Support for the war in Ukraine collapsing

Nitpicking…..territory will be lost and men. The treaty won’t get any better.

LOL...nitpicking. You have claimed without anything to back it up that Russia will soon capture 20 times (120,725km) the amount of territory its captured in the last two year.

Again the false historical parallels….no it’s not WW2 and the Uk isn’t the USA.

False parallel?...so we appear to have the super power of the day meeting with the aggressive power of the day to strike a deal to carve up another country that's not present at the negotiations for the sake of "peace". Also Munich didn't occur during World War 2. You're in denial because you know how badly this reflects on both Trump and America.

There are 60,000 casualties a month as much as half that could conclude in deaths.

No one has Ukrainian causalities at 60,000 a month, that's around double what the Russian's are taking every month and that causality rate is estimated to be 3 times higher than Ukraine's and no one is estimating half the casualties are deaths either. In war the ratio of wounded to killed is usually between 3:1 to 5:1.

Eighteen more months and that’s another half a million young men killed for the language on a piece of paper. Language which won’t stop the Russians from any future actions.

Your just making up random numbers at this point, unless...oh please god tell me your not lumping Ukrainian and Russian causalities together?

And you know damn well the Ukrainian's aren't fighting for some language on a piece of paper. That's insulting disingenuous nonsense and you know it. They are fighting to preserve their national identify and their freedom and the right not to be forced to live under an authoritarian regime.

Sign the treaty, get broad acceptance of Ukraine’s status

What treaty? If a treaty preposed from summit is Putin's preferred treaty then it's not treaty, its a surrender demand. Ukraine and Europe will simply reject it.

Help neighboring countries build up there defenses

Neighbouring countries are already building up their defences.

and try once again to influence Russia to compete economically not militarily.

Oh my god how naive can you be. We spent decades trying that. Putin will just laugh and think how weak the west is. No Europe will not just turn a blind eye and go back to doing business with Russia, it will remain a sanctioned impoverished pariah to Europe until it decides it want's to be a normal country that doesn't attack it's neighbours. We are not just going reward Russia for stealing another European countries land land then help it build up its resources so it can attack us again.

No one has Ukrainian causalities at 60,000 a month, that's around double what the Russian's are taking every month and that causality rate is estimated to be 3 times higher than Ukraine's and no one is estimating half the casualties are deaths either. In war the ratio of wounded to killed is usually between 3:1 to 5:1.

‘

Nor do I have Ukranian casualties at 60,000 a month. I have them and Russia at 30000 a month and Russian deaths are estimated at 15000 to 20000 a month. So a guesstimate of 30000 deaths per month. Here’s cChat’s summary that backs that up.

Bottom Line

1. Russia: Current estimates suggest about 1,000 military casualties per day, meaning ~30,000 total monthly casualties, possibly resulting in ~15,000 to 20,000 killed each month.
2. Ukraine: Precise current numbers are harder to locate; past estimates indicated ~30,000 casualties monthly, but current figures may differ and require more detailed breakdowns.

……….

please don’t tell me you are lumping Ukranian and Russian casualties together.

That’s exactly what I’m doing. I’m concerned about all the deaths, the young Russians have no more culpability than the young Ukranians. And I never make up numbers

Oh my god how naive can you be. We spent decades trying that. Putin will just laugh and think how weak the west is. No Europe will not just turn a blind eye and go back to doing business with Russia, it will remain a sanctioned impoverished pariah to Europe until it decides it want's to be a normal country that doesn't attack it's neighbours. We are not just going reward Russia for stealing another European countries land land then help it build up its resources so it can attack us again.

Oh that’s rich coming from an admirer of the EU. Did the EU dial back on Russian oil after Crimea in 2014. Nope it just went on with ….ehmmm business as usual. Here’s Chat’s verdict:

When Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, the European Union did not meaningfully reduce its reliance on Russian oil at that time. Energy sanctions were limited, and shifting away from Russian oil then would have disrupted the European economy.

So spare me your sanctimonious twaddle. We can treat the most dangerous country in the world as an enemy or we can try to engage it more positively. For the sake of the young people today that’s what we should do. Putin can’t last forever but apparently Russian memory does.

