Support for the war in Ukraine collapsing

The UK had a war against Argentina in the 1980s.

Russia’s reaction to Donald Trump’s summit with Vladimir Putin in Alaska has been nothing short of jubilant, with Moscow celebrating the fact that the Russian leader met his US counterpart without making concessions and now faces no sanctions despite rejecting Trump’s ceasefire demands.

“The meeting proved that negotiations are possible without preconditions,” wrote former president Dmitry Medvedev on Telegram. He added that the summit showed that talks could continue as Russia wages war in Ukraine.

Trump entered the high-stakes summit warning, “I won’t be happy if I walk away without some form of a ceasefire,” and threatening “severe consequences” if Moscow refused to cooperate.

But after a three-hour meeting with the Russian side that yielded no tangible results, Trump shelved his threats and instead insisted that the meeting was “extremely productive”, even as Putin clung to his maximalist demands for ending the war and announced no concessions on the battlefield, where Russian forces are consolidating key gains in eastern Ukraine.

LOL look at the useless European country loosing to a bunch of peasants...that could never happen to the mighty USA...oh wait

…..’loosing’ hahaha, how many times do I have to tell you it’s ‘losing’….your capacity to learn scarcely eclipses Clever Mike.

Now your point. The US never lost the Vietnam War militarily. The man power losses simply became politically unacceptable. Here’s Chat’s Summary of the US and French experiences in Vietnam:

Outcomes

1. French:
2. Catastrophic defeat at ?i?n Biên Ph? (1954) led to withdrawal under the Geneva Accords.
3. Vietnam was temporarily divided into North and South, setting the stage for the U.S. phase.
4. U.S.:
5. Withdrew combat troops in 1973 under the Paris Peace Accords.
6. South Vietnam collapsed in 1975; Saigon fell, unifying the country under communist rule.
7. Strategic failure: U.S. goals (a viable non-communist South Vietnam) were not achieved.

you’re welcome.

Here’s Chat’s Summary for your further edification:

Bottom Line

1. U.S.: Militarily sustainable, but politically untenable. Could have remained if willing to absorb casualties and political costs.
2. France: Militarily unsustainable, logistically overextended, and politically unstable at home. The Viet Minh could (and did) overwhelm French strongpoints.

Spin it anyway you want, that doesn't change the fact they still lost

Nonsense, you raised the issue to dispute military capability, it does nothing of the kind. But it was your only possible card, pity you didn’t play it very well.

Amazingly we have the standard attack on Trump that is discussed here - and whena nybody differ from he sht pred by te Trump haters is continued on site. Trump is going to require a surrender by Ukraine and the war must go on because Trump is in Putin's pocket,

The NATO Europe allies is going to stop Trump in his negotiations on the issue of the Ukraine War and will step in to help Ukraine in winning concessions from Russia on issues while they have a free hand to oppress Russian speakng people in Ukraine and a program of ethnic cleansing of Russian speaking people whose ancestors lived in Easten Ukraine from the 14th century openly advocated by the present Ukraine Regime mudt spply. ,

Does anything the site experts state is happening is true, Obviously their man sources hae detailed knowledge of what was discussed in the Alaska summit - they know all te details and the NATO leaders in Europe know nothing about it and would stop Trump in his move to force Ukraine to surrender.

So what was discussed is known in detail to the site haters of Trump. Trump is forcing Ukraine into dong what is not in the interests of the Ukraine people. In the 2019 election campaugn in Ukraine Zelenskyy got 33% of the votes and in the run-off campaign Zelenskyy promised that if he is elected he would stop te civil war in Eastern Ukraine through negotiation. so he got 72% support as a result of that promise. Did Zelelsnskyy deliver on that campaign promise? He did not and the civil war got progressiely worse,

+Why did that happen is for the historians to consider, Trump tried desperately to get peace ageements and stabilize the world situation while he was President. His main concern was to end the decades long wars in Afghanistan and Iraq through negotiations and in his meeting with Zelenskyy mentioned the issue of peace in Eastrn Ukraine - but Trump want info .from him about rampant corruption the Democratic Party leadership was involved in Ukraine.

