Peace talks between Russia and Ukraine

Apparently the peace talks in Istanbul is making progress.   Progress is only made because of the fact that the USA representatives are not involved and Biden is kept under control - his last two statements could start WW3 - so he is being confined to his Delaware home from tomorrow - the man is a raving imbecile.

Part of the agreement was that the Russians had already withdrawn their troops that threatened Kiev and Chernicov - and has completed their mission in Eastern  and Southern Ukraine - ie the Donbas Region.   Despite the propaganda swallowed up by site idiots the Russian objective was never to annex Ukraine and makes it part of the new enlarged Soviet union - or some other birdbrain objectives plastered over the site.   

Their objective always was to liberate the Russi an population in the Donbas Region from oppression by the Kiev Government and that objective has been largely achieved.         

You are not part of Western society. With the change that is happening at the moment, you are surplus to requirements. We do not need you.

You can remain in the darkness of Africa, or go move to Russia and live with the religious simpletons that make up their poor per capita earnings (not 1st world). 

Mike still parroting Russian disinformation.

The withdrawal from Kiyv appears to be just a planned troop rotation by Russia and the Russian's are trying to spin it as de-escalation.  And the Russians continue to pound Chernihiv with artillery with no let up.

The Russians do appear to be scaling back operations to one axis of advance at a time because anymore than that seems beyond their capabilities. Might have something to do with the Russian's having 2087 military vehicles lost, either destroyed, damaged, abandoned or captured.

This site lists the losses of all military vehicles on both sides. It only adds them if the vehicle loss is verified with photographic evidence. So actual losses are probably considerably higher.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

It all gives credibility to the claim going around that Ukraine now has more military vehicles now after a month of fighting than it did at the start of the war with it actually been able to capture more vehicles than it lost in combat.

At the end of the day though their will likely be some agreement that's more favourable to the Russian than the Ukrainian and the Ukrainian's may have to give up some additional territory. However the West doesn't have to accept any agreement the Russian's force on the Ukrainan's at gunpoint so all sanctions should remain in place until Russia troops vacate the entirety of Ukraine and return it to the 2014 borders, Crimea included. If Crimea truly wants to be part of Russia, it should be allowed vote to do so in a referendum that's monitor by international observers and deemed fair and free. 

The status of Crimea is settled for Russia, and Moscow will not discuss the issue with Ukraine or any other party, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told journalists on Wednesday. He was commenting on the outcome of peace talks in Turkey. 

Kiev’s proposals for a settlement apparently include a pledge to resolve the territorial dispute over the peninsula within 15 years without the use of force.

“Crimea is part of the Russian Federation. According to our constitution, we cannot discuss with anyone the fates of Russian territories, the fates of Russian regions. That is out of the question,” the official said.

Crimea voted to rejoin Russia in 2014, in a disputed referendum, after a violent Western-backed coup in Kiev overthrew the Ukrainian government. Kiev claims the vote was illegitimate and now refers to Crimea as temporarily occupied Ukrainian territory. Ukrainian officials have said that under no circumstances will they drop the claim over the region.

Crimea was part of Russia until 1954, when the Soviet government transferred it to Kiev's control, while both countries were part of a union state. 

During the peace talks in Istanbul on Tuesday, the Ukrainian delegation delivered to Russia a written proposal for how the armed conflict between the two nations could be resolved. According to Moscow, Ukraine said it was ready to pledge to remain a neutral nation and not to host foreign troops on its soil. Kiev said that in exchange, it wants NATO-like security guarantees from leading world powers, including Russia.

Russia’s top negotiator, Vladimir Medinsky, said that Ukraine is seeking to include “parts” of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions in the definition of its territory for the purpose of security guarantees, and stressed that Ukraine’s proposals will not necessarily be part of the final document. Moscow recognized the Donbass republics as independent states in February.

Peskov said Russia’s top negotiator is due to make additional public statements later in the day about the progress made, which the Russian government considers promising, but still modest.

Yes, the West has been united by Putin.

It has reminded the West why NATO was formed against authoritarianism in the first place, and what it means to be Democratic.

The West has been going a bit backward in terms of Democracy over the last 20 years or so, but this could be a push needed to progress again in the 21st century.

The social side of Democracy is great, but the economy needs to become as fair.
(Like ensuring the richest people pay the same % of their income as the middle class).
The richest pay less than 1% income tax, whereas everyone else is like 20%.
Corporates pay little to no corporate tax, while the SMB must pay the full amount...