It’s not easy work, but the West has to continue to engage the Communist super powers. The fact that Trump and Putin can talk is a minor safeguard. Following Ukraine with another period of Russian isolation will solve nothing.

Its taken Russia 11 years to 'acquire' 20%'

Mozart ... You're knowingly talking bollocks

Actually it took Russia 2 months to acquire 20% at the beginning of the war, of which 7% has been regained by the Ukraine. If a major front line cracks acquiring 20% is conceivable. But it obviously wasn’t a prediction, just a way of saying things could get much worse for the Ukraine. Gallup is showing a massive drop in commitment to the war, I tend to believe their numbers rather than local polls which show a smaller drop.

Piers Morgan Uncensored

Blobbok

Bowder obviously is afraid improvement odf relations could result in an agreement for him to be extarddated to Russia ro face crinal charges or his lootin g operation in Russia. Other tthan bein g a criminal he ahs no knowledge of Russia after he was expelled from Russia in 1996.

What he ahs t say is to eb expeced from liars aand I routinely listen to his ravin gs and wonder why this garbage sh uld eb a regarded as an expert on Russia. Because Yelsin ried to improve relation he had the arrested fraudster freed from jail instead expelled him from Russa anyway.

ouMaaik go to min 19.0 for info on corruption in Ukraine .....

Nor do I have Ukranian casualties at 60,000 a month. I have them and Russia at 30000 a month and Russian deaths are estimated at 15000 to 20000 a month. So a guesstimate of 30000 deaths per month. Here’s cChat’s summary that backs that up.

No credible source is coming up with 30,000 deaths a month even when combined Russian and Ukraine losses. As pointed out already wounded to killed ratios in modern war are typically some where 3:1 to 5:1.

Bottom Line

1. Russia: Current estimates suggest about 1,000 military casualties per day, meaning ~30,000 total monthly casualties, possibly resulting in ~15,000 to 20,000 killed each month.
2. Ukraine: Precise current numbers are harder to locate; past estimates indicated ~30,000 casualties monthly, but current figures may differ and require more detailed breakdowns.

Yet amazingly Chat doesn't give me anywhere these numbers. Nor does Co-Pilot.

I asked chat if Ukraine is suffering 30,000 causalities a month and its summary was.

Chat's response.

So, no, Ukraine is not currently suffering 30,000 casualties per month. That figure is more associated with earlier peaks or older estimates—not with current data.

That’s exactly what I’m doing. I’m concerned about all the deaths, the young Russians have no more culpability than the young Ukranians. And I never make up numbers

How ignorant you are. It's a known fact that the majority of Russian soldiers presently fighting in Ukraine are on contract. They signed up because Russia relatively high salaries and bonuses compared to the average Russian salary, the majority are their by choice. To say nothing of the vile propaganda they flood telegram with celebrating massacres and war crimes. How about the celebration of what's called the Human Safari, where Russian's live stream hunting Ukrainian civilians in Kherson with drones.

Yes there is a sizable minority of Russia troops who are conscripted and while Russia claims they are not used in active combat roles not doubt some are being used, but they have the choice of surrendering to Ukrainian.

And remember the principal established at Nuremberg...saying you were simply following orders is not a defence against war crimes.

Your also even wrong about their age. The average age of Russian soldiers is around 40 now.

Oh that’s rich coming from an admirer of the EU. Did the EU dial back on Russian oil after Crimea in 2014. Nope it just went on with ….ehmmm business as usual. Here’s Chat’s verdict:

When Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, the European Union did not meaningfully reduce its reliance on Russian oil at that time. Energy sanctions were limited, and shifting away from Russian oil then would have disrupted the European economy.

So spare me your sanctimonious twaddle. We can treat the most dangerous country in the world as an enemy or we can try to engage it more positively. For the sake of the young people today that’s what we should do. Putin can’t last forever but apparently Russian memory does.

Bravo...well done on arguing against your point. Europe (or America) didn't significantly try to punish Russia following its seizure of Crimea. It largely carried on as normal. And what did that lead to...Russia coming back for more. Europe has learned it's lesson, appears the US has not.

