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FORUM / RUGBY /  To Haka Or Not To Haka?

To Haka Or Not To Haka?

Started by Augenöffner92 REPLIES1,923 VIEWS· 13 Aug 2018, 04:41
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AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
13 Aug 2018, 04:41
#1
13 Aug 2018, 04:41#1

new book from respected British journalist Peter Bills - The Jersey - is set to reignite discussion over the role the haka plays for the All Blacks. In this abridged extract from The Haka: An Expression of Identity chapter, ex-All Blacks Sir Colin Meads and Kees Meeuws reveal their own frustrations about the heavy use of the haka. And the team's mental skills coach, Gilbert Enoka, has revealed the All Blacks had previously felt "haka ed out" and some "hated" having to constantly perform the Ka Mate version.

The Ka Mate haka is almost 140 years old, first composed by Te Rauparaha, Ng?ti Toa Rangatira. The other haka are even older than Ka Mate, but it's doubtful it has ever been so widely talked about or debated. Is it fair?

Shouldn't the opposition get to perform their own dance after the haka? It excites opinions almost like nothing else in New Zealand and world rugby circles.

Former All Blacks first five  eighth Andrew Mehrtens has called it "too commercialised".

Ex England half back Matt Dawson reckons it has lost its mystique.

Another former All Black, prop forward Kees Meeuws, says, "It has lost its mana. It has become a showpiece. They should do it at certain test matches but not all.

"It was good a few years ago when they had a choice. But now they play 14 test matches a year and that's too much as far as the haka is concerned. We should either have it at home or just away from home, like it used to be. Not both."

A strange phenomenon, this. It affects all sorts of people in a variety of ways. Some are enraged, some supportive, some intrigued, some ambivalent.

Former Wallaby captain John Eales turned his back on it once and has regretted doing so ever since.

Whatever its form and whatever the occasion, there is no doubt the haka raises hackles.

Take Willie Anderson, bastion of Northern Ireland men, proud Ireland international rugby man, possessor of a bone crushing handshake and focus of a few memorable moments in Irish rugby history.

At Lansdowne Road, Dublin in 1989 against New Zealand, Ireland captain Anderson lined up his men on the halfway line to face the haka. They linked arms and were dragged ever closer to the dancing, gesticulating New Zealanders by Anderson, until they were almost in the All Blacks' faces.

But it didn't come close to un settling the All Blacks when the game started. They won 23–6.

In 2008, the Welsh let the haka pass and then mucked about for a few minutes, refusing to line up for the kick off. They presumably wanted to let the New Zealanders' adrenaline drain away.

It must have worked . . . to a degree. Wales had lost their two previous encounters with the All Blacks 3–41 and 10–45. So their 9–29 defeat this time was an improvement. Perhaps . . .

A few months before he died in 2017, Sir Colin Meads said of it, "We never did the haka in New Zealand, only overseas.

"But they put so much emphasis on the haka nowadays. They have two or three different versions. They even practise it.

"Our hakas were pretty rough. Mind you, you would be fined at the players' court session if you jumped out of sync with the others. But it has now become too big.

"They haka everything now. Some dignitary or sports person turns up or a film star at the airport and they haka them. It is ridiculous. I think it has become a celebrity thing. All the schools practise it.

"It should be done before games but as a form of respect to the Maori. We were haka ed out there for a while and still are."

John Eales is as respected a former player as any exists in world rugby. However, there was a time when most of New Zealand would cheerfully have strung him up from the nearest lamp post for dishonouring the haka.

Eales understands he got it wrong.

"It was my first test as captain and we didn't face the haka. I'd think that was disgraceful now. But I didn't understand it then. I suppose we were trying to detract from its power. But we ended up dissipating our own skills. We lost that match in Wellington 43–6. That is still the biggest losing margin ever by a Wallaby team against anyone. I always felt bad about what happened before that Test."

But does it give the All Blacks an advantage? Eales believes it gives them a way to connect as a team. "And any team that connects is a dangerous outfit."

Eales felt so mortified by that experience, that it festered. Years later, in 2017, he flew to Auckland with a film crew to make a television programme about his experience. He wanted to explore the ways and means of the haka. It was something of a cathartic exercise. He did it, he now says, because he was looking for an insight into it.

