Second test against the Windies

Sorry, I'm not interested in whether he was hyped, so to be sure, is he a Dud? And if so would you drop him, think I've already asked this same question in my header post.

So a Rookie flops and you'd drop him. Well here's a list of legends and their scores 

having played exactly the same amount of Tests(2) as Kyle Verryenne.

Steve Waugh

Innings List

Inns

Score

Overs

Conc

Wkts

Ct

St

Opposition

Ground

Start Date

1

13

-

-

-

-

-

v India

Melbourne

26 Dec 1985

Test # 1033

2

-

11.0

36

2

0

0

v India

Melbourne

26 Dec 1985

Test # 1033

3

5

-

-

-

-

-

v India

Melbourne

26 Dec 1985

Test # 1033

4

-

DNB

-

-

0

0

v India

Melbourne

26 Dec 1985

Test # 1033

1

-

7.0

33

0

0

0

v India

Sydney

2 Jan 1986

Test # 1034

2

8

-

-

-

-

-

v India

Sydney

2 Jan 1986

Test # 1034

3

0

-

-

-

-

-

v India

Sydney

2 Jan 1986

Test # 1034

Matthew Hayden

Career averages

Span

Mat

Runs

HS

Bat Av

100

Wkts

BBI

Bowl Av

5

Ct

St

Ave Diff

overall

1994-2009

103

8625

380

50.73

30

0

-

-

0

128

0

-

Profile

Innings by innings list

Inns

Score

Overs

Conc

Wkts

Ct

St

Opposition

Ground

Start Date

1

-

DNB

-

-

1

0

v South Africa

Johannesburg

4 Mar 1994

Test # 1252

2

15

-

-

-

-

-

v South Africa

Johannesburg

4 Mar 1994

Test # 1252

3

-

DNB

-

-

0

0

v South Africa

Johannesburg

4 Mar 1994

Test # 1252

4

5

-

-

-

-

-

v South Africa

Johannesburg

4 Mar 1994

Test # 1252

1

5

-

-

-

-

-

v West Indies

Melbourne

26 Dec 1996

Test # 1346

2

-

DNB

-

-

0

0

v West Indies

Melbourne

26 Dec 1996

Test # 1346

3

0

-

-

-

-

-

v West Indies

Melbourne

26 Dec 1996

Test # 1346

4

-

DNB

-

-

2

0

v West Indies

Melbourne

26 Dec 1996

Test # 1346

Kagiso is coming on nicely.

Just wish he could spend a month with Hoggard or Akram. Preferably the former.  

All that's missing is just a few inches more movement on his inswinger. He doesn't strike with it enough despite have the perfect setup. 

Regardless, very happy with how he's leading the attack. Couldn't ask for more really.

And here’s Barry Richards, another player who at 24 years of age was ‘overdue’…..in his 3rd test innings:

Selectors pick players who they believe will contribute immediately to the cause. Test cricket is not a nursery.  Boucher has been hesitant to pick Verrynne, obviously because he felt the kid wouldn’t  be a positive. 

He was right. Just accept that the kid was hopelessly over hyped and several posters on here were guilty of jumping onto that bandwagon.

Verrynne was never a ‘pick’ of mine….so ‘dropping him’ merely acknowledges that.

Have I answered your ‘header post’ question or is my position still confusing you?

Mozart

Reasonable question about the following statement:-

"I thought not….you can’t take Bellville out the boy."

Who is the "boy" you are referring to in this case?

Mozart, just another if you may, would you promote a young player with a First C lass average of 50 or 60 to the national side?

Would you select the National side solely based on statistics?

Do you mean all of the national side? I'm not talking about selecting the national side, I'm questioning the criteria you use to promote a player r from the domestic  to international level.

And again I ask, would you select a player who averages 50-60 in domestic First Class to the national test side?

Tx

I’m trying to gently point out that if his average is dispositive we might as well select the whole team based on batting and bowling averages. 

Mozart

Still no answer

Reasonable question about the following statement:-

"I thought not….you can’t take Bellville out the boy."

Who is the "boy" you are referring to in this case?

Just one further question -  how is performances in cricket to be evaluated if  bowliong and batting stats is to be ignored?        

"I’m trying to gently point out that if his average is dispositive we might as well select the whole team based on batting and bowling averages."

And while you're failing to answer the question I'll gently ask again, what criteria  would you use to promote a promising young batsman?

If you can't or won't answer then feel free to ignore the question.

"Ou Draad can’t you be honest for once on this Board and admit Ou Maaik is lying through his teeth.

