It doesn't seem

as if the war in Ukraine is anywhere near the endgame, little Puti's idea of running over the Ukrainians in a six week onslaught looks set to go on for a few years yet. But if the war lingers on with no end in sight then if I were Puti I'd be a very nervous man, an atmosphere of anxiety sweeping through the country could lead to the removal of little Puti, the longer the war goes the worse it becomes for him. There'd be an Oligarch or two running out of patience with him as they watch their resources dwindle. Money buys anything and everything.

Denny\

You are saying  the oligargs will copy the US ultra rich in seizing control of the country through  their total control over of the Democratic Party?       

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/06/us-economy-excellent/678630/

The U.S. Economy Reaches Superstar Status - The Atlantic

No Mike that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a plan will evolve to get rid of Puti.  Money speaks so it wouldn't surprise me if it initiated by  the Oligarchs. Puti's popularity will fade as a used by date the longer the war lingers.

I don't know how close we are to that possibility. I'd imagine Putin's rather theatrical disposal of Prigozhin was likely an effective warning to not rock the boat.

Right now Putin is playing the long game, banking on the change in western support towards Ukraine.

To think that ole PigOshit's now up in heaven alongside the multitude of Russian war dead who gave their lives in the holy quest of deNazification.

Right now Putin is playing the long game, banking on the change in western support towards Ukraine.

I'm not convinced he's playing the long game, he miscalculated that the war would be over by now and it doesn't appear to be finishing soon. Puti is on overtime.

The Ukraine army is still retreating  and the war will end once agreement is reached on peace negotiations and Ukraine will remain and become a democratic constitutional state - which it is not at present.   The Present Ukraine has no Constitution and the election of a President has been potponed indefinitely by the present undemocratic dictatorship.      

The Ukraine army is still retreating

Mike you have been saying the Ukraine army is retreating for so long, I think they must have circumnavigated the globe twice over at this point.

Hey, remember when I said, literally at the start of this, that the West was missing a trick by demonising Russians?

...that the best way to end it would have been to propagandise the living hell out of average Russians, making it clear that Putin, and not Russia, was to blame? How that would have given his enemies within Russia enough public support to topple Putin?

Nah, instead ya'll agreed on the fuck Russia and fuck Putin tactic.

No we just supported Ukraine's right to defend itself and ignored nonsense suggestion's that had no realistic possibility of ever being implemented. 

Well, I suppose a bunch of US/EU money has flooded into Ukraine with a decent percentage of it coming back to Western politicians and businesses.

Hey, remember when I said...

Listen to the self important Fat Lip.....why would anyone remember what you say when it's of zero importance to anyone else Huh? 

Got that?

No chance of being implemented?

Well to be more accurate, such a propaganda campaign may actually be in affect in some form or scale, after all it would be better to not actually announce your doing such a thing, but the likely hood of it having already triggered some sort of coup or uprising against Putin by now is extremely remote if only the west had gone all in on it, just seems to be excuse to be critical of the west.

This on the same forum where the Trump haters declare that Russia influenced the US election via bots on social media. And in a world where US companies own every important social media network other than TikTok?

There is considerable difference between influencings voting in elections in democratic countries and trying to get enough people to risk their own freedom and lives in challenging an authoritarian power with control of the police, intelligence services and the military during a time when that country is at war with another country. Asides the point we have no idea how effective the Russian election interference was back in 2016.

If there was a will to influence Russians against Putin, there was more than a way...there was an information superhighway begging to be made use of.

The net is not free in Russia. Its heavily monitored and most western social media platforms are banned, like Facebook and Twitter. A core part of Putin's support come from the elderly in Russia who's internet usage rates are very low and they get their news primarily from state media. Then you have the diehard Z Patriots who are supportive of the war, they are not going be turned. You also have a section of the Russian population who may not be in favour of the war but still support the war simply because they don't want to see Russia lose the war, as it would be a national humiliation. The majority of the Russian population is de-politicized (something the Russian government wants and spent decades achieving) and just trying to keep their heads down and get on with their lives and not come to the attention of the police state. Remember there was protests at the start of the war. The Russian state cracked down and they ceased happening. Then you had people who fled Russia avoiding mobilization. They obviously weren't support of the war but they didn't want to confront the state, they just wanted to get out of Russia. There is also no real political opposition and foreign media unless pro Putin regime are banned and regular news media in Russia is controlled by the state with no news permitted critical of the Putin regime. As for the Oligarch's its not like they didn't know the true nature of the Putin regime, he put them into power and they willing played his game. They could potentially turn against Putin, but before they risk their lives doing so the quality of there own lives would have to significantly degrade or they fear doing nothing more than confronting him. 

...and that's just for a start.

The West could relatively easily have influenced Russian's against Putin.

If its that simple why hasn't the west used similar techniques to easily covert all its rivals over to its side. Like say China?.  I have no idea how you can call it easy to influence people to risk their lives to turn against Putin.

The question is why they didn't.

Does anyone have an intelligent answer?

I said "intelligent"...so the is where you exit the room, Denise.

For the reason I listed above. 

Denny

I don't think the media reports is entirely accurate.   A corrding  to the poor and the working class he US  economy is anything but booming  while in an opinion poll 71% of th e vvoters claimed he ecionomy is a disaster.   