The myth created by the Obama Administration and the Democrats was that Trump colluded with Putin in respect of the 2016 election and the Mueller Special Council team could find no proof of such election collusion actually ever existed and an Inspector General investigtion of the issue indicated falsified documentation was submitted to tje Foreign Intelligence Services Cort to get permission or te FBU and CIA to get court permission to spy on the Trump campaign. The Durham Special Council was appointed to investigate how the Russan Hoax was started and found that the issue was started by the Democatc Party supported by the FBI, In new dicuments now released for public info it came out that the FBI was part of the plot to undermine Trump in the 2016 election by leaking disiformation by the FBI and CIA through falsified info to the media, It all was part of a political con job initiated by the Obama Adinistration to stop Trump's election in 2016 and after that failed to sabotage his Presidencythrougha political coup. Problem is now a full report of the CIA on the Russian Collusion issue was declassified and released by the CIA that there were no evidence of any interference in the 2016 election camaign and that document was never made available by the CIA to any subsequent investgation involved in the Trump collusion saga, It tuned out that the allegations was part of the Biden 2020 election campaig and is still persisted with in the present negotiations into the campaign to prevent stopping of he Ukraine War and he farce was contined and used by the site idiots to start blaming Trump for "being in the pocket of Putin": and that the War mst rather continue,

It is amazing how the media and so-called Russan experts om site know the exact details discussed during the Alaska meeting and what the results would be, In their book Zelenskyy is the world leader that should decribe to the USA what their policy should be and that Trump is undermining NATO in discussions of a peaceful end to the Ukraine War. Amongst others there is a new word raised and that s that Ukraine must surrender. How that is known is really amazing, The other site angle is that European leaders do not know what is happening insofar as negotiation with Russia and Ukraine is concerned and they would stop the negotiaton process, It is obvously all BS and stretched back to the false Russian Collusion allegations of the past,

The next step after the Alaska Summit was that Zelenskyy will meet Trump in Washington on Monday and this time around he will not try - like he did in January 2025 - to instruct Trump what his Ukraine policy must be - will not be repeated on Monday. Trump and the NATO European allies are fully aware of what is going on during the Alaska meeting and will be involved in future negotations as well.

After the European leaders are informed of the esult o te emetin tomorrow the stated objectove by Trmp is for a further summit will follow involving Trump, Putin and Zelenskyy and attended as well as EU contry represnetatives where a peace sttlement in Ukraine will be dealt with, What was discussed tomorrow would be falsified by the fake media and spread on site by our local all-knowing site members. And site members advocating a peaceful settlement of the Ukraine War are all in Putin's support goup and "in his pocket",

The question is to members like SB, Stav and the ohers are what detaied info they have as to the Alaska summit and the resultant issues stemming from the Alaska meeting, Stav wants Russia to surrender to Ukraine demands and SB wants the war to continue with NATO help of the War at all costs. Amazing stuff indeed = they want the Ukraine War to continue with the eonomies of the EU countries a swell as political suppot in a disastrous mess -- for instance Germany has been in recession for three years running and the rest of Europe is in an equal situation. So the question remans - are the European people supporting an extended war against Russia in Europe or not?

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Mozart

The fact is that in 1954 France was in political turmoil and the country was invovled not only in South East Asia but also in Algeria, The Dien Bien Phu battle loss forced France out of South East India -- bu what forced the USA into a war in Vietnam a decade later,

Kennedy was nor really supporting a full scale war in Vietnam - but at the same time his policies were centrist and essentially damaged when he was vvled in the Bay of Pigs fiasco in Cuba. He and the DP at the tme was against a Communist Regime and when Russia started exporting nuclear arms to Cuba he acted against it and forced the Russians to stop them from using Cuba as a means to attack the USA from a counry only 90 plus kilometers away from Florida. Kennedy and his political opponent in the 1964 election Goldwater were close friends and allies in many ways. Goldwater was the person who acted decisively to bring Blacks and Hispanics into the US Defense Force and the situation was so close that Kennedy and Goldwater decided to hold joint camapgn meetings to prevent decisive poltical political division in the USA.

In teh USA elements of the Democratc Party - especially in the Southern States was against some of Keennedy's policies and te division politically was destabiilzed b Kennedy's assassnation in 1963 and he rise in power of the corrupt Johnson as President, Under Kennedy there was politial advancement for the Black and Hispanics but unemployment was rife and the economy in deep trouble - but under Johnson it was not advisable to continue with economic policies that did not enhance growh in the employment opportunities in the USA. The War in Vietnam was effectively started in 1964 and ws used o increase massively the military arms industry and drafted unemployed into te US Army. In a major way the US Arms industry nt nly amed the South Vietnam army they provde arms to Nrth Vietnam as well.and unemployed Blacks also was forced into hee arm to fight in South Vietnam. The War became unpopular and Johnsn was known fr corruption and ddeided not to seek re-election in 1968 and Tricky Dick Nixon was ekeced as President with eh Democrats in majrity in both he House and Senate.

