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Watch: Rassie Erasmus video that everybody is talking about

Started by Flashdakota73 REPLIES3,693 VIEWS· 29 Jul 2021, 21:19
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RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
30 Jul 2021, 12:16
#41
30 Jul 2021, 12:16#41
I see . . . so basically what you guys are saying is Rassie's response after the game should have been something along the lines of "Well done Lions, no excuses for now but if we review the game and find any reffing mistakes we'll whine and bitch like little babies."
Is that what you're saying?
Personally, I much prefer a coach who takes it on the chin and let's his team do their talking on the pitch . . . but each to his own . . .
SE
SebPro2,680 posts
30 Jul 2021, 12:49
#42
30 Jul 2021, 12:49#42

The misunderstanding and misinterpretation has been created by taking the entire thing out of context. There's a difference between approach and reproach. Rassie simply wanted questions answered (not to reproach or disrespect or an excuse) but  approached Berry after the game to ask questions and answers about certain interpretaions that perhaps needed to be  understood by the coach and clarification and indeed by the players itself, one in particular foul play law question if dangerous play or not (player held back without the ball)  generates a different decision...a very fair question.

The ref did not make himself available to answer those genuine questions in time so that preparation and training before next match could take this into account...you can only fix infringements if you understand them properly. 

There's a big difference between questions, answers and excuses.

Refs should be called to account if they cannot interpret and give correct answers to rulings that are not clear or understood.

That led to frustration, you only want answers to your mistakes so you can correct them. At least that's the way I see it.

TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
30 Jul 2021, 13:03
#43
30 Jul 2021, 13:03#43

Or one simple possibility: the first non rugby game is dead, no way to alter it. It remains two games (that SA will turn into two non rugby games)

The pointing out of biased reffing is not meant to alter the dead non rugby game but to influence the next potentially rugby games to come.

No excuses for the first (non rugby) rugby but excuses to come if the reffing is kept the same.

In other words, this guy works on changing the future.

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
30 Jul 2021, 14:39
#44
30 Jul 2021, 14:39#44
"why is it okay to not only question, but also to criticize and denigrate coaches, players, management ... but when you dare question an official you're being a "bad sportsman"?"
Well, being criticized for a poor performance is one thing . . . there's no coach or player that hasn't had a bad day . . . but being accused of cheating, bias or dishonesty is something completely different. 
The one is a criticism of your play or your management on one particular day. The other is calling your character and your integrity into question. If you can't tell the difference then you should be worried. 
AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
30 Jul 2021, 15:19
#45
30 Jul 2021, 15:19#45

As far as I'm concerned, unless a ref made a clear cut call that killed your chances of winning, you have no right to point the finger when you play badly. The Boks were abysmal. Josè and Crutch to be more focused shutting up and getting their house in order, Belichick style. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2021, 16:57
#46
30 Jul 2021, 16:57#46

And Kolisi weighs in:

“I didn’t feel respected at all, I didn’t feel I was given a fair opportunity,” said Kolisi.

“But I’m looking forward to a new game and a new referee.

“I think Ben (O’Keeffe) will give a fair opportunity for both captains, and that’s all we’re asking.”

Asked in what ways he had been disrespected, Kolisi continued: “Did you watch the video? Watch that and then we can chat afterwards.

…. 

The race card.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2021, 17:04
#47
30 Jul 2021, 17:04#47

Everything we accomplished at the WC is unfortunately tarnished by this, even implicating the captain ….remember how we felt when the Poms behaved churlishly after we won. Well we have returned the favour.

It’s just rugby not WW3, and we have experienced plenty of poor reffing in the past….exited WC 2011 on a very dubious forward pass  with Lambie crossing for a likely winning try. 

But this sets a new high water mark for post match bitching. Made fully public by intent and apparently involving team members like Kolisi.


Erasmus is right where he wants to be, the center of attention.

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
30 Jul 2021, 17:18
#48
30 Jul 2021, 17:18#48

Well the dye has been cast and tomorrows a new day...not sure which way the dice will roll but hopefully a redemptive one with some good rugby...afterall what more can one ask...Good luck Chaps.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2021, 17:53
#49
30 Jul 2021, 17:53#49

Yes Chabal I agree with that. We are supposedly going to play club rugby up north and many of our players have to return to their clubs….hopefully not as bad sports.