Also, to prevent monopolies wherever possible, and ensure wealth is spread out over an industry instead of in a few people's hands. 

The only logical reason the tax system is like it is, the rich have bribed politicians through lobbyists to shaft the majority. 

I do not believe media BS and propaganda.   I followed the map of occupation of areas provided in the  media  and the stories of the brainwashed idiots were clearly based on propaganda and not  on fact.

The areas where Russian speaking residents predominate were occupied by Russian troops and they did bomb strategic institutions in some cities - but did not use land troops for attacks outside of the  Russian speaking areas.   There is no indication that an occupation of W#estern Ukraine was ever on the agenda.   

Russia claimed that the attack was launched to protect Russian speaking people from oppression by the Ukraine Government - a claim the media claimed  was false.   But was it?   The Ukraine Government had Russian speaking Ukrainian members of Parliament arrested and jailed - even though their parties voted with the Ukraine Government  Party against any Russian Invasion.   There reason for arrest relates apparently entails opposition to the proposal of the Ukraine Government to ban teaching of Russian in all Ukraine schools.    How do the brainwashed  explain those two factual problems? 

Another fact is that the Ukraine Government now has banned all Opposition Parties in Ukraine effectively making it a one-party dictatorship.   All quiet in the Western media on that one too.   In any event the 2014 power takeover was totally against the Ukraine constitution and let to a civil war in the Donbas Region that despite some agreement on an armistice that did not prevent subsequent attacks in the Donbas area.    

Anything covering the above is banned in the western media - but is still covered by investigating journalists  and conformed by those investigators operating in the USA.   One need not look at anything sounding like Russia propaganda to work out the  real situation in the country and separate fact from propaganda.   

Then we have he BS about the WW2 situation as to Ukraine.   The Ukrainians hated the Russians under Stalin for state starving of  Ukraine  killing circa 5 million people in the 1930's and according to the Stav story became a major part of the Russian army fighting the Germans.  Sure there were 3,1 million 17 to 19 years -olds forced into the army and untrained by the Russian army they were thrust into fighting the invading Germans.  Of the 3,1 million youngsters only 3% survived the original attack by the Germans.  So murder by Stalin resulted in circa 8 million people of Ukraine.   Another  3 million people Tartars were sent by Stalin to the Siberia in the 1930's and 1940's of which only 200 000 ultimately survived.   So goodbye to 11 million people from Ukraine and Crimea murdered by the  Communist Regime in a period of 15 years.   

So the Ukraine population supported the Red Army to the extent that thy made up 40% of the Red Army towards the end of the war..    Mozart wrote the same garbage about Ukraine in WW2 and hide the real facts from people - claiming that his main story came from  Brittanica.  He claimed  that the population dropped by 5 million  during the war .- which may be true if the figures killed in the war when serving the Red Army and the sending of Tartars (3,3 million)  were borne in mind.    Until 2001 when the first real census was done in Ukraine the country never had more than 37,5 million residents if the areas after 2014 not governed by the Ukraine Government is borne in mind..    In fact the population decline in Ukraine leads to a loss in population  of circa 300 000 per year caused by emigration, alcoholism, poor health services  and declining birth rates compared to a low life expectancy and higher death rate. 

I have almost read near to as much BS as Stav came up with about the Ukrainians in WW2 as he is coming  up with now.   The Russian army has been defeated according to him and withdrawal is due to that defeat.   Crimea will NEVER be part of Ukraine again - it never should have been in the first case.   It was a manipulation of the Communist regime to neutralize the impact of the Ukrainian speaking population and the area was never in the history ever part of Ukraine.   With the coup in Ukraine in 2014 - the Crimean Parliament voted to leave the Ukraine under an unconstitutional Government supported by the West.   A subsequent referendum in the Crimea confirmed that decision and Russia became part of Russia.    There were numerous western company opinion polls confirming that outcome. 

The real reason for the present Ukraine situation is NATO wanting the Ukraine as a base against Russia and especially the fleet and harbor facilities in the Crimea.  The Woke  Culture of the West wants to destroy the opposing tendencies in countries like Russia and Hungary and that idiot Biden said they want to change the Russian leadership.    Russia is a country that is not ready to go Woke in other words destruction of their history and culture.                 

.                

