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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  France Passes Law Saying Children Can Consent To Sex With Adults

France Passes Law Saying Children Can Consent To Sex With Adults

Started by Beeno120 REPLIES2,448 VIEWS· 06 Aug 2018, 07:46
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2018, 07:46
#1
06 Aug 2018, 07:46#1

No wonder there is such a backlash going on against these satanic globalists. Of course Beeno warned that these globalist scumbags would try next to normalize pedophilia as they have tried to normalize transgenderism. Thank God President Trump is fighting these snakes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another reason why the globalists align themselves with islam.

Doubtless this news will make the day of the obscene Koos Kombuis aka rooitwit!

Beeno proved correct yet again.


President Macron’s government has voted against having an age of consent in France, becoming the latest nation to give in to pressure from an international network of liberal activists determined to normalize pedophilia and decriminalize sex with children across the world.

Federal law in France now has no legal age of consent, meaning adults who have sex with children of any age will not be prosecuted for rape if the child victim is unable to prove “violence, threat, duress, or surprise.”

The draft bill against sexual and gender-based violence, known as the Schiappa law, was signed into law by the French Parliament on 3 August, sparking outrage in France as parents and childrens’ rights groups accuse Emmanuel Macron’s government of betraying the nation’s children.

The lack of an age of consent places millions of children in serious danger of sexual abuse in France, according to child protection officials.

Childrens’ rights groups criticised Emmanuel Macron’s government for failing to provide a legal age of consent to protect children, pointing to the recent decision by French courts to refuse to prosecute two pedophiles for the rape of 11-year-old girls because authorities couldn’t prove the children did not consent.

On Thursday, several groups, including the French Council of Associations for the Rights of the Child, issued a joint statement to express their “indignation” at the abandonment of an age of consent under French law.

In a joint statement, the associations condemned the new law in the strongest possible terms: “This should be the flagship measure of the bill: the introduction of an age below which children would automatically be considered unable to consent to sex with adults.

The French child protection associations are demanding that Macron’s government revoke the Schiappa law and establish a legal age of consent under which any sexual act involving an adult and a child will constitute rape.

The abandonment of a legal age of consent has shocked French society. The controversial bill had focused on an appropriate threshold for an age of consent — 13 or 15 years. However, the choice was made to abandon the principle of a minimum age.

In its final version, the Schiappa law provides that for children under the age of 15, “the moral constraint or the surprise is characterized by the abuse of the vulnerability of the victim who does not have the necessary discernment for these acts“. However, the former minister of women’s rights, Laurence Rossignol, says these notions of “vulnerability” and “discernment” leave far too much room for pedophiles to escape punishment under the law.

“Outdated laws”

France is not the only European nation moving towards the decriminalization of sex with children. According to top German immigration attorney Hans Goldsberg, laws on pedophilia are outdated and need to be abolished.

There will be the need for a consolidation of national laws under the current European system on the legal aspects of sex. Most of these national rulings don’t represent the modern social complexities of our times and are legally baseless. Some even argue that a law on the age of consent has become superfluous and should no longer exist,” claims the lawyer who has worked for more than 35 years in his field.(Sure the peds want the law changed!!!)

Support for the European motion also exists in the United States.

Just think about how 2,000 years ago the Greeks were a much more open society. We must remember that love between a man and a boy were not as taboo as today,” explains cultural anthropologist, Thomas Black, from the University of Michigan.(No doubt another virulent abortion loving anti Trumper indoctrinating US kids in his satanic garbage))

Currently the age of consent varies by state across the USA and is currently set between 16 and 18 years of age.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,224 posts
06 Aug 2018, 08:31
#2
06 Aug 2018, 08:31#2
Have you tried searching in Google to double check this? You are a backward moron. You believe anything that your tabloid media tells you. Your  Catholic/Christian Church are the ones probably trying to remove the legal age of consent the law so they can continue their child rape. Or they just prefer not to follow the law.
The law has been made stricter, but the left wing are saying it needs to be made even more stricter.

France passes new law on child rape, sexual harassment

Deutsche Welle-3 Aug 2018French parliamentarians endorsed a new law on sexual violence on Wednesday, ... France gets tough on sexual violence against minors
International-The Local France-2 Aug 2018
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
06 Aug 2018, 08:44
#3
06 Aug 2018, 08:44#3

So in other words Bean's article is fake news. 100% the opposite what what has actually happened You know, the kind of thing the satanic leftist globalists always do. Are you going to apologise for spreading fake news Beans? 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2018, 09:31
#4
06 Aug 2018, 09:31#4

Bluebok there are competing stories. Many saying the above is the case. Be assured they are trying to normaliz e pedophilia.  

The truth will come out but what these deviants are after is clear.

CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
06 Aug 2018, 10:00
#5
06 Aug 2018, 10:00#5

Shit beeno, at least man up and admit you took the bait. All your doing is confirming you dont give a shit if a news item is real or not as long as it casts your opposition in a bad light.

You know most people on here take all your postings with a pinch of salt as they know you will post anything and dont care if its true or not. Have you heard that fairy tale  ( no not the bible this time) but the one about the boy that cried wolf?

