FIXTURESNo upcoming fixtures — check back soon.
FORUM / RUGBY /  WHERE TO FROM HERE FOR MEYER?; Rugby 365

WHERE TO FROM HERE FOR MEYER?; Rugby 365

Started by Just_win13 REPLIES314 VIEWS· 26 Oct 2015, 14:18
SHAREXFACEBOOKWHATSAPPTELEGRAMREDDITLINKEDIN
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
26 Oct 2015, 14:18
#1
26 Oct 2015, 14:18#1

I am flabbergasted at the unbridled hatred directed towards South Africa's coach Heyneke Meyer at the moment.

Even Peter de Villiers in his most dysfunctional idiosyncrasy was not disliked as much as Meyer is at the moment.

Maybe Rudolf Straeuli in the aftermath of Kamp Staaldraad experienced the kind of vitriolic bile directed at the Springbok mentor.

I was as disappointed as the next person in the Boks' loss to the All Blacks in the semifinals.

However, unlike some cretinous 'supporters' I did not wish to bring harm to any of the coaching staff or players.

Wishing somebody dead because of a two-point loss to the world's best team is taking it a tad too far.

Seriously, that says more about the so-called 'supporters' than the coaching staff or players.

I want to take a step back and look at - what I feel - should be the way forward for Heyneke Meyer.

We all know there is this rumour that he has already been signed on for another four years.

He did not shed any real light on it either, with a sidestep that will make most midfielders proud - when asked about it at a media briefing at the weekend.

However, I believe he may well be the right man to take us forward - be that for another two or four years (preferably four years).

Just think about this: What would have happened if England had discarded Clive Woodward after the 1999 World Cup (quarterfinal exit for England), or New Zealand dismissed Graham Henry after the 2007 World Cup (also a quarterfinal exit)?

Meyer is as passionate about the Springboks as the next person - you can hear that when he speaks, you can see it in how he behaves on the sidelines during games, you can see it in the painful expressions in his face when his team gets beaten.

Did Heyneke Meyer make mistakes in the last four years? YES!

Did he learn from those mistakes? I believe he has.

Did he get some things right? Yes.

Now that the emotions of the loss have settled, let us look at where the national team stands.

In contrast to the prevailing pessimism, there were significant changes to the team in the last four years.

A substantial chunk of the team that played in the semifinal at the weekend made their Springbok debuts under Meyer and can go on to play in the next two World Cup tournaments.

Willie le Roux, Jesse Kriel, Damian De Allende, Handré Pollard, Duane Vermeulen, Lodewyk de Jager, Eben Etzebeth, Frans Malherbe, Trevor Nyakane and Jan Serfontein all made their Test debuts under Meyer.

Now add in the likes of Francois Louw, JP Pietersen, Adriaan Strauss, Willem Alberts and Patrick Lambie  and you have a well-established team.

If you compare that with the quality of the players that New Zealand will lose by next year, you may see why there is reason to be optimistic.

Springbok rugby is not in such a bad state and I believe Meyer is slowly (maybe slower than some want) evolving the national team.

When he took over the Bulls in 2002 it also took them a few years to settle and evolve. By 2007 they won their first title and added two more (2009 and 2010, albeit under Frans Ludeke) with a brand of rugby that packed stadiums - making them the most supported brand in the Southern Hemisphere.

And - again contrary to what the naysayers will tell you - they also scored plenty of tries, always among the top three try-scorers in Super Rugby.

But back to the Boks and Meyer's future.

I took a look at what Meyer will be left with next year (if reports/rumours are true that he is staying on) and it is really encouraging.

Here is what New Zealand will look like: Ben Smith (available), Nehe Milner-Skudder (available), Conrad Smith (gone to France), Ma'a Nonu (to Toulon), Julian Savea (available), Daniel Carter (France), Aaron Smith (available), Kieran Read (the next captain), Richie McCaw (retired?), Jerome Kaino (getting old, but still around), Samuel Whitelock (available), Brodie Retallick (available), Owen Franks (available), Dane Coles (available), Joe Moody (available), Keven Mealamu (retiring), Ben Franks (gone to England), Charlie Faumuina (available), Victor Vito (available), Sam Cane (available), Tawera Kerr-Barlow (available), Beauden Barrett (available), Sonny Bill Williams (swapping codes again or retiring?).