The present system of ultra-politial dision between leftists and center right politics started. Carter ws the same type of Presdent as Obama turned out to be. The difference was Carter was an honest gentleman and real liberal - but he waas weak and accepted the rise of the Ayatollah regime in Iran - which is still a major issue in ME politics, Carter amde a disastros mess of economic policies and that coupled with the attack of the Iran Ayatollah Regas well as a mission to save the embassy staf turned into a dsastrous fiasco, eagan won the election n 1980 and for the first for years of Reagan's presidency heir were Democratc Party maprtoes in the Huse and Senate - with both parties being centrist in aproach.

However, Clinton became President in 1992 the situation changed drastially and political divide in the USA becae pronounced, Bill Clinton became a corrupt crook and a sexist BSter. He and his wife esstablised he Clinton Foundatin which were supposed to be used for funding of humanitarian aid purposes - bt were used for the Clinton enrichment.purposes, The Presdency was a disaster - but he ws followed by BUsh Junor as President and after the 9/11 disaster firs decide to attack Afgahstan and i 2003 Iraq.- who n the 198's ws the closest ally of the USA in he Middle East, Both were disasters in the making for the USA and cost the USA trillions.

Economically the USA federal debt in 2020 was $368 billion dollars, When Bush left the Presidency n 2009 it ws $9,trilion. The First War in Iraq was started because Hussein went rogue in 1992 and attacke Kuwait. In 2003 the Second Iraq War started based on lies about Iraq aving weapons of mass destruction which Iraq never had. The story ws that Iaaq was developing a nucear arsenal - but he facilities used by Iraq was wiped out by Israel in an air attack in 2002 and Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. Hussein had to be eliminated at all cost and the USA hd to gt in control of its oil supply - that ws the real reasns for he war, Mismanagement of the economy caused a financial disaster in 2007-08 and Obama won the 2008 Presidential election.

Like Carter Obama was a financial disaster fo the USA - but ulike Carter he was cvprrupt as well. Unde his Presidency of 8 years the US Federal Debt increased from #9 trillion to $19,5 trillion. Oama hiself became a Senator in 2004 and declare his personal property and assets as $100 000 - by 2008 his assets increased to $3,5 million nd when he elft the Presidency it was $32 million he used to buy 5 mansions in the USA - but he start living like a millionare befoe he signed Nerflix and book contracts, Obama ws a political riogue that starte real division politically in the USA and he did find two orgaizations to keep the Blacks nder political cntrol ad loyalty to the Democratic Party - BLM - and Antifa to keep control of the younger generation. He politiczed the US Federal Govement by appointing Democratic Party lyalists in top and midle manageent in the Pblic Service and it gradually led to the total politization of the Federal Public Servie, BLM and Antifa was funded by the ederal Government and Obama's idea was to ensure that Democrats control the SA politically during he whole 21st century.

That brings me to the Ukraine sitation that was started by the USA fianancing it in 2014 with a coup. That had another angle to it, It became a totally corrupt situation with politicians like Biden and Clinton making millions out of corruption in Ukraine. .In the process the FBI and CIA was used by Obama to undermine he first Preidency of Trump through lies and thatcreated the impression of people that Trmp somehow was in the pcket of Putin and used by him to support Russia in the Ukraine War. I was politcally a dishonest method to udermine Trump - but it is also a method to try and pevent tehw ar to be ended and potential exposure of corruption n te Democatci Party leadership in Washington.

How bad was the Biden Presidency for the USA? In the first instance Biden in four years equalled the increase ad broke all the records set by Bush Junior when it comes to pushing up the US Federal debt by $10 trillion in 4 yeas time. Trillions went int maladministration and ovrnment political corruption and the problem is that both Putin and Zelenskyy knows where the money went. Biden is gone - but other corpt USA poltican are still around and needs protection. Biden or the Autopen decided to try and stop and prevent investigation of ciminal activities involving both political and bureacratic apparatsics hence the Ukrane War mst go on at full strength and the War must not be stopped and SA corruption must go on unabated or stopped in its tracks.

Any peace talks and ending of he War is hated by elements in the USA and in the media worldwide and he real situation is for th war to continue at all costs, Zelenskyy is as dishonest as any of the Bidens Crime Family is and th end fo the War may let to his downfall as poltician and his won corruption would be exposed - so now te emdia is concentrating n Trump being an agent of Putin in the Washingtonm poltical scene - a situation also found on this site - an end to the war wld nit be spported since too man rogues stillbenefot from that war and mst not end up in jail all of whicch is t be rotected by accsing Trump of being n the side Putin - somehing he enver was and never will be.