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
30 Jul 2021, 18:33
#50
30 Jul 2021, 18:33#50

At first, I wasn't interested in engaging this topic, but the more I hear the worse I feel about it. It sounds like the beginnings of an SJW woke hashtag campaign, using Kolisi as external pressure to affect the ref. Control the ref. I can't wait for this era of Bok rugby to end. 

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
30 Jul 2021, 18:52
#51
30 Jul 2021, 18:52#51

The same thing Gats used complaining about Jonker.

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
30 Jul 2021, 18:54
#52
30 Jul 2021, 18:54#52

T he way this has been handled looks weak, neo-lib weak. Snowflake weak. 

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
30 Jul 2021, 18:57
#53
30 Jul 2021, 18:57#53


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
31 Jul 2021, 12:40
#54
31 Jul 2021, 12:40#54

No, it's weak being shafted and disrespected and then taking it like a dog with the tail between the legs (on the chin my arse!)...it takes  courage to stand up like a man, knowing that the fall-out from that can likely end your career, but you do what you think is right anyway...and doing it in a humble way to boot... You haters are blinded beyond reason...I'm only 11mins into the vid...more later.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
31 Jul 2021, 12:44
#55
31 Jul 2021, 12:44#55

He is responding to Gatland's bleating of the previous week, but that got no mention? ...rules only for some it seems?

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
01 Aug 2021, 13:18
#56
01 Aug 2021, 13:18#56
Well, being criticized for a poor performance is one thing . . . there's no coach or player that hasn't had a bad day . . . but being accused of cheating, bias or dishonesty is something completely different. 
The one is a criticism of your play or your management on one particular day. The other is calling your character and your integrity into question. If you can't tell the difference then you should be worried.

Doesn't answer my question, since questioning an official's performance doesn't automatically equate to accusing him of dishonesty. You question his competence, you question his consistency and you also question how the laws are applied because clearly there is no consistency in the application of many of the IRB's laws. If these things don't get addressed and get addressed in a way that gets attention, nothing will change.

So again, why does the public questioning of an official's performance equal bad sportsmanship?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Aug 2021, 16:49
#57
05 Aug 2021, 16:49#57

Back to the top with this candidate for novel of the year.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Aug 2021, 17:51
#58
05 Aug 2021, 17:51#58

Point number 1….Erasmus justifies the Water Carrier….because he’s not head coach. A technicality, he is clearly the head coach. Hiding behind this technicality is avoiding the spirit of the rule. In cricket if the bowler ran out the the non striker without warning him, we would all be up in arms. This kind of behavior exhibited means nothing can be left to good sportsmanship.

Point number 2….Berry was sent the clips, because those would influence team selection. But  there was no feedback till Tuesday. Big deal it’s apparently the convention. So one asks, whose selection was at stake.  The real point is he wasn’t ‘convinced with the clarity’.

Point number 3….the call for a yellow card on the kick. The ‘shoulder charge’. This was a case where Curry was trying to make the tackle before Faf kicked, realized at the last second he was too late and never carried through with the tackle. This was not a ‘charge’ a head on tackle. This was contact after the kick which happens all the time…by the time he realized he was too late he couldn’t pull out and bouncing off him rather than tackling him at that point was less dangerous.  Penalty no card the right decision,


Point 3 Curry entering from the side. Erasmus is right about this, one of many breakdown calls that wasn’t made.

Point number 4 …the foul play call. Reversing a call for foul play is only done when it’s dangerous. Berry is right it’s custom as so much Rugby reffing is, not everything is in the rule book.


Point 5…the tackle of 21 on Allende….this was a restraining over the shoulder tackle and down the chest….it never curls  round the neck….he was actually trying to dislodge the ball, totally different from the Bongi tackle he shows as the base case, where Bongi’s arm does curl round the neck with force. 

Point 6….the Watson tip tackle. This in my view was a clear card, probably red. This was the big reffing mistake of the game, but the onus here has to be on the video ref who had the opportunity to view and clearly call it. Big mistake from Berry….but no bigger than the much more dangerous Kolbe submarine run under Murray, which was more clearly a red.

Point 7….the Duhan lift, actually follows what looks like a no arms tackle by Am. And it happened simultaneously with the ruck being formed. These are minor fragments of time. At no time was the player tipped….marginal at best.