Verrynne has been hopelessly hyped….his absence the reason we aren’t winning….evidence of an incompetent coaching staff. To me he looks marginal at best.

It's not about honesty, it's about perspective...

The point is selecting young batsmen is not the primary objective…..having a team is. When you have an established team you swop out a player for a young challenger when you are convinced the balance of what he brings to the team exceeds that of the incumbent.

That includes experience in different conditions, all the skills including fielding …..and if you have an ounce of nous, you weigh the effect the change will have on the morale of the team.

Are you beginning to see the light? If not read about the struggle Barry Richards had to finally break through.

Here is a simple test for you Draad sitter. Mike said above that Kallis never scored more than 15 runs in any innings in his first 10 tests. That’s not an opinion like my view of Verrynne’s press……it’s a simple verifiable fact.

I proved my point on this string by providing Kallis’ first 10 tests straight from ESPN stats guru. Mike responded by saying he played all the tests against England in 95/96 ….a palpable lie.

Do you have the basic integrity as a human being to call the lie? Or are you once again going to pretend that it’s ‘my truth’ or ‘his truth’.

You are 100% right about the Century in his seventh test and Mike was 100% wrong about him not making a century in his first 10 tests. 

Maaik is confusing the facts and sometimes too stubborn to admit when he's wrong. That doesn't necessarily make him a deliberate liar. 

The crux of his argument was that Kallis had a slow start to his test career and that Verreynne shouldn't be dropped after just 2 tests(and should be given a bit more time before being discarded) ... being wrong about the exact amount of tests it took Kallis to make his mark in test cricket does not invalidate the whole argument...it makes him wrong about some of the facts, not about the conclusion...that still remains to be seen.

And I don't appreciate being accused of dishonesty.

We should stop talking about Kallis.

It's like brining up a much loved dead relative. 

We all remember them, know how great they were but any mention of their name just makes you realise what a hole they left behind. 

Let's talk Andrew Hudson instead, please. 

Anyway Denny, Hayden...as complete as it gets, in any format. How damn good was that side when it's possible for a guy to average 50 and almost slip under the radar? 

I don't think I'll see a team like that again in my lifetime, in any sport. As good as Spain's footie side were for that spell some years back...And as dominant as the ABs have been, no team in the pro era touches Waugh's Australia.

You weren’t accused of dishonesty….you were accused of fence sitting and not standing up for the truth. Having said that, I have no problem with your interpretation two posts up. If Mike had simply said Kallis had a slow start and so we should give Verrynne more time, I might have disagreed with the analogy, but I would have  had no problem with somebody making it.

Here’s another example:

Hall Of Fame

43448 posts

I never said Rublev was going to win the French Open    Think what I really wrote and maybe you would not make the above inaccurate statement,       

""Ou Draad can’t you be honest for once on this Board"

If I can't be honest for once, then I'm always dishonest, not?

Moz, I'm being pedantic in some instances and lenient in others...I go with my gut and intuition and I agree with you way more often than I don't...in fact, I probably disagree with Mike much more than I do with you, but somehow it doesn't ever turn in to an issue... ever...

It's funny, I've very rarely in life, or on the internet met anyone I can't get along with or someone I really dislike, and you are definitely not one of the few exceptions...but life would be very boring if we all got along all of the time...I'm not really on the fence,  but I'm careful when navigating the grey areas...it's easy to differentiate between "black" and "white"...

And there you guys go, mentioning Kallis again.

Have you no heart?

Haha

I suppose I could have said….’can’t you be unambiguous for once’…it was said in that light. Anyway let’s forget it, but in the interests of your own prostate, don’t spend too much time of the fence.

Mozart

Youi lied again,    Lets help you out, I said I want to lay a bet on Tsitsipas  and  Rublev being in the final,,   That dimness does not mean I was laying a bet on Rublev winning,   

OK - I admit I was wrong about Kallis  - his first two tests he was poor - bot I thought he was retained in the team after that series - but he was not,    What I did remember was he cane good  against Pakistan and Australia  near to two years later. So sorry I was wrong,

But what about answering my questions above?        

"I suppose I could have said….’can’t you be unambiguous for once’…it was said in that light. Anyway let’s forget it, but in the interests of your own prostate, don’t spend too much time of the fence."

I know...you were right about Rooinek...it took me years to realize it...I really really believe you are wrong about Mike...IMO Mike's got a great deal of respect for you, and because of that your take on some of his favourite players frustrates him to the brink of insanity.

Anyway, to be fair, Moz likely hasn't seen much of the guy.

He's a quality bat, Moz.