Ye USA is nw divded between te Ultra-left comtrolling the Demcratic Party and the centrists in US politics and the Ultra-left has the support of some elements in the media and heonly way tey ave is to prolong the War an prevent investigation of corruption in the USA.

I wold much rather see an end to the Ukraine War for humantarian reasons - but lives lost in Ukraine is no problem for the warmongers in political elements in the USA and Ukraine. So the kraine War must go on and even worsened than it already is because he emdia tells them so. Mozart referred to the Vietnam ar - but there is zero diference about what was driing the Vietnam War and what is involved in the resent Ukraine War. Both were driven by Government corruption in the USA and in Vietnam and Ukraine and never was in teh interests of the eople worldwide, Another exmple is the continuous wars between Azerbayan and Armenia hat Putin sided with Azerbaya. Apeace reaty in that War wsa siged without muc nfare in Washington last week.

If the Ukraine epace agreement is signed t ould leave thew rld wit two unstable areas - namely he Middle East and the South China Sea and Korea. Both will have to be stabilized and for that reason the USA must be politically amd militarally strong. Trump is already in negotiations with Syria - on insistence of Turkey - to separate the new Syrian Regime from Iran and its sponsored terrorism worldwide pogram and it could be stopped by all means possible before Trump's Presidency end in January 2029. For that prpsoe a stronger NATO is essential and Trump has forced NATO members t increase t heir Defese spending - while increasing US Defense spending.

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Nonsense, you raised the issue to dispute military capability, it does nothing of the kind. But it was your only possible card, pity you didn’t play it very well.

Again with the gaslighting, your the one who claimed Europe was irrelevant when it comes to global military affairs, a statement born out of ignorance. Europe is the 2nd biggest arm's exporter in the world with 25% market share. It's deeply involved in the manufacturing of advanced weapons systems such as the F-35. While its armies range in size and capability, with some being quite small, most are highly professional and technically very advanced and while on the whole the US military is larger and more technically advanced, their is some European weaponry that is technically superior to their American equivalent, such as self propelled artillery. And a lot of them have been involved in America's war various (the NATO Libyan intervention was primary a French/British drive initiative) which gives them some combat experience, which is more than can be said than for most other countries around the world. And while yes they don't experience of the type of combat that's going on in Ukraine, neither do the yanks in that regard.

This is typical MAGA arrogance and contradictions. You demand Europe step up and do more while at the same time berating them and saying they can't do anything without the USA.

But again it's all diversion to cover for Trump trying to sell out Ukraine.

Who really sold out Uraine? Start thinkng for a change and it goes back to 2014 and was a scheme of Democat politicians to enhance corruption. Just think about it - when Biden or whoever used he autopen the pardon was from 1 Demeber 2014 to 1 December 2024. Why should that have been?

First of all in Ukraine Biden, Pelosia nd Schiff were part of the political corruption syndicate that got rich from moaney dnated by the USA Government in Ukraine - the most corrupt country in Europe at teh time and still is the same. But it was not only in Ukraine - it was also corruption in Russia and in China that really caused relationship problems for teh USA workdwide.

Both Clinton and her campaign manager Podesta were involved in corruption in Ukraine and Russia - wh ile the Biden was invovled in corrption innvolvng Ukraine and China. The had the FBI on their side and corruption was never investigated by them. They had he documentaion - even advices by the banks thta he Biden crime fdamily was money-landering and that both Clinton and Podesta was on the pay roll of the Russians - but that was not investigated either. Senior US politicians - not only Democrats - but also some Republicans were on teh payroll of the Russians and the Chinese.

Corruption was the key to the Ukraine Civil War and the subsequent and resultant Russian Invasion of Ukraine. In a European Security Council meeting in Geneva in October 2021 Putin met Biden and during the meeting it was recorded that he asked Biden to arrange a conferene to deal with the Civil War in Eastern Ukraine that was reaching a bigger problem by 2021. Biden did not understand or know what was discussed and his Autopen refused to get such a conference going.