KK
Koos KombuisClub Pro409 posts
06 Aug 2018, 10:10
#6
06 Aug 2018, 10:10#6
Hahaha! Is there anyone as ignorant or as gullible as Beeno? 
I honestly don't know anyone more likely to gobble up fake news than this buffoon! As long as it suits his fascist, god-fearing, anti-Islam, Trump-loving loony right wing agenda it's legit while anything contrary is "fake news" spread by some sinister globalist conspiracy.  
Some people just shouldn't have access to the internet.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
06 Aug 2018, 11:18
#7
06 Aug 2018, 11:18#7

Beans, I even think 15 is too low! But better than nothing. I have researched a little bit this morning and all the legitimate sources contradict your article. In other words, there is no agenda, the age of 15 is now law, and that is basically that. Anything else is fake news. 

CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
06 Aug 2018, 11:31
#8
06 Aug 2018, 11:31#8

Well we all know that beeno never goes to a site that has legitimate sources for a start, he only visits conspiracy site like redneck heaven, my daddy was my mummys brother, Deliverence is in my blood and that other bastion of Chump arselicking Fox.

sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,224 posts
06 Aug 2018, 12:17
#9
06 Aug 2018, 12:17#9

Very insulting to the French as a nation, suggesting they support this type of garbage. You could get arrested for defamation of character. Falsely accusing someone of this, is almost as bad as being guilty of it yourself. 

The Church will do anything to try brainwash their minions, including blatant lies. 

Just goes to show this Globalist conspiracy is a pile of crap created by the Christians themselves.

KK
Koos KombuisClub Pro409 posts
06 Aug 2018, 13:24
#10
06 Aug 2018, 13:24#10
"The Church will do anything to try brainwash their minions, including blatant lies."
Some of the minions don't need a lot of brainwashing as evidenced by the bible-bashing fundamentalist who started this thread . . . the same drooling half-wit who's always accusing others of believing "fake news".
Hahahahaha!

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Aug 2018, 14:15
#11
06 Aug 2018, 14:15#11

Well, Macron is quite a bit younger than his wife and he was only 15 when they met, so there is room for gossip, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2018, 16:10
#12
06 Aug 2018, 16:10#12

The oaks are not getting it.

Per the Independent UK

France votes against setting minimum age of sexual consent amid backlash

President Macron accused of missing opportunity to protect minors

France has stopped short of setting a legal age of sexual consent following a heated debate in the National Assembly. 

While the lower house of parliament voted on a bill to toughen laws on the rape of children, lawmakers voted against setting at 15 the minimum age at which a minor cannot consent to a sexual relationship with an adult. 

As a result, there is still no law establishing a legal age of sexual consent in France.  (Are all the Peds enablers here understanding this!!!!)

The bill makes sex between an adult and a minor under 15 illegal but accepts the possibility that a minor is capable of consenting to sex.

In such cases, when the threshold for rape is not met, judges would classify the incident as "sexual assault" and offenders could face a prison sentence of up to 10 years.

However, if "the victim lacks the ability to consent" it would classified as rape and offenders would face up to 20 years in prison.

The text now has to be approved by the Senate before it can become law. 

Opposition parties criticised President Emmanuel Macron's La Republique En Marche party for missing the opportunity to place an age of consent into law. 

The government was recently warned by France's highest administrative court, the Council of State, that setting a firm legal age of consent could be seen as violating an adult's presumption of innocence and as a result it could have declared the new law unconstitutional. 

Children and women's rights groups nonetheless criticised the lack of legislation, pointing to the recent decision by French courts to refuse to prosecute two men for the rape of 11-year-old girls because authorities couldn't prove coercion ( Ou KKK is salivating at the prospect and is doubtless thinking of immigrating to France!!!)

Campaigners who demanded a firm age limit for sexual consent said the new law could encourage judges to classify sexual abuses as sexual assaults rather than rapes. 

Oppositions groups said the text would "send the wrong signal to society" and "satisfy neither campaign groups nor the judicial spheres," French newspaper Le Figaro reports. 

Writing in left-leaning newspaper Liberation, sociologist Irene Ther said the government should have lowered the proposed minimal age of consent from 15 to 13 and that the vote was "a missed opportunity".  (Then these lefty peds will try to get the age down to 11 then 9 and so on. You now what these lefty peds are like!)

Representing Mr Macron's La Republique En Marche, Dimitri Houbron, told Le Monde: "Maybe we are not going far enough, but this is progress and we want to make sure we have a text which is legally strong." 

The bill also introduces a new offence for "sexist abuse" in the public space which includes sexists behaviour, comments on a person's physique and wolf-whistling with offenders facing a €90 (£79) fine. 



BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2018, 16:11
#13
06 Aug 2018, 16:11#13


BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2018, 16:14
#14
06 Aug 2018, 16:14#14

Above picture:

Women demonstrate to call for a legislative change to set a minimum legal age for sexual consent in front of the Justice ministry in Paris a week after a jury acquitted a 30-year-old man who was accused of raping an 11-year-old girl ( LIONEL BONAVENTURE/AFP/Getty Images )

PLEASE ALL PERVERTED OAKS NO MORE SUPPORT FOR PEDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2018, 16:28
#15
06 Aug 2018, 16:28#15
Some facts for the Ped supporting oaks here to consider

 april 24, 2017, a 28-year-old-man met an 11-year-old girl in a park in Montmagny, just north of Paris, after which, he took her home where he had oral and vaginal sex with her. When it was over, the girl called her mother and described what had happened, and her mother called the police. “She thought … that she didn’t have the right to protest, that it wouldn’t make any difference,” the mother told Mediapart, a French investigative site which first reported on the allegations of the case. The accusations were of an adult raping a child—a crime that, in France, can lead to a 20-year prison sentence for the perpetrator when the victim is 15 or younger.