You need to get into your head Putin does not care to have normal relations with the west, he think's he one of histories great leaders on a historic mission to restore Russia to what's entitled too, control of eastern Europe. He didn't change his mind overnight, he wasn't insulted or slighted into thinking this, (and I don't want to hear nonsense about Sochi). It's what he's always believed and wanted. He thinks the west is weak and with people like Trump (who he believes is a total moron that's easy to manipulate) and people thinking like you do he might well be right.

Gallup is showing a massive drop in commitment to the war, I tend to believe their numbers rather than local polls which show a smaller drop.

Gallup is reputable pollster and no one is arguing against a massive drop in a commitment to fighting the war to get all of Ukraine's territory back, that doesn't change the fact the Ukrainian's will not accept an end to the war on terms largely dictated by Russia.

Moffie is tied to Putin and Trump's hip......he's saying exactly what Trump is saying.....give Putin what he wants for the sake of peace. Trump with his softly softly approach is allowing Putin to dictate terms, as a matter of fact with that approach anyone could enter into negotiations with Putin and end up with the same result.

Putin has not shown one ounce of accommodating a negotiated settlement or has made one public comment showing his sincerity....it's a farce.

I hope I'm wrong.

Stav

I know you reuse answer questions I pose to you - but I would yet want an answer in respect of the following three issues as to the following issues:-

The issue about the 3,5 million people abducted or deprted from Ukraine by Russia - a statement you should ahve checked on Securiy Council documentation on the ssue of people beingmovd out of the war zone for their safety;

The following survey by the Kiev Independent:-

It would be interesting to know what the difference is between the US PLan and the Europe Ukraine plan. The fact is that there is regular liaison between the EU leadership and the Trump Admsinistration on te negotiations and the European leaders liaised regualryly w Trump on the issue, That is public knowledge -so what is the difference between the European plan and the USA plan?

What treaty? If a treaty preposed from summit is Putin's preferred treaty then it's not treaty, its a surrender demand. Ukraine and Europe will simply reject it.

How can te EU leaders reject an agreement they would have and suport the exact issues dealt with by Trump on a virtual daily basis.

Moffie is tied to Putin and Trump's hip......he's saying exactly what Trump is saying.....give Putin what he wants for the sake of peace. Trump with his softly softly approach is allowing Putin to dictate terms, as a matter of fact with that approach anyone could enter into negotiations with Putin and end up with the same result.

Pretty much. He needs to believe that Russia will inevitably win or big up the Russian nuclear threat so he can justify any potential sell out of Ukraine by Trump. But I'm pretty sure the European leaders made it clear to Trump yesterday that they along with Ukraine wouldn't just go along with any deal that involved Ukraine handing over territory to Russia without (A) there being a ceasefire first (B) Ukraine agreeing too handing over territory (C) and that Ukrainian disarmament is off the table.

So I suspect since Putin won't moderate his demands and Trump won't want to have egg on his face that all we will get from this meeting in Alaska is the announcement of another future meeting between Trump, Putin and maybe Zelensky.

Moffie is tied to Putin and Trump's hip......he's saying exactly what Trump is saying.....give Putin what he wants for the sake of peace.

Not exactly, I’m saying give Ukraine what its people are asking for…a negotiated peace. What you want is for Ukranians to go on dying to keep Putin in his box, so the Theme Park can continue undisturbed.

I’m saying give Ukraine what its people are asking for…a negotiated peace

He's not giving them what they are asking for and you know that damn well at this point. They want peace but not at the price of having to surrender.

What you want is for Ukranians to go on dying to keep Putin in his box, so the Theme Park can continue undisturbed.

Another thing you know is not true.