So Mozart 

The Russians were defeated and the cities destroyed.   In the Civil war in 2014 14 0000 civilians were and subsequently more than 4 000 Russian speaking people were killed - was 14 000 people killed thus far in the invasion?    The figures are sparse and  the propaganda endless. 

I am afraid it must be a gross  disappointment for you that Russia was not defeated by the Ukraine army.    By the way where will NATO get troops from  - the gutless woke culture will make it virtually impossible to find troops  internally - so are they going to import them from the ME, India and Africa?

In any event the ordinary military leadership in Europe after the Afghanistan fiasco despise the USA military leadership - so despite your hope NATO will keep on declining in importance  as a factor in world politics.       .                  

Russia proved to the world they are weak. Their army is utterly useless and the Woke West would destroy them with ease. Our superior technology, intellect and commitment would make light work of his "force". 
Their train of tanks would be easy pickings for the Wests strike Airforces. 

Putin hides behind his nuclear bombs. Were it not for Putin's nuclear weapons, I would support invading Russia and destroying their government and henchmen. Ukraine can lead the charge, and we have their back, while attacking from all angles. They get to hang Putin as a side show prelude to the Russian Ballet. 

Russia are a liability to the world with their constant stream of authoritarian dictators. If they cant sort out of the problem, we need to do it ourselves. 

DumbMike, is unfortunately a liar. He reads some historical records, and then misinterprets them to suit his own agenda. 
He cant think logically, because emotional bias compromises his objectivity. Then he declares his limited interpretation as fact...

"He cant think logically, because emotional bias compromises his objectivity.."

Speak for yourself...logic is not your forte either...have you got nothing better to do than to p!$$ on Mike?

Actually Clever believes most of what he writes….which has to  mean he is clueless. 

Russia got their arse kicked by the minnow's and Adolf Putin is trying to save face while also trying to save his scrawny child killer arse.

Why do you think he made the nuclear threat, its because he knew if it wasn't for that NATO would have been knocking on the kremlin doors with a set of handcuffs within a week.

I am afraid Russia is stuck in a time loop and to stupid to learn from history and until the people wake up it will remain a third world backwater where the few enslave the ignorant.

Wonder why Seb and Mike aren't on the first horse and cart to go and live in this eutopia  instead of existing in the hell they call the west?

The propaganda in the media is believed by people. and that is showing up in their posts.   The chief argument now is that Russia has been defeated and Ukraine won a glorious patriotic war.  Some photos  of  damaged buildings in cities and a photo  of a burned out tank is enough to convince the brain-deficient that Russia have lost the war  - but at the same time destroyed Ukraine and that there was no justification for the war at all.    

I do believe that  the invasion was wrong and stated that it was.   The fact is that a huge part of the blame for the attack is totally deficient conduct by the corrupt Biden Administration.    If they told their  agents in Ukraine - the present Ukraine Government - to get rid of the Azov Battalion with their Nazi insignia, forget about banning teaching of  Russian in all schools in Ukraine and  release opposition members of Parliament in Ukraine - the invasion could have been avoided.   They did nothing about it and in the case of negotiation at present led by the BRICS countries using Turkey for the system - the USA is specifically excluded from playing    any role in negotiations.

Anybody opposed to the leftist woke culture in the world is demonized by the leftist media an is accused of being spouting Russian propaganda.   The next country under attack is Hungary - where an election is held on Sunday and unless the opposition wins Hungary is doomed as a democracy and is a dictatorial state according to the Woke culture.    The refrain is so similar - it is frightening to think that Goebbels methods are so effectively used at present,       

However, it is not acceptable if actions by the  the western controlled media is queried.  One of their heroes - Bill Gates - is now developing synthetic meat to replace the diets of people - so the Government of the future will ban meat eating sooner than people think it would happen.    So - in terms of the so-called new democracy - the Government can decide where people may live and may not live, what they may eat and may not eat, what they may read or may not read  and  what they may think and may not think.  So that is what is historically the new "democracy".    Opposition to the Goebbels propaganda and Stalinist methods of running elections and brainwashing school children is where we are at present.   When parents object to the school indoctrination program in the USA they are classed as domestic terrorists and the FBI is instructed to spy on them. 

So keep listening to what you are told to think sheeple - but  do not include me in that.

Duplication

Tokkie….did you do your military service?

Yes I did in 1970 to 1973.    Attended  2 special military intelligence courses - the second one I did I passed with the highest marks achieved in SA. that year.   By the way I volunteered for service - I was excluded due to an eye deficiency that ruled me out as a sharpshooter - but was goo d at supporting services.        