The people suffer badly from ever-incrasing inflation - while the rich enjoy the boost on the New York Stock Exchange enjoy the system - the majority of voters suffers badly under what they regard as a lie.

Another part of the stats the working  class   and poor disbelieive  for instance is the job opportunity growth,   The Biden Administratoion the jobs grew by the jobs growth is refleced it is found that -

*    the job growth does not reflect the fact that although there were allegedly 6 million growth in jobs it does not reflect  the growth is not reflecting reality - there was a loss of  2,6 million ful-tme job losses during the time Biden was president  and that was replaced  by part time jobs and by job growth in the Federal Public Service - both of which are not working out for the poor and working class people;

*     due to spending sprees and poor administration the Social Security Funds are near to running out and there is fear that the elderly and unemployed who depnd on that source for survival is running out of funding and near to bankruptsy;

*     The New York Times at one stage report there were 85 000  unaccompanied children and hey vanised after they were handed over to apparent child traffickers after they crossed the border - those children end up doing work previously done by full time workers and now being virtually slave laborers while another part of the children ended up as sex slaves.   So US workers are replaced by lower paid liillegal migrants whom effectively is provided with housing and credit cards to ensure survival - while the survival of the jobs who lost their jobs to migrants are suffering; and

*     There are 22% of the US  citiizens living below the breadline and survive by getting fed by food banks  - one does not expect that from happening in the wealthiest country in the world.

That is why the Blacks and Hispanics are deserting  the Democratic Part - they suffer while the rich are the only beneficiaties in the present environment.

Insafar as Russia is concerned - the Woke culture and leftist  regimes  are losing support as shown in the latest EU elections.   The rightwing  parties made massive inroads and to stop the flow to the right countries - so center right parties have also use the inflation and the Ukraine War is causing massive suffering  for people.   For instance the present  German Coalition Governments between the three paties in the EU election has now got the support of less than 30% of the voters - while the rightwing AfD is norw the second strongerst political party in Germany.   In France the result as so bad that Macron disolved the French Parliament and called for a new election.

Now back to Russia - the Russians are not as badly influenced by the Woke culture and will not support anything  that weakens the country and unlike the USA where the ordinary suffering people does not for instance  support tthe Ukraine War.   In Russia the War is seen as a need to protect the Russian Speaking people  living in Eastern Ukraine - knowing their history they believe that it is their duty to support Russian people being oppressed  even endangered in Ukraine.    So the Russians would take suffering like they did in WW2 to a level where they are protecting  themselves by supporting  the Russian speaking Easte rn Ukraine people from people who caused the death of 18 000 civillins during  the Civil War that broke out in 2014 and statements by the present Ukraine has already implmented that if the Russian Speaking people.speak Russian in public they are fined and Russian speaking people have to send their children to Russia for schooling  becasue Russian has been banned in Ukraine schools.  The Russian people am according to them under threat by the Ukraine Government - who also banned he Greek Orthodox Church attended by 80% of the Ukraine population.   The Ukraine Government spokesman has warned the Russian speaking people of Ukraine will have to change their culutre and language or they will be forcible removed from Eastrn Ukraine - in other ethnic cleansing.   So a hell of-a-lot is going  to have to happen to change the Russian cuture and beliefs  the media does not understand the real situation and to suggest that the Russian Govenrent will fall if the war drags on is not what history tells us about the Russian people and their believes.                                                                                                                                                                                 

And yet…..that’s exactly what happened to the Soviet Union. It imploded.

It had nothing  to do with what happened in 1991 in the USSR - a country under a dictarship where the people rejected the Communist regime.   

But then you lot will believe anything   you read in the newspapers -  Russian people may reject Governments oppressing them - but they will not accept the Russian speaking  people whose ancestors were living  in Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea for longer than any Ukrainian lived in those areas - to be oppressed by a foreign unconstitutional dictatorship - like the Ukraine is at present, especially if they threaten the local Russian speaking population and already murdered 18 000  people between 2014 and 2022 in the Ukraine ethnic cleansing campaign. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/14/vladimir-putin-issues-fresh-demands-to-ukraine-to-end-war

Russian president’s new ultimatum comes as foreign envoys meet in Switzerland to discuss western-led peace plan

Vladimir Putin has demanded that Kyiv cede more land, withdraw troops deeper inside its own country and drop its Nato bid in order for him to end his war in Ukraine.

Putin’s fresh ceasefire demands were issued as envoys from more than 90 countries, including Ukraine, convene in Switzerland this weekend to discuss a western-led peace plan. Russia is not invited to the conference and Putin’s remarks on Friday are likely to have been timed as a spoiler to that summit.

Speaking to diplomats at the Russian foreign ministry, Putin publicly updated his terms for ending the war in Ukraine for the first time since he launched a full-scale invasion in February 2022, when he demanded regime change in Kyiv and the country’s “demilitarisation”.

The US defence secretary, Lloyd Austin, said Putin was in no position to make demands on Ukraine and could end the war he had started “today if he chose to do that”.

The Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, said the offer could not be trusted and Putin would not stop his military offensive even if his ceasefire demands were met.

The new terms appear to be a nonstarter, as Putin staked out a maximalist position that included claims on land that Russia has “annexed” without holding under its military control. Putin demanded that Ukrainian troops leave the entire regions of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia and that they be declared Russian territory by international agreement, calling the issue “closed” for Russia.