So you believe your on fairy tales again - Trump cracked the whip qnd Putin asked for and agreed to a emeting wth Trump in Alaska tomorrow, If you beleive the meeting would achieve nothing is just an assumption you invented, I ask you three decent questions on issues and because my questions are based on fact and not fiction you refuse to answer questins on the issue,

Reading your conspiracy theories is really amazing and never factual at all, So what comes out of he meeting will probably be a draft treaty sbmitted secretly to the NATO and the EU leadership for support like happened iro of all the engotiations thus far, That will set the next route to ensure peace in Ukraine,

Another question - when in 2022 did Russia occuoy 26% of the Ukraine territory and where did you et that figure from. What happened was in fact a fabrication you came up with. In March and April 2022 there were negotiations held by Turkey on a ceasefire in Ukraine held in Istanbul - there as a small area to the north of Kiev occupied by Russia and the only thing was it posed a threat to that city. The Ukraine Government would not take part in the negotiations unless the Russians withdrew the troops threatening Kiev and the trroops from the small area occupoed by the Russians were withdrawn - the area in fact affected was probably less than 3% of the Ukraine territory and there were no major battles in the area involved,

Since then the war zone moved to Eastern Ukraine where the war is aspread over the battle line in Eastern Uraine cover circa 1 000 kms in length. The Ukraine army lost major abttles in the area and are and has been on the retreat in the area over he last two years The area is vastly bigger than the area Russian troops withdrew from in 2022. The media now claim the area occupied by Russia is in fact under 20% of the area of Ukraine, but in actual size nearer to 22% when it comse to actual territory covered, How do one get tto 22%. Th e total land aea of Ukraine is 603 625.km2 - The Crimea and 5 Oblasts in Eastern kraine makes up 28% of Ukraine - since not all the areas of the 5 Oblasks mentioned is occupied by Russian troops the area actually occupied by Russian troops can be reduced by 5 to 6% of the total land area - so the area at presenet under Russian cpntrol is between 22 and 23% of the total land area of Ukraine. .

.

.

This meeting is supposed to be a precurser for Zelensky attending the 2nd meeting.... that is if Trump thinks it is worth it and also if they want him to attend.

He's not giving them what they are asking for and you know that damn well at this point. They want peace but not at the price of having to surrender.

They want peace and they are being told that the Putin proposal won’t give them that. Brave people. But they are reaching their limits…here’s Chat.

If the policy question is “What’s the general mood—talk now vs. fight on?” then Gallup is the better gauge of broad sentiment. Their early-July wave finds ~69% want a negotiated end ‘as soon as possible’ and ~24% want to fight until victory

Only 24% want to go on fighting. What they want may not be attainable, but is certainly worth negotiating for…the cry goes up Trump will sell them out.

But actually he prides himself in being a skillful negotiator, and while I can think of deals that never got done eg N Korea, I can’t think of a poor deal he has done. Let’s see what happens.

I do have some knowledge about that type of negotiation. There are three methods to be used in such cases -

1. on 70% of the issues involved there are agreement on the issues involved that has already been agreed on.
2. 20% is where further negotiations are of a more economic situation directly and indrectly affecting the War situation and future rebuilding programs to resotre the damage done to Ukrane as a result of the war ; and
3. 10% is the real hard core probems like land occupation is in tis case,

In fact it is the 30% situation iro which 50% is less problematic - so we have a core group where agreement is very dficult to agree on. So the fact is the 15% problem area that will form the absis o te negotiations in Alaska, What then happened a draft agreement on ow the 15% problem area is to be dealt with. The two sides involved wll thenm get to appoint specific task teams to deal with the 15% and their proposals will be submitted to Trump who will submit both the USA and Russia reports to the NATO leadership together with proposals as to proposals on compromises to be considered. Once that has been finalized the final negotiations restarts with anotthe summit to be held.

I do not think Zelenskyy will be invovled in future meetings because he really is trying to get support for continuation of the war. As long is the war is ongoing so long his own presidency will last, Once a new Constitution has been compiled and approved by the electorate a new Presidential election will be held ad the chances of Ze;ensyy winning the election is minus zero. That is why Zelenskyy wants continuation of the war and I think he wants aid to keep him in power and that would not be forthcoming in future,

They want peace and they are being told that the Putin proposal won’t give them that. Brave people. But they are reaching their limits…here’s Chat.

What they want is peace but not any price, you're deliberately ignoring the polling that is showing that the majority of Ukrainian's will not accept peace along Russia's terms. There is no indication anything else is on offer at this present time.