Now let us look at what South Africa will look like in 2016: Willie le Roux (available), JP Pietersen (available), Jesse Kriel (available), Damian de Allende (available), Bryan Habana (available), Handré Pollard (available), Fourie du Preez (retired), Duane Vermeulen (in France, but available), Schalk Burger (going back to Japan, but retired from Test rugby), Francois Louw (available), Lodewyk de Jager (available), Eben Etzebeth (available), Frans Malherbe (available), Bismarck du Plessis (in France, but available), Tendai Mtawarira (available), Adriaan Strauss (available), Trevor Nyakane (available), Jannie du Plessis (in France, available), Victor Matfield (gone to England, retired from Test rugby), Willem Alberts (France, available), Ruan Pienaar (Ireland, available), Patrick Lambie (available), Jan Serfontein (available).

That is a very interesting picture and does not take into account the back-up (or fringe) players.

If you look at the Currie Cup competition, there is a host of very talented youngsters coming through, along with some established players that will give the national team some real depth.

That is why I say, #HeynekeMustStay!

By Jan de Koning
@King365ed
@rugby365com


JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
26 Oct 2015, 14:27
#2
26 Oct 2015, 14:27#2
 So no worries? I would not be surprised if Meyer is extended.
On the comparison with ABs, the is not taking into account the emerging talent, some of which has already been in the AB camp, e.g. Ardie Savea, Sopoaga and many more. 
CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
26 Oct 2015, 18:18
#3
26 Oct 2015, 18:18#3
 if meyer stays i wont support the boks anymore
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Oct 2015, 21:09
#4
26 Oct 2015, 21:09#4
 I am not sure about the list of players quoted above.  Lets look at the age of some of the [players the writer said being available next year:-    
JP Pietersen (30), Bryan Habana (33), Duane Vermeulen (30), Francois Louw (31), Bismarck du Plessis (32), Tendai Mtawarira (30), Adriaan Strauss (30), Jannie du Plessis (34),  Willem Alberts (32), Ruan Pienaar (33)
Of the above Jannie du Plessis, Willem Alberts and Ruan Pienaar are dead losses and most of the others may play another year or two test rugby - they are definitely not realistic longer term propositions.
The problem is not only the players - it centers around getting a coach kicking and screaming into ab adjusted and more modern playing style - but that may be possible if players who are capable of adjusting is on the cards - the elderly Meyer used as his core was never able to adjust their playing style and kept on playing archaic rugby.
In essence - most reasonable people does not want Meyer "dead: as stated in the article - they just want a changed environment in the team  which they regard as impossible with Meyer as coach.  If Meyer is allowed to stay on as coach he himself will be forced in making serious changes to his own approach  and he will have to strengthen his supporting staff and get real professionals involved.  At this stage there is no indication of that either.
We will have to see how things develop over the next three months.  I can live with Meyer as coach - but not with his methodology used thus far.     .   .      .
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
26 Oct 2015, 21:58
#5
26 Oct 2015, 21:58#5
 Mike, if Thor played in SA, I might have made him captain for the next 2 years and I will play Habana off the bench for a few games, pick one of Bissie or Straus per match at 2, but give another 2 game time every match. The rest of the lot should retire immediately.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Oct 2015, 22:26
#6
26 Oct 2015, 22:26#6
 I have to agree with you - but one crazy suggestion made in a newspaper suggested that Francois Louw should be captain of the Springboks - something i thought was seriously crazy.   
Mu concept is that the captain should be an automatic selection as a player - and the question remains is Louw one such.   
This story is so unrealistic it is amazing.   The following players in the squad - but not playing on Saturday should also retire from international rugby:-
Zane Kirchner (32), Lwazi Mvovo (30) and Morne Steyn  (32)
Coenie Oosthuizen must first prove that his constant neck injuries are not impeding his performance.
If Meyer stays on as coach will he change his attitude and start selection based on performance and forget about reputation players without regard to performance?  That remains the million dollar question.   
      
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
26 Oct 2015, 22:48
#7
26 Oct 2015, 22:48#7
 Connie is and always was a pipe dream. Can't scrum, so shouldn't play. On from Louw is a good player. In the right combination he did well over the last 4 years, but he is too old to be more than a stand-in during emergencies. From the older players Thor is the only possible captain, but he will be 34 at the next RWC...and we don't want another JdV/VM/JS situation.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Oct 2015, 01:36
#8
27 Oct 2015, 01:36#8
 It will be better to look for a younger captain and in that case Kriel and Labuschagne are the only two real prospects that could take the team through to the 2019 WC.  Neither Louw nor Vermeulen or Strauss would be able to do that.   They will all be 34 or older in 2019 and as you rightly say that would represent another fiasco like we had had iro the lot this year.
Mozart will flip a lid - he would want Matfield as captain in 2019 with second choice Louw .    

