President Musk will not be pleased . . .

Anger you think Trump couldn’t have pulled it off….I think he could. This isn’t a point that can be proven.

You think he can? well that doesn't stop you or Trump supporters acting like it was a guaranteed slam dunk so you can bash Biden for it.

Its amazing people are so convinced he could of stopped the war yet can never articulate how. Its just nebulous stuff like personality, private meetings and contradictory actions like threaten Russia but be nice to Russia.

They can't square the circle because they are trapped by their own contradictions. On one hand they say oh Trump would have scared Putin off by threatening him with American's full military might while spending the last three years screaming at Biden for endangering the world by escalating the conflict too far. Or they say there was a deal to be had but never want to spell out what the deal was, because they know damn well any deal that would of got Putin to stop would of been nothing less than a massive appeasement and capitulation that sold out Ukraine and that would just encourage Putin and others like him around the world to do the same in the future.

 But hell even if this Donald Trump is a great negotiator cool aid had any substance, you're still stuck with Putin on the other side of the negotiating table, an incredibly bad faith actor.

I would say if Trump facilitates a workable peace there is reason to believe he would have been successful in preventing the war.

Not really, because circumstances change. Putin might want to negotiate in the next few months, but that that's with the benefit of three years of hindsight. Do you really think had Putin known this is how his three day special military operation would turn out back in February 2022 he would still have gone ahead with it? 

You can't just look at any potential negotiations between Trump and Putin in isolation and not in the context of the 3 years of war that had gone before.

As for Sochi it was Russia’s chance to impress the world, instead the Western media and many organizations used it as an opportunity to humiliate Russia….an opportunity lost.This from Wikipedia:

No one gives two flying fig sticks about Sochi mate. Do you really think it made the slightest bit of difference to Putin's long term thinking.

So Trump achieving a peace would be less persuasive than your view that he wouldn’t have prevented the conflict in the first place…yes that makes sense.

So Trump achieving a peace would be less persuasive than your view that he wouldn’t have prevented the conflict in the first place…yes that makes sense.

The variables are not the same 3 years later. Putin's army has sustained enormous losses, Russia's vaunted military capability has been shown to be completely over-hyped in nearly all aspects, on the ground, in the air and at sea. A coup was attempted against Putin. Russia territory has been occupied. Ukraine has be so resource consuming Russia was unable to intervene in the Amerina-Azerbaijan conflict and unable to prop up the Assad Regime in Syria. The war has accelerated the decline of Russia's arm's exporting industry, Russia energy sales to Europe have dropped massively, Russia is under the toughest sanctions in history.

Russia has switched to a near war like economy, something that is unsustainable in the long run, with strong signs recently that the Russian economy is really starting to struggle. Putin 'swar kitty reserve isn't far off depleted and Russia has burned through most of the Soviet stockpiles of tanks and armoured vehicles. Russia has also faced the indignity of having to use North Korean troops.

Putin wouldn't have predicted any of this before the war started.

Despite the myth of endless Russian manpower and equipment, Russia can't keep going at its present rate. If the war ends during Trump's term, it doesn't necessarily mean its down to Trump's skill, as opposed to Russia needing the war to end because it can't sustain it. A situation that may have occurred had Biden/Harris kept the Presidency.

Then there is also the question of say if Trump does achieve a peace deal , will it be a good peace that lasts? Will Putin keep its word or do we find a few years later Russia makes up a bunch of BS and attacks Ukraine again?

All so enlightening to read liberals quarelling (liberals are too obseesed with the balance of power to be able to discuss or debate) Correct points are nowhere to be found, that is propaganda against propaganda, as fitting a dispute or a quarrel.

Was it necessary for Trump to criticize Ukraine's missile strike in Russia?

Or Trump now negating any prospects of  Ukraine joining NATO ?

It probably was. DJT pictured himself as a mster negotiator. The terms of the peace are going to be defined by Russia. And Russia seems to have learned from the Indians that the US are not trustworthy, they are not bound by their own words. DJT is coerced to appease Russia in this environment. Probably won(t work as the Russians are set: they do not trust the united states of America.

It probably was. DJT pictured himself as a mster negotiator. The terms of the peace are going to be defined by Russia. And Russia seems to have learned from the Indians that the US are not trustworthy, they are not bound by their own words. DJT is coerced to appease Russia in this environment. Probably won(t work as the Russians are set: they do not trust the united states of America.

Still no idea what point you're trying to make. Could you go outside for a few months and interact with a few people so you understand how to communicate like a normal person and not like your reading from a script generated by some buggy beta A.I.