Only 24% want to go on fighting. What they want may not be attainable, but is certainly worth negotiating for…the cry goes up Trump will sell them out.

Only 24% want to go on fighting to drive Russia completely out of Ukraine and restore their 2014 borders. That's not the same as a majority as being willing to accept Russia's terms on a peace deal.

Stav

Just an observcation - you know eveything about the issues be dealt with ansd so does the media. Youa lso know exactly what will come from te negotiations. Amazng inside knwoledge in what is supposed to be secret negotiations. You also know that he NATO and EU leaders nmow nothing about what is negotiatedm Amazing - keep us up t date with wat is happening.

DumbMike wishes he were in Russia working as a civil servant who supports the military efforts of Russia against Ukraine.

Oleksandr Mykhed

7–9 minutes

Day 1,254 of the invasion; 31 July 2025, Kyiv, 4.30am. The air-raid alarm started again just a moment ago. I wake up from the roar and rumble of rockets. It’s a sound that makes you want to flee in primeval terror.

Time slows down. I roll over on the bed, embrace my girlfriend Dasha, make another half-turn and we drop down softly to the floor. I am not thinking or reflecting, I’m guided by instinct – move away from the windows, position our silhouettes as low as possible. I cover Dasha with my body. All she has time to ask for is: “The doggie? Where’s the dog?” From under the bed, we can hear the rustling of our old chihuahua’s paws.

Five Iskander-K cruise missiles are falling from the sky. One after another. Like gigantic knives, striking between the ribs of the city. A deadly force that cannot be stopped. The sounds of explosions are coming from different parts of the city, enveloping us in total helplessness. There is no hiding from this.

Two hours before the shelling, I laid out my clothes and placed my emergency bag in the hallway. Just in case. It was not a rational decision based, for example, on warnings from analytical groups. But you can feel the shelling coming. It will happen today or tomorrow. Thousands of little Russians, who “have no influence over anything”, and will repeat at the tribunals the convenient narrative that this is “Putin’s war”, have already manufactured new Shahed drones and missiles.

According to Russia’s new tactics, every night it first sends hundreds of the drones to one or several Ukrainian cities, thus exhausting the air defences, destroying civilian infrastructure and terrorising civilians. And then Russian missiles fly right after them and finish off the city that is already bleeding out.

On that day at the end of July, the all-clear siren after the Shahed attack sounded at 3.18am, after four and a half hours of explosions. After the all-clear, Kyiv residents who had been hiding in shelters and the metro stations returned home to sleep off the exhausting night. Having waited for an hour and anticipating maximum losses, the Russians launched a missile attack on the slumbering city.

In the fourth year of the invasion, I don’t know how to write about the shelling of my home town. Photos of destroyed buildings on social media no longer have the power to shock. The subject matter and angles of the photos have become ordinary.

But if our empathy has indeed worn to the nub, why does it still hurt so much? It hurts because it feels as though the number of Russian shellings devalues the grief and loss associated with each attack. Russia’s actions reinforce the idea that this is now the new normality in Ukraine.

I don’t know how to write about these attacks, but I know for sure that things have got worse.

Statistics show that last year, during July 2024, Russia launched just over 400 drones over Ukraine. A year later, in July of this year, it launched more than 6,400 drones and missiles. Looking at the infographic that visualises this comparison and trying to comprehend the absurd figure of an increase of almost 1,380%, I am lost for words.

Now there are so many Russian drones that they are dismantling the smallest components of infrastructure. It feels like if this were a game of Battleship they would have already destroyed the two-deck ships. And, of course, they are deliberately destroying residential high-rise buildings with civilians inside.

We know exactly when the situation got worse: after Donald Trump came to power. For the Trump 2.0 world, an unsubstantiated promise of peace is already equivalent to peace. But the war did not stop for a moment. It got worse. The Ukrainian data journalism website Texty.org.ua analysed Russian missile and Shahed strikes on 12 frontline and neighbouring regions after Trump’s inauguration. Two months before, the Odesa region was struck twice; two months after, there were more than two dozen strikes.