“As soon as Kyiv says it is ready to make this decision, begins the actual pull-out of forces from those regions and formally declares the abandonment of its plans to join Nato, we will instantly, that very second, order a ceasefire and begin negotiations,” Putin said.

He also demanded that the west drop all financial sanctions against Russia as a precondition to a ceasefire. This week the US expanded sanctions on the Russian banking sector, currency trading on the largest Russian stock exchange, and microchips and other technology. US Treasury officials said they were targeting the Russian financial infrastructure and access to third markets as Russia completed its “transition to a full war economy”.

The G7, which comprises the US, UK, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Japan, agreed this week to use Russian sovereign assets frozen in the west as collateral for a $50bn loan package that would help keep Ukraine’s economy afloat in what has become a war of attrition against its Russian neighbour.

Putin on Friday decried the agreement as an attempt to provide “some kind of legal basis” for “theft”. “Despite all the trickery, this theft will certainly remain a theft,” he told diplomats during the speech. “And it will not go unpunished.”

Ukraine and western countries are highly unlikely to agree to Putin’s terms. Kyiv has demanded that Russian troops leave its territory and that it return control over the 1991 borders, including the Crimean peninsula annexed by Moscow in 2014. Ukrainian officials quickly dismissed Putin’s remarks as a “complete sham”.

“Of course, there is no novelty in this, no real peace proposals and no desire to end the war,” wrote Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to the Ukrainian presidential administration. “But there is a desire not to pay for this war and to continue it in new formats. It’s all a complete sham. Therefore, once again, get rid of illusions and stop taking seriously the [Russian proposals] that are offensive to common sense.”

Podolyak interpreted Putin’s proposals as telling Ukraine to “give us your territories”, “give up your sovereignty and subjectivity”, and to “leave yourselves unprotected” by committing to a non-aligned status outside of Nato.

The alliance’s secretary general, Jens Stoltenberg, rejected the conditions set out by Putin. “This is a proposal that actually means that Russia should achieve their war aims, by expecting that Ukrainians should give up significantly more land than Russia has been able to occupy so far,” he said. “This is a proposal of more aggression, more occupation and, and it demonstrates, in a way, that Russia’s aim is to control Ukraine.”

Tatiana Stanovaya, the founder of R.Politik, a political analysis firm, said: “This is not a peace plan but a series of maximalist demands directed at the west and Ukraine in exchange for ending hostilities. Moscow offers no concessions; there is no scope for compromise.”

Zelenskiy last November issued a 10-point peace plan that included stipulations that Russia leave Ukrainian territory and that a special tribunal be established to investigate war crimes.

Putin on Friday dismissed the forthcoming peace summit in Switzerland, saying it was “just another trick to distract everyone’s attention”.

Yet Draad talks about negotiations.

I'm not sure how true this is but it's been reported that Trump has stated that he won't support Ukraine if elected. Music to the ears of Puti as he only has a few months to wait to claim victory and glory.

The only way for the war to end is either a negotiated deal or defeat for one side...what is the realistic chance of Russia being defeated without direct NATO military involvement?...some say with enough Western support Ukraine can defeat Russia...I don't think so.

Denny

Trump never ever said what was reported in the media.   He  clearly wanted a negotiated end to the war and not an endless war the USA  is very keen on - like the 23 year Afghan was and 21 year Iraq war.   

He knows what is happening in corrupt activities of politicians and bureaucrats stealing public money through kickbacks and tried to stop it worldwide - not only in Ukraine.   Yet two of the most corrupt politicians in the USA  just trailing Biden in those stakes by inches - started impeachment processes against Trump because his decision not to send money to Ukraine - but purhase weapons in the USA and sent them the  purchased arms - hit them hard in the pocket.

Be it as it may - Trump wants peace negotiations - but he also not be in the situation where the Russians have all the aces.    He wants an independent and democratic country of Ukraine - not a country where the constitution was destroyed by the coup in 2014 and where the USA appointed the new Government in Ukraine.  There is proof that the USA funded and organized the 2014 coup in Ukraine.

The Ukraine Constitution which guaranteed the rights of all people to equal treatment - irrespective of language of culture was destroyed and  replaced by idealogues who preached removal of all civil liberties in Ukraine and that extend to  destruction of Russian speaking people in Eastern Ukraine which led to the civil war in Eastern Ukraine which caused 18 000 deaths - mostly of  civillians by a armed battalion called the Asov battalion - who was found to be a mercenary and terrorist organization  by the UN  causing the death of thousands of civilillians in Odessa and Mariopol.   That was why the Battalion - previouly a private army of reactionaries was absorbed in the Ukraine army.    

Be it as it may - Trump wants money to look after US citizens in the first isntance and maintnance of the USA as a superpower respected worldwide.   He is not the coward who does not know his arse from the elbow involved in destroying the USA internalitioanlly from within.    Take one example - when Biden was talking to the Australian Prime Minister he forgot whom he was talking to  and called him the chap from down under - recorded on the actual converssation.    How do anybody really negotiate anything with the dummy.   He met Putin in Geneva in 2021 and  was so confused that nothing came out of the discussions.    After that he even was afraid to contact Putin by phone and never did.   Biden's only foreign achievement was farting in front of royalty which led to comments by the present Queen.   Please note that Biden was not welcome at two subsequent royal events - namely the  burial of Queen Elizabeth and  the crowning fo King Charles and his wife attended both on Biden's behalf because Biden was clearly not welcomed..