But as he began to do interviews and make the film, he came to realise that the real power of it lay not so much in the dance but in the way it connects with individuals and with the team. Perhaps also with the broader population of rugby for it is about their land.

"The Ka Mate haka talks of a warrior hiding from his enemies: 'I am going to die, I am going to live'. I reckon that is so powerful because there is this guy having a battle with himself about life. He is going through this internal conflict. He is hiding.

"It is a tale of survival against the odds. So when they do this they are connecting with their people, it is the battle that is coming. But this is an internal battle."

The former All Black prop Craig Dowd participated in the film John Eales made, together with Wayne Shelford and Frank Bunce.

In a general discussion on the pitch at Eden Park, Auckland, he revealed that one opposition team had messed about after the haka had been done, the challenge set. The All Blacks had found themselves on edge, said Dowd.

They were ready for war, but the opposition weren't. They were slow in removing their tracksuits; the All Blacks were ready and in their playing outfit. First, a trainer had to come onto the pitch to collect all their opponents' tracksuits. Then the opposition gathered in a huddle for last minute messages, which seemed to go on and on.

Then, very slowly, they made their way to their starting positions.

"By this time," said Dowd, "we'd lost the momentum. We knocked on the kick off, dropped a couple of passes and were all over the place for a while."

The antidote to the passion? Perhaps.

Irishman Tony Ward, for one, is convinced the haka is a valuable psychological weapon. "There is no doubt it gives them an advantage. By a million per cent. The haka stirs them up, gives them motivation at the expense of the opposition.

"The All Blacks have an advantage because they are physically active while they are doing it. In effect, they are warming up by doing it."

Maybe two or three minutes should be allowed for the opposition to warm up similarly, once the haka is completed, Ward suggests.

But what is its role in the context of the modern game?

Essentially, you feel that two questions arise.

Should world rugby continue to smile and tolerate it as a quirk of the old game? Particularly if, as some suggest, it is a clear advantage, an obvious motivational tool for the New Zealanders. That is a matter of opinion.

But one team's view is as worthy as the other's.

Secondly, and this is perhaps in a far broader sense, does New Zealand need to continue doing it on every single occasion? Is it not a special, unique part of New Zealand culture? Shouldn't it be respected as such, reserved perhaps for visiting heads of state, royalty or a major rugby occasion, such as a World Cup final? But just any old rugby match? With all due respect, is that not downgrading the whole thing? And does it not risk diminishing its exclusivity?

Does New Zealand need to do it any longer? Is the haka now a brand as well as an identity? And besides, is an expression of identity something this country still needs in 2018?

An argument may once have been made for it, along the lines of it representing a little country fighting above its weight against world opponents. Some may have seen it as the personification of a country that still needed the emotional and cultural crutch it brought.

But surely that is not the case nowadays?

Gilbert Enoka admits New Zealand rugby men themselves had reached something of a crossroads over the haka.

"There were a lot of guys saying they felt we were haka ed out. They said, 'We do the haka all the time, we have TV cameras in our faces'. They hated it. They said, 'All I want to do is get the damn thing done and over with'.

"They said, 'It's not for us anyway. It's just for the Maori people'. So we had a real crisis of identity where we had to sit down and say, 'Who are we as New Zealanders, who are we as All Blacks?' That was really where Kapa O Pangowas born."

Kapa O Pango, a new haka created by Derek Lardelli of Ng?ti Porou, took a year to choreograph. First performed before a 2005 Tri Nations international against South Africa in Dunedin, the words used were considered more specific to the rugby team than Ka Mate.

They refer to the warriors in black and the silver fern. For most of the New Zealand players, it was a more appropriate haka than Ka Mate.

Undeniably, the haka is a wonderful sporting tradition. But it is also a valuable motivational tool that gives New Zealand an advantage, whatever the percentage.

And then there is the issue of overkill, a danger to which the late Sir Colin Meads referred. A World Cup final? Clearly. But in all three test matches of one nation's tour to New Zealand?

Surely, before the first test of the series would be enough. Then the challenge is set.

by NZHerald.co.nz

DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
13 Aug 2018, 06:54
#2
13 Aug 2018, 06:54#2

Can someone tell me why the Haka has been linked to a game of rugby?

