I'm not sure how

ja, ja, I know it was bad...sh!t happens...rednecks can fuck up too...they tend to burn down less things though...cause less damage to property...generally speaking...

"Again this attitude can simply be applied in reserve and thrown back at the other side. Does it actually get us anywhere. Nope."

Only if you genuinely believe that you can legitimately compare what Biden and Harris have done to the US, to what Trump and Pence did ....

Only if you genuinely believe that you can legitimately compare what Biden and Harris have done to the US, to what Trump and Pence did ....

Yup I can.

So just to be clear.... you are saying that individually and independently..... you believe that Biden has done a better job than Trump as president..... and that Harris has done a better job as VP than Pence?

We will agree to disagree

"I don't think the role of VP matters all that much and they get very little news coverage"

It matters quite a lot when a VP like Harris portrays the White House and the presidency as an absolute joke on national TV... on far too many occasions to mention here.

It matters quite a lot when a VP like Harris portrays the White House and the presidency as an absolute joke on national TV... on far too many occasions to mention here.

"Compared to that, Biden's gaffs and they are legion at this point pale in comparison"

Not even close

All it shows the rest of the world is that the current USA is weak, being run by a mentally handicapped criminal who will do anything with the rest of his family, to make an illegal dollar.

Trump is no saint at all, but until something does actually stick, for him or any of his children....from the hundreds of charges that these idiots have thrown against him, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

As for Biden.... well if you still believe, after all this new information coming out from the Hunter investigation, that Biden is still in the clear, that will be shaken up very soon I hope.

As for Harris..... she is a monumental embarrassment to the entire establishment......on far too many media stints Harris was made to look like a complete and utter idiot, by very junior journalists ...... because she didn't even have the slightest iota of what it took to hold and keep that position.

Not even close

Your right that's not even close, just not the way you think.

All it shows the rest of the world is that the current USA is weak, being run by a mentally handicapped criminal who will do anything with the rest of his family, to make an illegal dollar.

Trump is no saint at all, but until something does actually stick, for him or any of his children....from the hundreds of charges that these idiots have thrown against him, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

As for Biden.... well if you still believe, after all this new information coming out from the Hunter investigation, that Biden is still in the clear, that will be shaken up very soon I hope.

Emm, not noticing a bit of a double standard here are you?.

So your saying until some of the charges stick against Trump you're going give him the benefit of the doubt, but you have already judged Biden and his son to be guilty. Is the Hunter Biden investigation complete yet?

"Emm, not noticing a bit of a double standard here are you?."

Nope ....nada ...

Is the Hunter Biden investigation complete yet?

Nope....very far from complete.... however the evidence that has already come to light has been overwhelming against both Hunter and his father... and there is far more to come.

Nobody has yet seen anything that can hold Trump or any of his kids liable....and until that day comes, yes, I will 100% give him and them... the benefit of the doubt..... and if Trump or any of his kids are found guilty of something, I will gladly support their prosecution to the full extent of the law.

"One of the most farcical delusions Trump supporters have is that Trump made the US respected again"

Funny then... that even now, most Americans still trust Donald Trump with the handling of the economy than Joe Biden....so that would only mean that the majority of Americans don' t respect Biden enough to do a the job...

Nope ....nada ...

Look harder.

Nope....very far from complete.... however the evidence that has already come to light has been overwhelming against both Hunter and his father... and there is far more to come.

"Trump supporters on the other hand have this exaggerated perception of how the economy performed"

Whether you believe it is just a "perception" of the people or not .... you cannot argue the fact that most Americans feel this way right now about Trump.... and they don't agree with you .... they lived and experienced it, you didn't.... a nd these millions of people also had a far better rate of disposable income under Trump than they have ever had under Biden, irrespective of what and why......so I can fully understand why millions and millions of people still feel this way about Trump... and have this "perception" of him.

That Iraq exit was not just abysmal ... it was downright disgraceful 

Whether you believe it is just a "perception" of the people or not .... you cannot argue the fact that most Americans feel this way right now about Trump.... and they don't agree with you .... they lived and experienced it, you didn't.... and these millions of people also had a far better rate of disposable income under Trump than they have ever had under Biden, irrespective of what and why......so I can fully understand why millions and millions of people still feel this way about Trump... and have this "perception" of him.

I'm not arguing the fact that most Americans feel at the moment towards Trump or Biden, they have indeed lived it and I understand why. But the what and why is pretty damn important.

That Iraq exit was not just abysmal ... it was downright disgraceful

Emm Afghanistan?

It was abysmal. It was also Trumps plan, despite him being told it completely undermined the Afghan government and was a de-facto surrender to the Taliban and he supported it through numerous breaches by the Taliban both when he was still in office and until just a few weeks before the eventual Afghan collapse. Events would prove out that deal with fundamentally a bad deal that the Taliban had no intention of honoring.

Biden was in charge at the time. He didn't have to follow through on the deal because the Taliban where clearly in breach and the buck ultimately stopped with him. He also gave his western allies a reminder when he ignored their plea's to stop the withdrawal that irrespective of who is in the White House it will always be America first.

Ultimately both Trump and Biden and the American people wanted out of Afghanistan and both Presidents expected the Taliban would come back to power to some extent  probably in some form of power sharing agreement, neither expected the complete collapse of the Afghanistan state in such a short period of time. What I've not yet seen from critics of Biden is say he had decided to stop the withdrawal and use force to prevent the Afghan collapse, what was the plan, clearly the Afghan state was no in way shape or form capable of surviving on its own. Was America going just stay there for however long that was going take or do you really think simply dropping a few bombs would of got the Taliban to give up after 20 years of fighting and it would of got them to honor the deal. 

The problem wasn't the plan, but the execution...and the withdrawal from Iraq under Bush or/and Obama/Biden was just as chaotic and lead to the ISIS disaster 2007 to 2011) combined with the unrest in Syria and Libya...fact is, wars and conflict were reduced under Trump....first US president in decades not to start a new serious armed conflict...and shortly after he left, conflict is escalating all over the world...