Anger it’s just a repeat of your unwillingness to give Trump credit for anything…..the vaccine comes out in record time, his  pressure made no difference. NATO finally increases spending, his highlighting of the issue was irrelevant. So I fully expect if he helps negotiate a practical peace he will get no credit.

Anger it’s just a repeat of your unwillingness to give Trump credit for anything…..the vaccine comes out in record time, his  pressure made no difference.

I actually have given Trump credit on multiple occasions for Operation Warp Speed. The thing about it is that he only gets so much credit for doing the default and only option available to him and that was to bet on vaccines being the way out of the p andemic. Are you seriously suggesting that another President be they Democratic or Republican would of just sat there with the scale and seriousness of the pandemic, and thought you know what, let's just let the medical scientists develop the Covid vaccine at the normal peace of vaccine development, we can wait several years its no problem.

There would of been something similar to Operation Warp Speed under any other President. Maybe it would of helped get the vaccine out quicker, or maybe Operation Warp Speed was the best that could of been achieved, but like everything Trump did right, he and his supporters oversell it or leave out context.

NATO finally increases spending, his highlighting of the issue was irrelevant.

Yes it was irrelevant because America's NATO allies were already increasing their defense spending after commitments they made back in 2014 which predate his Presidency.

So I fully expect if he helps negotiate a practical peace he will get no credit.

Not necessarily. It depends on the terms of peace deal. Ukraine's preference would be to be given all the aid it needs to win the war but they are practical and would likely agree to a peace deal leaving the territory under Russian control that way for the time being in exchange for absolute cast iron security guarantees that if Russia breaks the deal, the west goes all in defending Ukraine, in affect NATO article 5 like protection without being in NATO. Any peace deal that does not provide such a security guarantee would not be worth the paper its printed on.

Stav

"Stop holding up Russian collusion as an excuse for his political assassination, fact is he brought it on himself, he was too dumb and arrogant for his own good, anyone with the smarts plays the media, it's a matter of ends and means, no-one in his right mind takes on the media with the hope of winning. I don't know of anyone who has.As for Biden screwing up the economy....that's a highly debatable subject and I won't take your word on it, the economy might already have been screwed."

Lets look at the above,  The virus originated from the Wuhan where gain=of-function research was done by scientists funded by D r Faucci and the US Health Department withou Budget approval.   Th virus leaked from that lab and led to a worldide pandemic.   

Dr forexsed in 2017 that there will be a pandemic in he wol during Trump's term of office a president ad sur - there was a world wide pandemic i n 2020,  How ddd Dr Faucci so accurately predict what would happen in 2020?

Aside from the Russian Hoax media BS based on lies spread by te Biden Regime and Clinton  it was lies 12  hours per day.  The other story was an attack on Trump 12 hours perdaay on the virus issue and the pandemic  The whole thing  was a farce with tragic consequinces for the world.   When th e vorus struck Trump who had successfully  negotiate a trade deal with China found that President Xi wa lying to him about the virus he tore up the enw trade deal and closed the border for non-citzens entering the USA from China,   The Democrat Party screamed murder - Pelosi went t te Chinese Market  in St Francisco and screamed n her normal drunken  stete that Trump is a racis/   In the USA HEALTH is a S tate function ad not a Federal Government function and all Trump could legally do was to assist States when hel is needed to cobat the pandemic,   He acted on requests from  States who asked for help and that all of them got.

However -  Trump made a huge mistake when he used Dr Faucci  as his advisor on the pndemic.   Faucci support ne day some action and the enxt day said the treatment would not wok and th enxt day he sid the exact oppositen to what he said begote,  For example e admitted that the maksis not working - a week late he supported compulsory wearing of masks.      When Trump found out about the funding of the Wuhan livrary and also thew affling of Dr Faucci - he fored him from ths advisory team  dealing with Covid.     

Based on Faucci' advice he banned on Trump made a fiuther mistake to ban schedule onm a te,prary basis advising  the States they can unban the measures and Republican states started opening shops, schools and oher public facilities based on the State Governments  own decisions - big mistake the Democratic Party took up to two years before schools and could be opened in DP controlled States .   The same sates enforced compulsory      mask wearing and people was forced to stay indoor for many months afte Biden took over the Peidency and the lattwer eent over-the board .    Hoeever - while warp speed wa going onm in the eection campaign in 2020 Biden and Harris attacked te vaccine be developed and advied people not to take the Trump vaccine  and swore they they would refuse the taking of the vaccine snd advise peole not to be vacciinated,   As per normal two of the first people to be vaccinated as Biden and Harris,

That was followed  by regulations that made it compulsory to be vaccinated  and lied about two issues, namely -

*    vaccine oreveted people from gettin infected and 

*    if you do not take vaccination you will die.