But it initially wasn’t charged that way. When the case first went to court in September, the man faced only charges of “sexual infraction,” a crime punishable with a maximum of five years in jail and a €75,000 fine. Under French law, a charge of rape requires “violence, coercion, threat, or surprise,” even if the victims are as young as the girl in the Montmagny case. When the case, initially postponed, went back to court in February, the man’s attorneys did not deny the sexual encounter but argued that the girl had been capable of consenting. She was 11 years and 10 months old, so nearly 12 years old,” defense lawyer Marc Goudarzian said. Sandrine Parise-Heideiger, his fellow defense lawyer, added: “We are not dealing with a sexual predator on a poor little faultless goose.” RREALLY YOU PERV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Such a defense flies in the face of legal and cultural consensus in most Western nations, and much of the world.  BUT NOT TO THE PERVS HERE!With children there is inevitably coercion,” Ernestine Ronai, co-president of the gender-based violence commission at the government’s High Council for Equality between Women and Men, told me. “It is indefensible that a girl of 11 could be considered consenting with a 28-year-old man. This is shocking,” she added. NOT TO THE PERVS HERE!!!!!

Indeed, the judge did ultimately order that rape charges be filed, in what Carine Durrieu-Diebolt, the attorney for the girl and her family, called a “victory for victims.” The case has been postponed to allow for a more thorough investigation into the allegations. But in the meantime, it has also provoked an unprecedented backlash that has resulted in France considering a change to a longstanding, anomalous feature of its laws: Up to now, there has been no legal age of consent for sex.

Under french law, “rape” is defined as “any act of sexual penetration, of whatever nature, committed on the person of another by violence, coercion, threat or surprise.” Yet unlike elsewhere, there is no presumption of coercion if a sexual minor is involved. Most other countries in Europe, including SpainBelgiumBritainSwitzerlandDenmark and Austria, have a legal age of consent. Most of the age minimums range between 14 and 16 years of age. Fixing a specific age of consent means that children and adolescents below that age cannot, regardless of circumstances, be considered consenting to sex; their very age renders them incapable. As a result, an adult in most European nations who has sex with someone under this age would be charged with rape, even if violent force is not used.

The medical rationale for age-of-consent laws is clear: Children are developmentally  unprepared to give informed consent, and it can be extremely difficult for them to say no to people in positions of authority, or those they trust. According to the World Health Organization (WHO)’s guidelines: “The sexual abuse of children is a unique phenomenon; the dynamics are often very different to that of adult sexual abuse and therefore abuse of this nature cannot be handled in the same way.” The WHO has found that adult perpetrators also rarely use physical force or violence on children, relying instead on their ability to “manipulate the child’s trust and hide the abuse. ” WHO’s formal definition of child sexual abuse is “the involvement of a child in sexual activity that he or she does not fully comprehend, is unable to give informed consent to, or for which the child is not developmentally prepared and cannot give consent, or that violates the laws or social taboos of society.” For these reasons, France’s lack of a clearly specified age of consent is an anomaly.

While French law does not include a fixed age of consent, it does recognize sexual minors. A sexual minor can still legally be considered able to give their consent—in this case, their perpetrator would be charged with sexual infraction, not rape. In the 19th century, the age at which children were considered sexual minors was 11; later, it was raised to 13, and since 1945, it has been 15. Meanwhile, the issue of consent—or the failure to establish a clear age of consent—festered. In 2005, spurred on by a case involving the sexual abuse of three children under the age of five, France’s highest court ruled that sexual “coercion is presumed to be present in cases involving children of a very young age,” and that lawmakers must establish an age at which it should be assumed that a child could not consent. Exactly what this age should be was left up to judges to decide. While a law was passed in February 2010 specifying that “moral coercion” could result from a “difference in age,” what that age actually should be was, again, left unclear. In 2015, France’s highest court reaffirmed that there is no set age of consent when it comes to sexual relations.

But in October 2016, the High Council for Equality between Women and Men published a report on sexual violence in France. The council found that 20.4 percent of women reported experiencing at least one form of sexual violence over their lifetimes. For 6.8 percent of them, the crime they suffered was rape, as French law defines it: “any act of sexual penetration, of any nature, committed by violence, coercion, threat, or surprise. ” For 9.1 percent, it was attempted rape. Among the victims, 59 percent suffered their rape or sexual assault before they turned 18. In its conclusion, the Council recommended establishing the still comparably low age of 13 as the age of consent. “We must start taking better care of victims,” Ronai told me in November. “We have to stop asking why: Why were you in the street alone? Why didn’t you scream? Why didn’t you leave?”

Muriel Salmona, a psychiatrist and president of the Traumatic Memory and Victimology Association, an advocacy group for victims, told me that a child’s inability to say no to a sexual predator is exactly why the law needs to protect them. “It’s a total lack of common sense,” she said. When children appear emotionally disengaged or numb in court, judges can assume they were not affected by their experience—in other words, that they consented, Salmona argued. The lack of a set age of consent leaves cases of sexual abuse involving children and minors up to the discretion of individual judges; furthermore, cases of rape are too often downgraded to sexual assault because such cases are considered “faster and easier” to move through the courts, Salmona said.