"They where coming regardless of who was President."

That's your opinion,  you can't know it for sure.

"but he has recently authorized military action in the Red Sea. Trump also did authorize military action against Iran."

Huge difference in what Trump did in Iran and what's happening in Yemen. 

Facebook fact check lol!

"The Taliban never had any intention of honoring the deal and broke it within days and kept doing so up till the withdrawal. It was fundamentally a bad plan."

Nonsense, there is no way of knowing what they would have done or reacted with someone else in the Whitehouse...the actual sh!t started after the pathetic withdrawl...even worse than the Iraq withdrawl, the same patern is clear, I can't help you refuse to see it.

... not to mention thr cash both the Obama and Biden presidensies threw to Iran.

Anger compare what China, Russia and Iran did during Obama and Biden’s presidencies…..to what they did during Trump’s and you have an answer to your ‘crap’ question.

The thing that gets me about you far left loons is you are just one eyed as the likes of HasBeen but pretend you are rational. You just can’t stand Trump and the moment something is said about him, even in a neutral vane, your malfunction kicks in.

"They where coming regardless of who was President."

That's your opinion,  you can't know it for sure.

Like the way Trump fans believed Trump is respected or feared by the worlds autocrats without have a shred of evidence to back it up.

Stav trying being honest because you are so left of left it is amazing that you can still use the keyboard.

Man get real.

Anger compare what China, Russia and Iran did during Obama and Biden’s presidencies…..to what they did during Trump’s and you have an answer to your ‘crap’ question.

We saw the US-China relation going to crap during the Trump term and they have largely remained pretty poor but the diplomatic language has somewhat improved recently. Most if not all the trade restrictions put in place on China under the Trump administration remained under Biden. The world laughed as America collectively lost its shit over the Chinese spy balloon. Republican made out as if Biden was personally supposed to be monitoring America air space on radar.

The only armed conflict China has been involved with was with India over a long running historical border despite in 2020-2021 during the Biden administration.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/17/politics/trump-soft-on-russia/index.html

But of course I guess the Trumpites are going tell that's either all lies or its how Trump got Putin to fear him by being his pal. Russia did get involved in a conflict during Trumps term when it got involved with the civil war in the Central African Republic.

Obviously we had the much larger invasion of Ukraine that happened during Biden's term. General consensus over here is Biden actually hasn't done that bad managing the conflict and is far the preferable choice to Trump who Europe want no where near it.  Trump meanwhile has repeatedly called for a negotiated settlement in another sign that he's like so "tough" when it comes to Russia and his MAGA allies have blocked aid to Ukraine. Ohhh I beat Putin's quaking in his boots.

As for Iran it actually got involved in 3 conflicts during Trumps term, although technically speaking one of them was on the same side as America was on.

The thing that gets me about you far left loons is you are just one eyed as the likes of HasBeen but pretend you are rational. You just can’t stand Trump and the moment something is said about him, even in a neutral vane, your malfunction kicks in.

Like many right wing people living in the state's you have no concept of what normal politics even looks like at this point so of course anyone who disagree is a looney left. You didn't even have a left wing in America this point. 

But I'm more than capable of giving Trump credit for things he got right.

Absolutely mental!

What happened under Trump was the media and deep state being mobilised against the president because he wasn't their guy.

Biden is so beholden to bureaucrats that he doesn't take a shit without their say so.

The guy is a complete and utter swamp rat.

Absolutely mental!

Stav trying being honest because you are so left of left it is amazing that you can still use the keyboard.

You know sometimes it’s pretty sickening to read this European holier than thou lecturing. The fact is China, Russia and Iran did very little in Trump’s term and a whole lot in Biden and Obama’s. You can’t even acknowledge that because you are so twisted with dislike for the boorish Trump.

How conveniently you forget that twice in the 20th century young men from places you would look down on, came and saved Europe from itself. Died for countries they would never have visited but for your wars.

The notion that men from the MAGA men from Kansas aren’t worth considering is just as bad as saying that immigrants from South America are criminals. People are not that different the world over, but the systems they function in are.  

If it wasn’t for America Europe would have been dominated by Germany, and after the war dominated by Russia….a little respect for the blood that was shed to ensure your comfortable lives would be nice.

I don’t particularly care for Trump’s style and I think he is too old and too encumbered to be effective in another term. But I’d take Trump over a 100 stuffed shirt, never did anything,  Brussels bureaucrats.

Editor’s Note: This story originally published on November 17, 2019. It has been updated to include 12 new instances in which President Trump has gone easy on Russia. CNN  — 

President Donald Trump has an Achilles’ heel when it comes to Russia.

Over the years, he’s made no secret that he has a soft spot for the country and its authoritarian leader, President Vladimir Putin. Trump has proved that he is willing to reject widely held US foreign policy views and align himself with the Kremlin on everything from Russian interference in US elections to the war in Syria.

Most recently, Trump has denied the veracity of US intelligence reports accusing Russia of paying bounties to Taliban fighters to kill US troops in Afghanistan. Pressed on the topic during an interview with Axios that was released on Wednesday, Trump said he did not raise the issue during a recent phone call with Putin, and continued to suggest that the reports are “fake news.”

During the 2016 campaign, Trump’s ties to Russians were so concerning that the FBI believed there was good reason to investigate potential collusion between his 2016 campaign and the Kremlin. Counterintelligence investigators also examined whether Trump himself was somehow a Russian asset. (Special counsel Robert Mueller did not establish a criminal conspiracy of collusion.)

In Trump’s eyes, these allegations are proof of a conspiracy against him by Democratic lawmakers and other “deep state” enemies within the US government. He has bombastically declared, “There’s never been a president as tough on Russia as I have been” – a dubious claim that he repeated during the Russian bounties scandal.