The UN reports that in June 2025, Ukraine recorded the highest number of civilian casualties for three years – 232 people were killed and another 1,343 wounded. Civilians were killed or wounded in Kyiv and at least 16 other regions. In the first half of 2025, the total number of civilians killed and injured was 6,754: 54% more than in the same period of the last year.

And the same thing is happening on the ground, where the infantry is digging in. Where the frontline is. According to the DeepState monitoring group, which analyses changes on the frontline, Russia has taken almost 1,300 sq km of Ukrainian territory in the first five months of this year. In June alone, it secured a hold over 556 sq km of Ukrainian territory. How much is that? Imagine that in six months the Russians captured an area larger than Greater London. Or in June alone they took over the territory equivalent to five Parises.

The Trump administration has brought Russia back to the table, initiating talks with a terrorist country. But in Russia’s eyes, the west in general and Trump in particular constantly demonstrate weakness. The Kremlin understands only strength, and if its political opponents are unable to implement any of their threats, Russia will expand its political, economic and informational foothold. And its strategic communications – missiles and Shaheds – will speak for themselves.

On that single day in July, Russia launched 309 Shahed drones and eight cruise missiles. Of these, 288 Shahed drones and three Iskander-K missiles were shot down.

I don’t know how to describe this barrage of explosions: 21 Shahed strikes in 12 locations, debris from the downed missiles in 19 locations.

I don’t know how to describe the tachycardia that begins with the first explosion and has the heart drowning in this frantic rhythm for hours. There were 159 wounded, including 16 children.

I don’t know how to find the words to describe what we seem to have seen hundreds of times, but every time it hurts like never before. Thirty-one killed: five children, the youngest just two.

My friend posts a black-and-white photo of 42-year-old IT specialist Vitaly, who was killed alongside his 18-year-old daughter Vlada and dog Spike. Iryna, a mother, and her two daughters, ninth-grader Anastasia and sixth-grader Alina, were killed. Preschool teacher Natalia died along with her two sons, aged 17 and 22, and her brother. Six-year-old Matviy, who had been doing karate for a year and a half, was also killed.

Our lives have long since turned into an endless news feed of these losses. Our memory is trying to record the names and facts, but our consciousness is a black lump of pain. This is just a part of what Russia is striving for, that “No one should be left alive in Ukraine.”

The 31 July shelling was preceded by a week of torrential rain – loud thunderstorms and bright lightning, the likes of which I had never seen before, and with every flash in the skies I felt my body twist in preparation for the strike. And then I realised that this is the state of war in which our bodies and consciousness function. They are trying to adapt, to survive and to prepare for the next strike. To survive it all, but at what shattered cost?

1. Oleksandr Mykhed is the author of The Language of War and a member of PEN Ukraine. Translated by Maryna Gibson

Tim Zadorozhnyy

~3 minutes

This audio is created with AI assistance

Russian state-run media outlet RIA Novosti on July 30 published a column titled "There is no other option: no one should be left alive in Ukraine."

In the piece, columnist Kirill Strelnikov describes Ukrainians as "happy with their fate" and claims they are "ready to die" for what he derisively calls "the best army in the world."

The article refers to Ukrainian soldiers as "laboratory rats," denies their humanity, and includes a grotesque comment about "no need for lacy underwear for the dead."

Strelnikov repeats Kremlin propaganda lines, including the claim that Ukraine is a "military training ground" for the West and that Ukrainians are mere pawns of the U.S. and Europe.

The article dismisses Western military analyses recognizing Ukraine's battlefield gains, naming institutions like the Atlantic Council and the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and derides U.S. and U.K. generals for praising Ukraine's military.

The piece marks an escalation in Russia's dehumanizing war propaganda.

Claims that Ukrainians are "ready to die" contradict the lived reality of a population resisting an unprovoked invasion, which Moscow started back in 2014, to defend their homes and sovereignty.

This rhetoric reflects a long-standing Kremlin narrative designed to strip Ukraine of agency and portray its people as expendable.

Russia's war effort has increasingly relied on genocidal framing, echoing prior statements by state officials and propagandists that deny Ukraine's right to exist as a nation.