Salmona called the lack of a precise age of consent in France a “legal horror.” As she described in a 2015 paper, “Children are a prime target of sexual predators … They are vulnerable, helpless, dependent and under the authority of adults. It's easy to manipulate, threaten, and silence them. Because of their immaturity, it is much harder to identify what they have suffered and they are rarely seen as credible when they get to talk.”

Why has the french legal system seemed reluctant to set a specific age of consent?

One prominent explanation stems from the attitudes that followed May 1968, when student protests against capitalism, consumerism, and other values and institutions considered elitist and unjust, led to massive demonstrations, strikes, and civil unrest. The protests represented a cultural revolution that would leave a lasting imprint on France's very identity. Salmona said that after 1968, attitudes began to shift: Children were viewed as having the right to be considered sexual beings—in Salmona’s words: “pedophilia was considered a sexual orientation … It was all part of a vision of freedom.”

That a nation’s moral position on an issue as provocative and seemingly incontrovertible as a child’s sexuality could turn on a protest, even one as historic as May 1968, may seem unbelievable. But as Pierre Verdrager wrote in Forbidden Child: How Pedophilia Became Scandalous, defenders of pedophilia gained considerable leverage in the post-1968 sexual revolution, particularly among an elite circle of intellectuals. “In the 1970s and 1980s, the question of the relationship between adults and children and the issues of rights and the autonomy of minors were recurrent in the press (in France),” he wrote. “The identification of the potentially sexual nature of the relationship between adults and children was one of the ways of going against the bourgeois order.”

Similarly, following the protests, “a general atmosphere of sexual freedom and liberalization of lifestyles” took hold, one that bolstered “a movement in favor of pedophilia,” as Jean-Hugues Déchaux, a sociologist at the Max Weber Center in Lyon, wrote in a 2014 critique of Verdrager’s book in the French Review of Sociology. In those years, Déchaux wrote, pro-pedophilia activists even formed associations with names like the Pedophile Liberation Front, the Research Action Front for a Different Childhood, and the Research Group for a Different Childhood. Pedophiles also began publishing their own journals, with titles like Backside, Le Petit Gredin, or “The Little Rogue,” and P’tit Loup, or “The Little Wolf.” French intellectuals including Guy Hocquenghem, Gabriel Matzneff, and René Schérer became spokespeople for the movement. “[O]pponents of pedophilia were accused of being ‘reactionary’ and pedophiles were redefined not as guilty of sexual abuse but as victims, like homosexuals, of ‘retrograde’ legislation”—a reference to laws of the era that criminalized homosexuality and pedophilia.

There was widespread rejection of the movement—including vocal pushback from feminists, family therapists, and a handful of women in government.  Additionally, as Déchaux has argued, the open embrace of pedophilia by some elements of France’s intellectual elite in the 1970s and 1980s “says nothing about public opinion itself and even less about the reality of social and family practices.” While certain French media and intellectuals defended pedophilia during this period, the 1990s saw a dramatic shift, both in rhetoric and public consciousness, characterized in part by “new, sharp public attention to the issues of child sexual abuse and incest.” Pressure from groups concerned about the problem of family violence—feminists groups, in particular—also succeeded in drawing more political attention to these issues.

Indeed, pro-pedophilia activists faced a challenge: French people recognized that a sexual relationship between an adult and a child was, by definition, an unequal one. So, as Déchaux wrote, the nascent pro-pedophilia lobby attempted to “symmetricize” the relationship. In their writing, they characterized children as “clear-thinking, endowed with volition and discernment.” From this, it followed, they deserved the same rights as adults. “The notion of child protection was [deemed] patriarchal and denounced as a danger to the child’s personal integrity,” Déchaux wrote.

After May 1968, French intellectuals would challenge the state’s authority to protect minors from sexual abuse. In one prominent example, on January 26, 1977, Le Monde, a French newspaper, published a petition signed by the era’s most prominent intellectuals—including Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir, Gilles Deleuze, Roland Barthes, Philippe Sollers, André Glucksmann and Louis Aragon—in defense of three men on trial for engaging in sexual acts with minors. “French law recognizes in 13- and 14-year-olds a capacity for discernment that it can judge and punish,” the petition stated, “But it rejects such a capacity when the child's emotional and sexual life is concerned.” Furthermore, the signatories argued, children and adolescents have the right to a sexual life: “If a 13-year-old girl has the right to take the pill, what is it for?” It’s unclear what impact, if any, the petition had. The defendants were sentenced to five years in prison, but did not serve their full sentences.

In 1979, Liberation published another petition, this time in support of Gérard R., a man on trial for having sex with girls between the ages of six and 12. It was signed by 63 people, many of them well-known intellectuals like Christiane Rochefort and Pascal Bruckner. It argued that the girls in question were “happy” with the situation. “The love of children is also the love of their bodies,” they wrote. “Desire and sexual games have their place in the relationship between children and adults. This is what Gérard R. thought and experienced with [the] girls … whose fulfillment proved to everyone, including their parents, the happiness they found with him.”

What the endorsements from prominent French intellectuals suggested was that young children possessed a right to govern their own sexuality. Under this interpretation of liberté, young children were empowered to find happiness in sexual relationships; their ability to consent was a foregone conclusion. Any effort to suggest otherwise would be a condescension, a disrespect to them as fully realized human beings. In a radio interview in 1978, Michel Foucault said of sex with minors that assuming “that a child is incapable of explaining what happened and was incapable of giving his consent are two abuses that are intolerable, quite unacceptable.”