But Trump’s narrative is simply false, based on his own actions over the last few years. Here’s a breakdown of 37 occasions when Trump was soft on Russia or gave Putin a boost.

Trump has repeatedly praised Putin

While he was a private citizen, during his 2016 campaign and throughout his presidency, Trump has showered Putin with praise. He said Putin was “so nice,” he called Putin a “strong leader” and said Putin has done “a really great job outsmarting our country.” Trump also claimed he’d “get along very well” with Putin. Few, if any, Western leaders have echoed these comments.

Trump hired Manafort to run his campaign

Trump raised eyebrows in spring 2016 when he hired GOP operative Paul Manafort to run his presidential campaign. Manafort spent a decade working for pro-Russian politicians and parties in Ukraine and cultivated close relationships with Putin-friendly oligarchs. Manafort was sentenced in 2019 to 7.5 years prison for, among other things, evading taxes on the $60 million he had made in Ukraine. (He was released to house arrest in May 2020 amid coronavirus concerns.)

Trump suggested Russia can keep Crimea

Trump said Putin did “an amazing job of taking the mantle” when Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. During the 2016 presidential campaign, Trump broke with US policy and suggested he was OK if Russia kept the Ukrainian territory. He repeated a Kremlin talking point, saying, “The people of Crimea, from what I’ve heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were.”

Trump aides softened GOP platform on Ukraine

Ahead of the 2016 Republican National Convention, Trump campaign aides blocked language from the party platform that called for the US government to send lethal weapons to Ukraine for its war against Russian proxies. Mueller investigated this for potential collusion but determined the change was not made “at the behest” of Russia. (The Trump administration ultimately gave lethal arms and anti-tank weapons to the Ukrainian military.)

Trump made light of Russian hacking

Throughout the 2016 campaign, Trump cast doubt on the US government assessment that Russia hacked the Democratic National Committee and Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman. At a news conference in July 2016, he even asked Russia to hack more, saying, “Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,”

Trump capitalized on Russian meddling to win

Instead of condemning Russia for hacking and leaking Democratic emails, Trump eagerly capitalized on the Kremlin’s meddling, and used the emails to attack Clinton on a near-daily basis in the final stretch of the campaign. The Mueller report said Trump’s campaign “expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts” and that top officials believed they had inside information about WikiLeaks, so they planned a strategy around the expected release of hacked emails.

Trump denied that Russia interfered in 2016

The Office of the Director of National Intelligence, the FBI, the CIA, the National Security Agency, the Department of Homeland Security, the Justice Department and the Senate Intelligence Committee all confirmed that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Trump. But Trump has repeatedly rejected this view, and publicly sided with Putin at the Helsinki summit in 2018, saying he accepted Putin’s denials.

Trump transition undermined Russian sanctions

After the 2016 election, the Trump transition team asked Russia not to retaliate too strongly against new US sanctions imposed by then-President Barack Obama. The sanctions were intended to punish Russia for interfering in the election, but then-Trump aide Michael Flynn asked the Russian ambassador not to escalate the situation so they could have a good relationship once Trump took over.

Trump was open to lifting Russian sanctions

Days before his inauguration, Trump told The Wall Street Journal that he was open to lifting sanctions on Russia. He said: “If you get along and if Russia is really helping us, why would anybody have sanctions if somebody’s doing some really great things?” Putin has tried for years to persuade the US and European countries to end crippling sanctions on Russia’s economy.

Trump refused to say Putin is a killer

Bucking other US leaders, Trump has dismissed credible allegations that Putin uses violence against his opponents. Trump said in 2015, “I think it would be despicable if that took place, but I haven’t seen any evidence that he killed anybody, in terms of reporters.” Asked again in February 2017, Trump deflected, saying, “There are a lot of killers. Do you think our country is so innocent?”

Trump mulled returning spy bases to Russia

The Washington Post reported in May 2017 that the Trump administration considered returning two diplomatic compounds to Russia. The Obama administration expelled Russian diplomats and seized the compounds in New York and Maryland after the 2016 election, claiming they were used for “intelligence” purposes. The compounds were never returned to Russia.

Trump gave Russia classified intelligence

In a shocking move during the early months of his presidency, Trump shared highly classified intelligence with two senior Russian officials during an Oval Office meeting in May 2017. The intelligence, which was about ISIS, was sensitive enough that it could have exposed a vulnerable source. The unplanned disclosure by Trump rattled even many of his Republican allies.

Trump criticized and alienated NATO allies

Trump has repeatedly attacked NATO, aligning himself with Putin, who wants to weaken the alliance. Trump said NATO was “obsolete,” rattling European leaders. At his first NATO summit in May 2017, Trump scolded other countries for not spending enough on defense and declined to commit to NATO’s mutual defense pledge. (Trump later said he supported the mutual defense provision.) He has also said he wanted to withdraw from NATO, according to The New York Times, though it hasn’t happened.

Trump was reluctant to sign Russian sanctions

Lawmakers passed a bipartisan bill in July 2017 imposing new sanctions against Russia, even though Trump administration officials reportedly tried to water down the language. Trump reluctantly signed the bill, but claimed the new law contained “clearly unconstitutional provisions.” Trump had little choice in the matter because the bill had passed with veto-proof majorities: 419-3 in the House and 98-2 in the Senate. (The Treasury Department followed up with several rounds of hard-hitting sanctions.)

Trump proposed a cyber unit with Russia

After the July 2017 meeting of G20 leaders, Trump said he had spoken with Putin about “forming an impenetrable Cyber Security unit” to combat “election hacking.” Trump quickly backtracked after lawmakers from both parties said it would be ridiculous to work with Russia on cybersecurity because Russia was responsible for egregious hacks against American targets, including during the 2016 election.

Trump thanked Putin for expelling US diplomats

Trump thanked Putin for expelling hundreds of US diplomats from Russia in August 2017, saying, “I want to thank him because we’re trying to cut down our payroll.” Putin kicked out the officials to retaliate against US sanctions. Trump’s comments conflicted with the State Department, which said the mass expulsion was “uncalled for.” (Trump later said he was being sarcastic.)

