Transformation targets . . .

The single biggest challenge facing Allister Coetzee is to build a Springbok squad for the 2019 with 50% players of colour of which 60% are black.

In a 31 player RWC squad that roughly equates to 16 whites, 6 coloureds and 9 blacks.

Could we pick such a squad today with 15 deserving players of colour? Let's see . . . blacks in bold and coloureds in italics . . .

Fullbacks: Cheslin Kolbe, Warrick Gelant
Wings: Jamba Ulengo, Seabelo Senatla, Lwazi Mvovo, JP Pietersen, Courtnall Skosan
Centres: Howard Mnisi, Lionel Mapoe, Damian De Allende
Flyhalves: Elton Jantjies
Scrumhalves: Rudy Paige
Loosies: Oupa Mohoje, Skuna Notshe, Tim Agaba, Tera Mtembu, Nizaam Carr,
Locks: ?
Props: Beast Mtawarira, Trevor Nyakane
Hookers: Scarra Ntubeni, Edgar Marutlelle, Bongi Mbonambi, Bandise Maku

Please feel free to add or suggest any other players, I'm sure I'm missing plenty. As far as I know Damian de Allende qualifies as a coloured.

Okay, I'm sure not everyone will agree with me that all those players are deserving and obviously we're not going to pick all 4 hookers, but those numbers do indicate that perhaps we're not as badly off as many think we are. We also have a few more years to develop the likes of Ox Nche, Garth April etc.

Having said that, while I think we might be able to field a competent team in 2019 that appeases the politicians, many of those players will still not be the best in their position and that will almost certainly make the difference between pitching up for the tournament and actually winning it.

 I frankly am not interested in Springbok Rugby any longer.  Racial selection quotas will destroy the game and I am not a racialist - people should be selected on merit. 
I can only see how the game deteriorates in future and we go down to the Bafana Bafana rating level.   Team sport in SA should be banned from participation internationally because of racist quotas.   
Will in future only support the AB's - sad to say.    
  

Ou Maaik, I know you're retired or else approaching retirement, but did you feel the same way about quotas in the workplace? Would you refuse to go to work and earn a living because of quotas?

I've never understood why so many South Africans get so indignant about quotas in rugby and cricket but they meekly accept all this BEE nonsense in the workplace which - unlike sport - actively affects their livelihoods . . . or at the very least the futures of their children and grandchildren.

 This outrageous racism doesn't phase ou rooitwit. His supine position in this matter compares favourably with his supine position re refs.
If he were in the UK he would doubtless be campaigning with the hard  left for the mass migration into the country.If anybody knows how to help poor rooitwit t o spill the beans . He appears to be a lost cause.

 Do I detect a spark of non PC with our rooitwit!!!!
The discrimation on the world place is far more serious a matter

 I have never in my career - bar in the last six months I worked - have been personally affected by BEE and as a pensioner afterwards I have seen how the work place where I used to work, has gone to the dogs as a result.
Discrimination on racial grounds is and will always be an abomination - that is why I was treated dreadfully by the previous government when i opposed their shenanigans.  The present situation is as bad as it was under the previous Government - if not worse, because of incompetence and bribery and corruption.              

 The reason rooitwit is that they have been brain washed to accept a whole string of things.Why do EU countries accept the take over of their countries by migrants. 

So effectively
-30% of the team must be black only- 20% coloured (or black)

-50% or less white
If the Springboks have this transformation target- it might make sense to do this same thing at Super18 level to make sure the Allister Coetzee has an ample playing pool of talent to choose from. 
The big question though is will this transformation "quota" target continue to change over the years. 
e.g. 2018-  less than 40% white       2022- less than 30% white       2026- less than 20% white       2030- less than 10% white etc.,etc. 
The fact remains that the majority of the playing pool of players in SA is made from Afri-kaans white players, followed by Afri-kaans-coloured players. If the player pool does not increase from other ethnic groups- performance of the boks will deteriorate. This could probably increase the number of young players moving overseas.

 Ou maaaikie appears to have woken up form his anc slumber at long last!
How reality is a great teacher.

 Oaks I did warn you to think of getting interested in another sport. I have my tennis to fall back on as well as golf. These two sports cannot be affected by the anc!Beeno well prepared.

 Finally something we can debate ...
Redneck ... yes there are indeed players of colour out there available for selection. ... but whether they're truly deserving is another story.
Of the props you've selected none of them are better than any of the current white props in the country. Not one. 
I like Marutlelle from the Kings. He's impressed so far but is he better than Marx, Acker, Coetzee or Strauss?

None of your loosies qualify as far as I'm concerned. They are all average provincial players at best. None of them can come even close to a Kriel or Vermeulen. 
Paige is by a long shot not up to standard ... neither is Mnisi. Not at test level.
I like Mapoe. He should be given a shot and De Allende is a monster worthy of his spot in the squad ... but that doesn't mean they should oust Vorster, Odendaal, Venter, Gates or Swanepoel.  
Gelant and Ulenga are showing some form and I like them both ... but that's where it comes to a grinding halt. The others you've mention at outside back are not what I would call world beaters.
Selecting the Bok team should not be a matter of making up the numbers ... as your suggesting. 
I can see what your trying to do ... and I'm a little surprised ... 
You are prepared to sacrifice the best of the best so that you have a "Bok" team to cheer for. In other words you too have fallen under the dreaded acceptance of mediocrity ... to save the peace.
Unfortunately most white South Africans have gone the same route and because of it we're watching less cricket than we used to ... if any at all.
I will struggle to cheer for a race based sports team ... so I'm not even going to bother trying.
It breaks my friggin heart ...  

