UK says Russia ‘starting to fail’ in Ukraine war

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/11/uk-ministers-say-russia-has-failed-as-west-pledges-more-aid

The British defence secretary has said Russia is unlikely to succeed in occupying Ukraine as Western nations pledged 1.5bn euros ($1.55bn) more to help boost the Ukrainian military in its fight against Russia.

Ben Wallace said Russia’s invasion had “faltered” and was “starting to fail” as 26 countries agreed to give more financial and military aid to Ukraine at a conference in Copenhagen on Thursday, co-hosted by Wallace and the Danish defence minister Morten Bodskov.

The power and might of the West it too much for Russia, especially as Ukrainians develop experience using our technology. 

I am liking this long-range weaponry that we are giving to Ukraine.

As Ukrainians get more training with the new tech, they can attack Russia more severely from longer ranges. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Counter attacks are now underway to take back Ukrainian cities. 

We need to do the same for Taiwan….it should be bristling with missiles.

How many men can Ukraine muster?

They gonna get worn down, find a peaceful agreement. 

Politicians speak with a forked tongue even more so when it comes to money aid issues.

It would be great to have a means of tracking all the financial aid thus far promised to Ukraine, how much has been received by Ukraine and what happened to the missing money.

Anyone prepared to guess........

They are all using this invasion for financial gain even the Joker at present running Ukraine.

Criminals.

The anti Russian narrative and Atrocity Propaganda has worked up to a point in demonizing the recipient but this disgusting tripe spread by lying media  is beginning to smell as the truth is slowly seeping out.

The weapons will not change the outcome only prolong it and Russia will continue to fight until the last Ukrainian. Washington does not care, the Military Industrial Complex is making big money.

Far more serious issues are the concern the Ukrainians have been shelling Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant in Southern Ukraine, which is 6 times larger than Chernobyl.

https://youtu.be/frivETp4NP4

It's a dumb dumb war....wish they'd uppercut themselves and wake up at the negotiating table.

It's a dumb dumb war....wish they'd uppercut themselves and wake up at the negotiating table.

I suppose you could say all wars are dumb. Both sides still think they can win, hence they are not negotiating. Until one side gets the upper hand or until stalemate and both sides conclude the cost of continuing is too high the war will go on.

Putin has a blood lust that won't go away. 

Negotiate for peace now and he'll be back tomorrow with far greater numbers. 

He needs to be taught a lesson.

The west should gather enormous resources and back an Ukrainian invasion of Russia. 

Drive him back all the way to Moscow and arrest the loon for war crimes. 

Putin isn't going away. 

The only peace you'll get from Russia is from a dead Putin. 

Listen to this interview.

Get the context, narrative and perspective right before spouting indoctrinated emotion.

This man has the right...in fact spot on.

Roger Waters of Pink Floyd.

 https://www.rt.com/shows/rt-interview/560751-roger-waters-ukraine-usa/

Yes when I want factually information about geopolitics and warfare Pink Floyd is the obvious choice.

You can cite one person's random opinion, or one scientist, doctor, musician, politician, policeman, plumber, dentist etc, etc. 

However, then you have to consider what other people's opinions are as well, like consensus between subject experts or mainstream thought.  

How can you use "an" opinion to justify your argument that Putin is righteous when 90+% of people around the world oppose Russia in Ukraine?

Oh, so the other 90+% are just brainwashed and following the mainstream herd, even when no alternative logical arguments can be presented. 

Roger is an honest man and has his heart in the right place. No, he doesn't spout nonsense before he has studied and weighed the situation from different narratives and if he does not know enough does pass judgements and opinions until he fully understands a situation from both sides.

He hates the propaganda and lies and deception and can see right through it.

I rate him a man of integrity even though I don't agree on some issues but I certainly like and respect him...he is an individual, creative, very intelligent, outspoken and true to what he believes in. The world needs myriads of people like him.

And no, he opposes hypocrisies and does not follow the mindless sheep and status quo. He is spot on about agreements and has contempt for those that renege on them...he is spot on about the breaches of the Minsk and One China agreements and the encroachment of NATO on Russian borders. He believes and so do I , if agreements are honoured and respected there would be no wars. He also believes it's none of anybody's business to dictate from the power of hegemony to tell other countries how to govern...he makes this very clear. The hegemony policies of Uncle Sam are being seen slowly and it will be a better world if we live and let live. As he says, it's none of our f'ing business to tell others how to run their countries. I fully agree with that...no interference especially from Big Brother, who has by far committed far more atrocities than anybody else.

Right at the beginning, Western media should have done its utmost to reach out to Russian people in order to isolate Putin and his supporters.

There should have been an endless campaign to highlight the enviable qualities of the average Russian. Talks about new alliances, acceptance into the West the uplifting of hard working Russians should have been on every news channel and social media outlet.

