Fancy starting a top level meet

That is sheer B S. Leaders of countries do not sign agreements like the Minsk agreement of 2015 - which dealt with the following:-

1. Ukraine' needs to get a new Constitution - since he previous one was abolished by th 2014 coup The Constitution is to be absed on a F ederal system of Govrnment absed on the U SA Constitution and once compile must be approved by voters in a referendum/ ,
2. 's territorial intergity will be recognized as was the ase in 2015; and.
3. Ukraine will i n tems f the 1990 agreement not become a member of NATO,

The agreement was signed by the then Ukraine President at the time, Putin and the Easr Ukraine leadership and countersigned by Merkel nd MMcron. After that it was submitted to the UN S ecurity Council and approved.

There is nothing about Russian domination in the agreement and the unfortunate Part is the Obama Administation undemined the agreement and did not submit it for confgress cofirmation. The real situation was that the Ukraine Govenment since 2014 was under total control of the USA and although the Civil War continued in Ukraine it was in the amin a low-intensity war and Trump had other more serious was he wants ened.

S ince 2019 the Civil War in Easten Ukraine got more erious and when teh Biden Administratin took over - the USA became the real cntrollers of Ukraine and every agreement signed wa breach on instuction of the Biden Maladministration. Unlimited money was suplied to Ukraine nad the kick backs reigned supreme.

Please listen to the following interview the Ukraine Ambassador in Washington said about the present negotiations. Maybe it weil clear up a lot of Site BS:

https://www.foxnews.com/video/6368931647112

Stav...you can "rubbish " all you want ...it's opinion...just like my take is opinion...what is fact though is that probably a million people are dead and the country is in ruins...

Stav...you can "rubbish " all you want ...it's opinion...just like my take is opinion

And I will rubbish it.

what is fact though is that probably a million people are dead and the country is in ruins...

Its not a fact, its a complete made up bullshit number. There is not a single credible source that puts the dead at over a million or anywhere even near that.

A for the country in ruins. Bullshit. Some cities taken by the Russian's in the easy have been destroyed, but the likes of Kyiv, Lviv, Odessa etc are still functioning like normal. Cafe's are still open, the trains run on time etc.

Facts and reality matter Draad, look them up instead of just mindlessly parroting rubbish.

Tell that to the families of the fallen ...OK, so 20% of the country in ruin?...how long will it take for another 20%? You refuse to see what's right in front of you.

"Its not a fact, its a complete made up bullshit number. There is not a single credible source that puts the dead at over a million or anywhere even near that."

So how many dead in your opinion...both sides...?

"While accurate casualty figures are difficult to come by, in September 2024, The Wall Street Journal estimated that the war had already resulted in more than one million casualties, with more than 250,000 dead and some 800,000 wounded.4 days ago"

Yes, I was wrong...should have said dead and wounded.

I feel so much better now....not...

"Chat response summary-In summary, the general consensus was that Russia’s demands were not in good faith. They appeared to be more about securing Russian dominance over Ukraine and reasserting control over the region, rather than addressing genuine security concerns. This, combined with Russia's aggressive actions in the preceding years, led many to conclude that Russia was not seeking a peaceful resolution but rather was preparing the groundwork for a full-scale invasion."

Anything to support the narrative that ended up killing so many.

It's not a secret that Putin would have negotiated in bad faith. Of course he would. Without getting into the definition of bad faith, it's worth remembering that bad faith can mean a lot of things. From asking for a little touch to wiping your ass with the signed deal, it's contains a degree of bad faith.

Of course, in your mind, assuming bad faith is a convenient excuse for never even entertaining the idea of negotiations.

Perhaps you should be honest and just admit that even in light of Putin being a malevolent player, a strong showing by the West at the negotiating table may have easily averted all of this. It wasn't a certainty, nothing is, but have you ever wondered why you wouldn't even entertain the idea, even though there was a chance it could work?

Again, this is so similar to the COVID origin argument. Back then, I made numerous posts here saying that even if if there was only a 5% chance that it came from a lab, it should have been investigated to the fullest because there's a 1 in 20 chance that you learn a whole bunch about the virus very quickly. Remember how anybody talking that was rapidly shut down to cries of "follow the science"...while acting completely contrary to the basic scientific principle. Now we know it came from the Wuhan lab and had they been forced to share their information the pandemic could have been dealt with more efficiently.