Klown, I'm not condoning quotas, just questioning whether we can field a decent side if we apply the numbers that the politicians are insisting on.

I also stated clearly that even if many of those players are test quality, that doesn't necessarily mean they are the best in their position and not picking the absolute best players would likely be the difference between winning or losing the next RWC.

 I understand, Redneck.
It's just the way it is in this country. 
We either accept it for what it is or we do without. 
The only power we have over this is to boycott all test matches. Leave SARU with empty stadiums. Watch something else on TV.
However we both know that that will never happen. Most have accepted mediocrity as a set standard in this country. They will still flood into the stadiums and cheer "their" team on.
And I'll take up fishing ... or something just as mundane ...   

 There is just one little problem in all of this - the matter can end up in the Constitutional Court where there is a clear and strict interpretation of the Constitution - namely that race should not be a basis for selection as it is discriminatory in nature.  
Courts have previously ruled against employment based on race and not merit - somebody is going to shout blue murder and take the issue to Court.  And players are in the employ of SARU or the franchises and the courts are based on previous decisions in individual cases are likely to declare that quotas are discriminatory and not acceptable.  So SARU will likely end up in a pile of rubbish with their quota system.        

 There's common ground across most of the posters...not all.
1) No-one is in favour of race based selections.
2) Not everyone is saying Coetzee is a good coach yet no-one has stepped forward with an alternative. I'm saying he is our best South African option.
One thing is clear, traditional forward based rugby is going to be swept aside but it remains to be seen whether the re-badged Bok  is going to bring more success in the long run than the old brand of kicking the leather off the ball.

 Denny
Where did you get your last statement from.  Under Coetzee the backline play of the Stormers and WP was a disaster and it will continue unabated in the Proteas team.  They will still kick the leather off the ball - as bad as it was under Meyer.   

 Denny
Where did you get your last statement from.  Under Coetzee the backline play of the Stormers and WP was a disaster and it will continue unabated in the Proteas team.  They will still kick the leather off the ball - as bad as it was under Meyer.   

Just another one of the world's insoluble problems. Equal opportunity is a decent principle....we should all agree on that. Does that mean managed representation. Yes, if you conclude that the status quo implies unequal opportunities in the system going all the way back. But does it? Or does it imply unequal interest?

Exploring the topic rationally is impossible in a politically charged world....so then it becomes a power game. It appears the power game has inevitably tilted in the direction of managed representation. The only counter force is economics. Can the diminished cash flow of a weakened team have enough impact to raise any doubts? Probably not.

The 2015 WC may be  the last performance of the great Springboks.

Most of you guys have written off your team already

 JW
Am I not welcome as a new AB Supporter?

Mark my words: No transformation targets will be set or enforced because the cANCer regime got the first prize, namely a transformed coach. He will look after them, provide them with complementary tickets, invite them for as many free lunches as they wish for. Free air tickets (1st class) and top rated seats at stadiums will be on the house.  

Good post Rooi.
Next WC is still 3.5 years away and if you look at the list you provided, most of those players have "come to light" in the past 4 years and represent some of our most explosive players. What will the next 3.5 years reveal as far as non-white talent? 
Just trying to put a positive spin on it - look at how the All Blacks have changed since 1995 and it has paid dividends. The NFL, NBA, MLB are all dominated by non-white athletes.
Of course the quota is wrong, but its not the end of the world. Boks will drop a notch but not solely as a result of quotas. There are systemic issues and a weak currency that are bigger factors. As it is - a decent team could be picked right now from that list that met the criteria.
The big concern is whether the overseas talent drain on white players starts at an even younger age as they see their chances of national representation diminishing.

 JW all the guys except one are realists.
Over the years the Springboks teams have been hampered by the ANC and SARU in selecting the 15 best players to represent SA on the rugby field at any one time.
This has had serious implications for players (other than dark skinned players) who are the best and have been overlooked due to transformation.
My motto has always been: Select the best not the rest.
But hopefully...... world rugby bosses will stand up and refuse to allow RSA rugby players to play any internationals and/or for overseas teams while this situation lasts in the old country.
The only guy who appears to agree with the plan as laid out by SARU and with their coach select is that guy from Oz......my guess is that he is related to Coetzee.
Sad, sad situation for SA rugby.

 CleverMike, how could you support any team with "crap forwards"?

 jw we beat the abs on our day when playing at about 70%. But we will be down to 50% - and also against bent down under refs. To becomes a farce. B est you all watch tennis oaks!I am willing to expalin the game to youas i had doen so with rugby.