I do remember one remark of Putin - namely that Trump is a difficult person to negotiate with as he is putting USA interests above everything  else.   Trump would not see Ukraine as a part of Russia and would want guraranteed protection of Ukraine as an independent country being a  constitutional democracy.   

That is why Putin said he support the election of Biden as US President - because there is ample evidence of Biden corruption  all of Russia, Iran and China and the only bloody old fool with make statments written out for him against Russia, China and Iran and in return in reality would do nothing  against them rather than rant and rave in public.           

So what will happen when Trump takes over.   It will not take longer than a day to arrive at a peace agreement that like the Minsk agreement on Ukraine peace based on a Constitution aimed at development be in place - which Biden  sabotaged,.    That will end the unwinnable Ukraine war in 14 days and lead to restoring of Ukraine as an independent country.

The world need peace and development - not the BS stemming from the present US Government. 

                      .             

Through  centuries Russia suvived all military attacks on Russia by foreign countries - 

*    the destruction of the Polish army that occupied Moscow in 1613; 

*    the Swedish invasion leading to the Swedish  army destruction in the battle of Poltava (1709)  forcing the Swedish king  to flee to Istanbul - incidentally Poltava is in the present Urkaine;

*    the attack by Napoleon of Russia in 1812 using 600  000 of which only 38 000 was left alive after fleeing from Russia and to the ienvitable fall of Napoleon's reign;

*    the attack on Russia by Hitler and the destruction of Germany in 1945 as a result.  The Germans were defeated because of their attack on Russia.  

Russia is such a huge country it is impossible to conquer it and the NATO army has not got even 500 000 soldiers to attack Russia with.   Any such attack would leave the way open to China to conquer Taiwan and South Korea and prepare for their attack on Australia,   The claim that sophisticated NATO armaments is much better than what Russia produced is the laugh of the century and has thus far been proved as BS  in the Ukraine war.

In any event Putin sent a Russian battleship to Cuba and statione d a nuclear powered sub-marine in that country as well.   Trump would decare that as an act of war - - the present idiot in the WH would only whimper and do nothing else.

There has been tens of thosuands of terrorists and trained soldiers that flooded into the USA through the open Mexican border that would turn the USA into a terrorist heaven and detroy the coutnry from within.

The only solution is that what Trump promised he would do and that is to send all the illegal migrants to their countries of origin and they can then apply for asylum in the USA while outside of the USA  and enter the country as legal asylum seakers..   

Firstly, to nip your straw man in the bud, I never suggested influencing people with the aim of getting them to risk their lives by, for example, attempting to assassinate Putin.

To nip your strawman I never said anything about assassinating Putin. I was thinking more on the lines of protests.

I was simply, and obviously, pointing out that Russia's population could be influenced so that Putin's opposition gained more support...which could ultimately lead to ending him.

Even if support for the opposition could be increased considerably, do you think Putin would just allow this opposition to just develop into a credible threat to him without taking action? Eventually there would have to be some form of confrontation between this opposition and the Putin regime and I can't see this confrontation occurring without the opposition and its supporters undertaking considerable risk to their own freedom and lives.

Now, an easy ChatGPT query has provided five EASY methods that a technologically capable West could have employed in order to achieve, or help to achieve, such...here they are.

note: Most Russians already use VPNs for the very reason that their internet isn't "free". So painting the Russian population as "internet isolated" is not accurate. I pointed this out to you guys two years ago. Google which countries use

No most Russian's do not already use VPN's. Its more like a quarter. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1307055/russia-vpn-usage-frequency/VPNs the most.

And I wasn't painting Russia as internet backwards. I pointed out the fact that a notable part of Putin's support base the elderly don't use the internet for their primary source of news, they get their news from the state run TV media. 

1. **Social Media Campaigns**: Develop and disseminate content that highlights the opposition's positive attributes, ideas, and plans. Use targeted advertising on platforms like Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter to reach specific demographics within the country, emphasizing stories of hope, change, and potential improvements under the opposition's leadership.

Facebook, Instagram and Twitter are banned in Russia.

2. **Influencer Collaboration**: Engage local influencers and popular social media personalities who can subtly promote the opposition's messages. These influencers can create content that resonates with their followers, creating a more organic and relatable advocacy for the opposition

Influencer collaboration? lol ffs, as if an anti Putin influencer isn't going earn himself a one way trip to a Russian prison.

3. **Misinformation and Counter-Misinformation**: Deploy strategies to counteract the regime's propaganda by spreading factual information that exposes the leader’s corruption, failures, and human rights abuses. At the same time, disseminate carefully crafted misinformation that weakens the regime's credibility and control over the narrative.

4. **Anonymous Leaks and Whistleblowing Platforms**: Establish secure, anonymous platforms where government insiders can leak information about the regime's malpractices without fear of retribution. Publicizing these leaks through social media can erode public trust in the leadership and rally support for the opposition.

5. **Digital Activism and Mobilization**: Create online communities and forums that provide a safe space for citizens to discuss their grievances and organize protests or campaigns in support of the opposition. Tools like encrypted messaging apps and private social media groups can help mobilize the population while maintaining a degree of safety from government surveillance.

All of this already exists and has so for many years. Most Russian's probably to some degree or another know what the Putin regime is like. But they choose not to confront it because they know what the consequences could be for doing so, they just keep their heads down and get on with their lives as best they can. 