Trump eased sanctions on Deripaska

The Treasury Department in 2018 sanctioned Russian oligarch and Putin ally Oleg Deripaska, along with three companies linked to him, over his support for Russian interference in the 2016 election. But by January 2019, the Trump administration lifted some of these sanctions. In a bipartisan rebuke, 11 Senate Republicans supported a Democratic resolution calling for the sanctions to remain.

Trump congratulated Putin on his sham election

Ignoring the advice of several top national security aides, Trump congratulated Putin on his March 2018 reelection victory. Putin got 77% of the vote, but Western observers declared that the election “lacked genuine competition” and took place in an “overly controlled legal and political environment.” Trump’s critics said he had given the election legitimacy it did not deserve.

Trump balked at sanctions for Skripal poisoning

Trump privately complained about US sanctions intended to punish Russia after one of its ex-spies was poisoned in the United Kingdom, according to Trump’s former national security adviser John Bolton. The US and UK blamed Russia for trying to assassinate the defector, Sergei Skripal. After the sanctions were announced in August 2018, Trump tried to rescind them and said the US was “being too tough on Putin,” according to Bolton’s memoir.

Trump nixed US statement about Russian war

In summer 2018, Trump blocked his administration from releasing a statement on the 10th anniversary of the Russia-Georgia war, according to Bolton’s memoir. Bolton said European leaders noticed Trump’s silence and “became even more concerned about American resolve.” Russia invaded its neighbor Georgia during the five-day war in 2008, and still occupies two breakaway territories.

Trump praised pro-Russian leaders in Europe

On several occasions, Trump has praised controversial far-right European leaders who have been shunned by most US officials because of their close ties to Putin. Trump met at the White House with Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, a top Kremlin ally. He praised the campaign of French politician Marine Le Pen, whose party previously got millions from a Russian bank.

Trump didn’t publicly condemn Russian attack

According to congressional testimony, Trump declined to publicly condemn a Russian attack against Ukrainian military vessels in November 2018, even though the State Department prepared a statement for him. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo criticized Russia’s “dangerous escalation.” The White House didn’t say anything, but Trump canceled a meeting with Putin.

Trump defended Soviet invasion of Afghanistan

During a January 2019 Cabinet meeting, Trump defended the Soviet Union’s invasion of Afghanistan. He said the Soviet Union “was right” to invade in 1979 because “terrorists were going into Russia.” The comments puzzled many observers, who noted that the Soviets had invaded to bolster a communist government and the US had backed Afghan militants who fought the Soviets.

Trump asked allies to let Russia back in the G7

Trump’s Syria withdrawal gave Putin a boost

Trump announced in October 2019 that US troops were withdrawing from northern Syria. The abrupt move cleared the way for Turkey to conquer territories previously controlled by the US and allied Kurdish militias. It also gave Russia a golden opportunity to expand its influence and swiftly take over abandoned US outposts and checkpoints. Trump’s move was a boon for Putin.

Trump repeated Kremlin talking points on ISIS

After announcing the Syria withdrawal, Trump repeated Kremlin talking points about ISIS. He said, “Russia hates ISIS as much as the United States does” and that they are equal partners in the fight. But Trump’s comments don’t reflect the reality on the ground: Since intervening in Syria in 2015, the Russian military has focused its airstrikes on anti-government rebels, not ISIS.

Trump spread Russian myths about Ukraine

During his impeachment proceedings in 2019 and early 2020, Trump said many false things about Ukraine that align with Russian disinformation about the country. This includes claims of uncontrollable corruption, improper ties between Ukrainian officials and the Obama administration, and allegations that Ukraine meddled in US elections. This helps Putin’s goal of destabilizing US-Ukraine relations.

Trump temporarily froze US aid for Ukraine

As the impeachment inquiry revealed, Trump personally froze $391 million in US military and security assistance for Ukraine in mid-2019. US diplomats said Ukraine desperately needed the help for its war against Russian proxies. Previously, the Trump administration had slow-walked sales of anti-tank missiles to Ukraine because of concerns it would upset Russia, according to a State Department official.

Trump smeared US ambassador to Ukraine

For more than a year, Trump privately and publicly attacked Marie Yovanovitch, who was the US ambassador to Ukraine until he recalled her in spring 2019. One of Russia’s goals is to weaken the US-Ukraine alliance – Trump played into that by smearing Yovanovitch and undermining her diplomatic work in Ukraine. Her ouster was a major part of Trump’s impeachment.

Trump considered visiting Putin on Russian soil

Trump said in November 2019 that he was thinking about visiting Russia, at Putin’s invitation, to attend a 2020 military parade in Moscow. The US government has repeatedly called out Russia’s aggressive moves around the world, so a visit from a sitting US president would be highly unusual. Obama made the last visit in 2013, when relations were warmer, before Russia invaded Ukraine. After months of speculation, Trump declined the invitation, as the Covid-19 pandemic wreaked havoc around the world.

Trump gave Putin a PR victory on Covid-19

As the coronavirus pandemic exploded in spring 2020, the US accepted a large delivery of medical supplies from Russia, which were flown into New York City. Trump thanked Putin for the “very nice offer,” even while diplomats sparred over whether the equipment had been donated or purchased. Regardless, experts said the stunt was a propaganda bonanza for the Kremlin.

Trump invited Russia to 2020 G7 summit

Trump announced in May 2020 that he was postponing the US-based G7 summit because of the coronavirus and that he also wanted to extend invitations to Russia and three other countries to participate. Other G7 leaders swiftly rejected Trump’s idea to invite Putin, because Russia still hasn’t withdrawn from Crimea and has continued its aggressive actions around the world.

Trump directed CIA to share intel with Russia

Trump directed the Central Intelligence Agency to share more counterterrorism intelligence with Russia, according to the national security website Just Security, which cited two former CIA officials who had served under Trump. The officials said the US received nothing in return, which is consistent with past intelligence-sharing with Russia.

