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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  NY Times finally admits….masks don’t work outside the lab

NY Times finally admits….masks don’t work outside the lab

Started by Mozart33 REPLIES849 VIEWS· 31 May 2022, 15:52
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 May 2022, 15:52
#1
31 May 2022, 15:52#1

So far, a lot of discussion has focused on mask mandates. Schools in Philadelphia; Providence, R.I.; Berkeley, Calif.; and Brookline, Mass., have reimposed theirs, as have several colleges. Elsewhere, some people are frustrated that officials, like New York City’s mayor, Eric Adams, have not done so.

Critics have accused these leaders of a lack of political courage, saying that they are yielding to Covid fatigue rather than imposing necessary public health measures. But I think that the criticism misreads both the history of public health and the recent scientific evidence about mask mandates.

The evidence suggests that broad mask mandates have not done much to reduce Covid caseloads over the past two years. Today, mask rules may do even less than in the past, given the contagiousness of current versions of the virus. And successful public health campaigns rarely involve a divisive fight over a measure unlikely to make a big difference.

The evidence

From the beginning of the pandemic, there has been a paradox involving masks. As Dr. Shira Doron, an epidemiologist at Tufts Medical Center, puts it, “It is simultaneously true that masks work and mask mandates do not work.”

To start with the first half of the paradox: Masks reduce the spread of the Covid virus by preventing virus particles from traveling from one person’s nose or mouth into the air and infecting another person. Laboratory studies have repeatedly demonstrated the effect.

Given this, you would think that communities where mask-wearing has been more common would have had many fewer Covid infections. But that hasn’t been the case.

In U.S. cities where mask use has been more common, Covid has spread at a similar rate as in mask-resistant cities. Mask mandates in schools also seem to have done little to reduce the spread. Hong Kong, despite almost universal mask-wearing, recently endured one of the world’s worst Covid outbreaks.

Advocates of mandates sometimes argue that they do have a big effect even if it is not evident in populationwide data, because of how many other factors are at play. But this argument seems unpersuasive.

After all, the effect of vaccines on severe illness is blazingly obvious in the geographic data: Places with higher vaccination rates have suffered many fewer Covid deaths. The patterns are clear even though the world is a messy place, with many factors other than vaccines influencing Covid death rates.

Yet when you look at the data on mask-wearing — both before vaccines were available and after, as well as both in the U.S. and abroad — you struggle to see any patterns.

Almost 30 percent

The idea that masks work better than mask mandates seems to defy logic. It inverts a notion connected to Aristotle’s writings: that the whole should be greater than the sum of the parts, not less.

The main explanation seems to be that the exceptions often end up mattering more than the rule. The Covid virus is so contagious that it can spread during brief times when people take off their masks, even when a mandate is in place.

Airplane passengers remove their masks to have a drink. Restaurant patrons go maskless as soon as they walk in the door. Schoolchildren let their masks slide down their faces. So do adults: Research by the University of Minnesota suggests that between 25 percent and 30 percent of Americans consistently wear their masks below their nose.

“Even though masks work, getting millions of people to wear them, and wear them consistently and properly, is a far greater challenge,” Steven Salzberg, a biostatistician at Johns Hopkins University, has written. Part of the problem, Salzberg explains, is that the most effective masks also tend to be less comfortable. They cover a larger part of a person’s face, fit more snugly and restrict the flow of more air particles.

During an acute crisis — such as the early months of Covid, when masks were one of the few available forms of protection — strict guidelines can nonetheless make sense. Public health officials can urge people to wear tightfitting, high-quality masks and almost never take them off in public. If the mandate has even a modest benefit, it can be worth it.

But this approach is not sustainable for years on end. Masks hinder communication, fog glasses and can be uncomfortable. There is a reason that children and airline passengers have broken out in applause when told they can take off their masks.

In the current stage of the pandemic, there are less divisive measures that are more effective than mask mandates. Booster shots are widely available. A drug that can further protect the immunocompromised, known as Evusheld, is increasingly available. So are post-infection treatments, like Paxlovid, that make Covid less severe.

(For young children, who are not yet eligible for the vaccine, Covid is overwhelmingly mild, similar in severity to the flu.)