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
13 Aug 2018, 07:26
#3
13 Aug 2018, 07:26#3

...it (sport) is war minus the shooting...George Orwell,   "The Sporting Spirit "

haka = war dance

KM
Ka MateClub Pro246 posts
13 Aug 2018, 08:36
#4
13 Aug 2018, 08:36#4

We do the haka before rugby games because we like to see the Yarpies needing a change of underwear before the game even starts.

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
13 Aug 2018, 08:42
#5
13 Aug 2018, 08:42#5

Apparently the term Haka is a generic Maori word for all kinds of dances or ceremonial practices involving movement. In Maori tradition there are many kinds of Haka. The original thinking was that the body becomes a series of instruments, expressing many emotions etc through movement. A sort of symphony. So it's not necessarily associated with war. The real war dances were the whakatü waewae, the tütü ngärahu and the peruperu. So a Haka can be thought as a physical poetic expression and may be composed for various reasons. 

The Haka we associate with the All Blacks, also the most commonly known Haka, is the 'Ka Mate' Haka which is attributed to Te Rauparaha, war leader of the Ngati Toa tribe. Ka Mate is about the cunning ruse of Te Rauparaha to outwit his enemies and is actually interpreted as the celebration of life over death. 

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
13 Aug 2018, 11:18
#6
13 Aug 2018, 11:18#6

Leave the Haka be. For me it is something that just adds to the occasion. I have only watched one AB vs Springbok game live, and I was a little disappointed that I could not hear the actual haka, because the crowd was making such a noise, but I still enjoyed how it ultimately built up the start of the game fantastically. Anyway, a number of teams do Hakas, and nobody is complaining about any of the others. Its only because of the AB's success that silly things like this come under the spotlight. 

I see the article notes the adrenaline rush that the AB's gain as an advantage. That is crap for two reasons. Firstly, any team standing up to the Haka will have just as much adrenaline coursing through their veins because of it, and you can add to that the fact that they are about to play the AB's. Secondly, it is my understanding that over motivating players at the start of a match in any contact sport often results in them making a lot of stupid adrenaline induced mistakes at the start of the game because they get too emotional and aggressive. 


I like it, I think it adds to the spectacle, and I think to get rid of it would be a loss to rugby.   

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Aug 2018, 11:29
#7
13 Aug 2018, 11:29#7

Gilbert Enoka admits New Zealand rugby men themselves had reached something of a crossroads over the haka.

"There were a lot of guys saying they felt we were haka ed out. They said, 'We do the haka all the time, we have TV cameras in our faces'. They hated it. They said, 'All I want to do is get the damn thing done and over with'.

Well personally i find the haka hilarious. Grown men sticking out their tongues, rolling their eyes and slitting throats etc about sums up the daft Kbbs! Hahahahahahahahaha. Then we have wee beau bar rat trying to look real tough and mean Hahahahahahahaha. You have that glazed insane type of look of a crazy loon! Amazing stuff!

No i would never support doing away with the hahahahahaka! Hands off the haka please. You wee abs are paid well enough to perform the haka for a crowd paying to be entertained. So much as it embarrasses you and pains you to do it please do your job!

Beeno supporting the haka and standing with his kbbs fans on the board on this issue .


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Aug 2018, 11:57
#8
13 Aug 2018, 11:57#8

Oh come now Cloudster, you have to admit there is a very comic aspect to the haka and its quite evident some wee abs are embarrassed by it hahahahahahahaha

Anyhow i firmly support the haka, Truly nz's crowning cultural achievement! Always look forward to the haka and hope i and many others in nz will not be robbed of the pleasure

Beeno upholding nz cultural values! 


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Aug 2018, 12:35
#9
13 Aug 2018, 12:35#9

Trying to stop the wee abs doing their haka vs mean spirited! Those wee abs too tired to do the haka need to be Fired!!!! Dont put up with these bozos Kiwis!!!

All Blacks coach Steve Hansen has rejected suggestions from former players that the team's famous pre-match haka has been devalued by overuse.(Current players to one would think)

The world champions perform the traditional Maori challenge before every test match but former New Zealand prop Kees Meeuws told British author Peter Bills the foot-stomping, chest-thumping ritual had become too familiar.