Trump ignored warnings of Russian bounties

The President was repeatedly told during in-person briefings and in written intelligence reports in 2019 and 2020 that the US government believed Russia paid bounties to Afghan militants to kill Americans, according to CNN and other outlets. Despite being given this information, Trump did not publicly condemn Russia or take any retaliatory actions. Trump has denied receiving any briefings on the topic.

Trump called Russian bounty story a ‘hoax’

Rejecting the findings from US intelligence agencies, Trump said allegations that Russia paid Taliban militants to kill US troops were “another hoax” that was “made up by fake news.” By saying he doesn’t believe the allegations against Russia, Trump publicly sided with the Kremlin, which denies paying any bounties.

Trump never raised Russian bounties with Putin

After Trump was briefed on the Russian bounties, and after the story was revealed by the press, he had several phone calls with Putin. But Trump never raised the topic of bounties with Putin during these calls, never told Putin to stop and never threatened any retaliation. “That’s an issue that many people said was fake news. … I have never discussed it with him,” Trump said in a July 2020 interview with Axios.

Trump ordered US troops out of Germany

In June 2020, Trump approved plans to significantly reduce the number of US troops in Germany. The plan to remove about one-third of the force drew serious concerns from the Pentagon because it could compromise Europe-based defenses against Russia. In a letter to Trump, nearly two dozen Republican lawmakers said his decision would “strengthen the position of Russia to our detriment.”

You know sometimes it’s pretty sickening to read this European holier than thou lecturing. The fact is China, Russia and Iran did very little in Trump’s term and a whole lot in Biden and Obama’s. You can’t even acknowledge that because you are so twisted with dislike for the boorish Trump.

Forget what I said it being like a cult with Trump supporters it is a cult. And I literally did just acknowledge some of the good things Trump did.

But go on explain exactly what China was suppose to be doing that Trump's presence stopped. Can you point to examples of where China changed its trade policy or stopped with its copy right theft of western technologies. Maybe you have concrete proof they where going to invade Taiwan but Trump scared them out of it? Care to explain why they have not made a move with the weak and distracted Biden.. Have you perhaps thought that maybe the reason China hasn't yet made a move on Taiwan isn't to do with either Trump or Biden per say but more they don't think they can match the American military yet.

Can you do that and perhaps we can have something that approaches a normal political debate or do you just want to go back to your faux outrage.

How conveniently you forget that twice in the 20th century young men from places you would look down on, came and saved Europe from itself. Died for countries they would never have visited but for your wars.

I did what now? Typically populist bullshit, wrapping itself in the cloak of revered past generations and claiming criticism of your present ideology is a criticism of them. Pathetic man, absolutely pathetic.   

The notion that men from the MAGA men from Kansas aren’t worth considering

What? Is that you Mike?

is just as bad as saying that immigrants from South America are criminals. People are not that different the world over, but the systems they function in are. 

I was glad you called out Mike called those immigrants scum in another thread. And agree with you that people are not that different but they their political systems are.

If it wasn’t for America Europe would have been dominated by Germany, and after the war dominated by Russia….a little respect for the blood that was shed to ensure your comfortable lives would be nice.

So you can speak for all those who Americans who fought in World War 2 and know for a fact that nowadays they would be Trump supporters.

Do Americans think France is beyond criticism because of their vital aid in the American war of Independence. Of course not, American's where too busy pouring French wine down the drain and renaming French Fries to Freedom Frees in the run up to the Iraq War when the French didn't buy US stories of weapons of mass destruction at the UN and insisted weapon inspectors be given more time. Wonder who got vindicated in the end?

Stop hijacking a generation not around to to speak for itself. That's whats disrespectful.

And stop misrepresenting history while you are at it. We got enough of that with Ridley Scott's take on Napoleon.

I don’t particularly care for Trump’s style and I think he is too old and too encumbered to be effective in another term. But I’d take Trump over a 100 stuffed shirt, never did anything,  Brussels bureaucrats.

Except negotiate the most trade deals in the world  Gotta love the way you feel compelled to criticize the EU but can't come up with anything other than a Nigel Farage style cliche.

Jan6

On that fateful day, Trump told the crowd he had summoned to Washington that:

We will never give up, we will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it any more … We will stop the steal … Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back … You’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong … We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country any more.

Afterward, the crowd stormed the Capitol...............

out of obeyance to their cult leader

In the case of China, there was no serious attempt to address any of the abuses until Trump took office. With the establishment kicking and screaming he used tariffs to signal US intent. Much of that signaling was undermined by the attacks designed to weaken his presidency. 

But it’s had an effect, companies started looking at other offshore options and China is in pretty awful economic shape right now. From the point  Trump’s contain China strategy started the Dow is up by 95% and the Shanghai composite index is down 15%.

There are many reasons for that, but Trump’s stance was an important signal.

As for the past generations, nice to jettison all that huh? I’m not cloaking myself in anything, I’m saying the US saved Europe twice. And I guarantee you the guys who did that were closer to Trump’s base than Biden.

But you don’t have to go that far back. How much money has the US tax payer poured into NATO, while the countries NATO defends balked on payments. NATO is a huge gift from America to Europe.

Nobody is beyond criticism. But America remembers the French role, freeing Paris was a major American goal in WW2 and  they disastrously helped France in Vietnam. Today private American citizens are playing a big role in the restoration of Versailles.  

And while their support in obtaining Independence is frequently cited, France’s support  happened 260 years ago, whereas there are many Americans still alive that made sacrifices to save Europe. Most notably the children of those servicemen, many of whom were gone for years. And then they returned, but many were damaged

And right on your border the US has provided plenty of support:

For over twenty years the Good Friday Agreement (also known as the Belfast Agreement) has been the bedrock of peace, stability, and prosperity for all the people of Northern Ireland. The United States continues to support the agreement and its implementation. Since 1986 the United States has contributed more than $544 million to the International Fund for Ireland for projects that sustain the peace process and generate cross-community engagement and economic opportunity.