When the Russia/Ukraine war started, again there were those of us that said, "This is a diplomatic failure and negotiation is for sure worth a shot. Ukraine won't win this war and will be worse if when they do try to negotiate down the road." We were yelled down by the same groups of people that promised us COVID came from animals, but this time they sang "Ukraine to the last man" while defence contractors eyed up profit.

"Overall, the world's top 100 defense contractors amassed $632 billion in combined revenue in 2023, marking a real-term annual growth of more than 4%. This increase is largely attributed to ongoing conflicts, including the war in Ukraine."

It's interesting to note that even after the outcome, which no matter what you say, has left Ukraine in a far worse position to negotiate...you still refuse to accept that negotiations at outset was the best option.

One would think that new an evolving information would be able shift one's mental narrative.

Apparently, not. I mean, you're still here defending the idea negotiation wasn't a viable strategy.

Tell that to the families of the fallen ...OK, so 20% of the country in ruin?...how long will it take for another 20%? You refuse to see what's right in front of you.

Again this shows your incapable of applying logical thinking to the situation. 20% of Ukraine has been captured. That doesn't necessarily mean it was destroyed. Not every city, town and village was fought over. Russia took alot of territory early days on the march so to speak and they already controlled maybe 8-9% of the territory before they invaded.

So in 3 years of total war Russia has capture maybe 11% of Ukraine and most of what the captured was in the earlier phase of the war where they where able to advance much more quickly. Since then the Russia rate of advance has slowed to a remarkable level. How long will take them to take another 20%, maybe 6-8 years at the cost of several hundred thousand dead and many more hundreds of thousands wounded.

So how many dead in your opinion...both sides...?

In my opinion Ukraine's military dead is probably around 70,000- 80,000. The UN put the number of Ukrainian civilians killed at 12,000 at the end of 2024 which is probably an under count but its not massively out.

Russia's its hard to say but they have had more killed. Probably over double Ukrainian deaths, maybe more.

Yes, I was wrong...should have said dead and wounded.

I feel so much better now....not...

LOL your adding in the Russian causalities. Do you weep for the 4 million dead Nazi troops killed in the second world war as well?

Of course, in your mind, assuming bad faith is a convenient excuse for never even entertaining the idea of negotiations.

Garbage, negotiations where entertained both before and after the invasion.

1. Zelensky proposed to meet with Putin on February 19, 2022 — just five days before Russia launched its full-scale invasion.[18] Putin ignored this request and invaded Ukraine on February 24, 2022.[19]
2. Zelensky called for direct talks with Putin "in any format" in March 2022 and offered to compromise on Ukraine's accession into NATO.[20] The Russians demanded the full surrender and demilitarization of Ukraine.[21]
3. Zelensky also expressed openness to discussing the status of occupied Ukrainian territories on the condition that the Ukrainian people would ratify any deal through a referendum.[22] Putin rejected that offer as well.

Perhaps you should be honest and just admit that even in light of Putin being a malevolent player, a strong showing by the West at the negotiating table may have easily averted all of this. It wasn't a certainty, nothing is, but have you ever wondered why you wouldn't even entertain the idea, even though there was a chance it could work?

What strong negotiating position should the west have taken? I'm all ears.

Again, this is so similar to the COVID origin argument. Back then, I made numerous posts here saying that even if if there was only a 5% chance that it came from a lab, it should have been investigated to the fullest because there's a 1 in 20 chance that you learn a whole bunch about the virus very quickly. Remember how anybody talking that was rapidly shut down to cries of "follow the science"...while acting completely contrary to the basic scientific principle. Now we know it came from the Wuhan lab and had they been forced to share their information the pandemic could have been dealt with more efficiently.

Christ on a bike.

When the Russia/Ukraine war started, again there were those of us that said, "This is a diplomatic failure and negotiation is for sure worth a shot. Ukraine won't win this war and will be worse if when they do try to negotiate down the road." We were yelled down by the same groups of people that promised us COVID came from animals, but this time they sang "Ukraine to the last man" while defence contractors eyed up profit.

