. What is clear that from a performance perspective the team was doomed from the word go.
Even in 2011 half off the players in that team was over-the-hill - most of the other half is over-the-hill at present.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2015, 18:04#35
First of all - this is 2015 not 2011 - the latter being the time warp you and Mozart are in. I am frankly not interested in who was in the 2011 teams - all I know they were past ot then and even worse now.
The young team of 2011 against the All Blacks was anything but young. The only player below 35 was a serious flop called Juan de Jongh. Then Basson at 24 and the rest were all 25 plus.
However, there could not have been a worse lot selected to represent the Springboks in those two tests Mozart quoted. Those who were not has-beens by then, was seriously deficient. Not one of the so-called younger players are really fit to be Springboks now.
I will join Dave and asked - who selected that lot?
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Feb 2015, 18:04#36
First of all - this is 2015 not 2011 - the latter being the time warp you and Mozart are in. I am frankly not interested in who was in the 2011 teams - all I know they were past ot then and even worse now.
The young team of 2011 against the All Blacks was anything but young. The only player below 35 was a serious flop called Juan de Jongh. Then Basson at 24 and the rest were all 25 plus.
However, there could not have been a worse lot selected to represent the Springboks in those two tests Mozart quoted. Those who were not has-beens by then, was seriously deficient. Not one of the so-called younger players are really fit to be Springboks now.
I will join Dave and asked - who selected that lot?
09 Feb 2015, 18:55#38
Mike, it seems like you are back to your old ducking and diving self again. You are suddenly adamant that we should move away from 2011 and prior. You are the one who went back to 2010 and now that it has come back to bite you in the nuts you want to drop the issue again. This was what triggered it, remember?:
"It was not only Spies that fell in that category - the list is much longer and include Morne Steyn, Francois Steyn, Bakkies Botha, Gurthro Steenkamp, Victor Matfield - all four flopped regularly in 2010 and remained in contention until this year."
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
09 Feb 2015, 20:49#40
Bwhaaahaaaaa a team with useless Albert v/d Bergh at lock. The worst Bok lock in history. Closely followed by Muller his partner.
Then we move to the loose trio containing Cronje and Wannenberg....ouch......but wait for it Derrik Hougaard at 10.......Geez and oh my goodness Jaco Pretorious on the wing.
Selected by Jake White. That just confirms what a useless coach he was. He could not the obvious selections wrong as they were so blatantly obvious but Jake had no idea when it came to the broader squad.
Of the 3 pathetic sides selected I am not sure which is the worst. What sad excuses for coaches these guys are. Man I must have been spitting when those insulting sides were selected.
That insult of a side much like the other two were no representation of our young talent at the time. They only proved just how out of touch and ignorant the coaches were in selecting them.
