DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
19 Jul 2015, 21:47#2
Poly, I think most true SA rugby fans supports the best players irrespective of etniticity. And if you increase your player pool, it should strengthen our sides. This is hovever not what happens in practice. Non white people is by far the biggest portion of our populace, but most of them don't even watch rugby, never mind playing. Size iz also an issue. Most of non European SAcans are small. To force the inclusion of certain players baced on race, is just plain stupid. It's unfair on the players selected and on those being excluded. Go and ask any non white player what they think of such a system. I agree that players should be given opportunity, but I don't believe that our teams competing on an internal level should be subjected to forced demographic profiles. This goes for the Boks and our Super Rugby franchises. It just doesn't make sense. I have no problem with quotas in our domestic competitions, because the restrictions would be the same for all teams.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
19 Jul 2015, 21:57#3
Here's the problem Poly, Polynesians do not need a quota system to win places in teams. Black South Africans are not Polynesians, and are on the whole far less suited to rugby than they are. Numbers mean nothing. You can add the entire population of East Asia into our player pool and the quota system will still struggle. It's just the way it is. Imagine enforcing quotas in the NBA for white players? Despite being the overwhelming majority, they just don't have the suitability to dethrone African Americans. The naturally occuring order of dominance is that they are the dominant force. Racial programs are designed to artificially disrupt that natural order by allowing one ethnicity to get an easy ride. It does n't work, because in sport, your opponent doesn't care about the racist chip on your shoulder. They will exploit any weakness they can and make a mockery of your racial selections. I don't have a problem supporting a 100% black football team, why can't they support a less than 100% white team? That's the problem.
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
19 Jul 2015, 22:07#4
Polyboy: don't give the South Africans any ideas or else they will be granting citizenship to the Pacific Islanders (which includes kiwis of course)
It's hard to talk about ethnic qualities without sounding racist, but I will try. It is true that there are some highly talented rugby players (big, fast, skilled) of Polynesian origin (I include Fijians as well although I am not sure they are Polynesian). However, OZ was dominating rugby for a fair while and they did not yet have many Polynesians.
What we are seeing world-wide is teams are recruiting Polynesians for their talent, e.g. France, UK and others so for sure the talent is there. When you consider the number of Polynesians and the number of world class rugby players you have to say the evidence seems to say they are well suited to the game.
Now I will really put my foot in it, for me it is best if talent/performance determines selection but we have also seen that in other domains positive discrimination as a temporary step is needed to ensure equal opportunity.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
19 Jul 2015, 22:11#5
I think Polynesians make great backs but whites make better forwards. Boks lead nz in tests before isolation over a period of many decades. Barring guys like Habana and Beast there have not been top black rugby players on view.This may change in the future. However let merit be the guiding principle.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
19 Jul 2015, 22:18#6
There is no such thing as positive discrimination. Giving one person an easier path is not equality. Furthermore, it has never and will never work in any area of life. If you need an easier path to get to the top, then that already says you are not good enough and do not deserve to be at the top. Simple as that. The reality is that too many black South Africans don't want white people to hold ANY position of power. So they invent racist initiatives to carry their agenda subversively. The net result is that we become uncompetitive. T he mentality of handout and shifting responsibility for your actions sets in. All this can be avoided if these racist programs are nipped in the bud and exposed for being what they really are. Like I say, I can support a 100% black football team, why can't they support a less than 100% white rugby team? South Africa is sadly too far gone to be saved. The ANC has successfully poisoned and corrupted everything it could get its filthy mitts on.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
19 Jul 2015, 22:20#7
You are correct Beeno, we do have better forwards. They produce better backs produce. It's the most rediculous production line of centres I have ever seen. We have had maybe 4 test quality centres in 20 years, they could field 8 pairings better than virt ually anything we have had.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Jul 2015, 10:43#10
Rugby caters for all sizes and shapes. The good rugby coach can put together a team where players complement eachother. If you try and mould players into a telecast profile, you couch the spark out of them more often than not. Some of our best players in recent years did not tic all the boxes for their positions, but brought more to the game with some of their skills than some deficiencies took away. Rugby remains a team sport. Our lot is not quite a team yet. Give them a few more games.
ABABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
20 Jul 2015, 14:15#11
@desert fox,
"There is no such thing as positive discrimination. And giving one person
an easier path is not equality.And furthermore, it has never and will
never work in any area of life."
wrong, very wrong.
when there's a discrimination in the society, and nowadays in every country there are some different discriminations, the women and non-white populations, among others, are the main victims of different grades of discrimination in the "western countries". The handicapped persons are other tipical discriminated group.
The positive discrimination is one of the policies that can correct these discriminations of the white-dominant and patriarcal societies.
Other different issue is to apply this positive discrimination to sports. The sports are nothing fundamental in a society, it's just that, simple sport and while the acces to it for every person is granted, nothing more is needed.
IMO the quota system is a grave mistake that doesn't going to change nothing. Policies to promote the rugby btwin the black people are needed but the focus should be put in things like campaigns in schools and promoting the rugby from the base more than forcing a quota system in the elite rugby
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Jul 2015, 20:24#12
Agreed Basq. Level playing field for international teams. You can't force unequal sellection criteria at top level. I have no problem with quotas on domestic level, where it is the same for all teams. Get the feeder system sorted, and it will filter through to the upper levels, without the current resentment. At the just completed Craven Week, WP and EP (I think) were the only teams fielding more than the minimum requirement quota. They played in the final, which WP won 90 odd to 0, but still... The rest of the teams complied exactly, without getting the better of the teams that did more.
MOMonsterBok
Club Pro442 posts
MOMonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
21 Jul 2015, 06:27#13
Quota system is simply discrimination, and no other way to look at it. An equal level playing field for all irrespective of anything. I couldn't give a toss what they looked like as long as they are the best we have to offer. But that ant ever gonna happen eh!!