Idiotic strawman.

"Overall, the world's top 100 defense contractors amassed $632 billion in combined revenue in 2023, marking a real-term annual growth of more than 4%. This increase is largely attributed to ongoing conflicts, including the war in Ukraine."

The video gaming industry boomed during Covid. Clearly the video game industry was behind Covid 19.

One would think that new an evolving information would be able shift one's mental narrative.

LOL says the man that starts with the conclusion and works his narrative around it.

Apparently, not. I mean, you're still here defending the idea negotiation wasn't a viable strategy.

There was negotiations, chatgpt it. Russia wasn't willing to make any compromises on its demands.

"LOL your adding in the Russian causalities. Do you weep for the 4 million dead Nazi troops killed in the second world war as well?"

No I don't weep for them... but they were people too ...any loss of life on this scale is tragic...soldiers follow orders...it's the leaders that's evil...your lack of empathy for the Russian soldiers is telling.

No I don't weep for them... but they were people too ...any loss of life on this scale is tragic...soldiers follow orders...it's the leaders that's evil...your lack of empathy for the Russian soldiers is telling.

I've empathy to an extent but not to any that have willingly signed up to go Ukraine or those that have conducted war crimes. When it comes down too it the more Russian soldier's killed the better it is for Ukraine, the less likely they are too go on and inflict suffering and pain on Ukrainian's. The Russian troops always have the option of surrendering to the Ukrainians.

Lol Stav, I don't have a narrative.

I just made a prediction when Russia invaded Ukraine, and it came to pass.

So I guess my "narrative" is common sense, or fact.

And no, I'm not gonna pretend to know how the West should have supported Ukraine at negotiations. What I do know is that the West was not very interested in negotiations because they, like you, believed that any concession given to Russia meant they would be allowing Russia to bully a sovereign state. On the surface this seem reasonable, but reality is a different beast and it doesn't care about what is reasonable. I tried to tell you this yonks ago. But you kept telling us how Russian victory wasn't certain, how Ukraine were doing so well, how there were so many dead Ruskies, how the war map looked convincing for Ukraine. So much absolute bollocks.

The West was very skeptical and far more interested in supporting Ukraine militarily. You know this, so don't be dishonest. The reason you want to claim that there were negotiations is because you were, and still are, on team "chuck endless military/economic support at Ukraine and that will solve the problem".

It failed.

We're now into year 3, Ukraine is running out of soldiers and has lost 20% of its territory to Russia.

Perhaps it's just difficult to admit that the option you most wanted ended up not benefiting Ukraine at all.

‘LOL your adding in the Russian causalities. Do you weep for the 4 million dead Nazi troops killed in the second world war as well?

……….

In death they were just young men, brainwashed into an ideology. If you drive from Kifisia a northern suburb of Athens down to the sea, you travel over a mountain pass.

Near the top there is a small sign marking a German cemetery. It’s a remote place with no decorative gardens, no flowers on the graves, windswept. No other people are around.

There are multiple bodies in each cement slab topped grave. The names all German and the birthdates suggest ages probably averaging between eighteen and twenty years. These were boys.

Yes we should feel something.

bump

Uggh wrote out a long response to Plum and then my internet crapped out as I hit post and I lost it, will respond tomorrow.

Gosh I never thought it would work.

3 year anniversary tomorrow........................ slight extension to the predicted 3 days.

Slava Ukraine !!

"Precisely, where's the consistency. DA has accused me in the past of not seeing what's going on my doorstep but apparently if I can't comment about South Africa."

I got what you were doing, and why you were doing it, and in fact agree with your point, but as I said, you could have chosen a far better way to express your thoughts on that particular issue, because you have no idea at all just how sensitive and serious this is in South Africa

Also, where have I been derogatory or insulting to anything Ireland related..... anything at all ...even sarcastically ...

Of course you can post whatever the hell you want to about South Africa, nobody ever said you couldn't.... hell, I would fully expect you to at some point, considering everything that we discuss on here.