“People have a hard time admitting they were colonized by the discourse of pedocriminals,” Salmona told me. France in the 1970s and 1980s, she said, was an “atrocious” era for children, an active time for a very unapologetic “pedocriminal lobby.”

Yet it’s hard to know exactly how widespread the so-called pedocriminal lobby’s influence reached. On the one hand, as sociologist and criminologist Patrice Corriveau wrote in 2011, the number of sexual abuse cases involving children in France had been on the rise since 1972. By 1982, he found, sexual offenses against minors had increased by nearly 22 percent—meaning, it seemed as though the stigma against child sex abuse was encouraging victims to come forward. At the same time, while the number of reported cases was on the rise, convictions for homosexual acts with minors were decreasing. As Corriveau explained: “In France … sexual behaviors, homoerotic or not, dropped in importance on the level of judicial intervention as the sexual revolution took hold. In fact, morals offense represented only 0.54 percent of overall criminality in France in 1982.”

It’s also clear that, in the decades since publishing their pro-pedophilia pieces, Le Monde and Liberation have sought to correct their past wrongs. In an article from 2001 in Liberation, journalist Sorj Chalandon described the post-1968 world in France as one gigantic social experiment, including when it came to pedophilia: “The moral order. That's the enemy. And Liberation at this time is nothing but an echo of the common vertigo,” Chalandon wrote. He characterized the mood of the time as one of challenging “‘any form of authority.’ It's more than a period, it's a laboratory.”

But if public opinion in France has evolved in recent decades, the country’s legal institutions have been slow to catch up. The legal status quo leaves too much up to the subjectivity of judges, Durrieu-Diebolt said. “There are some [professionals] who have very good instincts from experience or simply their humanity. There are others who have had training but don’t have the humanity to go with it.”

While the montmagny case and another, similar one involving a 30-year-old man who was  acquitted of raping an 11-year-old girl last fall after the prosecution failed to prove the encounter was not consensual may have done much to raise awareness, another problem persists: In France and elsewhere, a certain privilege is given to perpetrators in positions of power, particularly intellectuals and artists. Roman Polanski found a safe havenin France after fleeing rape charges in the United States in 1978, and has received support from prominent figures like former cultural minster Frédéric Mitterrand, who has blamed efforts to hold him accountable on American hysteria.

The recent cases in France involving children, as well as the privilege enjoyed by figures like Polanski, represent what Secretary of State for Gender Equality Marlène Schiappa called the country’s rape culture. “It’s not only in France, but it’s everything that contributes to minimalize, excuse, or relativize rapes and sexual assault, which leads to a certain tolerance of these crimes in society,” she told me in her office last fall.

In France, Mediapart’s investigation of the Montmagny case, published in late September, was met with horror. According to Durrieu-Diebolt, the story’s impact came from its thoroughness: In addition to detailed reporting on the case, it included a clear legal analysis of the French legal system’s glaring shortcomings. The piece, like Durrieu-Diebolt's own published work on the subject, argued that France was an exception, a place where the lack of an age threshold under which an adolescent or child cannot be considered consenting has led to tragic consequences. “France is late. Most European legislation has adopted an [irrefutable] presumption of lack of consent of the minor victim of sexual acts, with an age threshold, generally between 12 and 14 years,” Durrieu-Diebolt said in an online legal review. “Should we not now set an age threshold below which our society, like other European countries, would consider that a child does not freely consent to sexual intercourse with an adult?” she wrote.

According to Salmona, the case also provoked a national “movement of indignation” because it coincided with the reverberations in France surrounding the story of Harvey Weinstein’s serial sexual abuses. “This is a moment of raised awareness,” Schiappa agreed. “But we have to make sure it’s followed by concrete changes.”

Schiappa has begun pushing for those concrete changes, including proposed legislation that would set the age of consent at 15, to match France’s law about sexual minors; an extension of the time limit for prosecution of sexual crimes from 20 to 30 years; and fines for perpetrators of street harassment. She will present her wider bill against gender-based and sexual violence in the Council of Ministers on March 21. “The large majority of people are favorable to these changes,” she told me.

For her part, Durrieu-Diebolt has unreservedly endorsed an age of consent while defending the presumption of innocence—she does not see a conflict between the two. “We have to find an equilibrium between considering the victim and maintaining a presumption of innocence,” she said. “We have to respect both parts—we can’t go to either extreme.”

“What it comes down to is this,” Schiappa said. “Do we think rape is serious or is it tolerable depending on circumstances?

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2018, 16:28
#16
06 Aug 2018, 16:28#16
Some facts for the Ped supporting oaks here to consider

 april 24, 2017, a 28-year-old-man met an 11-year-old girl in a park in Montmagny, just north of Paris, after which, he took her home where he had oral and vaginal sex with her. When it was over, the girl called her mother and described what had happened, and her mother called the police. “She thought … that she didn’t have the right to protest, that it wouldn’t make any difference,” the mother told Mediapart, a French investigative site which first reported on the allegations of the case. The accusations were of an adult raping a child—a crime that, in France, can lead to a 20-year prison sentence for the perpetrator when the victim is 15 or younger.