For what I've seen of the chap, he's very sharp, can play all around the park and is good at forcing poor lengths from bowlers. A bit like AB in that sense. 

In a year or two, my feeling is, he could be our top run scorer.

Plum

Have you seen how Mozart keep inventing things that never happened when it came to De Kock, Du Toit, De Allende and keep harping on Erasmus  he has seen a lot of.    Take the latest example - he attacked De Kock for having no runs in one innings  - but still had an average of 118,50 in the two tests against the Windies?    He does that type of thing constantly - when he writes something about incidents in games be assured the way he interpreted it is total BS,    

Mozart  has a believe that age does not matter when it comes to performances and that removal of older players is a sin.   In cricket he agrees with Boucher that older players "own" their positions in the team and there is no reason to replace them - the only replacements being necessary when the older players retire on their own decision.   When I said it is BS he nearly had a seizure,    

The reason why Mozart hates some players go back for many years .    He attacked  the selectors when they replaced Graeme  Smith   with De Kock in the ODI side in 2013.    If you study what happened in the 2013 ODI's against Pakistan you would soon find out that Smith was not performing anymore .     In 4 games Smith opened the batting they won one game and lost in  3 - with Smith failing in all 4 matches.   When he was replaced the situation with De Kock was 4 matches played - four matches won,     Since then the Mozart hate campaign has been ongoing.   

The attacks on Du Toit  and De Allende went back to the same year and every example where they according to him failed  was either a distortion or worse.   Insofar as Erasmus is concerned his attacks started the moment  Erasmus was appointed to replace Coetzee.   A false history of Erasmus' coaching record was always used,   The story  that Erasmus is a chicken running away from responsibility has been ongoing since   May 2018 and is totally based on lies and worse.

I think with the latest  Stander attack - where Mozart was dead wrong - Dave decided he lost interest on the site,    The fact is what he wrote he based on two newspaper reports,   When it was pointed out that  Stander could not play  for the Lions because he had no  contract with any professional club and hence could not play for the Lions - he said a contract extension could have been arranged - but there was no evidence that  Stander applied for an extension.   That is the type of BS  Dave got sick about,   

Now back to Verrreynne - the player had the same problem  as numerous other younger players have,    If somebody - especially Dave or myself - mentions a player  with potential - the Mozart attack on that player starts and will never stop.

Moz, I  agree with almost everything you said above...I strongly believe that any replacement of incumbent players should be done mostly after a player proved himself better playing from the bench or replacing an injured player...players needs to be confident of their place in the team...competition is good, but willy-nilly changes confuses players and mess with their confidence. 

Haha, Draad

The majority of what Moz says is based in logic. Something that's in darn short supply these days.

Aug is another board member I respect quite a bit. Guy always makes good points.

Pity that Rooi demands behaving like a tit cos he's a smart guy too. Unfortunately, it's not worth wading through miles of sewage to get to the good stuff. Haha

Mozart  and his fake beliefs  cannot be trusteed to write any realistic assessment of player performances.    

Lets go from 1 to 10 now:-

1.    The  total BS dreamed up by Mozart - the World Player of the year and the top choice of De Allende as the best no  12  - according to him got too much credit for the WCC win.   His argument about hype is total baloney since the sel;ections were made by other than SA representatives.   

2.     De Kock before the age of 28 score more centuries  in ODI's than Smith scored in all his career.   The BS about moving balls started off with him noit being able to fast bowling - when that was proved to be untrue, the next one was he could not face spin bowling -- again proved to be a lie -  now it is  a moving ball.    The two players comparisons are as follows:-\

                         Batted         Average           Strike rate     Centuries

Smith                  194             37,98                  80,81               10

De Kock              123            44,74                  94,87                15

Did you ever see any criticism of Smith by  Mozart - no .   He started attacking De Kock the day he replaced  Smith as opening batsman in ODI's and it never stopped since then.  

3   Bouchjer came very near to destroying SA cricket by that incumbent policy  and reduced us to the number 7 ranking in the world..   That incumbent policy has been the source of most losses by the Proteas in every format of the game.    

4    Smith departed when he was a total under-performer and Amla was in the same situation.     Kallis left on his won accord when he retired  - he was way past his best when he left. 

5   Is back to normal BS - the fact is that a failed player according to  Mozart cannot be supported by the false reports he used on site to deal with his imagined failures.