Point 8 …the advantage call. Erasmus makes a big point about time, but it’s really a question of substantive advantage. The Lions gained some territory but never  broke the defence. Willie made a clean break and was about to make a dangerous offload when he lost the ball. Berry called it just before he lost the ball. Unfortunate timing, but to imply intent is paranoid. Which much of this tape is….paranoid.

Point 9….the hold in penalty against Kwagga. Erasmus claims Kwagga is held in by Lawes leg. But actually you see no attempt by Kwagga to move, he remains flat and motionless. The Lion who is trapped pushes up on his one arm to get out and the ball is pushed into him. Once again Berry is right Erasmus is wrong. The few subsequent Lions not rolling away clips were marginal, mitigated by the fact that the ball was available and not held in by the players in question..

Point 10 The Curry in from the side call with ruck formed, possibly wrong but could only be established by a video review. Refs can’t see these things in the fragments of time they occur….and they go both ways. Unless we want endless layering these calls have to be made real time.

Point 11 The Itoje playing through the ruck and Ox Niche penalty….you will see  here Kwagga comes in totally from the side, something he complains about time and again.


Point 12 The Itoje steal ….Erasmus seems to have a problem with him ‘cynically’ pushing the ball to the ground when it’s in both players hands. He finally rips it off Faf. To take a page out of the Erasmus book I doubt there is anything in the laws that says a steal can’t be affected by pushing down. 

Point 13….the Eben non steal Berry coaches Eben off the ball when he fails to make the steal and is off his feet. No penalty…not sure what Erasmus has a problem with.

Point 14…the AR offside call on Allende. From the still Berry threw  his AR under the bus apparently. But the ball hasn’t been passed and Allende is close to the offside. By the time he makes the pass it wa quite possible he was offside.

Point15….Lions player not freezing after the kick….yes technically right, but the player was nowhere near the chase, it was a long flat kick in any case. Embarrassing rom Erasmus.

Point 16 … The Elstadt tackling the player with his knee on the deck. He gives 2 examples of calling it right…then claims Itoje did this to Elstadt in the last  minute. But the strip occurred ‘ in the process’ of Elstadt going down. His knee may have hit a fraction of a second before the ball popped out…but way too close to call in real time.

Point 17….the knock on to Duhan van der Merwe, called as a scrum, not a penalty. Erasmus appears to be right on this one, but clearly Berry didn’t concede the point or Erasmus would have reported it…I’d like to hear Berry’s view.

Point 18 the Sia Kolisi disrespect…the problem here is Sia doesn’t look Berry in the face and make his point. His body language is not assertive and I’m sure his verbal communication is also not crisp. When Berry makes a little joke Erasmus interprets that he is laughing at Kolisi…I doubt it.

Point 19…the Kolbe take in the air. Erasmus says has 3 angles of this but shows none. Perhaps because the Lions player is also locked onto the ball and in trying to secure it pulls Kolbe into touch. Vunipola picking up Kolbe was disrespectful, but I have never seen it penalized.


Point 20 … the Curry scrumming onto Ox occurred because he pivoted inside.. .the lift looked dangerous but is there a law, Erasmus’ gold standard, that says you can’t lift an opponent. I doubt it.

And that’s about it apart from another vigorous defence of having the Director of South African Rugby act as a water boy. I may have missed a few points it was so repetitive. But that’s the bulk of it.



SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Aug 2021, 19:06
#59
05 Aug 2021, 19:06#59
Bullshit every point Rassie raised had merit Waterboy is spot on No arm tackles and late Entry from the side Two tip tackles Kolisi being ignored re the pull back on Mapimpi and AWJ getting his way with Kolbe knock on Mapimpi pull back was a foul - Berry saying a foul has to be harmful is a load of utter rubbish. The ref does not know the laws of the game I could go on
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Aug 2021, 19:32
#60
05 Aug 2021, 19:32#60

Taken altogether there were some blatantly wrong calls, like the Willie tip tackle….some close calls you might debate ….and a bunch of close calls which one would never  even mention,  on this video.


I see no evidence of blatant bias on the part of the referees. Perhaps the Boks got the  short end of the stick. We will never know because calls that went against the Lions weren’t noted, although I pointed out a few in the course of looking at Erasmus’ points.