But it initially wasn’t charged that way. When the case first went to court in September, the man faced only charges of “sexual infraction,” a crime punishable with a maximum of five years in jail and a €75,000 fine. Under French law, a charge of rape requires “violence, coercion, threat, or surprise,” even if the victims are as young as the girl in the Montmagny case. When the case, initially postponed, went back to court in February, the man’s attorneys did not deny the sexual encounter but argued that the girl had been capable of consenting. She was 11 years and 10 months old, so nearly 12 years old,” defense lawyer Marc Goudarzian said. Sandrine Parise-Heideiger, his fellow defense lawyer, added: “We are not dealing with a sexual predator on a poor little faultless goose.” RREALLY YOU PERV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Such a defense flies in the face of legal and cultural consensus in most Western nations, and much of the world.  BUT NOT TO THE PERVS HERE!With children there is inevitably coercion,” Ernestine Ronai, co-president of the gender-based violence commission at the government’s High Council for Equality between Women and Men, told me. “It is indefensible that a girl of 11 could be considered consenting with a 28-year-old man. This is shocking,” she added. NOT TO THE PERVS HERE!!!!!

Indeed, the judge did ultimately order that rape charges be filed, in what Carine Durrieu-Diebolt, the attorney for the girl and her family, called a “victory for victims.” The case has been postponed to allow for a more thorough investigation into the allegations. But in the meantime, it has also provoked an unprecedented backlash that has resulted in France considering a change to a longstanding, anomalous feature of its laws: Up to now, there has been no legal age of consent for sex.

Under french law, “rape” is defined as “any act of sexual penetration, of whatever nature, committed on the person of another by violence, coercion, threat or surprise.” Yet unlike elsewhere, there is no presumption of coercion if a sexual minor is involved. Most other countries in Europe, including SpainBelgiumBritainSwitzerlandDenmark and Austria, have a legal age of consent. Most of the age minimums range between 14 and 16 years of age. Fixing a specific age of consent means that children and adolescents below that age cannot, regardless of circumstances, be considered consenting to sex; their very age renders them incapable. As a result, an adult in most European nations who has sex with someone under this age would be charged with rape, even if violent force is not used.

The medical rationale for age-of-consent laws is clear: Children are developmentally  unprepared to give informed consent, and it can be extremely difficult for them to say no to people in positions of authority, or those they trust. According to the World Health Organization (WHO)’s guidelines: “The sexual abuse of children is a unique phenomenon; the dynamics are often very different to that of adult sexual abuse and therefore abuse of this nature cannot be handled in the same way.” The WHO has found that adult perpetrators also rarely use physical force or violence on children, relying instead on their ability to “manipulate the child’s trust and hide the abuse. ” WHO’s formal definition of child sexual abuse is “the involvement of a child in sexual activity that he or she does not fully comprehend, is unable to give informed consent to, or for which the child is not developmentally prepared and cannot give consent, or that violates the laws or social taboos of society.” For these reasons, France’s lack of a clearly specified age of consent is an anomaly.

While French law does not include a fixed age of consent, it does recognize sexual minors. A sexual minor can still legally be considered able to give their consent—in this case, their perpetrator would be charged with sexual infraction, not rape. In the 19th century, the age at which children were considered sexual minors was 11; later, it was raised to 13, and since 1945, it has been 15. Meanwhile, the issue of consent—or the failure to establish a clear age of consent—festered. In 2005, spurred on by a case involving the sexual abuse of three children under the age of five, France’s highest court ruled that sexual “coercion is presumed to be present in cases involving children of a very young age,” and that lawmakers must establish an age at which it should be assumed that a child could not consent. Exactly what this age should be was left up to judges to decide. While a law was passed in February 2010 specifying that “moral coercion” could result from a “difference in age,” what that age actually should be was, again, left unclear. In 2015, France’s highest court reaffirmed that there is no set age of consent when it comes to sexual relations.

But in October 2016, the High Council for Equality between Women and Men published a report on sexual violence in France. The council found that 20.4 percent of women reported experiencing at least one form of sexual violence over their lifetimes. For 6.8 percent of them, the crime they suffered was rape, as French law defines it: “any act of sexual penetration, of any nature, committed by violence, coercion, threat, or surprise. ” For 9.1 percent, it was attempted rape. Among the victims, 59 percent suffered their rape or sexual assault before they turned 18. In its conclusion, the Council recommended establishing the still comparably low age of 13 as the age of consent. “We must start taking better care of victims,” Ronai told me in November. “We have to stop asking why: Why were you in the street alone? Why didn’t you scream? Why didn’t you leave?”

Muriel Salmona, a psychiatrist and president of the Traumatic Memory and Victimology Association, an advocacy group for victims, told me that a child’s inability to say no to a sexual predator is exactly why the law needs to protect them. “It’s a total lack of common sense,” she said. When children appear emotionally disengaged or numb in court, judges can assume they were not affected by their experience—in other words, that they consented, Salmona argued. The lack of a set age of consent leaves cases of sexual abuse involving children and minors up to the discretion of individual judges; furthermore, cases of rape are too often downgraded to sexual assault because such cases are considered “faster and easier” to move through the courts, Salmona said.

Salmona called the lack of a precise age of consent in France a “legal horror.” As she described in a 2015 paper, “Children are a prime target of sexual predators … They are vulnerable, helpless, dependent and under the authority of adults. It's easy to manipulate, threaten, and silence them. Because of their immaturity, it is much harder to identify what they have suffered and they are rarely seen as credible when they get to talk.”