RIA Novosti is one of Russia's central state media arms and has consistently served as a platform for war propaganda, disinformation, and anti-Western messaging.

Strelnikov, the article's author, is a co-founder of the nationalist media project Politrussia and a frequent contributor to other Kremlin-aligned outlets. His previous articles have spread falsehoods about the war, many of which have been debunked by independent media.

‘Russia’s response to our desire for peace’ — Russian mass attack on Kyiv kills 7, including child, injures 88

“At least 10 injured children, five of them in hospitals. This was done by Russians,” Tymur Tkachenko, head of the city’s military administration, wrote in his official Telegram channel.

The Kyiv IndependentOlena Goncharova

Stav

Can you pleas provide all of us is involved:-

What they want is peace but not any price, you're deliberately ignoring the polling that is showing that the majority of Ukrainian's will not accept peace along Russia's terms. There is no indication anything else is on offer at this present time.

What is the "Russian terms" Please provide us with detailed infomation what those terms are. Some proof as to your statement involved will enlighten us all on the issue.

What you want is for Ukranians to go on dying to keep Putin in his box, so the Theme Park can continue undisturbed.

Hogwash! You've repeated this line once too often, it's become boring and stale.

Okay….fine, show me where I have used that line before Hysteria…I do so hate to be stale.

Go get it yourself......you have a knack for scratching out my old posts.

Just as I thought, why would anybody believe a poster who edits his posts to win an argument.

I'm pretty certain you have used the line that you (i.e those against Trump's proposed ceasefire/peace plan) want to Ukrainian's to keep on dying at least once before if not twice.

Nope I have argued for a while that Ukranians have no hope of improving any settlement by fighting on and so I’m for negotiating a peace. The fact that Trump is leading that effort and Europe is encouraging the Ukranians to go on dying is undeniable. But that doesn’t mean I’m supporting peace to glorify Trump, I’d be supporting it even if Macron was leading the charge.

The fact that Trump is leading that effort and Europe is encouraging the Ukranians to go on dying is undeniable.

He's not leading negotiations, he's being indulged because he's the President of the USA so other countries have to play along, but the Alaska meeting was always going to be a nothing burger after Ukraine and Europe together told Trump they would not accept any deal between the US and Russia to carve up Ukraine. Trump doesn't care about Ukraine, he simply used the Ukraine war as a tool when running for President for a second time, i.e there would of been no war in Ukraine had he been President, he could end the war in day etc, but now that he is President because of his statements on the campaign trail and also because he want's a Noble peace prize he feels compelled to try to end the war, not that he gives two fig leaf's about the people actually dying in the war. The problem is that doesn't like Zelenksy, is amenable to Putin and see no real difference between the waring sides, its utterly irrelevant to Trump that Russia invaded Ukraine and started the war, so he see's no issue trying to end the war on Russia's terms from a moral point of view (cause he doesn't have any morals, pretty much like most of his supporters) and also he views Ukraine as the weaker side so that makes them the easier side to pressure.

This is exactly the fear people had if Trump became President again and so it turned out to be. And so his defenders start parroting the MAGA lines, Ukraine has no cards, they are doomed, the risk of nuclear war is too high, blood thirsty other countries encourage Ukrainians to fight tot he last man because they won't accept the crap that Trump is trying to shovel out, all of this so they can justify Trump's proposed deals no matter what they are.

The fact is Europe is willing to support Ukraine as long as it's willing to fight on, something that Ukraine itself chooses to do. It's all very well saying polling shows most Ukrainian's want a negotiated peace, which they absolutely do but then ignoring polls that shows Ukrainian's won't accept a deal that leaves them extremely vulnerable to future Russia aggression is just disingenuousness serving political ideology. Europe are not the ones condescendingly telling the Ukrainian's we know what's best for them while they are in an existential fight for survival.

But that doesn’t mean I’m supporting peace to glorify Trump

How many posts and threads have you made recently about Trump's successes or being right. Japan trade deal, Europe trade deal, Trump on jobs. 6 conflicts he's ended. Yeah pull the other one.