Continuing to expand access to these treatments can do more to reduce Covid hospitalizations and deaths than any mask rule probably would. “People have the wherewithal to protect themselves,” Dr. Robert Wachter, chair of the medicine department at the University of California, San Francisco, told me. Absent a much larger surge in Covid hospitalizations, he added, the case for mandates is weaker than it used to be.

Dr. Aaron Carroll, the chief health officer of Indiana University, recently wrote for The Times’s Opinion section: “Instead of continuing to bicker about things that have become hopelessly politicized like mask mandates, those in public health could focus on efforts that might make much more of a difference.”

The available data also suggests that more than half of Americans have had Covid in the past six months, making many of them unlikely to contract it again now. As Jennifer Nuzzo, an epidemiologist at Brown University, told Vox: “Many of the people who are not wearing masks have already had Covid, so they’re like, ‘I’ve been vaccinated, I already had it — how much longer do you want me to do this for?’ And it’s kind of hard to say, ‘No, you absolutely must wear it.’”

One-way masking

The country is probably never going to come to a consensus on masks. They have become yet another source of political polarization. Democrats are more likely to wear masks than Republicans, and Democrats who identify as “very liberal” are more likely to support mandates.

Fortunately, the scientific evidence points to a reasonable compromise. Because masks work and mandates often don’t, people can make their own decisions. Anybody who wants to wear a snug, high-quality mask can do so and will be less likely to contract Covid.

If anything, that approach — one-way masking — is consistent with what hospitals have long done, as Doron, the Tufts epidemiologist, points out. Patients, including those sick with infectious diseases, typically have not worn masks, but doctors and nurses have. “One-way masking is how we have always used them,” she wrote.

The same system can work for Covid outside of hospitals. Wachter, for example, believes that the time for mandates has passed but still wears one at the supermarket, in classrooms, on airplanes and elsewhere. Different people can reasonably make different choices.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 May 2022, 16:39
#2
31 May 2022, 16:39#2

It was patently obvious…..there was huge motivation to prove masks work. The whole establishment wanted this device to be an answer. A visible sign of controlling the great unwashed.

But study after study turned up inconclusive results. When researchers want to prove something and they can’t you can be pretty confident it’s not provable.


Why do masks work. The author being from the NYT suggests cheating and poor use…it’s really our fault, not the wait for it..SCIENCE.

But if masks capture the virus….is air passing over the mask surface, that escapes, more heavily loaded with the virus? There has to be build up inside the mask. There are many possible ways masks don’t work as they do in the lab. That’s why you do large sample comparison tests.


And those tests simply don’t prove masks work….the same approach with vaccines show a strong correlation between outcomes and taking the vaccines. I’m not denying there are people like Plum who have had side effects. But I’m guessing if you are in a high risk group the risk of side effects does not outweigh the risk of serious illness.


BE
becsPro4,378 posts
31 May 2022, 16:53
#3
31 May 2022, 16:53#3

I had bad side effects to all three of my jabs….I won’t be having a fourth. 

The idea that masks don’t work is an interesting one and not the only thing about this pandemic that does not make sense ! 

DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
31 May 2022, 17:10
#4
31 May 2022, 17:10#4

"But I’m guessing if you are in a high risk group the risk of side effects does not outweigh the risk of serious illness"

Spot on..... unfortunately some people only realize that they were high risk..... when it is far too late

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,202 posts
31 May 2022, 17:59
#5
31 May 2022, 17:59#5

Masks do work.
If everyone had used surgical grade masks, it would have been far more effective than the shit that most people used. 

An n95 mask is 95% effective and is what surgical doctors use.

Something that is bought on eBay maybe 5% effective. (at stopping you infect others),
while it is totally useless at protecting you from getting Covid. 

I was one of the 1st people to use surgical grade masks where I live in local supermarkets but eventually, more and more people opted for this (when masks were required),
and I have never had Covid "yet" - in one of the most infected countries in the world. (for the last 2+ years)

If you sneeze into a handkerchief, it would stop "some" of the flu or cold virus from going airborne. So it must do the same with proper medical-grade masks. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 May 2022, 20:30
#6
31 May 2022, 20:30#6

No they don’t….you are just citing anecdotal evidence. There have been major studies of mask populations, with proper statistical procedures. They don’t work in practice ….every researcher wanted his results to be positive, there would have been huge career benefits.