"It has lost its mana (prestige). It has become a showpiece," he said in an excerpt from Bills' book "The Jersey" published in the New Zealand Herald.

"They should do it at certain test matches but not all... now they play 14 test matches a year and that's too much as far as the haka is concerned."

Meeuws' sentiments were echoed by the legendary Colin Meads, who told Bills before his death last year that "we were haka-ed out there for a while and still are".

Hansen defended the haka, which critics say gives New Zealand an intimidatory edge before tests, saying it was an All Blacks' tradition. (intimidatory!! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA)

"We don't use it any different than we've ever used it. It's part of the commencement of the game and it means a lot to this group," he told reporters late Sunday.

"They understand all about it, we understand it's not for anybody else other than ourselves and we draw a lot from it."

The All Blacks used to perform the haka before selected tour matches but it now features at all of their international fixtures.

There are two versions – the traditional Ka Mate, which they first performed in 1905, and the Kapa O Pango, a version specially commissioned for the team that was introduced a century later.

The ritual has often been a flashpoint in the past as opposing teams attempt to show they will not be cowed.

Ireland famously advanced towards the All Blacks at La nsdowne Road in 1989 until the teams' skippers were eyeball to eyeball, while David Campese pointedly ignored the haka before Australia beat New Zealand in the 1991 World Cup semifinal.

In 2011, France were fined when they formed a flying-V and marched into the All Blacks' half before the World Cup final – a punishment that critics said showed authorities had become too sensitive about "disrespecting" the haka.

Look oaks most nz  nutballs love their haka. Why be mean to them and try and limit their joy (And Beeno's amusement) of the Haka. i mean really!


DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
13 Aug 2018, 12:47
#10
13 Aug 2018, 12:47#10

I thought my question was simple enough and I thank Brycy for a plausible explanation. Funny how the idea of banning the Haka popped it's head when there was no suggestion by me or anyone else to have it banned. Funny also how something simple goes south very quickly on this forum.

My ongoing interest found this from Wikipedia...

The haka is a traditional war cry, war dance, or challenge in M?ori culture. It is a posture dance performed by a group, with vigorous movements and stamping of the feet with rhythmically shouted accompaniment. War haka were originally performed by M?ori warriors before a battle, proclaiming their strength and prowess in order to intimidate the opposition. Haka are also performed to welcome distinguished guests, or to acknowledge great achievements, occasions or funerals. Kapa haka groups are very common in schools.

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
13 Aug 2018, 13:15
#11
13 Aug 2018, 13:15#11

If the ABs didnt do the Haka before a game I would take it to mean they have no respect for you .At my Aussie father in laws funeral I did the Nga Puhi haka as a mark of my great respect .

The ABs haka is theirs as is the  NZ army Haka .The other 3 Kiwis in the Aussie army team I captained joined me in a response to the NZ army boys.NZ peacekeepers have their own as well .

As far as being an advantage like many ABs have said its quite draining and for the first 2-3 minutes of the game your a bit flat ,quite true.

Beanfuck you know fuck all about our people or culture so just fuck off theres a good little half wit.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Aug 2018, 14:06
#12
13 Aug 2018, 14:06#12

This is a NZ cultural matter that should be dealt with by the New Zealanders and only they can  decide on.   The issue cannot be dealt with on the basis above.   If the NZ rugby authorities decide to abolish same it is their decision and has nothing to do with outsiders.       

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
13 Aug 2018, 14:40
#13
13 Aug 2018, 14:40#13

The Haka (which I did actually research thoroughly) is definitely overused. So much so that they began using the Kapa O Pango as the real challenge for important tests. I think the players themselves have spoken quite emphatically, as the article clearly attests to. It became a marketing gimmick. With greater quantity comes less value. If the Haka is performed for Canada and the like every game, how special is it when it's in a final? The Kapa O Pango definitely does sum that up, being a means to distinguish between a 'real' test from any other test in the calendar year. 

A few interesting tidbits about the Kapa O Pango (My favourite All Black Haka):

This Haka was specially composed by Derek Lardelli to reflect the multi-cultural makeup of the All Blacks. It was first unveiled for the Boks in the penultimate 2005 Tri Nations fixture which decided the champion. I remember it well, it was a thrill to see it come out of nowhere. There is some controversy over the throat slitting motion, and I say that is a far cry from most things I see, particularly from neo-libs.