When in New York circa 30 000 nursing and medical staff refused to be vaccinated they got fired and days hereafter about 50 000 took part in dwmonstration  New York city    When 60 000 soldiers refused to take the vaccine they were arrested ,and held in badly firnished barracks and the lot of them discharged.     It came back wirth a vengeance,   When in 2023 the USA could not meet recruiting targets - the 60 000 soldier were approached by the DOD  to rejoin the army, they refuise to return.

During the pandemic Trump enforced a decision to pay grant funding to the amount of $4,6 trilion dollars to assisy yje woring class and poor   to small businesses and  factories to get them  re-open.     In the case of assistance to small busineses as per normal  went to Staes and malor cities,    In 2023  the Auditor General found that in  State and Major Cities comtrolled by the Democratic Party a total amount of $5,4 billion vaished into thin air.    As to be expected from them the FBI refused  to investigaate what happene to the missing $5,4 billion     Hopefully under the new Adminstration the fate of the $5.4 billion will be inveestigated,

Another fact you may check is that in 2020 less people died as  result of Covid in the last year of Trump's Presidency than died in a corresponding period wiith Biden as President.   

So please keep writing on site narow-minded people could accept. the nonsense and thnking people would investogte isues nd would normally recognice the difference between wishful thinkig people and realists,            

The press conference on the Vaccine:

He added: “Its objective is to finish developing and then manufacture and distribute a proven coronavirus vaccine as fast as possible. Again, we’d love to see if we can do it prior to the end of the year.”

Standing just behind him, Anthony Fauci, an infectious diseases expert wearing a face mask, cast his glance down and reached to adjust his tie. Trump did not wear a face mask.

In testimony to Congress on Tuesday, Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, warned: “There’s no guarantee that the vaccine is actually going to be effective.”

And on Thursday Rick Bright, the ousted head of a government agency seeking a vaccine, told Congress: “Normally, it takes up to 10 years to make a vaccine. A lot of optimism is swirling around a 12-to-18-month time frame, if everything goes perfectly. We’ve never seen everything go perfectly.”

Joe Lockhart, a former White House press secretary, tweeted: “There is not an objective scientist on TV right now that believes anything that was said at the press conference who believes anything like this can be done by the end of the year.

….. ..

Trump was way out in front pushing this project and forcing bureaucracy to take on some risk. Have you ever run anything Anger? These things happen because of leadership.

Chat on balance agrees Trump’s involvement with NATO had an effect. You of course attribute it all to trends that were already in place. If it’s a balance of views out there, I prefer Chat to your curated Woke sources:

‘ Donald Trump's administration often emphasized the issue of NATO member states not meeting their defense spending commitments, particularly the guideline of spending 2% of their GDP on defense. His public and private pressure on NATO allies to increase their spending was a significant aspect of his foreign policy.

While defense spending among NATO countries was already trending upward before Trump's presidency, his vocal and persistent criticism is widely acknowledged to have accelerated or amplified those increases in some cases. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg credited the increased spending in part to Trump's insistence, though it is also important to note that broader geopolitical factors, such as rising tensions with Russia, contributed to the trend.

You simply don’t understand the process. I worked with the FDA for many years. Their mission is to protect. Their first instinct is to slow things down, to be sure. The scientists are trained in that system. What Trump did was make it okay to be aggressive while Fauci was ‘looking down and adjusting his tie’

And to call Trump one of the world’s dumbest men is just petulance. He isn’t an academic  type, but has plenty of street smarts and thinks for himself.

"And to call Trump one of the world’s dumbest men is just petulance"

That's being polite..... not just petulance

He might not be dumb but he remains imo. a dangerous f'wit.

Go ahead and tell us it's smart to stream a worldwide audience..... 'injecting bleach under the skin' ......gets rid of covid.

And OBTW truth be told  Trump only woke up to covid in march long after it had manifested itself in November of the previous year.

Call that smart?

He did nothing special other than belatedly throw money at Big Pharma something anyone with no choice would have done.

But by far the dumbest thing he's done is to throw hush money out of campaign funds.

Oh, And I love your ‘wehe’….such a Pot Pot bunny

Bet you love ButtPlug nice and tight up your snatch a helluva lot more.