However.... your repeated insulting comments about the White farmers in particular, was over the line, and it certainly does not count as sarcasm to me, not even close......that was just a very deliberate and disgusting pop at a populance of people who are systematcally getting beaten, tortured, raped and killed in the worst most heinous ways possible..... every single working day in South Africa.....and they are also not fighting to save their land, they are just trying to provide for their families and this country .....and it is something that you know absolutely nothing about without having to live with it every living day.

The Ukranian people also fall in this category, in so many similar ways, but the way you decided to approach it, especially with the specific wording about White farmers that you chose, was disgusting.

So yeah..... if you believe that this discussion was the perfect opportunity for you to make some sort of sick and stupid sarcastic comparison about soldiers dying on the battlefield defending their country....compared to "egotistical and vain White farm leaders" who are "not saints" themselves, who should just "give up", then yeah....it still says a lot about you to me

Ah, the genocide going on in South Africa, a real one contrary to the one claimed to happen in Gazza. And those farmers provide so much to their own country cannibalism is not rampant in South Africa. Rather funny to see that liberals cling to their old antics claiming that violence only matters when it is directed against white people. While themselves can deliver as much violence they can without being hindered.

DumbAss, I know you're not the shiniest coin in the fountain but Stav was using your lot's same arguments about the Ukrainians not having the right to defend their land in a South African context and just look how you little hypocrites got yourselves into a froth.

LMAO!

I just made a prediction when Russia invaded Ukraine, and it came to pass.

You made a prediction and now you claim it's come true when it hasn't.

So I guess my "narrative" is common sense, or fact.

No its a narrative.

And no, I'm not gonna pretend to know how the West should have supported Ukraine at negotiations.

What the west did was wrong, they should have done something else shouts Plum.

What should they have done, we ask.

F**ked if I know replies Plum.

But you kept telling us how Russian victory wasn't certain, how Ukraine were doing so well, how there were so many dead Ruskies, how the war map looked convincing for Ukraine. So much absolute bollocks

So with your infinite knowledge of military matters, explain to me why Ukraine's present military situation is so dire, where is it imminent collapse and defeat going to come from on the battlefield. And I'm not interested in some lazy generic comment like Ukraine is running out of gas or it has no troops.

The West was very skeptical and far more interested in supporting Ukraine militarily. You know this, so don't be dishonest.

The west was quite right to be skeptical given Russia past track record and the extremely dubious nature of their demands. It was clear the Russian's had no intentions of good faith negotiations, they just wanted a pretext to invade Ukraine. But its complete garbage revisionism to say they where far interested in supporting Ukraine military. The west expected Ukraine to fall to Russia before they could offer any significant assistance, overestimating Russia's capabilities and underestimating Ukraine's. What they sent to Ukraine in the first few weeks wouldn't have been enough had the Russian's been any near capable as the west believed them to be before the war started.

The reason you want to claim that there were negotiations is because you were, and still are, on team "chuck endless military/economic support at Ukraine and that will solve the problem".

It failed.

It hasn't succeeded but nor has it failed. As the Institute of War put it, Putin's theory of victory is that Russia can win by outlasting the west, as the west is weak, it will lose its resolve and will eventually abandon Ukraine. He just needs people to abandon critical thinking and to think like you and Trump, that Russia is invincible and it can keep doing what's presently doing forever. Now he could be right and that Ukraine does eventually fall because the US pulls back and Europe doesn't step up sufficiently to cover the short fall. But that's not the same as Russia defeating Ukraine that is being supported by the west, it will be Russia defeating Ukraine because it was abandoned by the west.

We're now into year 3, Ukraine is running out of soldiers and has lost 20% of its territory to Russia.

Tell me what's the size of Ukraines armed forces and what's the size of Russia forces committed to fighting Ukraine. Has Zelensky mobilized the under 25 cohort?

As for Ukraine loosing 20% of its territory. 8-9% of that territory was taken in 2014. Of the other 11% most of that was captured in the first couple of months of the war when Russia was able to advance on multiple axis and it had a much greater superiority in nearly all aspects of war. In 2024 Russia captured around just 0.66% of Ukraine's territory at the cost of hundreds of thousands of causalities.