     
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
27 Oct 2015, 06:48
#9
27 Oct 2015, 06:48#9
 Mike, any of those players might still be good enough to play till then, but the next in lines must be identified and played enough to get a natural transition.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Oct 2015, 07:34
#10
27 Oct 2015, 07:34#10
 Draad 
Of the above I rate Vermeulen very highly and he is likely to get to the age of 34 and be good enough in 2019.  The only other three players who might - and I am very hesitant to say it - make it to the next WC is Pietersen, Beast and Strauss - the rest will be tickets.
I am very hesitant about all three - Pietersen's progress has been all to the negative side the past few years, Beast is iffy in scrumming especially and Strauss may decide toi retire as well.
I am particularly keen for the Springbok coach to bring on board the following new  players:-
Outside Backs  -   Andries Coetzee, Riaan Combrinck, Jamba Ulengo
Centers           -   Harold Vorster - Howard Mnisi
Scrummies       -   Venter of the Cheetahs, Faf de Klerk
Loosies            -   Jaco Kriel, Lappies Labuschagne
Locks              -   Willemse, Jacques du Plessis
Props              -   Steven Kitshoff
Hooker             -   Malcolm Marx
However, the key to bring in new players should be performance on Super 15 level.  The notion that Super Rugby is not one of the keys for identification  and development of players is to my mind absolute crap.   If players are not successful on Super Rugby level - what chance would they have to be successful on higher level?
      




 
    
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
27 Oct 2015, 09:30
#11
27 Oct 2015, 09:30#11
 Corection of Mikes ages.JP Pietersen (29 ), Bryan Habana (32), Duane Vermeulen (29), Francois Louw (30), Bismarck du Plessis (31), Tendai Mtawarira (30), Adriaan Strauss (29), Jannie du Plessis (32),  Willem Alberts (31), Ruan Pienaar (31)
Figures all taken from Wiki
If Meyer fired loubcher and got in an Eddie Jones type of coach all might be well. Guys like matfield will be gone. One other qualification - Meyer would need to understand the type of rugby he played against NZ in SA would be the blueprint. Good old fashoned balanced Bok rugby. The idea that we traditioanlly play dom rugby is rubbish.
However ou maaaikie as noted elsewhere there are a host of issues that need to be addressed. You are focusing only on one element of the problem. Meyer is not to blame for:No central contacting. (Hence the players being unfit after the super 15!)Injuriesbent refs and SARU's failure to address the situation apaert from the occassional outburst from Hoskins.Quotas - players and coaching staff - Loubcher a vodacom cup backline coach with little experience. Kolis being picked ahead of Kriel, Nyankane ahead of Kitshof. Kirchner in the side etc etcExodus of players overseas.Too many provinces.
Meyer needs a brain in his coaching squad. He is a good man and nobody cant fault the spirit which the Boks play with.
If he wants to continue with dom rugby he should go. Kriel getting the ball 3 times in the entire test is crazy.

WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
27 Oct 2015, 09:38
#12
27 Oct 2015, 09:38#12
 Meyer is a good coach and a decent man so if 'fans' are making threats its just shameful,enough with the stupid Farcebook nonsense.And J-W is right about emerging talent in NZ loke Ioane and co plus the return of Cruden .You saffas need to stop using NH playing boks too ,you only want guys who are 100% commited to the jersey eh ?
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
27 Oct 2015, 10:04
#13
27 Oct 2015, 10:04#13
Warped DUD the Sa currency is so weak thanks to the useless anc that the attraction of playing overseas are overwhelming. So great is the eodus - now of our best young talent as well- that our home based player resourecesa re being really stretched. Of course given our race based approch to things it was decdided we needed another Super 15 franchide, the queens, which it was argued would fast track black talent but which will fail in this and simply make matters far worse.
Despite still being competitive the SA rugby house is in a shambles mirrowing the mess being made of this incredible country by the hapless corrupt and self serving anc.
It is doubtful that despite everyone knowing what needs to be done that the corrective measures will be taken. We knew for instance seven years before it happend exactly when we would run out of electricity but nothing was done. We know very well, for example, that we need something like central contracting but year after year nothing is done. The leadership these days is piss poor to use snapster stock phrase. 
Meanwhile the oaks quibble only about this player versus that player, about the coach and dont see there are further major issues beyond these two factors.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Oct 2015, 10:14
#14
27 Oct 2015, 10:14#14
 Beeno
Can you not read properly.  I said the ages would be what they will be next year - not their present ages.
I agree with you on most issues - but I think the has-beens and never-has-beens (not only Matfield) should be gone.
    
— END OF THREAD —

More from Rugby

More news