Derek Lardelli himself is an extraordinary Maori artist. He is regarded as one of the finest Ta Moko artists in New Zealand. Ta Moko being the Maori practice of marking the skin with permanent ink, which leaves grooves in the skin. Thus a specialised form of tattooing. Derek has a deep respect for Maori traditions and has been prominent in explaining the spiritual and cultural significance of the practices of his people. He spans several artistic mediums, including carving, Haka composition and graphic design. He is also a researcher of whakapapa (Maori genealogy), tribal history and kaikorero (male speaker). 

Here are the lyrics and translation for the Kapa O Pango:


Kapa o pango kia whakawhenua au i ahau!

Let me become one with the land

Hi aue, hi! 

Ko Aotearoa e ngunguru nei!

This is our land that rumbles

Au, au, aue ha!

And it’s my time! It’s my moment!

Ko Kapa o Pango e ngunguru nei!

This defines us as the All Blacks

Au, au, aue ha!

It’s my time! It’s my moment!

I ahaha!

Ka tu te ihiihi

Our dominance

Ka tu te wanawana

Our supremacy will triumph

Ki runga ki te rangi e tu iho nei, 

tu iho nei, hi!

And will be placed on high

Ponga ra!

Silver fern!

Kapa o Pango, aue hi!

All Blacks!

Ponga ra!

Silver fern!

Kapa o Pango, aue hi, ha!

All Blacks!


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Aug 2018, 14:41
#14
13 Aug 2018, 14:41#14

Ou maaaikve what worries me is that the kiwis themselves seem to want to vastly restrain the use of the haka! One understand s why but why spoil all the fun the haka represents! Messing. Look how insane he is right now! Hahaha hahahahaha ready to be locked up!

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
13 Aug 2018, 14:45
#15
13 Aug 2018, 14:45#15

When all is said and done its OUR tradition and the vast bulk of opposing players are fine with it .

If you dont like it dont watch ,simple enough for a simpleton like beanydick.

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
13 Aug 2018, 14:49
#16
13 Aug 2018, 14:49#16

No probs Cloudy it was the most respectful thing I could imagin e to give to a man of Mana .

All you saffas can get a basic idea of the Haka from Wikipeadia but you will never "get " what it means to us.

If our people choose to do it its up to them and their opposition .It is after all for the players not the audience so outside input means fuck all.

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
13 Aug 2018, 14:50
#17
13 Aug 2018, 14:50#17

Mikey is spot on too !

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
13 Aug 2018, 14:54
#18
13 Aug 2018, 14:54#18

Wardad, why do you have to stifle discussion? This was a nice opportunity to learn about another culture and actually tie it into the rich heritage of the All Blacks. And as for it's frequency of use (Ka Mate), the players have spoken emphatically for the restraining of its use. I'm surprised that you wouldn't agree considering the spiritual significance of the Haka, which is an ambassador for your culture and all Hakas, is being watered down into a gimmick on the level of a Nike commercial. A money maker. Anyway, I just thought it'd be interesting to touch on a few things. 

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
13 Aug 2018, 15:39
#19
13 Aug 2018, 15:39#19

I don't claim to know everything, but my interest in cultures in general greatly exceeds Wikipedia. I have extensively studied genetic, linguistic and historical foundations of many tribal cultures of North America, Polynesia and Malenesia. I actually have some Native American ancestry, which does appear to share some connection with those peoples who migrated to South America and Oceania. 

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,253 posts
13 Aug 2018, 16:03
#20
13 Aug 2018, 16:03#20

My favourite Haka was the throat slitting Haka.  


GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
13 Aug 2018, 16:57
#21
13 Aug 2018, 16:57#21

Don't comment on what you don't understand and show some respect!

I'm fairly conservative but I love this moving song from Maori/Samoan tradition...not a fan of Disney but somehow this pictures the nature and intrique of traditions that come from Islanders of the Pacific...NZ'ers I'm your friend.

That adventurous, bold spirit that existed long ago still has left a mark in your sporting prowess...you certainly know the way...I guess all other nations are jealous and will nit pick whatever you do.