Instead, the opposite occurred. All of Russia was painted as evil, stupid, gullible and archaic.

That wouldn't have worked. Many Russian's particularly older Russia's only get their news from Russian state TV and the Russian government could of simply blocked transmission, banned western media sources as they eventually did do anyway. Not to mention the Russian states ability to clamp down on dissent.

You know this simply wouldn't have worked and its really just another attempt at blaming the west.

If Russia didn't want to be portrayed as evil, stupid, gullible and archaic then perhaps it should not have invaded another sovereign country, committed war crimes, botched the initial part of the invasion, then switched over to WW1 era tactics, misread the international reaction and got itself politically and economically isolated. Granted not every Russian supports the war and many would be opposed to it and are understandably scared of the consequences of speaking but a large section of the Russia population does appear to support it.

Putin’s popularity inside Russia has been on the rise since the invasion and this is partially down to his successful propaganda. However, it’s also largely down to the West chucking the baby out with the bath water. Very stupid.

I said it right at the start. They way to beat Putin is from within Russia.

No, Putin's popularity has gone up with each military conflict he was involved in, Georgia, Syria, Ukraine 2014. Nothing to do with the West reaction, its how Putin and the state control of the media portray his actions to the people.

That ship has all but sailed at this point, and the same governments that lost the propaganda war are now telling everyone that Russia is running out of steam.

Hang on, who lost the propaganda war? Ukraine seems to be decisively winning in terms of propaganda in the West and that's what counts because' its the west that's providing them with aid.

As for Russia running out of steam, they are making slow incremental gains in the Donbass and maybe able to gain full control of it in the next few weeks or months, but then what. And compare that to what Russia was initially trying to do. You do realize Russia previously had considerably more Ukraine territory under its control that it does now?

If anything, Russia is gaining momentum and Ukraine is looking more and more like they’re putting on a brave face while awaiting the inevitable.

Again the outcome of this war is far from certain. Neither side appears close to defeat yet. Russia making slow but steady progress in Donbass, Ukraine look like they are preparing to try to retake Kherson and at least have forced Russia to divert reinforcements to that region.

Let’s assume a best case scenario for Ukraine. The best they can hope for is to lose a part of the country to Russia. And then there is the massive debt they’ve racked up and will be paying back for a very long time to come.

What is the best case scenario for Russia. They take the Donbass and maybe try to take Odessa as well. Then what, what if Ukraine keeps fighting and the west keeps giving them the means to do so. Under what circumstance will the west every want to trade or lift sanctions on Russia as long as Putin is in charge, regardless if a peace settlement is reached with Ukraine. What happens when Europe ends it dependency on Russian energy and the west is then free to sanction anyone who wants to buy it.

The majority of aid given to Ukraine does not required to be payed back so its not an issue for them to worry about. They have far pressing concerns. There is some aid that will have to pay back but like lend lease in WW2 it can be payed back over decades, on flexible terms and its even unlikely they will to have to pay back it all, some of it will be forgiven and then there is also the possibility that Russian will have to pay reparations or some of Russian's frozen assets held in other countries could you be used to pay for it.

The longer it goes on, the worse off Ukraine are. That doesn’t make for easy negations on their party. And Russia knows it.

I'd argue it the other way round.

See how ButtPlug tries to appear impartial without backing any horse, when we all know he is cheering Putin the anti-westerner. 

See how ButtPlug tries to appear impartial without backing any horse, when we all know he is cheering Putin the anti-westerner.

Had the west tried to do as he suggested at the start of the conflict he would probably be posting criticism that this was a form of destabilizing attack on Russia or that western media was full of lies.

Likewise I'd wager those that criticize the west for supplying arms to Ukraine saying that the west is cynically fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian would now doubt be saying if the west hadn't supplied Ukraine with arms that that west had abandon them for their own selfish reasons. Dammed if you do, damned if you don't.

Nice essay.

I wonder if you think i’ll actually read all that?

That's up to you, but well you are on a internet discussion forum aren't you?  No skin of my nose if you find my posts too long .

I did read the first bit. You seem to think that, in the event Putin managed to block ALL internet traffic and Western media sites, which i highly doubt they would or could, that Russians aren’t smart enough to use VPNs.

He has already blocked western media sites. As for VPN's not everyone knows what a VPN is or how to use one. That's not a knock against Russian's though, that's just people in general and Russian's would be no different.

China banned BTC mining and miners, under penalty of stiff prison sentences, simply started using VPNs and mining “illegally”.

Crypto miners tend to be IT savvy. We are talking about the general population of a country here.

It’s very obvious that the best way to defeat Putin and create and meaningful change in Russia would be to bring Russian people closer to Western thinking. And that won’t ever be achieved by ostracizing them.  Even if collapsing Putin’s efforts from behind his own lines wasn’t the best strategy, it would still be beneficial to have as many Russians as possible turn on Putin.