I’d be supporting it even if Macron was leading the charge.

I'd support a peace deal that Ukraine supports and thinks is viable, where ever it came from, be it Trump or any other leader.

Oh great the Europeans who haven’t won a war since the inter mural Franco Prussian war, without American help, and the Brits who finally defeated a farmer army in South Africa but only by putting women and children in concentration camps….are willing to help. And the Irish having ignored the atrocities of WW2 are now holier than thou warriors?

Regardless of what’s written on a piece of paper no deal will guarantee Ukranian sovereignty, simply because of geography and Russia’s nukes. The best hope is not continuing fight and building up layer upon layer of hatred. Trump is ignoring all the European blather and trying to secure a peace. Nothing is guaranteed but he’s doing the right thing.

Oh great the Europeans who haven’t won a war since the inter mural Franco Prussian war, without American help, and the Brits who finally defeated a farmer army in South Africa but only by putting women and children in concentration camps….are willing to help. And the Irish having ignored the atrocities of WW2 are now holier than thou warriors?

Typical instead of been able to stand behind your political position we get more whataboutism, and an attempt to drag the thread off topic into a game of historical your country did this, bragging this country did that.

Regardless of what’s written on a piece of paper no deal will guarantee Ukranian sovereignty, simply because of geography and Russia’s nukes. The best hope is not continuing fight and building up layer upon layer of hatred. Trump is ignoring all the European blather and trying to secure a peace. Nothing is guaranteed but he’s doing the right thing.

A peace deal backed up by security guarantees from the west would. If the logic is geography and Russian nukes, then why not just hand the keys of all eastern Europe over to Russia?. Trump is the one that's being ignored with his farcical summit, he can blather on about securing peace but we all know plain as day it's just him trying to force Ukraine to capitulate but Ukraine and Europe have no reason to go along with it.

No I’m not taking the thread off topic, just demonstrating the hypocrisy of countries like Ireland egging the Ukranians to die for an impossible cause.

As for Trump being ignored, by the Europeans I assume, that’s not really true. But if it was it wouldn’t matter, Europe has made itself largely irrelevant in world military affairs.

Oooo, this is so much more fun than than bagging the Boks

No I’m not taking the thread off topic, just demonstrating the hypocrisy of countries like Ireland egging the Ukranians to die for an impossible cause.

You're still at, you want the thread to degenerate into a national slagging match. Debating tactics of a teenager.

As for Trump being ignored, by the Europeans I assume, that’s not really true. But if it was it wouldn’t matter, Europe has made itself largely irrelevant in world military affairs.

Trump can announce whatever deal he wants but if not's in Ukraine or Europe's interests they have no reason to go along with it. Europe may not have the military might of the US but it's not insignificant and it's being expanded at a rapid rate. Ukraine has at least enough military supplies to stay in the fight until next year. As long as the American's uphold their end of the bargain and sell Europe the weapons it can then pass onto Ukraine, then between that, European military supplies and Ukraine's own production, Ukraine can likely fight on for years.

The appeal to WW3 is funny... Liberals are so predictable and endemically racist. There will be no problem in risking WW3 to save Taiwan from the ugly China...

Liberals do as they are.

Ukraine can likely fight on for years.

And never win…as for Europe fighting independently of the US that might be the best thing that could happen to Europe, get a taste of the real world. At the risk of being accused of debating like a teenager, the last independent European military effort of significance was France in Vietnam. And once again the US had to take over.

Oh fuck the US ... let em form new alliances with their like-minded fascist brethren, Russia, Hungary & NK.

Europe supported by Canada, Australia, SKorea, Japan, NZ etc need to up the ante.

Batshit's a monster, emboldening Putin & Netanyahu ...... 3 truly evil c**nts

And never win…

You don't know that. It's just a MAGA talking point.

as for Europe fighting independently of the US that might be the best thing that could happen to Europe, get a taste of the real world.

Absolutely.

. At the risk of being accused of debating like a teenager, the last independent European military effort of significance was France in Vietnam. And once again the US had to take over.

LOL look at the useless European country loosing to a bunch of peasants...that could never happen to the mighty USA...oh wait.