Sies!

Could you go outside for a few months and interact with a few people so you understand how to communicate like a normal person and not like your reading from a script generated by some buggy beta A.I.

So funny. Liberals are so entangled in their battle for supremacy they are now shaken off by the slightest disruption in their narraitve.

Russia does not want to negotiate. They claim they want but they do not want it. They consider that the US are untrustworthy and unable to respect any of the treaties they signed. A lesson that can be learned from the way the US interacted with the Indian pepulations. Yet as liberals are racist, they do not take this as a lesson of life and think that the US are trustworthy as they do not consider all the treaties the US disrespected in the indian situaitons as relevant.

You simply don’t understand the process. I worked with the FDA for many years. Their mission is to protect. Their first instinct is to slow things down, to be sure. The scientists are trained in that system.

Oh I understand the process very well, in the medical profession developing vaccines for serious diseases takes a long time and approval for widespread use only comes after years of trials. You don't know need to have worked in the FDA to know that. But what you also don't need a medical degree to know, is that Covid 19 was not your typical disease. It was disease of such seriousness that it was going to infect billions and kill tens if not hundreds of millions around the world. It was situation that mandated all effort be put into developing a vaccine as quickly as possible.

Trump did was make it okay to be aggressive while Fauci was ‘looking down and adjusting his tie’

No what Trump did was the poison the American political environment so much, that someone like Fauci now faces death threats and requires security for himself and his family, all for doing his job.

And to call Trump one of the world’s dumbest men is just petulance. He isn’t an academic  type, but has plenty of street smarts and thinks for himself.

Petulance, you mean how Donald Trump acted after he lost the 2020 election. He has some street smarts alright and good political instincts, but when you say thinks for himself, absolutely he thinks about how a situation will best benefit him, he just spends next to no time thinking of anyone else.

So funny. Liberals are so entangled in their battle for supremacy they are now shaken off by the slightest disruption in their narraitve.

No we simply don't understand what you're saying.

Russia does not want to negotiate. They claim they want but they do not want it. They consider that the US are untrustworthy and unable to respect any of the treaties they signed.

Yes its true Russia claim to want to negotiate but they don't. To an extent America are untrustworthy, they have indeed broken some treaties they signed in the past. But the Russian's are also completely untrustworthy, having broken numerous agreements they have signed.

But you see here's the thing. Why is it the Russian's have to negotiate with America? I mean the war is between them and Ukraine.

A lesson that can be learned from the way the US interacted with the Indian pepulations.

Seriously, you think Russia never conquered, killed oppressed people through out its history. At this point who hasn't done that?

"No what Trump did was the poison the American political environment so much, that someone like Fauci now faces death threats and requires security for himself and his family, all for doing his job"

What absolute rubbish

Fauci did this to himself, Trump didn't need to do anything at all

"absolutely he thinks about how a situation will best benefit him, he just spends next to no time thinking of anyone else"

Yeah, for a guy that previously did and I assume still does so many things behind the scenes, for previously disadvantaged people, when expecting no reward or recognition, yeah, it's all for him.

Bollocks

What absolute rubbish

Yeah, for a guy that previously did and I assume still does so many things behind the scenes, for previously disadvantaged people, when expecting no reward or recognition, yeah, it's all for him.

Stav

No we simply don't understand what you're saying.

Of course,liberals do not. They can not accept what it is written.Liberals have a warped perception of themselves, they picture themseelves as champions of freedom whereas they champion coercion. They started as obvious slaver societies and yet keep depicting that era of theirs as a battle for freedom. The gap between people who accept what liberalism is and liberals who keep denying is too big for liberals to accept. They deny.

Seriously, you think Russia never conquered, killed oppressed people through out its history. At this point who hasn't done that?

The usual absence of defense as set by liberals. They have a good and evil perception of the world and yet keep sending back to people they consider as part of the evil side to explain their own behaviour. Very funny in fact, more about that if time.

When it comes to indian populations, it is not the number of treaties the US broke,, it is the number of treaties they respected. Liberals are racist so they dismiss it easily as a non case as the US targeted non white people. Now in Europe, they start thinking it was not such a good computation as the US also increasingly disregard their word when it comes to white populations.

Russia does not want to negotiate because it has accepted that negotiating with the US is pointless as since the US are unable of respecting their word. So they keep working at securing a fronier they deem necessary to feel protected.