Perhaps it's just difficult to admit that the option you most wanted ended up not benefiting Ukraine at all.

Perhaps it's difficult to admit you don't actually have understanding of what's happening in Ukraine. But that isn't surprising when your posting videos from Russel Brandt on the Ukraine war and expect it to be taken seriously.

So yeah..... if you believe that this discussion was the perfect opportunity for you to make some sort of sick and stupid sarcastic comparison about soldiers dying on the battlefield defending their country....compared to "egotistical and vain White farm leaders" who are "not saints" themselves, who should just "give up", then yeah....it still says a lot about you to me

OMG I can't believe I have to explain this. I clearly don't believe that white farmers are fighting over their land out of ego or vanity, that they provoked what happening to them or that they should just give up.

For years we have had posters here, imply that Ukraine is at least partly to blame for whats happening to them, that Ukrainian's are fighting on out of a desire for glory and that fighting over land and national identity isn't worth it and it really doesn't matter who rules over Ukrainian, one leader is a good as another.

I'm merely pointing out how it would look if they applied the same logic to the situation in South Africa. Why are you not angry with those posters, they actually believe that about Ukraine (a situation that in orders of magnitude is far worse than what's happening in South Africa). I don't believe what I said about South African's, I just said it to make a point. Is it because they are more ideological aligned with you in general that you give them a free pass on Ukraine?

"OMG I can't believe I have to explain this. I clearly don't believe that white farmers are fighting over their land out of ego or vanity"

I know you don't, but then neither are the Ukranian people either, so I don't get the comparison at all....unless of course you do believe that the Ukranian people have been fighting this war for the past 3 years, for their own ego's or other vain reasons..

The Ukrainian people are fighting out of national pride to protect their very way of existence.... not ego or vanity which is what you compared them to when referencing our SA White farmers, which makes no sense at all... so no, I don't see the need to insult White farmers in this way, even sarcastically, unless you believe that Ukraine is fighting for ego and vanity, which I definitely don't, and neither are our farmers, because if they were, your comparison would be spot on.

"I'm merely pointing out how it would look if they applied the same logic to the situation in South Africa."

It is not the same logic at all, not even close.... and you keep missing that specific point.

Where do you ascertain that our White farmers could be fighting some war over their ego or vanity, explain that to me, unless of course you believe that this is what Ukraine are actually doing, for ego and vanity, otherwise why the comparison.......because even if you meant it sarcastically to draw some kind of comparison to what is happening in Ukraine and South Africa, you are still nowhere even close .....

If the White farmers here in SA were fighting some unnecessary stupid war to stroke their own ego or vanity, I would 100% agree with you, because you would have a very strong and accurate point to put forward, but they aren't, and never have done this, so there is literally no accurate logic or comparison of yours to make here.... at all...not even sarcastically... hence why I said, you know absolutely nothing about what the farmers are doing and going through here every day.

The White farmers in South Africa are being systematically and continuously and randomly viciously attacked and tortured, even stalked over periods of time, before being attacked.... and sometimes being forced to watch what happens to their own children and spouses right in front of them before they are finally killed, so there is no ego or vanity involved here at all...... just basic survival

So either you did and still do believe that the Ukranian people were fighting this war for egotistical and vanity reasons, which is why you made the ill advised and sarcastic and direct comparison to White South African farmers with ego and vanity issues who should just give up like some people want the Ukranians to do..... or you simply got it wrong.

"Why are you not angry with those posters, they actually believe that about Ukraine (a situation that in orders of magnitude is far worse than what's happening in South Africa). I don't believe what I said about South African's, I just said it to make a point. Is it because they are more ideological aligned with you in general that you give them a free pass on Ukraine?"

I have not given anyone a free pass on Ukraine, but it is possible that I have not seen the posts that you are referring to... simple.

Liberals insisting they are not racist... No one else is assaulting in South Africa but white farmers? Looking at the figures of criminality,it is hard to believe.

so I don't get the comparison at all

Posters have made claims that Ukraine is fighting this war for glory or that Zelensky has Ukraine fighting on for his own personal gain.