Why has the french legal system seemed reluctant to set a specific age of consent?

One prominent explanation stems from the attitudes that followed May 1968, when student protests against capitalism, consumerism, and other values and institutions considered elitist and unjust, led to massive demonstrations, strikes, and civil unrest. The protests represented a cultural revolution that would leave a lasting imprint on France's very identity. Salmona said that after 1968, attitudes began to shift: Children were viewed as having the right to be considered sexual beings—in Salmona’s words: “pedophilia was considered a sexual orientation … It was all part of a vision of freedom.”

That a nation’s moral position on an issue as provocative and seemingly incontrovertible as a child’s sexuality could turn on a protest, even one as historic as May 1968, may seem unbelievable. But as Pierre Verdrager wrote in Forbidden Child: How Pedophilia Became Scandalous, defenders of pedophilia gained considerable leverage in the post-1968 sexual revolution, particularly among an elite circle of intellectuals. “In the 1970s and 1980s, the question of the relationship between adults and children and the issues of rights and the autonomy of minors were recurrent in the press (in France),” he wrote. “The identification of the potentially sexual nature of the relationship between adults and children was one of the ways of going against the bourgeois order.”

Similarly, following the protests, “a general atmosphere of sexual freedom and liberalization of lifestyles” took hold, one that bolstered “a movement in favor of pedophilia,” as Jean-Hugues Déchaux, a sociologist at the Max Weber Center in Lyon, wrote in a 2014 critique of Verdrager’s book in the French Review of Sociology. In those years, Déchaux wrote, pro-pedophilia activists even formed associations with names like the Pedophile Liberation Front, the Research Action Front for a Different Childhood, and the Research Group for a Different Childhood. Pedophiles also began publishing their own journals, with titles like Backside, Le Petit Gredin, or “The Little Rogue,” and P’tit Loup, or “The Little Wolf.” French intellectuals including Guy Hocquenghem, Gabriel Matzneff, and René Schérer became spokespeople for the movement. “[O]pponents of pedophilia were accused of being ‘reactionary’ and pedophiles were redefined not as guilty of sexual abuse but as victims, like homosexuals, of ‘retrograde’ legislation”—a reference to laws of the era that criminalized homosexuality and pedophilia.

There was widespread rejection of the movement—including vocal pushback from feminists, family therapists, and a handful of women in government.  Additionally, as Déchaux has argued, the open embrace of pedophilia by some elements of France’s intellectual elite in the 1970s and 1980s “says nothing about public opinion itself and even less about the reality of social and family practices.” While certain French media and intellectuals defended pedophilia during this period, the 1990s saw a dramatic shift, both in rhetoric and public consciousness, characterized in part by “new, sharp public attention to the issues of child sexual abuse and incest.” Pressure from groups concerned about the problem of family violence—feminists groups, in particular—also succeeded in drawing more political attention to these issues.

Indeed, pro-pedophilia activists faced a challenge: French people recognized that a sexual relationship between an adult and a child was, by definition, an unequal one. So, as Déchaux wrote, the nascent pro-pedophilia lobby attempted to “symmetricize” the relationship. In their writing, they characterized children as “clear-thinking, endowed with volition and discernment.” From this, it followed, they deserved the same rights as adults. “The notion of child protection was [deemed] patriarchal and denounced as a danger to the child’s personal integrity,” Déchaux wrote.

After May 1968, French intellectuals would challenge the state’s authority to protect minors from sexual abuse. In one prominent example, on January 26, 1977, Le Monde, a French newspaper, published a petition signed by the era’s most prominent intellectuals—including Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir, Gilles Deleuze, Roland Barthes, Philippe Sollers, André Glucksmann and Louis Aragon—in defense of three men on trial for engaging in sexual acts with minors. “French law recognizes in 13- and 14-year-olds a capacity for discernment that it can judge and punish,” the petition stated, “But it rejects such a capacity when the child's emotional and sexual life is concerned.” Furthermore, the signatories argued, children and adolescents have the right to a sexual life: “If a 13-year-old girl has the right to take the pill, what is it for?” It’s unclear what impact, if any, the petition had. The defendants were sentenced to five years in prison, but did not serve their full sentences.

In 1979, Liberation published another petition, this time in support of Gérard R., a man on trial for having sex with girls between the ages of six and 12. It was signed by 63 people, many of them well-known intellectuals like Christiane Rochefort and Pascal Bruckner. It argued that the girls in question were “happy” with the situation. “The love of children is also the love of their bodies,” they wrote. “Desire and sexual games have their place in the relationship between children and adults. This is what Gérard R. thought and experienced with [the] girls … whose fulfillment proved to everyone, including their parents, the happiness they found with him.”

What the endorsements from prominent French intellectuals suggested was that young children possessed a right to govern their own sexuality. Under this interpretation of liberté, young children were empowered to find happiness in sexual relationships; their ability to consent was a foregone conclusion. Any effort to suggest otherwise would be a condescension, a disrespect to them as fully realized human beings. In a radio interview in 1978, Michel Foucault said of sex with minors that assuming “that a child is incapable of explaining what happened and was incapable of giving his consent are two abuses that are intolerable, quite unacceptable.”