Later, they will come up and dictate the peace resolution terms. As such, Trump who pictures himself as a master negotiator but who must face the very fact that Russia won't negotiate with the US, had to take as his own terms that are going to be dictated by Russia. It is a way to save the face: take the demands of the other side, make them appear as you introduce them and then, bingo, Yrump can still claim he is a master at negotiating.

"Fauci merely did his job. He spoke with the weight of the best scientific advise that was available to him at the time. But apparently that warrants death threats to him and his family now?"

If manipulating or coercing the general public into taking the vaccine is him just merely doing his job, I don't agree at all with you.

If he was any way involved in the research, production, management or delivering of the vaccine, he should not personally be directly discussing ways to strong arm the general public into taking the vaccine..

I think he has been excellent in other aspects of his career, but di scussing ways to deliberately pressure people to take the vaccine by making it difficult to live their normal everyday lives, is most definitely not one of them.

"Seriously is this a joke. Trump happens to be one of the most boastful people around. And here you're saying he didn't expect a reward or recognition"

There are plenty.... plenty of times that he boasts and seeks recognition for things he has done.... I am not blind to that... and I never said he has never done that....

What you are completely blind to, is how many other things he has done, and it's a lot.....which never ever made it to the public domain..... because it's shows Trump in the wrong light.....

Again, I would say .... broaden your thoughts a bit on this issue.

Should not that Fauci guy be depicted as a salesman for the vaccine Trump allowed to design through his brilliant decision making? It reads as if he used classical liberal selling strategies.

Of course,liberals do not. They can not accept what it is written.Liberals have a warped perception of themselves, they picture themseelves as champions of freedom whereas they champion coercion. They started as obvious slaver societies and yet keep depicting that era of theirs as a battle for freedom. The gap between people who accept what liberalism is and liberals who keep denying is too big for liberals to accept. They deny.

No you speak absolute f**king gibberish. You mention the word liberal like a billion times but I still have no clue who your taking about. Is it right wing people, is it left wing people, is it both is it everyone in the west?

The usual absence of defense as set by liberals. They have a good and evil perception of the world and yet keep sending back to people they consider as part of the evil side to explain their own behaviour. Very funny in fact, more about that if time.

So American did bad things in the past and thus can't be trusted but Russia who also bad things in the past and are doing very bad things right now in Ukraine can be trusted.

When it comes to indian populations, it is not the number of treaties the US broke,, it is the number of treaties they respected. Liberals are racist so they dismiss it easily as a non case as the US targeted non white people. Now in Europe, they start thinking it was not such a good computation as the US also increasingly disregard their word when it comes to white populations.

What have the Indians to do with Ukraine? So liberal are racists that deny the US broke treaties with the Indians, okay strange definition. And Europe is having second thoughts on the US because it doesn't believe the US disregards Europe's word on white populations. WTF are you on about?

Russia does not want to negotiate because it has accepted that negotiating with the US is pointless as since the US are unable of respecting their word.

You didn't answer the question, why does Russia need to negotiate with the US and not Ukraine directly? They invaded Ukraine not the US.

So they keep working at securing a frontier they deem necessary to feel protected.

Ah so you're one of these clowns that think Russia was under threat from the US and it was okay for them just to invade another sovereign nation on the grounds of security and also the fact that American's were not very nice to the Indians ?

Later, they will come up and dictate the peace resolution terms. As such, Trump who pictures himself as a master negotiator but who must face the very fact that Russia won't negotiate with the US, had to take as his own terms that are going to be dictated by Russia. It is a way to save the face: take the demands of the other side, make them appear as you introduce them and then, bingo, Yrump can still claim he is a master at negotiating.

And just for clarity those Russian dictated terms will be what exactly?

What you are completely blind to, is how many other things he has done, and it's a lot.....which never ever made it to the public domain..... because it's shows Trump in the wrong light.....

I've gave him credit for the Abraham Accords, Operation Warp Speed and finishing the fight against ISIS in Syria on numerous occasions, but now you want me to give him for credit for stuff that nobody knows about. What sort of thinking is that?

"I've gave him credit for the Abraham Accords, Operation Warp Speed and finishing the fight against ISIS in Syria on numerous occasions, but now you want me to give him for credit for stuff that nobody knows about. What sort of thinking is that?"

I am not referring to him as the President at all .... you are... because I don't and never have just looked at him and judged him that way at all.... why... is that all you have ever judged him by..... being president....it cetainly looks like it.

Also, I am not talking about things that nobody knows about, he is actually quite well known for things that he has done throughout his life, but people that dislike him so much, like you, often overlook this part of who he is and what he has done during his life.