The fact that the NYT admits they don’t work is like the Vatican saying confession doesn’t work.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
31 May 2022, 20:41
#7
31 May 2022, 20:41#7

"But I’m guessing if you are in a high risk group the risk of side effects does not outweigh the risk of serious illness"

Spot on..... unfortunately some people only realize that they were high risk.....when it is far too late"

Some of us actually had covid and have a better idea of what to expect than those who did not. Covid visited my home 4 tomes already...I  had it once, my wife twice and my 2 youngest boys twice too. My eldest lad never even had a whiff of a symptom...I'm well aware of my risk...This has been blown out of proportion since day 1.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
31 May 2022, 21:40
#8
31 May 2022, 21:40#8

It's only very stupid people who think masks don't work.

Even a person of below average intelligence should understand that the droplets/matter expelled when a person coughs or sneezes will travel a shorter distance if the person is wearing a mask than if the person wasn't wearing one . . . therefore masks DO work!

If you disagree then you are . . . ummm . . . stupid!

Stupid people cannot get beyond the rather simple fact that people wear masks to protect the people around them rather than to protect themselves so they're forever droning on about how droplets, germs or viruses can still get through the holes in mask . . . but because they're stupid they keep on missing the point. Yes, the virus might well slip through the mask and get into the mask-wearer's system but none of that changes the rather basic and obvious fact that masks do limit the disatnce that droplets from a person who is coughing or sneezing travel , therefore masks do work and only a stupid person (like Moffie here) would disagree.

DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
01 Jun 2022, 09:17
#9
01 Jun 2022, 09:17#9

"Some of us actually had covid and have a better idea of what to expect than those who did not. Covid visited my home 4 tomes already...I  had it once, my wife twice and my 2 youngest boys twice too. My eldest lad never even had a whiff of a symptom...I'm well aware of my risk...This has been blown out of proportion since day 1"

I am not saying you weren't aware of your risk.... some people are, in fact many.

However, you were only made aware of your personal risk after you had already contracted Covid, and fortunately got through it without any major complications.... but you would not have been able to say the same thing if you ended up on a ventilator or lost your life to it.

A lot of people who have contracted Covid, thought that they would just walk through it without any issues at all....

And they died thinking this way....

I know, because I have personally lost 2 friends because of them thinking it would be a breeze.......

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,202 posts
01 Jun 2022, 11:00
#10
01 Jun 2022, 11:00#10

If you want advice about a car, speak to a mechanic. Dont ask your barber.

The New York times know as much as any of us about masks. Leave this to the experts. (e.g. doctors and scientists). 

Sure a mechanic might not be right 100% of the time, but they will be right more than someone with little to no knowledge of cars. 

Let a surgical doctor explain why he/she wears a surgical mask when performing operations. 
Medical grade masks cant be compared to eBay masks

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
01 Jun 2022, 11:34
#11
01 Jun 2022, 11:34#11

DA, I got covid about 2 weeks before vaccines were rolled out for my age group. I never got to make a choice for or against the vaccine, but I know there are definite immediate risks involved with getting vaccinated, and the long term risks aren't even known yet...I won't ever discourage someone of getting it, but I think it's unfair to force people to get vaccinated, especially in lieu of the risks involved...and I think it's bordering on criminal neglect not to inform people of these risks...any mention of these side effects are laughed off as fake news.

I'm lucky I suppose, but I know more people with serious side effects from the vaccine than people with serious side effects from having Covid...in fact, none of the people I know were seriously ill from covid...same apply to this forum...Plum and Becks have got health issues as a result of the jabs, but I'm not aware of anyone else having serious issues as a direct result of Covid... anecdotal I know, but that's all I have to go on ATM.

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
01 Jun 2022, 11:44
#12
01 Jun 2022, 11:44#12
Viskop I’ll simply ask one question and let’s see if you’re able to take the rest to a logical conclusion. Can you state the type/kind/variety of mask that was mandated where you live?
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
01 Jun 2022, 12:43
#13
01 Jun 2022, 12:43#13

"but I think it's unfair to force people to get vaccinated, especially in lieu of the risks involved"

I 100% agree with you on this

"Some of us actually had covid and have a better idea of what to expect than those who did not"

As I said, you never initially knew what to expect from Covid, and how it would affect you personally, or any of your family members either.... until you actually contracted Covid....... so your body's reaction to having contracted Covid, had nothing at all to do with your prevention of getting it to begin with...