You attended 2 military’ intelligence’ classes in 1970 when you were 28 years old, which lasted what, a week?  And all the 18 year old chaps gave up a year of their lives. But you couldn’t because you had a vrot eye that ruled you out as a sharp shooter.

Pretty much the bs I expected. But perhaps if you had done some real military service you wouldn’t so easily justify attacks on civilians.

You attended 2 military’ intelligence’ classes in 1970 when you were 28 years old, which lasted what, a week?  And all the 18 year old chaps gave up a year of their lives. But you couldn’t because you had a vrot eye that ruled you out as a sharp shooter.

Pretty much the bs I expected. But perhaps if you had done some real military service you wouldn’t so easily justify attacks on civilians.

Never said Russia was defeated, just said they got their arse smacked so decided running away was a better option than throwing more wall fodder into the breach.

Ruskies got the shock of their lives when they saw how incompetent their army is when it is full of 18 year old conscripts who would rather be anywhere but sitting in a steel coffin getting the hairs of their arse singed.

If they were only interested in the one area why did they drive all the way to try and capture Kyiv or were they just taking the tourist route to enjoy the scenery and share a vodka with the locals in Kyiv bars?

Honestly I struggle to understand how some people on here manage to breath on their own, I have met people that have had a frontal lobotomy display more intelligence.

Clever made damn sure he wasn’t an 18 year old conscript, so why should he care. He couldn’t do military service because his eyes weren’t good enough to be a sharpshooter..hahaha!

Incredibly there are still people who believe this concocter of fairy tales!

No Mozart

I attended three month long training courses - not week long ones - and for he rest did ordinary training every week at least on two days plus weekends.   You know when you s[read shit - it is real shit.

When is comes to idiocy - nobody can beat the shit Mozart, Rooinek and SB comes up with.  By the way the courses I attended were also attended by full time army personnel anyway. \

Qne will see what comes up in the peace talks anyway - some things which will never be agreed upon by Russia relates to the Cinmea issue and the two Oblasts at present not governed by the Ukraine Government be re-incorporated into Ukraine.   The Ukraine Government  will need an agreement desperately so my guess is they will agree to -

*     losing of the Crimea and the two Eastern Ukraine Oblasts in the Donbas  area;

*     will undertake to accept neutrality and the joining of either  the EU or NATO will be a goner; 

*     the Ukraine army will have to get rid of radical elements in the Army - especially the Asov battalion, as well as reactionaries in other departments of Government.  and

*     oppression of Russians in Ukraine will stop and the political prisoners still held will be released - especially the Opposition members of the Ukraine Parliament.

The Ukraine government will be forced to accept what the Russian Government is prepared to give and no pressure on or incitement from the corrupt Biden will change the situation .            .              

Ou Maaik, stop lying. Conscription began in 1967 when white males between the ages of 17 and 65 years old were called up for 9 months to serve in the SADF. In 1972 that become 1 year plus 19 days camps for 5 years. In 1977 it was increased again to 2 years plus 30 days camps for 8 years. 

That's what we're talking about when we say military service, not "I did a millitry intellergince corse for what I gotted the hihgest marx what are ever scene". 

When asked if you did your military service, the truthful answer would have been a simple "no" . . . but you chose to lie instead.

I know exactly what the situation was and clearly indicated that I volunteered  and was not part of conscription.   You are talking shit again.    I did not lie - you piece of shit.    

So you were "not part of conscription" but when asked if you did your military service, you replied "yes"?

Sounds like a barefaced lie to me.

Comparing your "at least 2 days plus weekends" 3 month course with what young guys of my age went through is an insult. While you were sitting in a classroom picking your nose and dreaming of battery operated wanking machines, we were doing 6 months of basic training (aka opfok) followed by 3 months COIN Ops (aka opfok plus digging trenches) followed by 15 months walking patrols on the border and getting shot at . . . two years away from family, friends and girlfriends with the occasional pass, basically two years of our lives which we gave up - in my case very grudgingly for a cause I didn't believe in, with my only other option being serving 3 years in military jail as a conscientious objecto r . . . followed by a 1 month camp every year for the next 8 years.

So don't lie and pretend that your stupid course constituted "military service" or that you went through anything like we did, you stupid, fat, low-class liar.

I never lied - I left that to you, simpleton.  I said I volunteered for service and went on specific training courses - which was 100% true.