I am specifically talking and referring to things that he, as a man, not as the president, has done throughout his life and career, that most people don't actually take the effort, to look at and acknowledge.

You see the man, and you judge the man, without really looking into what he has done "off" the books and "out" of the spotlight.

Just like you staunchly defended Fauci here, without (I guess) knowing that he was actively involved in coercing / manipulating / forcing the public into taking the vaccine that he was invol ved with.

No you speak absolute f**king gibberish. You mention the word liberal like a billion times but I still have no clue who your taking about. Is it right wing people, is it left wing people, is it both is it everyone in the west?No you speak absolute f**king gibberish. You mention the word liberal like a billion times but I still have no clue who your taking about. Is it right wing people, is it left wing people, is it both is it everyone in the west?

Shows how much liberals are confused. It has nothing to do with left, right and center since all of them are liberals. A liberal is a proponent of liberalism, the political philosophy that established the US and  prevailed in part of the world.

What have the Indians to do with Ukraine? So liberal are racists that deny the US broke treaties with the Indians, okay strange definition. And Europe is having second thoughts on the US because it doesn't believe the US disregards Europe's word on white populations. WTF are you on about?

Nothing like that was evere written. The US have a history. A history that is marked by disrespecting most if not all treaties they drafted and signed with Indian populations. More than enough to characterize the US as an unstrustworthy nation. Yet people, mostly white people, keep considering the US as a trustworthy nation. How comes? Racism is a legitimate explanation. They do not think that all the broken treaties matter as they were signed with Indians. As usual, with liberals, there is an inversion in accusation. It is: what are people on to keep thinking the US is trustworthy despite all the treaties they broke with the Indians? Not when people point the obvious: the US are untrustworthy as they broke too many treaties to be considered trustworthy.

Ah so you're one of these clowns that think Russia was under threat from the US and it was okay for them just to invade another sovereign nation on the grounds of security and also the fact that American's were not very nice to the Indians?

It shows that it is not possible to discuss with liberals as they can not stand anything that does not match their propaganda. It was written that Russia will end the war when they achieve the war objectives they consider as necessary to ensure and enforce by themselves the defence of their territory. For example, since the English launched attacks from Odessa on the russian soil (using drones), Odessa is likely to be a war objective they will want to take to prevent an attack launched from Odessa in the future.

You didn't answer the question, why does Russia need to negotiate with the US and not Ukraine directly? They invaded Ukraine not the US.

Another inversion. Liberals invert most of the things. That's the US that think Russia must negotiate with them in order to validate an end to the war. It is pretty straightforward that Russia could do without foreign interference betwenn them and Ukraine.

And just for clarity those Russian dictated terms will be what exactly?

Anything they deem necessary to their protection. It will very likely include no NATO adhesion for Ukraine. That is why Trump who pictures himself as a master negotiator hinted at that. Again, taking the demand from the other side and painting as coming from him or being something he would have supported without Russia demanded is a way to save the face as the illusory master negotiator he depicts himself as.

Trad

Stav and I may disagree on many things, but he is 100% spot on regarding you.

Your posts are so poor in context and information..... literally rubbish.

Oh I understand the process very well, in the medical profession developing vaccines for serious diseases takes a long time and approval for widespread use only comes after years of trials. You don't know need to have worked in the FDA to know that. But what you also don't need a medical degree to know, is that Covid 19 was not your typical disease. It was disease of such seriousness that it was going to infect billions and kill tens if not hundreds of millions around the world. It was situation that mandated all effort be put into developing a vaccine as quickly as possible.

….

President Donald Trump is doubling down on his claim that Americans could see a vaccine for the novel coronavirus by the end of the year.

"Another essential pillar of our strategy to keep America open is the development of effective treatments and vaccines as quickly as possible. I want to see if we can do that very quickly," Trump said Friday at an event to highlight his administration's effort to expedite a vaccine, dubbed "Operation Warp Speed." "When I say 'quickly,' we're looking to get it by the end of the year if we can. Maybe before."

But the Trump administration's own medical and scientific experts leading the race to develop a vaccine routinely cast doubt on that timeline.

….

‘But the Trump administration experts cast doubt’….did they ever, including lead doubter Fauci.

The vaccine was delivered in December 2020….7 months after this article was written. Trump refused to be moved by expert opinion that the vaccine couldn’t be delivered for years. He made it happen through funding, putting pressure on the approval process and reducing risk for the drug companies.

Most politicians would have been guided by the experts, which inevitably would have pushed out the time line.