There is also numerous posts in the tone of Ukraine's blindly fighting a proxy war on behalf of the west which denies or belittles Ukraines own agency which is highly insult. Not to mention posters who have outright given credence to Russia's claim Ukraine being run by Nazi's or distorting Ukraine's role in World War II.

The Ukrainian people are fighting out of national pride to protect their very way of existence

Even using the term pride in this context is insulting. Of course Ukrainian's are proud of their country like most people are proud of their country, but their fight is an existential fight for survival not of pride, its nota fight they want so they can boast about beating the Russians.

So either you did and still do believe that the Ukranian people were fighting this war for egotistical and vanity reasons, which is why you made the ill advised and sarcastic and direct comparison to White South African farmers with ego and vanity issues who should just give up like some people want the Ukranians to do..... or you simply got it wrong.

Of course I don't think the Ukranian's are fighting for ego or vanity, I'm absolutely baffled how anyone could say that with the numerous posts over the years I'm made about about the Ukraine war where I've defended the Ukrainians from highly insulting and derogatory remarks made by other posters. I didn't get anything wrong, you simply misunderstood the point I was making.

I have not given anyone a free pass on Ukraine, but it is possible that I have not seen the posts that you are referring to... simple.

Well fair enough, but its about odd that you haven't spotted any of them.

"Posters have made claims that Ukraine is fighting this war for glory or that Zelensky has Ukraine fighting on for his own personal gain."

I have not ever read that, and if I did, I wouldn't agree with it, no matter who posted it.

"Not to mention posters who have outright given credence to Russia's claim Ukraine being run by Nazi's"

You might not remember, but even I have come out against this statement before.... more than once.

"Even using the term pride in this context is insulting. Of course Ukrainian's are proud of their country like most people are proud of their country, but their fight is an existential fight for survival not of pride, its nota fight they want so they can boast about beating the Russians"

I said pride, and I also said this is a fight for their own way of existence .... I made that quite clear.

"Of course I don't think the Ukranian's are fighting for ego or vanity, I'm absolutely baffled how anyone could say that with the numerous posts over the years I'm made about about the Ukraine war where I've defended the Ukrainians from highly insulting and derogatory remarks made by other posters. I didn't get anything wrong, you simply misunderstood the point I was making."

So have I, and as I said right after you posted your first comment about White farmers, you could have found a far better way to express your opinion on this, especially due to just how serious this issue has gripped our entire nation ....I got your point when you first made it, but just didn't appreciate how you put it across, it was crass and insensitive.

I have not seen nor can I remember any posters making these specific comments about Ukraine or it's people that you speak about here, and there probably are some of these comments floating around....and if you have seen them, fine, but I did not misunderstand anything at all that you posted here, I based my response solely off what you posted about South African White farmers and not what some other posters have apparently posted about Ukraine in the past...

"Well fair enough, but its about odd that you haven't spotted any of them."

About as odd as you never seeing all the posts that Piers makes in favour of Muslims...

I can also play that game

I must of missed it but is Piers Morgan posting on this forum?

We do assume a certain amount of political literacy on the Board Anger, up your game man you are being slaughtered by DA on this string.

Adorable effort at trolling Moz. Bless your little heart.

I would suggest Stavanger 2, time to abandon 1.

Lol @ Moz

"I must of missed it but is Piers Morgan posting on this forum?"

Nope, and neither does Zelensky, or Putin, or Trump.... etc etc ... but that definitely doesn't stop you from posting regular '"facts" on this forum about each of them ....

LOL.....see.... I can still also play that game.

Hang in there Stav, they don't know shit from sugar.

Hang in there Stav, they don't know shit from sugar.

Hang in there? LOL you actually think these clowns are remotely capable of bothering me in the slightest. On the other hand I think these two have developed a bit of an obsession in being perceived to win an argument with me on this forum. Though I think Moz has largely thrown in the towel at this point and mostly just tries to troll me but he's too inept even too do that.

So funny though, Moz the other made a post the other night about all the big jobs he had, the CEO type of various companies and a person who ran multiple charities. I can't see the post anymore so I assume he edited because even he reckoned it was too obnoxiously boastful.