Well it would be ideal if we could bring Russian's around to western thinking, the problem is the people running Russia are absolutely against that and have control of the states media and thus control of the narrative that's presented to the Russian people and that anti western narrative which has been projected to them for decades is deeply entrenched among a considerably section of the Russian population. There is no way a western media campaign to influence the Russian population would have made any significant affect before the Russian's cut it off and then spun it as a propaganda attack designed to undermine the state which could of be in turn used to further anti western sentiment.

Not sure why you’re talking about Ukraine winning the propaganda war in the West…kinda has zero to do with the point i made RE Russians.

You said the same governments who lost the propaganda war are claiming Russian are running out of steam. Which governments?. I have no idea how anyone can think Russia is winning the propaganda war at this point.

Stav, you have no idea what i would argue in a hypothetical situation. Don’t try cheap shots, it’s unbecoming.

No matter what the West does some people will criticize them and attempt to shift the blame to them. Maybe I'm wrong but after reading your posts I'm entitled to an opinion.

The amount of deliberate lying and atrocity propaganda created by western media is so revolting and disgusting. If fools, who live such mundane and boring lives and take delight in the judgements that have absolutely no clue about reality and believe what they read and hear. Yeah it's sick, the phantom fighter ace, that turned out to be a video game, the false Bucha blame on Russian soldiers, Russian soldiers raping children, Ukraine will win etc, etc, is so sick when it is all lies.

From people who have never been in combat and seeing comrades wounded and yes some dying...obviously have no clue what it's like. Do all a favour and stick to your computer games.

Not going to get involved in any further nonsensical stupid debates on this issue, Until the truth is eventually revealed...this unfortunately is the only way that will shut you up.

I said this years ago about Iraq and the bombing of Belgrade but people either don't really care and forget very quickly over the years. No they don't care, not an iota...least of all the pricks on the wall in UK and especially "Fat Old Uncle Sam".

"There is no way a western media campaign to influence the Russian population would have made any significant affect before the Russian's cut it off and then spun it as a propaganda attack designed to undermine the state which could of be in turn used to further anti western sentiment."

I disagree.

"By leveraging automated emotional manipulation alongside swarms of bots, Facebook dark posts, A/B testing, and fake news networks, a company called Cambridge Analytica has activated an invisible machine that preys on the personalities of individual voters to create large shifts in public opinion. Many of these technologies have been used individually to some effect before, but together they make up a nearly impenetrable voter manipulation machine that is quickly becoming the new deciding factor in elections around the world."

If I were to bet on either Russia or current propaganda techniques, I'm putting everything on AI. 

For me, Russia would have to shut down large swathes of internet traffic in order to best a coordinated propaganda attack. And remember, it wouldn't require all, or even most, Russians to stop Putin from within. Just enough.

Also, VPN demand in Russia rose nearly 2,000% in a single week. Th ey currently rank 3rd in the world for VPN usage

"Russia’s invasion of Ukraine prompted a huge surge in the demand for VPNs, not only in Ukraine, but Russia as well. According to data from Atlas VPN, it saw a 1,906 percent change in the number of Atlas VPN application installs originating in Russia."

I think you underestimated the propaganda angle a tad too quickly.

@Plum

Cambridge Analytica may have been a decisive factor in the Brexit vote. It enabled the leave vote to find considerable number of undecided voters and specifically target them with pro-leave advertisements.

However in the case of Brexit, there was a considerably ground swell of anti EU sentiment generated by decades of anti EU stories in the UK press that left the country very even split on the issue. That anti EU-sentiment was not created by Cambridge Analytica but exploited by then. In the case of Russia, there is a notable minority that oppose Putin's regime but still a minority and not the more even division in the case of the UK public and Brexit.. Any western propaganda campaign would have to overcome decades of anti western sentiment that holds say over a large section of Russian society. Where CA could convince undecided voters to vote leave in the Brexit vote, leave voters where free to do so without fear of reprisal, convincing someone in Russia that Putin is wrong is one thing, getting them to do something about when there is a very real possibility that you could end up in Russian prison or worse is quite another.

And remember, it wouldn't require all, or even most, Russians to stop Putin from within. Just enough.

If your talking about people in Putin's inner circle, do you really think a western media campaign overcome either the incentives Putin can offer these people or the risks of opposing him?

As for VPN's, your posted numbers show only 24% of Russian use VPN's. Chances are a good chunk of that 24% already don't like Putin but again its a minority of Russia population.

I think you underestimated the propaganda angle a tad too quickly.

Don't think so.

"If your talking about people in Putin's inner circle, do you really think a western media campaign overcome either the incentives Putin can offer these people or the risks of opposing him?"