“People have a hard time admitting they were colonized by the discourse of pedocriminals,” Salmona told me. France in the 1970s and 1980s, she said, was an “atrocious” era for children, an active time for a very unapologetic “pedocriminal lobby.”

Yet it’s hard to know exactly how widespread the so-called pedocriminal lobby’s influence reached. On the one hand, as sociologist and criminologist Patrice Corriveau wrote in 2011, the number of sexual abuse cases involving children in France had been on the rise since 1972. By 1982, he found, sexual offenses against minors had increased by nearly 22 percent—meaning, it seemed as though the stigma against child sex abuse was encouraging victims to come forward. At the same time, while the number of reported cases was on the rise, convictions for homosexual acts with minors were decreasing. As Corriveau explained: “In France … sexual behaviors, homoerotic or not, dropped in importance on the level of judicial intervention as the sexual revolution took hold. In fact, morals offense represented only 0.54 percent of overall criminality in France in 1982.”

It’s also clear that, in the decades since publishing their pro-pedophilia pieces, Le Monde and Liberation have sought to correct their past wrongs. In an article from 2001 in Liberation, journalist Sorj Chalandon described the post-1968 world in France as one gigantic social experiment, including when it came to pedophilia: “The moral order. That's the enemy. And Liberation at this time is nothing but an echo of the common vertigo,” Chalandon wrote. He characterized the mood of the time as one of challenging “‘any form of authority.’ It's more than a period, it's a laboratory.”

But if public opinion in France has evolved in recent decades, the country’s legal institutions have been slow to catch up. The legal status quo leaves too much up to the subjectivity of judges, Durrieu-Diebolt said. “There are some [professionals] who have very good instincts from experience or simply their humanity. There are others who have had training but don’t have the humanity to go with it.”

While the montmagny case and another, similar one involving a 30-year-old man who was  acquitted of raping an 11-year-old girl last fall after the prosecution failed to prove the encounter was not consensual may have done much to raise awareness, another problem persists: In France and elsewhere, a certain privilege is given to perpetrators in positions of power, particularly intellectuals and artists. Roman Polanski found a safe havenin France after fleeing rape charges in the United States in 1978, and has received support from prominent figures like former cultural minster Frédéric Mitterrand, who has blamed efforts to hold him accountable on American hysteria.

The recent cases in France involving children, as well as the privilege enjoyed by figures like Polanski, represent what Secretary of State for Gender Equality Marlène Schiappa called the country’s rape culture. “It’s not only in France, but it’s everything that contributes to minimalize, excuse, or relativize rapes and sexual assault, which leads to a certain tolerance of these crimes in society,” she told me in her office last fall.

In France, Mediapart’s investigation of the Montmagny case, published in late September, was met with horror. According to Durrieu-Diebolt, the story’s impact came from its thoroughness: In addition to detailed reporting on the case, it included a clear legal analysis of the French legal system’s glaring shortcomings. The piece, like Durrieu-Diebolt's own published work on the subject, argued that France was an exception, a place where the lack of an age threshold under which an adolescent or child cannot be considered consenting has led to tragic consequences. “France is late. Most European legislation has adopted an [irrefutable] presumption of lack of consent of the minor victim of sexual acts, with an age threshold, generally between 12 and 14 years,” Durrieu-Diebolt said in an online legal review. “Should we not now set an age threshold below which our society, like other European countries, would consider that a child does not freely consent to sexual intercourse with an adult?” she wrote.

According to Salmona, the case also provoked a national “movement of indignation” because it coincided with the reverberations in France surrounding the story of Harvey Weinstein’s serial sexual abuses. “This is a moment of raised awareness,” Schiappa agreed. “But we have to make sure it’s followed by concrete changes.”

Schiappa has begun pushing for those concrete changes, including proposed legislation that would set the age of consent at 15, to match France’s law about sexual minors; an extension of the time limit for prosecution of sexual crimes from 20 to 30 years; and fines for perpetrators of street harassment. She will present her wider bill against gender-based and sexual violence in the Council of Ministers on March 21. “The large majority of people are favorable to these changes,” she told me.

For her part, Durrieu-Diebolt has unreservedly endorsed an age of consent while defending the presumption of innocence—she does not see a conflict between the two. “We have to find an equilibrium between considering the victim and maintaining a presumption of innocence,” she said. “We have to respect both parts—we can’t go to either extreme.”

“What it comes down to is this,” Schiappa said. “Do we think rape is serious or is it tolerable depending on circumstances?

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2018, 16:30
#17
06 Aug 2018, 16:30#17

Crash go all the Ped supporters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Believe me me pedophilia is on the rise. Time to ri se up and speak out against it as strongly as possible and give beat down to all ped lovers!

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Aug 2018, 17:39
#18
06 Aug 2018, 17:39#18

The elephant in this room :"...Justice ministry in Paris a week after a jury acquitted a 30-year-old man who was accused of raping an 11-year-old girl"

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Aug 2018, 17:41
#19
06 Aug 2018, 17:41#19

France don't have to lower the age of consent, the current laws are ignored.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Aug 2018, 17:43
#20
06 Aug 2018, 17:43#20

PS Beenz....Wall of text bro, I was lucky to spot that bit . 

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
06 Aug 2018, 17:46
#21
06 Aug 2018, 17:46#21

Kids, this is what happens to your brain when you spend all day reading and absorbing media frenzies. Sometime or another it just checks out.

— END OF THREAD —

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