Now I've no idea if he was telling the truth or not, but I find it absolutely hilarious and also kinda sad that a person who proclaims to have this stellar education followed by a highly successful career, who should probably be a multi-millionaire and should be out enjoying their retirement, traveling the world or cruising around on his luxury yacht, spends so much of his free time online obsessively trying to win arguments with a random person who lives in a different country and he's never met or doesn't even know his name on an obscure internet rugby forum with handful of members.

No Stav, you handle em with aplomb, just sad to see how many Trumpanzees there are amongst us.

3 years ago there wus Beansht & ouMaaik in Putin's corner, thats it, now there's a troop of Tpanzees goose-stepping to whatever madness that batshit & evil pair concoct.

Who'd believe that the mighty US would stand in solidarity alongside Russia, Iran, Israel, NKorea & Belarus ?

"Who'd believe that the mighty US would stand in solidarity alongside Russia, Iran, Israel, NKorea & Belarus ?"

Why was this resolution brought to vote now? The war is 3 years old...America opposed it because they are busy trying to establish some sort of peace deal in Ukrain...it's called diplomacy...duh, something the world forgot about the last 3 years.

"No its a narrative."

An accurate narrative since Ukraine ARE running out of soldiers. 2024 saw the most desertions of positions since the war began and it's no looking like slowing down. The Ukrainian position grows more dire by the day.

"What the west did was wrong, they should have done something else shouts Plum.

What should they have done, we ask.

F**ked if I know replies Plum."

I'm not a politician, nor am I versed in negotiations. So I'm not going to pretend to be. But what I do know is a) Ukraine would always have needed oodles of support to remain competitive in this war, b) Russia has larger human stocks and c) the West could never directly support Ukraine with manpower.

So it didn't take a genius to realise that the option for Ukraine to fight would always be there, but the opportunity to prevent a war was only available briefly, and it was at least worth exploring.

So, while you are firm in the belief that Ukraine and NATO never needed to negotiate with Russia, Russia did table a list of demands and would perhaps have settled for Ukraine not joining NATO.

And all I am saying is, refuse to negotiate and war is inevitable. Negotiate and it does not work, then war happens anyway. Negotiate and agree to red lines, and perhaps you could prevent the war.

The fact that there was never an attempt to prevent this outcome was a massive failure in diplomacy.

It's not a perfect world and sometimes you have to swallow a bitter pill to prevent a far worse outcome.

I don't need to be a NATO politician to understand that.

But you were all about "Slava Ukraine", happy to send the kid to fight in a battle where it was obvious he could not win on his own and that support could not continue forever.

And now the US, correct me if I'm wrong, are withdrawing support. Will Europe support Ukraine for another 3 years? How long will the average European agree to their tax money going to war that Ukraine can't ever win?

-Edit: If what I'm reading is correct, Ukraine have agree to a deal.

It's inevitable that at some point that support will dry up, and Russia will have Ukraine under their thumb. And at that point, Russia will get far more of what they wanted than they would have had NATO actually taken them seriously and at least attempted negotiations.

...but even after all of that happens, you'll still not be able to admit that that you were wrong.

...you'll still hide behind the sovereign nation argument.

...and you'll still be telling us what a bad man Putin is.

"So with your infinite knowledge of military matters, explain to me why Ukraine's present military situation is so dire, where is it imminent collapse and defeat going to come from on the battlefield. And I'm not interested in some lazy generic comment like Ukraine is running out of gas or it has no troops."

Don't be petty or sarcastic. I treat you well even if we disagree.

Well, I will point you to the fact that Ukrainians are breaking the law and protesting the war, because they have had enough. And I'm also gonna request that you take a look at the desertion statistics.

The only thing keeping them going is foreign aid.

So, the question kinda goes back to you. How long do you anticipate the current status quo of Ukraine fighting with other people's money being able to continue?

Because the moment it dries up, they are done for.

"The west was quite right to be skeptical given Russia past track record and the extremely dubious nature of their demands. It was clear the Russian's had no intentions of good faith negotiations, they just wanted a pretext to invade Ukraine. But its complete garbage revisionism to say they where far interested in supporting Ukraine military. The west expected Ukraine to fall to Russia before they could offer any significant assistance, overestimating Russia's capabilities and underestimating Ukraine's. What they sent to Ukraine in the first few weeks wouldn't have been enough had the Russian's been any near capable as the west believed them to be before the war started."