If you ever managed anything you would understand that,

Trad

Stav and I may disagree on many things, but he is 100% spot on regarding you.

Why did Trump want to be elected? To do the same as Biden. He wanted to be in charge to do the very same. That's liberalism, a fight to be the one in charge to do a predetermined  program that does not depend on the one who is in charge. Trump just like Biden presses Ukraine to move down the age of conscription in Ukraine for example to feed the battle front with more soldiers. Just like Biden, Trump wants to fight the proxy war with Russia to the last Ukrainian. Trump is a globalist, just like Biden is or any liberal is. Etc

Liberals are the people who freed the slaves and gave the people the freedom to elect their own government...Trad seems to support monarchies and dictators...wonder how he would like living in Russia, China, Iran or Nork...

I am not referring to him as the President at all .... you are... because I don't and never have just looked at him and judged him that way at all.... why... is that all you have ever judged him by..... being president....it cetainly looks like it.

Well I primarily judged him on his Presidency because that's what's most relevant. I'm aware he was a business man long before he was President and that his record as a business man has been hit and miss, he's also had various legal issues over the years.

Also, I am not talking about things that nobody knows about, he is actually quite well known for things that he has done throughout his life, but people that dislike him so much, like you, often overlook this part of who he is and what he has done during his life.

I am specifically talking and referring to things that he, as a man, not as the president, has done throughout his life and career, that most people don't actually take the effort, to look at and acknowledge.

You see the man, and you judge the man, without really looking into what he has done "off" the books and "out" of the spotlight.

How can I look into something's he done off the books, wouldn't the whole point of doing something off the books be that no one finds out about it?

Just like you staunchly defended Fauci here, without (I guess) knowing that he was actively involved in coercing / manipulating / forcing the public into taking the vaccine that he was involved with.

No I knew about his comments about makings difficult for the unvaccinated so they give up their ideological bullshit as he called it, but I'm simply ambivalent about it. I can understand people not wanting to be forced into getting a vaccine but I can also see the viewpoint that the unvaccinated were putting an unnecessary and greater strain on health services for their own selfish reasons. People talk about the situation as being a matter of free choice, but the choice of not get vaccinated was not a free lunch were the consequences only affected the non vaccinated. My ire would be directed towards the people who pushed misinformation about the vaccines and fueled vaccine skepticism.

Trad

Stav and I may disagree on many things, but he is 100% spot on regarding you.

‘But the Trump administration experts cast doubt’….did they ever, including lead doubter Fauci.

Fauci was merely managing expectations and trying to ensure people complied with health guidelines, which they would have been less inclined to do if they believed a vaccine was just around the corner, which there may or may not have been.

The vaccine was delivered in December 2020….7 months after this article was written. Trump refused to be moved by expert opinion that the vaccine couldn’t be delivered for years. He made it happen through funding, putting pressure on the approval process and reducing risk for the drug companies.

Most politicians would have been guided by the experts, which inevitably would have pushed out the time line.

And he wasn't. That's why his handling of the pandemic got him dump out of office in 2020.

If you ever managed anything you would understand that,

Are you honestly going argue that no other President would have pushed for a vaccine on an accelerated time line.

Fauci was merely managing expectations and trying to ensure people complied with health guidelines, which they would have been less inclined to do if they believed a vaccine was just around the corner, which there may or may not have been.

Nope his punting of Remdisivir was far too optimistic ….but it was his thing, No managing expectations there. He should have been echoing Trump’s time line, that had no effect on immediate measures like distancing, masks or anything else.

Trump of course was trying to present a rosy and optimistic picture as possible, and it just so happened that he coincidentally right on this occasion. Again no one is saying Operation Warp Speed didn't help, but its just absolute ridiculous to think that another President would not have pushed for a vaccine as soon as possible, that approval and funding wouldn't have been fast tracked or that scientists needed a hurry up from politicians.

What you are saying is leadership and goal setting has no effect on results. Warp speed put the challenge out there and Trump’s style made it clear he expected action, Obama or Biden would never have been that direct. He wasn’t coincidentally right….he was right.

And he wasn't. That's why his handling of the pandemic got him dump out of office in 2020.

Helped by the media which exaggerated his statements and never retracted the shameful Russian collusion hoax. Apparently the voters have forgiven him, but now of course the voters are stupid.

Are you honestly going argue that no other President would have pushed for a vaccine on an accelerated time line. 