These tactics, when executed effectively, can significantly influence public opinion and potentially aid in the opposition's rise to power."

I'm sure they can and have already been used in Russia by anti Putin campaigners to keep opposition to Putin alive and can play a role down the road, but you have yet to elaborate as to how the west propaganda campaign would significantly increase in getting the mass of the Russian population who are depoliticized to join those willing to oppose Putin. It's not that they don't know what's going on, its that they choose to look a way of out fear.

These are just a few very obvious tactics. Europe and the US, with all their think tanks and intelligence agencies would come up with far more/effective techniques if there was a will to do so. But there wasn't. 

Wasn't that there was no will, It's the focus was on the more immediate priority of ensuring Ukraine survival from a direct military attack by a larger neighbour.

The line was simply screw Putin, and screw Russia.

Disingenuous argument.

And let's go back to the what the OP made this thread for...the idea that the war could end if Putin was taken out within Russia.

Well we don't know for certain if it would.

So, again, similar to the lab leak hypothesis, the lefties find themselves incapable of thinking more broadly, at ALL the options. They simply wish to swallow the narrative and then pat themselves on the back, believing they are ever so virtuous.

Its nothing to do with lefties. Many on both the political left, centre and right support Ukraine's right to defend itself and none that I know have ruled out the use of a propaganda campaign, but none are pushing it as a primary way of ending the war.  You're the only person I've come across pushing it. In fact you're actually more inline with those on left who mindlessly blame and criticise the west for all the worlds problems. 

 tav

Nobody is favouring  negotiations to end the war basically promoted by the leftists seeing  it as a way they can control the USA in future.  You like other people are warmongers. as a result -in he end wanting a never-ensding war in the hope that something  will happen to get rid of Putin and the West will then instal a puppet Government in Russia and dismember the Russia  Federation.

Dream on - the Russians will not fall for that one.    

 tav

Nobody is favouring  negotiations to end the war basically promoted by the leftists seeing  it as a way they can control the USA in future.  You like other people are warmongers. as a result -in he end wanting a never-ensding war in the hope that something  will happen to get rid of Putin and the West will then instal a puppet Government in Russia and dismember the Russia  Federation.

Dream on - the Russians will not fall for that one.    

Let’s suppose Ukraine decides to negotiate on the terms Putin specified. A few years later Putin is highly likely  to invent another pretext for war, with the belief the West won’t make the same commitment again. 

Any deal negotiated with this man is worthless…..unless he is forced to negotiate from a position of weakness and China also guarantees the peace.

That’s a long way from happening. Yes it’s tragic, but if the Ukrainians want to go on fighting we should support them. There is only that or complete Russian domination with a few carve outs for propaganda reasons.

Nobody want  Ukraine undermined as a country and it will be if theya gree tothe Putin's alleged demands.   You obviouslym beleive the BS  of provokinbg a war.   Putin and the two suceeding Ukraine Presidents signed two  agreements - wh ich the Biden Administration undermined.

So how independent is the present Ukraine Government - they have repeaedly proved that they follow insrtructions from Washington and at present the country is not independent in the true sense of the word.

The USA Government does not want a peaceful ettlement in Ukraine - they have proved that repeatedlly since the Civil War started in Eastern Ukraine in 2014 when teh USA in the orm of Brennan of the CIA - who vsoted Ukraine 4 tmes in the period September 2013 and February 2014 and used CIA secret funds tof inanc the ressultant coup.

The Ukrainians does not want the war - even Zelenskyy campaigned on the bssis of finding a peaceful negotiated settlement in Eastern Ukraine.   He soon thereafter found out that he has no say in what was happening in Eastern Ukraine and after a visit by Senator Menendez in September 2019 stopped the crazy idea of a peaceful  settlement in Ukraine.   Aftrwards the Democrats in control of the  House and the Senate used US funding to control Ukraine totally.   So whatever the USA decided on issue would eb implmented by tjheir puppets in Kiev.

S o it is tragic that a US Government decide on whether there should be a continuous war in Ukraine and use a puppet Government in Kiev to destroy potential peace talks.     When Putin asked Biden in October 2021 in Geneva - Putin suggested a summit to discuss the Ukraine issue.   Since that was not part of Biden's ageda on the emeting - he promised that Blinken would amake arrangements for a summit and did nothing  about it.

Th e USA unfiortunately lost a lot of allies wh o fear that the USA would try the same type of thing in their countries.   Biden tore up he Abrhamatic Accords and that opened up th e waym for intensified wars in that area.    

He is playing  both sides in the Hamas-IsraelWar and destroyed the trust have of certain US support and they are now desperately fighting  for their survival while the USA are delayng arms delivery approved by Congress - that si whent eh Democraatic Party wanted elections in Israel so th eyc ould get rid of th e Israeli Government.

Now Mozart - the only chance of epaceful settlement in Ukraine would never h appen while the idiots are in charge in Washongton.   No negotiations with Biden on anything would work out psotsitively for the people of Ukraine o the USA.  

By the way Blinken was tod to bugger off from SA when he tried to get SA support for the war in Ukraine.   He was told that the war should enver have happened - but peaceful settlement through negotiation should end the war.   When a delegation of African leaders visited Ukraine to try and promote peace negotiations - the US G overnment isntructed Zelenskyy not to meet with them and the Ukraine official meeting them told the e Africa leaders they ahve no right to interfere with issues pevailing in Europe.

o try again th e Biden Government is an abomination and cause fo continuing fo the war in Ukraine.   