This animation is almost spot-on and is quite brilliant, Disney got this one right, I think.

https://youtu.be/ubZrAmRxy_M

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
13 Aug 2018, 18:10
#22
13 Aug 2018, 18:10#22

That was indeed a very interesting video Cloudy, thanks for sharing it with us. I wish I could say South Africa has come a long way, but I'd be lying. It just amazes me how much the rest of the world tolerates it. Morality is only ever important when a political or economic agenda arises. That said, it was fitting that this young man was able to bring a touching repose to the legacy of his grandfather. He seems bright and endowed with good values. I have a lot of respect for that. 

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
13 Aug 2018, 18:20
#23
13 Aug 2018, 18:20#23

@plump ...."the players have spoken emphatically for the restraining of its use."

only a a couple have from what i can see have no affiliation with Maori culture ...for instance from the ones you have quoted Andrew Merhtens was born in South Africa and Kees Meuws has said he's been misquoted in the article...

...although it would be fair to say the haka is not as popular down in the South Island where there are fewer Maori...you will notice the Highlanders don't have a haka but Maori culture is big part of the Chiefs culture in the centre of the North Island..

... every few years you'll get articles like this that take a swing at the haka,,,but it's not going anywhere sorry to disappoint anyone..

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
13 Aug 2018, 18:29
#24
13 Aug 2018, 18:29#24

There has been considerable misunderstanding in interpreting this article. There is noone "taking a swing" at the Ka Mate. Rather, the question is, is it being overused for every little thing? Is it exhausting to keep doing at the drop of a hat? Does it lose some of its magic? As I said before, the creation of the Kapa O Pango does reflect a need for the All Blacks to have something that distinguishes a real challenge from just every other thing. I definitely think there is something to this. The Ka Mate is not revered like it once was, it's not even seen externally of New Zealand as special. Just another Cirque Du Soleil performance to entertain. Rugby in general has a problem with increasing the volume of everything to be even more entertaining. It has the opposite effect. 

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
13 Aug 2018, 18:44
#25
13 Aug 2018, 18:44#25

..interpret how ever you like but it would be safe to say many countries like England and SA feel that it gives NZ an unfair psychological advantage over them and would like to see it reigned in...so they try and convince us it's being overused...sorry but we don't buy their BS..

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
13 Aug 2018, 19:31
#26
13 Aug 2018, 19:31#26

I think it would be better in the eyes of South Africa or England if it was only shown to them, instead of to every other team that shows up. Nobody is wanting New Zealand to be culturally castrated. 

GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
13 Aug 2018, 19:32
#27
13 Aug 2018, 19:32#27
The Ka Mate is not revered like it once was, it's not even seen externally of New Zealand as special. Just another Cirque Du Soleil performance to entertain. Rugby in general has a problem with increasing the volume of everything to be even more entertaining. It has the opposite effect.

Well, that is a sad thing in this indifferent slowly becoming sterile world with no flavours, culture, tradition and old fashioned courtesies and respect diminishing...God help us!


PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
13 Aug 2018, 19:34
#28
13 Aug 2018, 19:34#28

Umm I wasn't involved in this conversation Brycy.

Anyway, if you want my two cents here it is.

I'm sure the Haka means more to Kiwis than we saffas will ever understand. Great, I'm glad you have something special that means a lot to you. Long may it continue and long may it bring courage, good sentiment, respect and everything else that comes with it. Why would anyone want to deprive you of that?

Should sports teams be forced to stand there like school children and watch it? Should special allowance be made for it it? That's the real question.

When exactly did it become a rule that NZ have a right of compulsion prior to the whistle being blown?

A) turn your back and you're a coward

B) do your own thing while it's delivered and you're disrespectful

C) Come up with your own song and dance and you'll no doubt look a fool...be cause not everyone has a traditionally fitting war dance. 

Solution - stand there because there's nothing else you can do really.

If as Wardad so clearly put it, the rest of us will never understand what it truly means, then aren't you wasting your time? Worse still, isn't it being a little self centered to make us all watch a show that you know we dont get? In some way then, you're doing it for yourselves only, right? Isn't that selfish?

Have your haka and I hope it only becomes more special for you each time you do it. 

Just stop confusing it's meaning to you with a divine right executable on the rest of the world...many who don't give a shyte about it.