Nope his punting of Remdisivir was far too optimistic ….but it was his thing, No managing expectations there. He should have been echoing Trump’s time line, that had no effect on immediate measures like distancing, masks or anything else.

Fauci’s statements were based on the best available data at the time. Trump was just putting out optimistic assessments that were not backed by the reality of vaccine development up to that point.

What you are saying is leadership and goal setting has no effect on results. Warp speed put the challenge out there and Trump’s style made it clear he expected action, Obama or Biden would never have been that direct. He wasn’t coincidentally right….he was right.

Oh no leadership can have a role in results. But there is more to leadership than just shouting X needs to be done by such a timeline.  You know what would have happened if Obama or Biden were President, they wouldn't have played down the serious of the pandemic, they wouldn't have down played the importance of testing, or downplayed the need for lockdowns. But of course you think a man who actually tried to get the funding for the CDC cut in 2020 when Covid was already spreading around the world and who himself was formerly a vaccine skeptic is the only man who could of possibly pushed to get a Covid vaccine developed in record time. I'm sure the Biontech scientists who did alot of the development for the vaccine over in Germany were just causally developing the vaccine oblivious to the global pandemic, and only got the hurry up because Trump said he would like a vaccine out as quick as possible.

Helped by the media which exaggerated his statements and never retracted the shameful Russian collusion hoax. Apparently the voters have forgiven him, but now of course the voters are stupid.

Russian hoax, Russia hoax, Russia hoax, if I just say Russian hoax enough I can switch off my brain and never have to think critically.

Every President would have pushed a vaccine, probably 19 months out. Just like every CEO pushes for better profits. The proof is in the pudding and the Donald delivered in the least conceivable time saving millions of lives. Ridiculing that accomplishment is pure, unadulterated bias.

Bollocks any President or global leader in Trumps position would of done something similar. The pandemic was simply too big an issue not to try to expedite the development of a vaccine. We don't know if it was the least conceivable time, it might have been, I've acknowledge Operation Warp Speed was certainly a very positive thing and I never ridiculed it. But like everything good Trump did he and his supporters make these obnoxious boasts and over exaggerate his role like he actually went into a lab and personally developed the vaccine or something. No credit to the German scientists (working for a company that was founded by 2 Muslim immigrants lol) that did most of the heavy lifting when it came to the actually scientific research that lead to the vaccine. Had Obama/Biden been President the vaccine would of been delivered in roughly the the same time frame and more American's would of been around to benefit from it because they wouldn't have butchered the handling of the pandemic as badly as Trump did.

The evaluation of Donald Trump's handling of COVID-19 is a complex and polarizing topic, shaped by differing political perspectives, public health outcomes, and varying interpretations of leadership effectiveness. Here's a balanced breakdown of the factors that could contribute to or detract from credit being given to his administration:

Areas Where He Might Get Credit:

1. Operation Warp Speed:

   • Trump's administration played a key role in launching and funding Operation Warp Speed, which accelerated the development and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines.
   • Vaccines were developed, approved, and distributed faster than many experts anticipated.

2. Economic Measures:

   • His administration implemented economic stimulus measures, including direct payments to individuals, support for businesses, and enhanced unemployment benefits.
   • These measures aimed to mitigate the economic fallout of the pandemic.

3. Travel Restrictions:

   • Early in the pandemic, Trump imposed travel restrictions on China and later on Europe, which some argue helped slow the initial spread of the virus.

Criticisms and Challenges:

1. Public Messaging:

   • Critics argue that Trump's messaging about COVID-19 was inconsistent, often downplaying the virus and spreading misinformation.
   • Mixed messages about mask-wearing, testing, and the severity of the pandemic contributed to public confusion.

2. Testing and Mitigation:

   • The early rollout of widespread testing was criticized as inadequate and slow.
   • Some public health experts believe more robust federal leadership in testing and mitigation strategies could have saved lives.

3. Polarization of Public Health Measures:

   • Trump's rhetoric and handling of issues like mask mandates and lockdowns were seen by many as politicizing public health measures, leading to divisions and lower compliance.

4. Responsibility for Outcomes:

   • The U.S. experienced a high number of cases and deaths compared to other nations, and some argue that stronger federal coordination could have led to better outcomes.

Public Perception:

How much credit Trump deserves depends on individual perspectives and priorities. Supporters often highlight the vaccine rollout and economic measures, while critics focus on public health failures and the overall death toll.

Ultimately, evaluating his role requires a nuanced understanding of the challenges posed by the pandemic, the actions his administration took, and their outcomes relative to other nations and historical pandemics.