      ,            

"That’s a long way from happening. Yes it’s tragic, but if the Ukrainians want to go on fighting we should support them. There is only that or complete Russian domination with a few carve outs for propaganda reasons."

Indeed...but I believe the Russians can be forced to settle for an outcome more acceptable to Ukraine...proper economic preasure can achieve a lot.

Russia sells oil to the world. It’s a fungible commodity…hard to embargo. For the rest it’s very independent as a result of its Soviet Union roots. It’s very hard to pressure that kind of situation, as we have discovered. Right now there is fight on or give Putin a big win.

The Donald will solve this puzzle quick quick.

Indeed...but I believe the Russians can be forced to settle for an outcome more acceptable to Ukraine...proper economic preasure can achieve a lot.

You do realise if proper economic pressure where applied to Russia, the price of your beloved cheese would go up?

Yes I know that, but it will stabilize  quickly again after things get back to normal...or as close to normal as possible. 

"To nip your strawman I never said anything about assassinating Putin. I was thinking more on the lines of protests."

And I was simply pointing out that there is opposition to Putin in Russia and that it could be more supported. So not sure where your " risking their lives" narrative appeared from. Since I'm assuming Putin isn't slaughtering thousands of people daily for simply supporting...

"Even if support for the opposition could be increased considerably, do you think Putin would just allow this opposition to just develop into a credible threat to him without taking action? Eventually, there would have to be some form of confrontation between this opposition and the Putin regime and I can't see this confrontation occurring without the opposition and its supporters undertaking considerable risk to their own freedom and lives."

No, but see again "VPN usage in Russia". Also, once support reaches a breaking point, then it can become more public, as has occurred previously in similar situations, before the internet, private networks and encryption. Often successfully serving to remove despots.

By the way, official VPN usage stats in Russia show around 30%, with the real usage likely being somewhere between +20-50% higher...here are Ai's estimates of those figures.

"Gemini AI - The estimated number of unknown VPN users globally could be anywhere from 20-50% higher than reported figures. It's impossible to pinpoint an exact figure for Russia specifically due to the very nature of unknown users. However, given Russia's recent restrictions and the rise in VPN usage there, it's likely a significant portion of that 20-50% increase comes from Russian users." 

It's simply a case of a) the average Russian's situation and b) VPN's value proposition. So, I'm sticking with my assessment that most Russian internet users use VPNs.

"All of this already exists and has so for many years. Most Russian's probably to some degree or another know what the Putin regime is like. But they choose not to confront it because they know what the consequences could be for doing so, they just keep their heads down and get on with their lives as best they can. "

This is like saying that you can't cook food because someone has already put the stove on. 

If you're admitting that most Russians are "inwardly" averse to Putin, but afraid, then you're arguing for the case of mass propaganda, not against it. 

You argue that what I am suggesting has been ongoing as it stands, but I disagree that it may have occurred to any significant level. I've travelled a lot since that war started and all I see everywhere, and all the time, is support for Ukraine, with all of Russia being painted as evil, along with Putin.

Let's remember what I argued back then, and continue to argue today, which is a mass-scale propaganda effort to separate Russians from Putin. To put it into context, imagine Western politicians banging on the point that they know this war is not caused by 99% of Russians and that they also know that Russians are just like everybody else and want a peaceful life. 

It's just one small example, but combining the many means together, it's valid to assume one could sway Russia against Putin to a far larger degree than what is currently the case. Significantly so.

And again, perhaps it's no silver bullet, but at the very least, it would weaken Putin's position at the negotiating table.

And under all this is technology. China has TikTok, the US has EVERYTHING ELSE. 

" In fact you're actually more inline with those on left who mindlessly blame and criticise the west for all the worlds problems. "

I'm suggesting what I think is the fastest way to end this. And then asking the obvious question. If I'm spending $10 on a solution to a problem, versus $1,000, or $1,000,000, my strategy for mitigating potential waste would widen along with rising cost. I may be able to spend a fraction of $1,000,000 on alternative strategies to achieve the goal, and though it may be a gamble, it could end up mitigating swathes of waste.

To date the figure spent on the war by the West is $380,000,000,000.

$20,000,000,000 of that directed straight at Russian brains since the start of this war, and I feel Putin's position may have looked very different today.

And I don't think that any of this is groundbreaking wisdom or in any way outlandish. Here is an AI summary, along with links...

The West's approach to using propaganda against Vladimir Putin has faced significant criticism for its ineffectiveness in alienating him from the Russian populace. Instead of targeting Putin directly, Western narratives often painted Russia as a whole in a negative light, which has inadvertently galvanized support for Putin among Russians.

One key issue is the West's tendency to generalize and demonize all of Russia rather than focusing on the Kremlin's actions. This broad-brush approach has made it easier for Putin to rally nationalistic sentiments and portray the West as an adversary attacking Russian identity and sovereignty? (Lowy Institute)?? (Tony Blair Institute)?.

Additionally, Russian state-controlled media has been highly effective in shaping domestic narratives. By controlling the flow of information and promoting a narrative of Western aggression and Russian victimhood, the Kremlin has managed to maintain high levels of support for Putin and his policies. This is particularly evident in the widespread belief among Russians that the West, especially NATO, is responsible for the conflict in Ukraine, rather than Russia itself? (Global Voices)?? (Tony Blair Institute)?.