Actually, it is happening already, and has been for a while, where people close to Putin are not agreeing with a lot of his decisions or tactics in this war

You cannot put an exact number to how they are affected, but they will be, it is inevitable to some degree

"Cambridge Analytica may have been a decisive factor in the Brexit vote..."

I was just providing an example. The point is, current propaganda tactics are very difficult for leaders to combat...you're basically left with having to switch off the internet.

I'm not necessarily talking about his inner circle. Just that one doesn't have to change 100% of the Russian population's minds. There's a tipping point and it's probably closer to 20% than 100%. 

Actually, it is happening already, and has been for a while, where people close to Putin are not agreeing with a lot of his decisions or tactics in this war

You cannot put an exact number to how they are affected, but they will be, it is inevitable to some degree

Well no one is really sure what his inner circle are thinking. Their probably is a few who disagree with him but that doesn't mean they are willing or in a position to act upon it. And I doubt such dissent has been caused by Western media. More like you said they are un happy with his decisions and tactics.

I was just providing an example. The point is, current propaganda tactics are very difficult for leaders to combat...you're basically left with having to switch off the internet.

My point is what what CA did during the Brexit wouldn't have worked if their had not been decades of anti EU sentiment being built up by the media in the UK to the point where the country was very even divided on the issue. In Russia, the division between the pro-Putin and anti-Putin camp is not near as close, with the pro-Putin side in the strong majority.

I'm not necessarily talking about his inner circle. Just that one doesn't have to change 100% of the Russian population's minds. There's a tipping point and it's probably closer to 20% than 100%.

So 20% of the population can force a change that the other 80% doesn't support. Unless they take control of the military, I'm not sure how they could do that?

"you're basically left with having to switch off the internet"

Correct, one would have to be extremely niave to think it is not happening.... even in the inner circle, much more than we could imagine, I would believe

"In Russia, the divisio n between the pro-Putin and anti-Putin camp is not near as close, with the pro-Putin side in the strong majority"

Very true

I said the number is probably  closer to 20% than to 100%.

So ButtPlug, where did you get his magical number of 20% from?  From your arse, but we are meant to believe it is reliable...

So Western media is responsible for Putin invading Ukraine, because we did not indoctrinate them into Western European ways? 

Russa needs to wake up. They have a long line of Dr Evils threatening to end the world. They need to get rid of the KGB gangsters and have standard politicians. 

Some believe that the main reason Putin attacked Ukraine, is that Russians were seeing Ukraine becoming Westernized and Democratic with a proper Democratic leader.

This was making more Russians want to become more like the EU and the new Ukraine with true Democratic leadership, so Putin's main goal is to takeout the Ukrainian government - even more so than taking over Ukraine.

The sensible Russians can see that the economic Democratic alliances that Ukraine was making, were going to take its economy forward. 

All while Russia was stuck selling gas and oil until green energy made it irrelevant. When that happens Russia will not have a pot to piss in. 

Can You Be Tracked with a VPN? (by your ISP, employer or ...

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  Can police track your VPN activity - Surfshark

  https://surfshark.com › blog › can-police-track-vpn15 Dec 2021 — Police can't track live, encrypted VPN traffic, but if they have a court order, they can go to your ISP (Internet Service Provider) and request ... Rating: 3.8 · ?33 reviews

Putin is part of the KGB, he is a spy- it is what he knows best. His government can acess internet service providers, so he could work out who is using VPN's - and track co-ordination between people by monitoring communications.

Thank you ButtPlug, for this entertainment. 

Russia Bans VPN's - and "no" Putin did not order this (wink, wink)

ButtPlug, ButtPlug - why would a dictatorship that goes to great lengths to control the traditional mass media, but not look to ban internet media? 

Dictatorships do not want a free media because it means freedom of communication and expression. 

All Putin needs to do is contact the ISP's and the VPN providers and arrest them if they don't toe the line. And it would be easy for him to track the IP and match them to people's addresses. ISP and VPNS can ban keywords (pieces of content) - and whole websites. 

Hall Of Fame

9176 posts

hahahaha

Yeah, i’m sure they have budget for that.

My god man.

How are you so clueless when you literally use the internet for employment?

You can’t carry our mass surveillance on VPNs numpty. It’s case by case. And to determine the content of the the traffic…you have to approach the VPN provider and convince them that the service was used in the pursuit of criminal activity. Now, how far up where the sun don’t shine would most VPN providers tell Russian police to shove such a request? You already know the answer.

And what do you think anyway? Like i’m suggesting people would assassinate Putin?

For the last time, you irretrievably moronic tit, i’m talking about influencing the average Russian into changing their stance and moving closer to Western thinking. I’m not talking about some Dr Evil plan to meet at midnight, sneak in through the basement, and shove mercury up Putin’s butthole while he sleeps.

What is wrong with you?