JW 
No problem - they remain crap, but they are better than the Aussies and the Poms.  So I may be a critical supporter at times - but a supporter nonetheless.

 Beeno, do the scoreboards count in tennis?

 Yes they do and the better players wins. Its very difficult to crook. Not a game kbbs play I observe! Join the dots!

 Beeno, perhaps you will see things more clearly when you stop blubbering. One must remain optimistic 
Lord have mercy on us all when the "blond comb-over" takes the inevitable fall.

 Isn't it funny how the sudden re-appearance of Arthur in the John coincides with the announcement of Coetzee as the new Bok coach. This bitter bigot rarely makes a rugby contribution but he announces his re-appearance with the condemnation of Coetzee, SARU and the ANC. Let me be clear, I have no objection to any critique of the above and I have often enough weighed in on SARU and the ANC but there's the stench of a racist about when it comes from a bitter little expat who had to pack up and leave his white privileges behind in the old country and learn to exist without the privilege of a white skin as a normal person in frost bitten Canada.
Hell brother....I feel your pain.

 Why what's racist about Arthurs post, Denny?
Are there fabricated lies in any of the content?
I see none.
He's just bold enough to call a spade a spade. 
Hats off to the lad!

 Geez Denny. That is a bit rich and  reeks of "pot calling the kettle black".

Come on. mate. Be honest. Doesn't this also sound just a tad racist?:

".......a bitter little expat who had to pack up and leave his white privileges behind in the old country and learn to exist without the privilege of a white skin as a normal person in frost bitten Canada."

 No, not quite......but if you believe I'm a racist then go ahead. These forums have a long history of bitter expats who vent their frustrations from the distance of their new country. Arthur John in particular never posts about rugby, his only appearances are to slag off the ANC or SARU....with an "I told you so" racial innuendo. Point me to the last rugby post he' s made. Is it coincidental that he makes an appearance with the appointment of Coetzee? And are you telling me that whites didn't benefit from their pigmentation under Apartheid? And that there were/are whites that had to leave those privileges behind when they moved into normal western societies? Perhaps I misunderstand, perhaps I have no idea what life was like for whites under Apartheid, ....feel free to enlighten me. And also tell me that there is absolutely no truth in the quotation that you've extracted from my post.

 "Perhaps I misunderstand, perhaps I have no idea what life was like for whites under Apartheid,"

Exactly. That is why there are perceptions that all whites had to do was to sit back and  have afrms, etc handed out to them. They were "allocated" university degrees. They did not have to work hard to build  up their businesses. What is more, they did not lift a finger to assist blacks. They did not give them any job opportunities. They did not provide any housing at all, etc, etc. There were no schools for blacks. There were no hospitals for blacks. Blacks were all lying in filth in hospital corridors.

Mate, it is time that there is some acknowledgement for the good things that happened in the Apartheid era as well.

My mother was a ward sister at the "black wards" at the local provincial hospital for years. I visited her at work on many occasions as a kid. I can tell you that I have seen the wards and the attitude of the staff. Those wards were clinically clean and the beds were absolutely clean as you can get. The black and white nurses worked proudly shoulder to shoulder to provide the best medical services.

My grand father was the manager of the hostel at the Marble Lime mine in Marble Hall and I have gone with him on a number of occasions, when he had to take sick and/or lightly injured to Mathlala Hospital, a "balck hopsital" near Denilton. The level of service was the same.

There are many examples that can be mentioned but I will leave it at that. Fact is that by far the most blacks are much worse off now, than what they were. The only ones who are really much better off is the few of the so-called black middle class and the super rich who got to the top through "the old-boys net".

The ones who have started off with "nothing" and became rich are few and far between.

 "Mate, it is time that there is some acknowledgement for the good things that happened in the Apartheid era as well" 
Now there's a laugh.....typical though, it's what I expected.
Let me re-phrase the bit you've extracted from my post...
Perhaps I misunderstand, perhaps I have no idea what life was like for the oppressed under Apartheid,"

 Mikey you can come to the dark side ,just stop moaning about the players !Especially when they as a team have such a fabulous record .Its pretty cool watching old games on youtube especially the last 7 years .90 % chance of watching a winning game hehehe....

 Of course blacks are worse off now in South Africa.

The wealth has been consumed, most of the time channelled abroad.

Gold? Down. Mines are reaching depletion. Gold was sent to the IMF fund.

It is like partying. When you are late to the party, nothing is left to drink and eat. Partiers have consumed it all.

Working hard? Well, that is just another name for consuming hard.

Now that SA faces a demand in training from a larger population, resources to sustain the activity are no longer there.

They were consumed. They were destroyed.

Now SA will destroy the resources in the neighbouring countries. And blame those who have not destroyed it.

That is the way it works.

"The wealth has been consumed, most of the time channelled abroad."
By whom?
"They were consumed. They were destroyed"
By whom?

 Euh... Lets produce a PC answer to that: by people who did not consume or consumed little?

Usually, that is the PC  answer.

Other than that, the answer is obvious and very often include people (or their descendents) who keep claiming merit.

"By whom?"

Pffffffffffffffhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Man, is this guy naive or what?

"By whom?"

LMAO!