Efforts to counter Russian propaganda have also been hampered by the West's fragmented and often inconsistent messaging. The lack of a cohesive strategy has allowed Russian disinformation to thrive, especially in regions outside the Western sphere of influence, such as the Global South, where Russian narratives find more receptive audiences due to historical and geopolitical factors? (Security Praxis)?.

For a more effective approach, experts suggest that Western propaganda should focus more on the specific actions of Putin and the Kremlin, highlighting their negative impact on both Russians and the international community, rather than broadly criticizing Russia as a whole. This strategy could help to create a clearer distinction between the Russian government and its people, potentially reducing the unintended consequence of bolstering support for Putin among the Russian populace? (Lowy Institute)?? (Tony Blair Institute)?.

And I was simply pointing out that there is opposition to Putin in Russia and that it could be more supported. So not sure where your " risking their lives" narrative appeared from. Since I'm assuming Putin isn't slaughtering thousands of people daily for simply supporting...

One of the parties you listed People's Freedom Party was dissolved last year by the Russian courts. And the other parties number of elected representatives is tiny with Yabloko having 10 seats and the Libertarian party one seat in the regional parliaments out of 3,994 seats. As for Russia of the Future, we all know what happened to its leader Alexei Navalny.

Putin does allow a degree of political opposition. To him its important to give the impression that Russia is a democratic state and the people are free to choose their leader but its an illusion. The opposition parties are never allowed get to the point where they become a credible threat to his power.

Its interesting in the last Russia Presidentially election Boris Nadezhdin tried to run as the unofficially officially Kremlin approved opposition candidate. Nadezhdin for those of you who are not aware frequently appeared on Russian state TV shows as a panellist that discusses the war in Ukraine. Nadezhdin played the role as the designated dissenting voice (punching bag) on these shows in which he would put forward criticism of Russia's military campaign, even calling it a disaster and also calling for negotiations. After this all the other panellist would then roundly start shouting him down. 

I guess the Kremlin thought it would be a good idea to let this guy run against Putin, because it gave the illusion of someone running against Putin who was appeared to be offering a different viewpoint to that of the Kremlin but someone that wasn't very well known or charismatic and would only pick up very small levels of support. But Nadezhdin went a bit of script for them campaigning on a platform of ending the war in Ukraine via peace negotiations. This platform proved surprisingly popular, so much so that the Kremlin had to find away of getting him off the ballot paper, which they duly did by having the election commission reject his candidacy on the grounds that 5% of his the 100,000 signatures he obtained to support his candidacy where not legitimate.

And when it comes to how Putin deal with protests among the general public. Pre war he didn't have all the protesters arrested. But ringleaders would be an made example of. They would be arrested. Their family and friends could suddenly find themselves out of work, or unable to access their bank accounts or open new bank accounts. They would also find people would be following them around.

No, but see again "VPN usage in Russia". Also, once support reaches a breaking point, then it can become more public, as has occurred previously in similar situations, before the internet, private networks and encryption. Often successfully serving to remove despots.

By the way, official VPN usage stats in Russia show around 30%, with the real usage likely being somewhere between +20-50% higher...here are Ai's estimates of those figures.

That's still less that 50%, between 36% and 45%. And that's internet users. Its estimated there is about 100 million internet users in Russia, out of population of 144 million.

"Gemini AI - The estimated number of unknown VPN users globally could be anywhere from 20-50% higher than reported figures. It's impossible to pinpoint an exact figure for Russia specifically due to the very nature of unknown users. However, given Russia's recent restrictions and the rise in VPN usage there, it's likely a significant portion of that 20-50% increase comes from Russian users." 

That AI answer doesn't indicate there was a global increase in VPN usage. So I assume that's just their estimate on what unreported VPN usage is globally.

It's simply a case of a) the average Russian's situation and b) VPN's value proposition. So, I'm sticking with my assessment that most Russian internet users use VPNs.

Now I've no doubt Russian VPN usage has gone up significantly since the start of the war in Ukraine and Russia placing restrictions on net access but you haven't provided evidence that over 50% of Russian internet users use VPN's let alone over 50% of the Russian population.

This is like saying that you can't cook food because someone has already put the stove on. 

If you're admitting that most Russians are "inwardly" averse to Putin, but afraid, then you're arguing for the case of mass propaganda, not against it. 

There is fundamentally a difference between Russia's propaganda against its own people and the West projecting propaganda into Russia. The Russian propaganda campaign to depoliticize its population has been ongoing decades unopposed and it follows decades long Soviet propaganda that portrayed the west as the enemy. It's not just online but also backed by traditional media controlled by the state, such as TV news and newspapers and also is pushed into the Russian system education and the church in Russia is another projector of it. But most importantly of all, their can be very harsh consequences in opposing the Putin regime. 

The west really can only project propaganda in from the internet, and while that's a very significant tool, they would have to overcome decades of Russian propaganda and Russia's attempt to hinder such a campaign to eventually get people to put their own necks on the line.

You argue that what I am suggesting has been ongoing as it stands, but I disagree that it may have occurred to any significant level. I've travelled a lot since that war started and all I see everywhere, and all the time, is support for Ukraine, with all of Russia being painted as evil, along with Putin.