He wrapped it all in a carefully crafted victim envelope….disrespect to our captain ie his race, disrespect to our players ie Saffas in general…..the safety of the players. But the real animus here was Gatland getting an edge on him for the first test.


This naive, whining video will live on as a low point in South African sport.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Aug 2021, 19:53
#61
05 Aug 2021, 19:53#61

As usual with you Dave, you are too lazy to do the analysis, so you just repeat what you have read elsewhere.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Aug 2021, 20:33
#62
05 Aug 2021, 20:33#62
Actually no I watched Rassie’s video up to about minute 30 and the points I mention are spot on. There is nothing minor about a late no arms tackle There is nothing minor about two tip tackles There is nothing minor about holding a player back - without the hold back Mapimpi could have scored the try himself There is nothing minor about a side entry, it’s an offence Rassie is spot on in putting the officials under pressure after Gatland did the very same thing before the first test when he took issue with a SA’n being appointed TMO. That pressure worked in the Lions favour given the TMO ignored all those offences with the tip tackles being the most concerning and of course the two disallowed Bok tries Rassie cleverly highlighted the discrepancies in officiating and turned the officials in our favour in the second test It’s brilliant Oh and there is absolutely no mention of race that’s your perverted interpretation as you hate Rassie so much that you will stoop to those depths
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
05 Aug 2021, 20:37
#63
05 Aug 2021, 20:37#63

I really don’t understand how a mere water boy holds such sway in these matters, actually 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Aug 2021, 20:40
#64
05 Aug 2021, 20:40#64
Water is very important in rugby Becs
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
05 Aug 2021, 20:41
#65
05 Aug 2021, 20:41#65

Yeah, clearly Saffex 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Aug 2021, 20:41
#66
05 Aug 2021, 20:41#66

Read the post, look at the video, see if you have something to add. The shoulder charge…charge…is complete humbug just for one thing. It’s Point # 3….use your fingers if counting is hard.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
05 Aug 2021, 20:52
#67
05 Aug 2021, 20:52#67
Ive raised more than enough issues and am 100% behind Rassie on them
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2021, 00:45
#68
06 Aug 2021, 00:45#68

Well that’s one way to believe what you want, don’t look at the evidence.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Aug 2021, 00:50
#69
06 Aug 2021, 00:50#69
What more evidence do you need that there were tip tackles, no arm late shots, pulling back and side entries to name but some
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2021, 02:18
#70
06 Aug 2021, 02:18#70

Everything that was a revelation was known and discussed thoroughly before Erasmus’ video…..the material he added was in the grey area and some of it was flat wrong,

AU
AugenöffnerPro6,974 posts
06 Aug 2021, 02:43
#71
06 Aug 2021, 02:43#71

If this man, this absolute buffoon really was a lawyer, that's a scary thought. Short fused Ally McFeelz on the case, how could it possibly go wrong? 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2021, 13:54
#72
06 Aug 2021, 13:54#72

My guess is very few have actually gone through  more than a few minutes of the Erasmus video. That also applies to many of the journalists. It is delivered in the most boring ….aw shucks…..style.


Which to tell the truth isn’t missing much…the big items like the Willie tip tackle, the Daley pull back and the Itoje steal were all known and extensively discussed after the game.


The rest of this ineffably boring video consists of a series of marginal calls of the kind you get in rugby in every game. In many cases Erasmus is wrong and he certainly misses calls going against the Lions, some of  which are visible even in the Rassie clips.


A complete nothing which has not been debunked because it’s a tedious task. I have completed that task as accurately as I can ….take a look. Otherwise accept that it’s just a nothing burger.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Aug 2021, 18:41
#73
06 Aug 2021, 18:41#73
That’s not the point Moz - Rassie put the video out as he failed to get answers from the ref who was fucking rude and told him he was still sleeping at 5pm on the Sunday and then lied about getting back to Rassie. All valid points raised by Rassie seeking confirmation of calls made. Effectively the officials were ducking and diving
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2021, 20:46
#74
06 Aug 2021, 20:46#74

Well I think at this point everybody’s position is totally locked in…if it wasn’t from the very beginning. And like many modern controversies it will probably never be  resolved.


— END OF THREAD —

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