Put it this way, like millions of people already around the world, when you initially contracted Covid for the first time, you could just as easily have died from Covid.... and thankfully you didn't, nor did anyone in your family, thank goodness....... but there are now literally millions of other people out there in the world who also only contracted Covid once, and for the first time, just like you did..... only their first time, was enough to kill them.

DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
01 Jun 2022, 12:49
#14
01 Jun 2022, 12:49#14

"any mention of these side effects are laughed off as fake news"

Which is stupid, because I also have side effects from having my vaccine last year

Fortunately nothing very serious, so I fully agree that this should not be laughed at, at all

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
01 Jun 2022, 12:54
#15
01 Jun 2022, 12:54#15

Ja DA, I'm lucky even the people I know with side effects are lucky in that those side effects are also rather mild...I'm just glad that this thing is almost something of the past...the knocks to the economy however are going to linger for years to come...that had a much bigger impact on my life than what covid could throw at me.

MP
MpowerPro5,061 posts
01 Jun 2022, 13:40
#16
01 Jun 2022, 13:40#16

This Vaccine is not properly tested...and the Millions of people that took it, are the actual test trials....as far as I know, pls correct me if I am wrong, but FDA usually  have a test period of 3 - 5 Years before it can be approved for Human consumption....but as we all know that it was hardly 2 years and they started injecting people? How can they just bend the rule that quick???.....these so called numbers of the Governments are not to be trusted....wearing a mask is very unhealthy as our bodies shed carbon monoxide constantly ....so you might as well put your mouth over a running car exhaust and suck.

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,202 posts
01 Jun 2022, 14:15
#17
01 Jun 2022, 14:15#17

ButtPlug as you know "any" mask was allowed to be used, when masks were mandatory

This was a monumental screw up by governments, and the health department across various countries

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,202 posts
01 Jun 2022, 14:17
#18
01 Jun 2022, 14:17#18
Someone that I went to school with died with Covid in SA. I saw the tribute on Facebook. Over 2 million in the UK suffer from long Covid, and it is not clear if it is permanent Covid.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jun 2022, 14:48
#19
01 Jun 2022, 14:48#19

Actually The NY Times was not trying to reach medical conclusions….it was merely summarizing the studies that have been conducted….by experts. Spot the difference.


And we all know masks are a barrier. But an imperfect barrier that becomes even more imperfect with usage. The only way to verify they actually make a difference is to test a masked population vs an unmasked population….in the same environment.


What the NYT is saying is in the large scale studies to test this, there has been no statistical difference in the Covid incidence in masked or unmasked populations.


Only truly stupid people like Peeper can’t understand the basics of the scientific method.

DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
01 Jun 2022, 15:40
#20
01 Jun 2022, 15:40#20

"but FDA usually  have a test period of 3 - 5 Years before it can be approved for Human consumption"

Even if this were to be true, imagine there was a new virus next year that 100% immediately killed anyone who came into contact with it, and it was also 1000% times more contagious than Covid.....

I guarantee you that lot of people who are still questioning this 3 - 5 years testing phase would beg for that tested but unapproved vaccine....

MP
MpowerPro5,061 posts
01 Jun 2022, 18:29
#21
01 Jun 2022, 18:29#21

DA that is correct, but the amount of Fear mongering that has been done by the Government and Media plays a big role in creating absolute chaos....Vaccines in general is good and helps when the proper protocols are followed....no serious side effects or death in the participants is a must....anything else is just not good enough or acceptable.....in 2021 I worked for a medical Research company called Epicenter. We did the NCAS - National Covid Antibody survey where blood samples were Collected and tested by National institute of Communeable diseases. The results showed that people did build there own antibodies against the Virus without taking a Vaccine.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
01 Jun 2022, 19:38
#22
01 Jun 2022, 19:38#22

Point being, the disease wasn't dangerous enough to risk throwing normal safety protocols overboard...and then mandating it's use AND indemnifies the suppliers against claims for damages if things go wrong????

Why is identification needid if they're so sure everything is so safe? This whole thing stinks!