Since WW2 the US has made these kinds of contributions to many countries. All paid for by the US tax payer. A little respect would not be out of place. 

• Jacob Knutson
• https://www.axios.com/2023/10/02/trump-troops-fallen-soldiers-john-kelly







Former President Trump didn't want to visit a cemetery near Paris for Americans who fought and died in World War I because it was filled with "suckers" and "losers," John Kelly, his longest-serving chief of staff, said in a statement to CNN on Monday.

Why it matters: In the statement, Kelly supported this and several other instances of Trump disparaging service members that were reported by The Atlantic in 2020 and vehemently denied at the time by the Republican 2024 presidential front-runner.

Of note: Fox News reporter Jennifer Griffin previously confirmed parts of The Atlantic's story, including his refusal to visit the Aisne-Marne Cemetery in France.

The big picture: Other instances in the statement from Kelly, whose Marine son, Robert Kelly, was killed in Afghanistan in 2010, that appeared to confirm the report were:

• Trump saying at a 2017 Memorial Day event in Arlington National Cemetery: "I don't get it. What was in it for them?"
• Kelly said Trump did not want to include military amputees at a White House military event in 2018 because it would make spectator's uncomfortable, and added that Trump had said their presence "doesn't look good for me."
• Kelly also noted that Trump in 2016 publicly belittled the parents of Humayun Khan, an Army captain and Gold Star recipient who was killed in Iraq in 2004, after they criticized him for his anti-Muslim rhetoric.
• And he condemned Trump for accusing retiring Joint Chiefs of Staff Chair Gen. Mark Milley last month of treason and suggesting that the punishment for such an act would have once been death.

What they're saying: ""A person who is not truthful regarding his position on the protection of unborn life, on women, on minorities, on evangelical Christians, on Jews, on working men and women," Kelly said of Trump.

• "A person that has no idea what America stands for and has no idea what America is all about. A person who cavalierly suggests that a selfless warrior who has served his country for 40 years in peacetime and war should lose his life for treason — in expectation that someone will take action," he continued, referring to Trump's statements on Milley.
• "A person who admires autocrats and murderous dictators. A person that has nothing but contempt for our democratic institutions, our Constitution, and the rule of law," he added.
• "There is nothing more that can be said. God help us."

The other side: A Trump campaign spokesperson said in an emailed statement on Monday night, "John Kelly has totally clowned himself with these debunked stories he's made up because he didn't serve his President well while working as Chief of Staff."

Flashback: Trump fires back at John Kelly: He "just can't keep his mouth shut"

Editor's note: This article has been updated with comment from the Trump campaign and further context

PSSSSSSTT Plum.....over here

"Having jumped on the Trump/Russia bandwagon makes you stooge."

I never voiced an opinion in the debate.

The only one time I did was when a regular poster asked if I believed Trump had colluded with the Russians. My answer is locked in the archives and was made after the Mueller report was published......you seem to have lots of time on your hands go on then.... find it .....and OBTW while you at it find a post where I'd jumped on the "Trump/Russia bandwagon."

Now that's a good little boy.

One more thing....you need to temper your DDS(Denny Deranged Syndrome) it sounds like I'm living rent free in your head....Denny this Denny that Nyaah Nyaaah Nyaaaah....get it??? 

Good.

Consider my response a favour, as a rule I don't normally dignify insignificance with a response and you are insignificant.

There's no need to thank me.

"So you can speak for all those who Americans who fought in World War 2 and know for a fact that nowadays they would be Trump supporters"

"But its also partial a perception issue and a lack of understanding of how the economy works"

"Trump supporters on the other hand have this exaggerated perception of how the economy performed"

"Many America's don't realize the American economy is doing better than the rest of the world" 

You seem to be doing a great job yourself.... on talking about the American people .... without any facts..... just lots of assumptions.

"Its the same crap we got about how Trump got European NATO countries to pay more money"

As a political gesture, more money was paid over to NATO directly because of Trump .... this is a fact.

"I'm not arguing the fact that most Americans feel at the moment towards Trump or Biden, they have indeed lived it and I understand why"

You most certainly are.... in fact, you are coming across as making out that most Americans are all very stupid because they don't understand their own country.... and that they have the incorrect "perception" of how their own country and economy works....read your posts dude

"and the Hamas attack on Israel had nothing to do with who the President in the White House is. They where coming regardless of who was President"

Maybe so, but more assumptions.....

"I can't help you look at reality, or not make you condescendingly dismiss facts"

Wow ... the irony here

"Get real. How about try leaving the cult"

You honestly lose all credibility when you resort to insults like this....

There is a possibility that Trump will never get to sit at the oval desk again.... and it wouldn't bother me if he didn't.... just anyone else other than Biden or Harris ,,,,,,,but the way it's looking right now, I certainly wouldn't bet against Trump.

Trump just made a very bold move by bringing Vivek and Tim Scott onto the stage with him. 

I have said it before a few times on here already, it would not surprise me at all if Trump was elected president again....

In the case of China, there was no serious attempt to address any of the abuses until Trump took office. With the establishment kicking and screaming he used tariffs to signal US intent. Much of that signaling was undermined by the attacks designed to weaken his presidency.

Well you can say their was no serious action on China's abuses, you could argue that in the business sphere and trade, but it was actually Hilary Clinton back in 2010 that first came up with the pivot to Asia strategy specifically with the goal of countering the rise of China. Obama began to implement that strategy. So one can argue it was the Democrats who first realized China was America's main strategic competitor on the world stage, both economically and militarily.

Now as for the tariffs those who pushed back against them where vindicated. They hurt America as much as China. Also just an aside here but going back to your comment on 100 stuff shirt never did anything Brussels bureaucrats, you might want to take note of how the EU was much cleverer  than either the US or China in how it chose its retaliatory sanctions on the US. They carefully selected ones that didn't hurt themselves.