1) Are you sure that drawing out the war doesn't suit Russia? That they might not be wanting to take it to the later rounds because they anticipate economic support for Ukraine drying up?

2) Are you sure that, at 2-3.5% GDP growth, they haven't used the war to stimulate their economy?

I don't know the answers to those questions.

Do you?

"It hasn't succeeded but nor has it failed. As the Institute of War put it, Putin's theory of victory is that Russia can win by outlasting the west, as the west is weak, it will lose its resolve and will eventually abandon Ukraine. He just needs people to abandon critical thinking and to think like you and Trump, that Russia is invincible and it can keep doing what's presently doing forever. Now he could be right and that Ukraine does eventually fall because the US pulls back and Europe doesn't step up sufficiently to cover the short fall. But that's not the same as Russia defeating Ukraine that is being supported by the west, it will be Russia defeating Ukraine because it was abandoned by the west."

Yes, and it's obvious that the abandonment is going to occur at some point. It was always obvious. And then Russia will really have its way.

I warned you about this.

Euro politicians might never grow tired of grandstanding and virtue signalling, but the European people will get tired of it.

Now, I know you would probably want to accuse me of supporting Russia. You can take that position if you want to.

But my actual position since all of this started was that sometimes you have to negotiate with the devil to prevent yourself from living hell.

I still, and will likely always, see this war as a massive diplomatic failure that cost needless lives.

I'm not interested in chanting the latest slogan than will signal my virtue to the world. I think only about outcomes in situations like these.

"Tell me what's the size of Ukraines armed forces and what's the size of Russia forces committed to fighting Ukraine. Has Zelensky mobilized the under 25 cohort?"

Why don't you use the internet. Use any Ai search engine that you like and have a look at the current state of Ukraine's human stocks versus those of Russia.

There's nothing secret about the fact that Ukraine are running out of soldiers.

As for Ukraine loosing 20% of its territory. 8-9% of that territory was taken in 2014. Of the other 11% most of that was captured in the first couple of months of the war when Russia was able to advance on multiple axis and it had a much greater superiority in nearly all aspects of war. In 2024 Russia captured around just 0.66% of Ukraine's territory at the cost of hundreds of thousands of causalities."

Yes, 20%. As I said.

That's 1/5 of their territory. For the Saffas on the board, it's roughly equivalent if losing the WC. Damn!!!

The question is, do they look like getting much of it back any time soon?

"Perhaps it's difficult to admit you don't actually have understanding of what's happening in Ukraine. But that isn't surprising when your posting videos from Russel Brandt on the Ukraine war and expect it to be taken seriously."

I only posted it because it spliced together the amount of times "It's not about NATO" was being used in the media. Which was the subject line of my post.

And Russel is a classic. I do find him hilarious. His stand-up top notch and he has a very sharp mind.

And by the way, didn't Brand turn his back on money and fame in pursuit of truth?

Now, I'm not saying he found any truth, but he did go and get himself a degree. You can chuck ad hominems all the long, but a noble pursuit is something I can respect.

When last did you turn your back on money and fame in the hopes of becoming a better person?

"On the other hand I think these two have developed a bit of an obsession in being perceived to win an argument with me on this forum

Being perceived ..... bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

LMAO ....this is coming from the same guy who has been obsessed over the last few years with trying to prove sooooooo many individual posters wrong on this forum, on so many different threads and topics, but ended up often floundering when faced with cold hard facts .....and not just assumptions which is what he often relies on to prove some imaginary point ....

Go back to most of the threads where you have interacted with posters in a discussion and you will clearly see who initiated the debate, and you often got it wrong trying to prove that you were correct and they were wrong....

Ffs. aligning with some of the most evil & corrupt dictators. You're all batshit.

Stop making excuses for your Cult Meister's chaotic stewardship.

Blo, you are sounding more looney by the day.

That started a very long time ago Plum ....

BP ask your friends at Chat about the possibility / probability on whether Trump's batshit ......