That was not the last effort to stop the Ukraine War. After the Russians invaded the area to the North of Kiev, the Trukish Government tried to arrange a cease fire agreement and the Ukraine foreign minister demanded as a pre-condition for discussions to witfdrew the ussian troops from Ukraine threatening Kiev. It was done within 14 das and all Russan troops left the area within 14 days and retreated into Russia and Byelo. The cease coference started and after serious dofficulties a cease ore agreement as reached. At hat sage Blnken instructed the Ukraine foreign Minsiter to leave Istanbul n the same day and to not initial any draft agreement to be considered by Presidents Zelenmskyy and Putin. That instructionm started the real war in Ukraine. There wer no real battles fought.beore he cease fire conference in Istanbul and the result of the US Goernment is ntruction was clear.

It entailed he moving of troops defending Kiev to Eastern Ukraine and the ussias knew exactly what h appened - so theymoved heir wn army to Eastern Ukraine and te real vicious and destruc tive war started then. Like in the case of the Russian Hoax the CIA started spreading major propganda about the reasons for the war. It include the Bucha story where bodies were "discovered" a week after the Russians left the area and the lie was confirmeed when sattelite photos indicated no bodies lying in the street for a week after the Russian troops left the area. The propaganda BS lasted and you still believe it.

So what happened after the initial Russian invasion. Biden promised to rovide $40 billion in military aif to Ukraine and arms were colleced from US bases world wide and sent to Ukraine. Six months after delivey of arms started it was revealed and in ct allegations made previously n media in Europe in a Senate hearing by Defense Fore officials that the 30% delivery to the Ukrane Army that yjr 30% reaching the Ukraine Army in EAstern Ukraine was true and that the S Army was posting a US Army Colonel to stop te rot. Nobody was ever charged with te corruption involved either in the USA or in Ukraine - but it is clear that over $30 billion in milierya id was lost through corruption.

In Kiev the result was the disharge of the commander of the fighting army in Eastern Ukraine - the real culprit was the ex-commander of the Azov Brigade that was then Minitter of Defense in the Zelenskyy Government and it was known in the emdia as well. But Zelenskyy could not fiire him and he qquestion reamns why.not. On the first day of the Russian Invasion of raine the US House past a law that entiled Biden to release $1 billion to the Ukraine Government and three days later Pelosi and Schiff took the money to Kiev. Nobody nows what that money was used for, An allegation surfaced that Zelenskyy invested the money in FTX from where at least $70 million wnt to eh DNC for election expenmses in teh 2022 election.- where he rest went nobody knows.- but that eneds to eb investigated as well in future, However, a week ofafter thatd elivery Zelenskyy wife was caught n the Hungarian border with $19 million n cash in the car,. The Hu garian Government took the money and invest it in an account that is still held in Hungary.

So who caused he present situation in Ukraine - probably the corrupt US Government and the equally corrupt Ukraine Government. The war ould ahve beens topped near to 3 years a go - but it was not.and the wuestion remans why not.

The refrain is now the same - who is trying to stop the war nd ho wants the mst corupt war in the history of the USA to continue, You ind he eal answer and srrender by Ukraine is never going to happen.

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To paraphrase an old quote the EU will resist Russia to the last Ukranian.

To paraphrase a tankie you mean.

Noam Chomsky is that you?

The West’s Awake….the West’s Awake!

‘Hold on do you mean we have to actually fight….cant we just sing.’

Sing, Oh! Hurrah! Let Russia quake!

We'll sing till death for Brussel’s sake

ROFL.

https://ibb.co/KxcR7pry

The policy of neutralitywas adopted by Ireland's Oireachtas at the instigation of the Taoiseach Éamon de Valera upon the outbreak of World War II in Europe. It was maintained throughout the conflict, in spite of several German air raidsby aircraft that missed their intended British targets, and attacks on Ireland's shipping fleet by Allies and Axis alike.

Ireland maintained a public stance of neutrality to the end by refusing to close the German and Japanese Legations. The Taoiseach Éamon de Valera personally visited Ambassador Hempel at his home in Dún Laoghaire on 2 May 1945 to express official condolences on the death of German dictator Adolf Hitler,

LOL whataboutism overdrive.

Ffs. stop the ducking diving deflecting diverting deluding obfuscation

Okay….here it is, support for Ukraine. You might want to check out where NZ and Ireland rank. The hypocrisy is sickening:

Jul 26, 2025, 17:02

Estonia….2.34%

Denmark…2.32%

At the top the best examples of 2 groups, the Eastern European countries closest to the conflict and the Scandinavians with their high GNP per capita.