Not giving a shyte, by the way, is as divine a right as you'll ever have. It trumps your haka...sorry.

TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
13 Aug 2018, 19:40
#29
13 Aug 2018, 19:40#29

Come up with your own song and dance and you'll no doubt look a fool...be cause not everyone has a traditionally fitting war dance.


The solution was to settle in a country that have people who have dances and can dance. Which is another thing SA quotas do not have and can not perform.

Terminate rugby in SA.

BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
13 Aug 2018, 19:40
#30
13 Aug 2018, 19:40#30

...sorry plump i keep getting you and yr tag team mate mixed up because you both sound exactly the same except one of you puts a gap between his sentences...

TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
13 Aug 2018, 19:41
#31
13 Aug 2018, 19:41#31

It will keep going as long as it makes money. People buy tickets to see the ABs perform the dance.

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
13 Aug 2018, 23:25
#32
13 Aug 2018, 23:25#32

Fair enough Augie but we are a bit defensive because the likes of beandork and plum are wont to attack it .

As I said its really only for the two teams anything else is incidental.Enjoy it or not ,I for one am not a big fan of English halfwits singing part of a spiritual slave song that has fuck all to do with them [ I recall as a teenager welcoming English visitors to our school who strangely enough performed /mimed a version of swing low as a response to our schools Haka].

Maybe we should ban all those national anthems while we are at it.

DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
14 Aug 2018, 02:33
#33
14 Aug 2018, 02:33#33

It's a great pity that what could have been a healthy debate has been soured by a defensive attitude and paranoia. 

A question to our Kiwi friends, don't you think that the throat slitting bit was way over the top and let me remind you that kids,young people, watch rugby? 


DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
14 Aug 2018, 02:53
#34
14 Aug 2018, 02:53#34

Thanks for answering the question. But, was that a yes or no?

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Aug 2018, 02:54
#35
14 Aug 2018, 02:54#35

Denny have you ever translated the French national anthem ?

Thanks to constant attacks on the Haka as I stated we are very wary of "debate " about it by outsiders ,its usually cover for some sly backhanded attacks under  the guise of "debate "although in this instance that may not be so .But as you can see from beandick and plum its just an opening to pour shit on it.

Be like one of us Kiwis having a "debate " about aprtheid just so we can hammer you about it.

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Aug 2018, 02:59
#36
14 Aug 2018, 02:59#36

Oh and Denny if the "throat slitting " gesture is so wicked what do you think of  the spearing gesture in the Sipi Tau "

If you can stand to watch large muscular dudes hammer each other in tackles I dont think that gesture will be all that worrysome ,and if someone is such a delicate little petal that they cant handle it maybe they should take up macrame ,not knitting though as it has pointy things that might hurt ya.

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Aug 2018, 03:02
#37
14 Aug 2018, 03:02#37

Remember that Mason prick making fun of the Kiwis Haka in the RL ? Kidwell had him stretchered off 2 minutes later.And Mason was boen and bred in NZ the dumbarse!

How are ya Cloudy all set for the Bled ?

DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
14 Aug 2018, 03:07
#38
14 Aug 2018, 03:07#38

Wardad, I regard myself as a straight shooter and a fair sort of fella and  perhaps I should say I try to be. If I felt that the Haka for whatever reason should be banned then I would have said so, instead I asked what to me was an honest question. Apart from one plausible response the rest showed a lack of respect. 


WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Aug 2018, 03:09
#39
14 Aug 2018, 03:09#39

Anyway debate about the Haka usually consists of outsiders pissing and moaning about how it somehow confers an advantage to the ABs ,conveniently forgetting that the ABs used to do quite alright Haka or no .Just ask Wales if not having to face the Haka helped them [2006].

Many outsiders just look for something anything totry and drag down the ABs ,its just jealousy else why dont they attack the Fijians SAmoans ,Tongans etc .

The Aussies have recently debate having an Aboriginal version for the Wallabies ,my Missus and kids want no part of that and it would look stupid considering it has never been part of both Wallaby or Aussie culture in general 

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Aug 2018, 03:10
#40
14 Aug 2018, 03:10#40

Cloudy  ya should check it out on youtube ,its hilarious !

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