Now this is not to say everything Trump did with regards China was wrong. He passed some legislation (some with bi-paritsan support I might add) that could prove useful down the road and aid in how America does business with China. However their is nothing during the Trump Presidency that indicated China had reversed any of its trade policies, its abuse of intellectual properties or that it stopped militarizing the South China sea etc. The lack of say any Chinese military action against Taiwan is not an indicator that China feared or respected Trump any more than a lack of military action against Taiwan during Obama's term or so far through Biden's term indicates they fear or respect either of those two men. Its far more probably that China had simply no intention of Taiwan during those time periods, most likely because they simply don't feel strong enough militarily or don't believe the odds of success are in their favor.

But it’s had an effect, companies started looking at other offshore options and China is in pretty awful economic shape right now. From the point  Trump’s contain China strategy started the Dow is up by 95% and the Shanghai composite index is down 15%.

There are many reasons for that, but Trump’s stance was an important signal.

Yes its generally a good idea to not be heavily dependent economically on an authoritarian regime as Europe found out with Russia. But as for China's economy and its stock market issues, they have almost nothing to do with Trump's actions and entirely to do with factors within China and current global factors.

And while their support in obtaining Independence is frequently cited, France’s support  happened 260 years ago, whereas there are many Americans still alive that made sacrifices to save Europe. Most notably the children of those servicemen, many of whom were gone for years. And then they returned, but many were damaged

I completely acknowledge that huge sacrifice many American's made during WW2.

As for the past generations, nice to jettison all that huh? I’m not cloaking myself in anything, I’m saying the US saved Europe twice. And I guarantee you the guys who did that were closer to Trump’s base than Biden.

I did no such thing. A few years back on this forum I believe Shark (sorry if it wasn't you) made a post where he was either directly attacking Trump or linking to a post or meme which was something along the lines that those who died in Pearl Harbor would not have approved of Trump. I pointed out he shouldn't really be making political claims of what long dead people who are not around to speak for themselves. You then posted a comment supporting me on that. My how times have changed.

But since we are now going there. I could make the argument that since they elected a democratic President an unprecedented 4 times in a row (yes I know you don't change President during a war) maybe they would be more inclined to vote Democrat now. After all FDR was a very popular President. But leaving that aside perhaps the same generation who fought in World War 2 would hear Trump say terms like "they are poisoning our blood" and say OMG that's straight out of Hitlers speech book. But here is the thing I don't know what the majority of that generation would think of nowadays politics and neither do you.

As for saving Europe twice. Not to belittle American's contribution to World War 1, but they effectively entered that war when German was already defeated. Its Spring offensive had failed and it stuck on the defensive outnumber by the British and French on the verge of starvation. Yes American troops played a major role in the Hundred Day Offensive and the final break through but they contributed just a third of the troops involved in that offensive.

As for World War 2, leaving aside the fact America remained out of it and only joined the European War when Germany and Italy declared war on it (who knows what would of happened if they didn't), America played a major role in liberating Europe, no doubt that the UK could not have done that on its own . Bit its distasteful not to acknowledge that World War 2 was a team effort. When British people say we won the war, or Britain stood alone in the first years of the war its not accurate, the British won won the war with the aid of its allies and it wasn't Britain standing alone against Germany it was the British Empire. When it comes to Russia, they played the biggest single role in defeating Germany but when they say they could of won the war on its own without the western allies that might be true but the cost would of be millions more of them dead and they certainly could not have won the war without the other member states of the Soviet Union, like Ukraine, Georgia. Could America have beaten Germany on its own, possibly yes but again at millions of lives lost.  Absolutely America played a massive role in liberating Europe and Europe will never forget that. But that doesn't mean Europe forever and a day has to agree with the US on everything.

But you don’t have to go that far back. How much money has the US tax payer poured into NATO, while the countries NATO defends balked on payments. NATO is a huge gift from America to Europe.

I actually agree that Europe should have been paying more into NATO and NATO has been beneficial to Europe but the US has its own reasons for being in NATO, its not just a case of America being charitable.

Nobody is beyond criticism. But America remembers the French role, freeing Paris was a major American goal in WW2 and  they disastrously helped France in Vietnam. Today private American citizens are playing a big role in the restoration of Versailles.

Glad we agree that nobody is beyond criticism. But once again you demonstrate an ignorance of history. Paris was never a major American objective in World War, in fact the Allies intended to bypass the city. It was the Free French who ignored orders and liberated it.

As for helping France in Vietnam, that wasn't out of any love for the French or for any historical reason, America actually initially opposed continued French colonial rule of Vietnam, but changed tact to combat Communism.

Also I assume you mean the restoration of Notre Dame? Sure that's very kind of those private citizens. Americans are actually a charitable people. Its a very positive trait. I've no problem acknowledging that.

And right on your border the US has provided plenty of support:

I was actually really curious if you would ever bring up the really positive role the US played in the Good Friday agreement. Of if they fact that it was a Democrat administration who was involved in the negotiations would stick in your throat too much for you to acknowledge it.

Absolutely America played a major role in the Good Friday agreement. However I'll point out that to Ireland, Brexit was seen as posing an existential threat to the Good Friday agreement. Guess who was a supporter of Brexit. Donald J Trump. He also demonstrated his ignorance once again on the world stage when he visited Ireland (go on, I'm waiting for the insult that Ireland is a tiny country that doesn't matter so its not really the world stage) and thought the situation with the border in the Northern Ireland was actually that the Republic of Ireland wanted to build a border wall just like Trump wanted to do on the Mexican border, the literal polar opposite of what Ireland wanted. As one American pundit put it at the time, Ireland welcomed Trump to Ireland, Trump shat on the rug.

Since WW2 the US has made these kinds of contributions to many countries. All paid for by the US tax payer. A little respect would not be out of place.