You have travelled a lot...what in Russia?

I do see a lot of support for Ukraine, but as for Russia and Putin being portrayed as evil you sometimes have to be careful here as people use Putin/Russian interchangeable. Some people may hold the view that its just Putin and his supporters that are to blame but when talking about the war will just refer to Russia out of convivence. I don't really have any issues with people calling Putin evil, or the Russian's who support Putin as evil and certainly the blame for this war lies with Putin. I'm sure their are some who view the whole of Russia as evil but is that the fault of the media reporting on the Russian armies crimes in Ukraine or the Russia state itself.

Let's remember what I argued back then, and continue to argue today, which is a mass-scale propaganda effort to separate Russians from Putin. To put it into context, imagine Western politicians banging on the point that they know this war is not caused by 99% of Russians and that they also know that Russians are just like everybody else and want a peaceful life. 

It's just one small example, but combining the many means together, it's valid to assume one could sway Russia against Putin to a far larger degree than what is currently the case. Significantly so.

Again a Western propaganda has to overcome decades of Russian propaganda and Russia's own counter propaganda narratives, backed by serious repressive measures. I don't believe for a second that a larger propaganda campaign would have made a significant difference in getting more people in Russia to oppose Putin by now. 

And again, perhaps it's no silver bullet, but at the very least, it would weaken Putin's position at the negotiating table.

It's not that it doesn't have a role but its most certainly not a silver bullet. 

And under all this is technology. China has TikTok, the US has EVERYTHING ELSE. 

The Russian's have Telegram, prisons and Novichok.

I'm suggesting what I think is the fastest way to end this. And then asking the obvious question. If I'm spending $10 on a solution to a problem, versus $1,000, or $1,000,000, my strategy for mitigating potential waste would widen along with rising cost. I may be able to spend a fraction of $1,000,000 on alternative strategies to achieve the goal, and though it may be a gamble, it could end up mitigating swathes of waste.

To date the figure spent on the war by the West is $380,000,000,000.

$20,000,000,000 of that directed straight at Russian brains since the start of this war, and I feel Putin's position may have looked very different today.

It's fine if you want to say you believe a propaganda campaign is the fastest way of ending the war. Just don't scoff at or attack the lefties or anyone else who doesn't agree with you of following a narrative on something which you now admit may not be a silver bullet

Giving the difficulties that Ukraine found themselves in when the $60 billion US add package was delayed, removing another $20 billion in direct aid to Ukraine would have made the situation even more difficult for Ukraine. More territory and lives would have been lost. 

And I don't think that any of this is groundbreaking wisdom or in any way outlandish. Here is an AI summary, along with links...

I'm not a fan of this looking up A.I answers. What A.I tool did you use and what question did you ask it? According to perplexity A.I for for example I'm a strong Pro Trump and Pro Russian supporter 

The West's approach to using propaganda against Vladimir Putin has faced significant criticism for its ineffectiveness in alienating him from the Russian populace. Instead of targeting Putin directly, Western narratives often painted Russia as a whole in a negative light, which has inadvertently galvanized support for Putin among Russians.

One key issue is the West's tendency to generalize and demonize all of Russia rather than focusing on the Kremlin's actions. This broad-brush approach has made it easier for Putin to rally nationalistic sentiments and portray the West as an adversary attacking Russian identity and sovereignty?

None of the articles the A.I linked to actually said that. Nor do the articles suggest that a larger propaganda campaign would have made a difference by now.  Also find it amusing that after being critical of lefties, you have no issue with using the Tony Blair Institute as a source to try to back up what your saying.

My view on the war is simply this. Ukraine should be given all the means it needs to reclaim all its lost territory and the decision of weather to fight on or negotiate should be down to Ukraine. A propaganda campaign against Russia is useful, it could aid in ending the war quicker but it needs to happen in conjunction with other things, such as the Russian standard of living dropping, the number of dead Russian soldier becoming too large to hide etc. The Russian's have to get to the point where the feel doing something in opposing Putin is less risky than doing nothing. We don't appear to be close to that point. 

Stav

Have you ever been to Russia and have you spoken to any Russians on the score  of the Ukraine issue?   D id you get most of your contributions from Th Guardian or other ultra-leftist media rags?

I do not know what the real political issues are in Russia at resent is?   I do not know that I know what I really is - but one problem in Russia is a huge country and the distances are very big.   That makes it very difficult to get national election candidates from the Russian Federation.   The main situation is thats ome of the opposition parties are regional in nature and they control some of the Russian Federaion states - but have little impact on national level,

There are only two really national parties left in  Rusia and those are the AL Russia Party who are in alliance with some regional parties and the Communist Party who are even more hawkish  on the Ukraqine issue than Putin is.

The people you mentioned has very little impact on national level.  When an individual try to run as a candidate is impact is mostly local and tog et 100 000 signatures is meaningless in a national context.   Any audit of signatories are always necessary in any country where individuals try and register - like the case mentioned - the identity of such signataries are carefully checked - like they also do in the USA where candidates were eliminated for the same reasons you accuse Russia of doing.  The normal process is the signatures required are falsified and potential candidates on national level is eliminated.   The Democrats tried to eliminate Kennedy from running as Presidential candidate and undermined his candidature in certain States by using the same system you accuse the Russians of doing.

So elimination of candidates under such circumsatnces are not confined to Russia only.   .