6    Erasmus is admired world wide for saving SA Rugby from disaster,   Mozart attacked him before he even  started  working with the team.   On what did  he based the WC performances  as mediocre?     The team lost against the AB's since one of Mozart's favourite players missed an open-field tackle,    Anyway - the  AB 's admitted that  they would not have beaten the Springboks in the final.     But lets go back a bit further.    It was the first time ever that the same team that won  the Tri-Nations/Rugby Championship in a world cup year won the RWC.   Does that not mean anything?

7    A total lie as proven 50 times over.

8     A total lie as proven 50  times over.

9     There is no way that other  countries in the world select players on the basis Mozart advocates.    If an experienced player fails in other countries he is replaced.  In  SA he is not.   A team is build up over a period of years  and to keep  old players past their sell-by date is crazy.      There si no way rebuilding amongst the batting component is not necessary and the problem started  when Boucher selected 33 year-olds and older to replace 33 year-olds and older  in the team.    

By the way what basis should be used to find replacement players when older players needs to be replaced ?    Denny asked you and you  did not respond - spo please enlighten us all on that point.       

Graham Rowntree the current  Munster forward coach said this on June 5th:

‘ Two Munster players are in the 2021 Lions squad: Conor Murray, the scrum-half, and Tadhg Beirne, who covers second row and blindside flanker. But not CJ Stander, who was edged out by Taulupe Faletau and Sam Simmonds at No?8. “I was surprised by that,” Rowntree says, before giving his expert overview.

…

Dave and the Old Tart want us to believe the Munster forwards coach didn’t know Stampkar, one of the players he is coaching, wasn’t available for the Lions Tour.

Complete nonsense of course…..game, set and match.

How the hell are you so stupid.   No international  team will include a player that has no professional contract with either the national team or  in the UK and Ireland  with a club.    

Name one  player who without such a contract  played for in the case  UK Unions or Ireland please..     You ignore that basic requirement  in the case of Stander  and that is stupid,   You once claimed that Munster could have extended the contract - but there are  two parties to such  a  contract extension and Stander never applied  for or agreed to such an extension.  

Stupid argument by you - game said and match - total prejudiced idiot.    Just one more question - if Stander was as useless as you in your stupidity imagine - why did White try his utmost to get him to sign and play for the Bulls.?    White gave a precise reason why Stander refused /and  by your conduct in this case  you implied that White lied about the issue.  

Stander was an Oakdale High School pupil and he visits the school regularly - even when  he was in Ireland he made sure of one such visit a year,     I will know when  he visits  the school  and will have a chat with him on the myth you started and find out whether he really intended to play for the Lions on their SA tour and why he terminated his contract  with Munster to take affect on 30 June 2021,    Would be  interesting to hear what he himself says  about t your myth.             .  

So Rowntree didn’t know Stampkar wasn’t available? Utter rubbish…if he was picked any contractual details could easily have been sorted. 

Rowntree himself was going to be accommodated by Munster:

…..

Schplottttttttt!

Are you a total idiot.    Munster could  not have  extended  the contract  without acceptance by Stander -  and he never applied for or agreed  to an extension.    Now onto Rowntree  - what the hell has that to do  with Stander?    Stupid argument that one.      

Simple….Munster were obviously happy to make accomodations for Rowntree to tour..   just as they would have done for Stander. But as Rowntree acknowledges they surprised him by picking Faletau and Simmons instead of Stampkar. Because, as Gatland said, they wanted forwards who could run into space as opposed to running into tacklers.

Schplottttt you Old Tart… Stampkar’s own coach admits he was overlooked.

Another stupid assumption without any foundation whatsoever.     Rowntree wanted to be in  the tour to SA and the quote you made was Stander ever mentioned?     Rowntree for family reasons in the end opted out of the tour.     There never was any indication that Stander wanted to be part of the tour,     Matter of fact he never indicated that he wanted to be on tour/    

As a matter of fact Stander said and did the exact opposite = he said he was not going to play any professional rugby after his contract with   Munster ended in June 2021.    White confirmed it and indicated clearly what happened - so now you clearly implied  that  White was lying about what happened.   

Keep it up -  you remain an idiotic prejudiced farce and it really is hilarious what your childish  conduct  in this case entails.                            

Stander said he’d drive the bus to be part of the tour. 

The man who coached him every day until well after the team was selected said he was surprised Stampkar wasn’t selected…so for you to be right, Stamp kept the secret from him.

Every journalist said Stamp was considered but not selected.

Stamp said on Facebook that he was available till after the mid year tests which are traditionally the SH tests for NH teams.

Neither Stamp nor his camp denied the prevailing story in the press that Stamp was available but not selected.

..   .. 

Nothing  new from the Old Tart, it’s still game, set and match.