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Jun 2022, 00:36
#23
02 Jun 2022, 00:36#23

Draad having dealt a lot with corporate lawsuits in the States, the truth is not necessarily conclusive. Take these baby powder suits against J&J. The overwhelming weight of scientific evidence points to no causality. But all you have to have is one aberrant Jury that makes a big award to throw the cat amongst the pigeons.


Faced with an award like that and the possibility of even larger copy cat awards..  many Boards decide to settle. To reduce the whole mess to a tangible amount and get on with the company’s business.


That’s why the indemnities are important, particularly  in an area like vaccination. Believe it or not these companies believe in the vaccines, the directors take the vaccines as do the senior employees….they give them to their families. And in this case the weight of scientific evidence is they have saved many lives.


Whether the tactics to pressure mask use are supportable is a different issue….and one where I am still undecided.

DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
02 Jun 2022, 08:52
#24
02 Jun 2022, 08:52#24
That line in the sand that most people won't or don't want to cross..... is far too often shifted or moved, when potential death of oneself or someone you love is involved
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,202 posts
02 Jun 2022, 16:46
#25
02 Jun 2022, 16:46#25

If social distancing and masks do not work, why are flu and colds at their lowest levels seen? 

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
02 Jun 2022, 20:49
#26
02 Jun 2022, 20:49#26

It obviously works better for colds and flu than for covid ...but the long term effects can make your immune system lazy. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
05 Jun 2022, 18:06
#27
05 Jun 2022, 18:06#27

Nobody said social distancing doesn’t work. Obviously there is a distance at which the disease is eliminated. There has been far less human to human contact in the last 2 years. By itself that would explain the flu decrease.

Logic suggests masks should help….even if worn imperfectly. But  if there is some benefit, even a partial benefit, the studies would have picked that up. They haven’t despite best efforts to provide proof. 


PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
06 Jun 2022, 10:01
#28
06 Jun 2022, 10:01#28
Yes, VisKop …and to date, have any governments amended their policy as to the type of mask that is to be used? If they haven’t, and provided the results from many studies to date…why do you think that is? Perhaps it’s because the only purpose of the masks is to serve as mini billboards to remind us all that Covid is still around. PS Phizer made $34b profit thus far in 2022. The majority of it coming from Covid jabs and pills. And here’s a little note to add on… The Bilderburg meeting was this weekend; “Naturally, the heads of the CIA, National Security Council, Department of Commerce, NATO, European Council, Pfizer, Shell, Palantir, and so forth are merely taking part in their private, personal capacity”
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,202 posts
06 Jun 2022, 11:09
#29
06 Jun 2022, 11:09#29

So ButtPlug, countries from all over the world are part of the conspiracy. A coordinated effort to force everyone to use masks, even though they know they don't work. 

Pfizer deserve every penny they have earnt. They were the first vaccine to be used widely around the world and have saved millions of deaths. 

Masks are no longer mandatory, so it does not really matter now about the quality of masks. 
It is now up to the person to wear a mask or not. 

I am not sure why private companies would be involved in this meeting, but oil and vaccine are critical at the moment, given the energy crisis and Covid still lingering around in the West. 

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
06 Jun 2022, 22:00
#30
06 Jun 2022, 22:00#30
These, by the way, are not typos or autocorrects… “Pfizer deserve every penny they have “earnt”. They were the first vaccine to be used widely around the world and have saved millions of deaths(saving deaths…you sure?). “ Dunno where you earnt you the right to pick on typos and autocorrects when you don’t know that it’s save lives and prevent deaths? The numpty is strong with this one.
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,202 posts
06 Jun 2022, 23:13
#31
06 Jun 2022, 23:13#31

ButtPlug, Butplug... I noticed that when I wrote it, but it was obvious I meant to prevent millions of deaths, so I left it as is. 

The vaccine did prevent millions of deaths...

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
06 Jun 2022, 23:38
#32
06 Jun 2022, 23:38#32
Oh, i was just about to continue feeling embarrassed for you
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
07 Jun 2022, 04:12
#33
07 Jun 2022, 04:12#33

T'was the extension of the spiral sprig....

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
09 Jun 2022, 21:42
#34
09 Jun 2022, 21:42#34

 

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