You talk about me being disrespectful. I'm not the one who's repeatedly disrespected history by repeadetly showing ignorance of it.  Perhaps Donald Trump could of shown more respect when he didn't visit the grave of American's who died in World War 1 because it was raining (had he never heard of an umbrella?) , perhaps he should not have picked a fight and insulted an actually war hero in John McCain, perhaps he he shouldn't have called American's who died in past conflicts suckers and losers?

As for me I don't believe criticizing another country is a lack of respect, its simply me disagreeing with a countries policies and pointing to the evidence why I disagree with it. Same when I criticize my own country or another country that isn't America. Ir-regardless of the good things America has done around the world in the past, it does not make it immune from criticism. I'm sure you and I both agree how bad Biden handled the Afghan withdrawal, so are we both being disrespectful or is criticism of the US only disrespectful when it happens to be criticism with a person or policy you happen to agree with.

perhaps he should not have picked a fight and insulted an actually war hero in John McCain, perhaps he he shouldn't have called American's who died in past conflicts suckers and losers?

Funny how it was ok to slagg off McCain, how will I ever forget how they rubbished a hero whose only crime was to stand firm against Trump.

You seem to be doing a great job yourself.... on talking about the American people .... without any facts..... just lots of assumptions.

Well the economic numbers for America are actually quite good right now that's pretty damn factual. Most economists have a positive outlook for America again factual. Consumer confidence and public sentiment would normally by quite good but from polling its much lower than would be expected.

As a political gesture, more money was paid over to NATO directly because of Trump .... this is a fact.

Except................. here is a graph from July 2023 from NATO itself on European and Canadian defense spending.

What this clearly show's is that from a reaching low point in 2014, the European countries and Canada upped their spending. So spending had started to increase after 2014 when during the Obama Presidency European countries committed to spending 2% of GDP on defense spending by 2024, this was no doubt spurred by Russia's action in Ukraine in 2014. Under Trump the rate of European defense spending remained virtually identical to what had began under Obama. There was no significant increasing in overall European defense spending. When Trump bitched and moaned all Europe did was recommit to the 2014 pledge but it never committed to spending more. There was reports of small increase in the rate of spending back in 2019 but nothing that significantly altered the number of states that where hitting the two 2% pledge or where going to hit it by 2024. It's only now in the the light of Russian full invasion of Ukraine has Europe significantly increased its defense spending. 

So one last final time the narrative that Trump got Europe to spend more on NATO is false. At the very most he had a minor effect on it and at that came no where close to making European NATO hit its 2% commitment.

You most certainly are.... in fact, you are coming across as making out that most Americans are all very stupid because they don't understand their own country.... and that they have the incorrect "perception" of how their own country and economy works....read your posts dude

Alright I apologize if I come across that way. Sometimes when you get into debate like this and the other side is questioning your intelligence its easy to go down that path which is something I try to avoid, not always successfully, I do believe most people regardless of which side of the political spectrum are on do not understand how politics or the economy work and that's that applies to all countries. Its not so much a matter of intelligence but a matter of them not having the time to fully understand them, but their too busy going about their normal day to day life and I'm not criticizing for that. Does intelligence play a role, yes I think it does and particularly when it comes to critically evaluating information and while that may across as me being arrogant I'm not claiming to be a particular smart person myself.

But on the other hand people on the other side of the argument appear to have no issues suggesting the others side are incredible unintelligent people totally swayed by the media and completely and utterly unable to think for ourselves. We are completely blind to a massive conspiracy.

Double standard do you not think?

Maybe so, but more assumptions.....

Maybe it is an assumption but so is the idea that Trump was feared or respected. I've yet to see any evidence that any authoritarian regime or terrorist organization respected or feared Trump. Absence of a terrorist or military attacks does not mean Trump's presence prevented one. Correlation does not imply causation.

Wow ... the irony here

You gotta love how often Dbdraad when talking about the Ukraine conflict says, "the conflict just does not makes sense, what has either side got to gain I simply don't understand it and what its all about....except that its the fault of Joe Biden for his handling of the American withdrawal from Afghanistan!" LMAO Again correlation does not imply causation. Provide me with evidence and I'll listen otherwise its just speculating If someone makes a claim you provide the evidence.

You honestly lose all credibility when you resort to insults like this....

Honestly you never had any to begin with.

You may just want to take those glasses back off sunshine..... because your credibility has now dropped below gutter level.

"Under Trump the rate of European defense spending remained virtually identical to what had began under Obama. There was no significant increasing in overall European defense spending. When Trump bitched and moaned all Europe did was recommit to the 2014 pledge but it never committed to spending more"

"So one last final time th e narrative that Trump got Europe to spend more on NATO is false"

This is a blatant lie from you ..... not even just misinformation, or you being stupid, ignorant or misinformed..... it's just a downright blatant lie from you, that Europe did not commit to spending more with NATO, whilst Trump was president.

Not only was Trump directly involved in Turkey and Canada agreeing to contribute more towards the annual $2.5 billion budget to run NATO, but also the proposed amendments to the actual NATO agreement for all parties involved.

Paris abstained from the proposal but did not block the proposal, and all 29 NATO member states's contributions to NATO's annual budget would change after this proposed reform for all parties involved.

Under the new proposal that was negotiated for the 2021 NATO budget, under Trump's presidency, the USA's budget would be reduced from 22% to 16% and Germany's contribution would rise to the same level as the USA, as well as other contributions rising as well.

As of 2019, only 7 countries met or exceeded the NATO target of spending 2% of national output on defense, and they were USA, UK, Greece, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia.

This was all negotiated whilst Trump was president, and the fact that you refuse to even slightly recognize that Trump was involved with this, just shows your childish dislike for the man, whilst also completely overlooking and disregarding what he did achieve during his term with NATO.

As a matter of fact.... maybe put the glasses back on sunshine..... because the spotlight on your hypocrisy, ignorance or stupidity is very bright.