United States 0.53%

Great Britain 0.52%

Germany 0.44%

France 0.19%

Global top 10 GNP economies, led by the US, the furthest from the conflict

Switzerland 0.13%

Italy 0.12%

Spain 0.11%

Countries in Europe that could have done better

‘Australia 0.07%

Ireland 0.04%

NZ 0.03%

So we accept criticism but not from countries that are giving less than a tenth of what we are giving per capita. Ireland as a European country once again fails to walk the talk,

The US led by an unhinged authoritarian quasi-fascist dictatorial leader & one who's clearly in Russia's corner. How disgusting.. Lower than sharkshit.

Xmas came early for Putin & Netanyahu ... the odious twosome going apeshit with the blessings of POTUS Batshit

Sevgil Musaieva, the editor of Ukrainian Pravda, said in a column published on Sunday: “We are being forced to behave as if we have to admit defeat. Not military, but political. Not a surrender of arms, but a surrender of thought.”

She said this was “the most dangerous form of defeat. Because if we accept it internally then external defeat will only be a matter of time.” In fact, “for the first time in a century, Ukrainians put up a worthy resistance,” she said.

“We have no right to forget Bucha, Izium, Mariupol. We have no right to forget the torture, the mass graves, the children killed and abducted by Russia,” she said, arguing that “without memory we will lose ourselves”.

Oleksii Kovzhun, a popular Kyiv-based video blogger, said Putin’s demands were “akin to capitulation” and that “Zelenskyy could not legally hand over Donetsk even if he would want to (and he does not)” because it would have to be subject to a referendum. “Ukrainians will not allow it,” he said.

Batshit Brain - BB

There are a few differences and you must bear that in mind.-

The unconstitutional coup in Ukraine leading to the destruction of democracy of Ukraine in 2014 have left the Ukraine into a real dictatorship removing all civil liberties and replacing freedom with a dictatorial regime.

Fighting as allies of the Nazi's by the Ukrainians in WW2 also had consequences not forgoyern by the Russians, , .

Batshit Brain - BB

There are a few differences and you must bear that in mind.-

The unconstitutional coup in Ukraine leading to the destruction of democracy of Ukraine in 2014 have left the Ukraine into a real dictatorship removing all civil liberties and replacing freedom with a dictatorial regime.

Fighting as allies of the Nazi's by the Ukrainians in WW2 also had consequences not forgoyern by the Russians, , .

Blob you will always find somebody who coincides with your point of view. That doesn’t make it right. Putin would not be so recalcitrant if he thought he was losing.

As for the aid, the US is giving more than any other country and as a percentage of GNP per capita a surrogate for average income, it’s ahead of most countries in Europe except for Scandinavia which is closer to the issue and a few exceptions like Holland. But it’s much more their problem than our problem

Maybe it will be a failed peace effort, in which case Ukraine will suffer even more. But let’s wait and see, there are plenty of pressures on the Trump administration to do this with care.

And enough with the ‘bat shit’ nonsense. Things are going remarkably well in the US.

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So we accept criticism but not from countries that are giving less than a tenth of what we are giving per capita. Ireland as a European country once again fails to walk the talk,

The constant whataboutism. Ignoring the fact the criticism of Trump's approach is coming from virtually all European countries who collectively have given more aid to Ukraine than the USA and ignoring the even more sicking hypocrisy is all this bragging and constant demands of being thanked from Trump supporters about US aid is that all the US aid came from the Biden administration, not the Trump administration who may well have never given a cent had they been in power when the war started, but even if say some countries haven't done enough that doesn't excuse Trump's attempt to force Ukraine to surrender.

Blob you will always find somebody who coincides with your point of view. That doesn’t make it right. Putin would not be so recalcitrant if he thought he was losing.

It's far more than somebody, its the majority of Ukrainians.

the US is giving more than any other country and as a percentage of GNP per capita a surrogate for average income

Averaging things comes with consequences and most of the times, liberals do not complement it as needed. But this, using the GNP per capita as a surrogate for average income... Average income exists, it may be used....

It's far more than somebody, its the majority of Ukrainians.

Nope the Gallup poll clearly shows 70% of the country favors negotiations and peace. They have no political agenda and they are experienced.

KiIs is a Ukranian pollster that is functioning in a country at war and their findings are consequential to the war effort. I asked Chat if it was possible that the way they framed questions, phrases that were designed to provoke a response, could have influenced the result…..

‘So yes — KIIS’s design choices almost certainly shaped the outcome in ways useful to Ukraine’s negotiating stance.That doesn’t mean the data are fake; rather, the framing was crafted to measure (and highlight) resolve, not fatigue.’

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so who do we believe, the pollsters in a country at war or the world’s premier pollster.

so who do we believe, the pollsters in a country at war or the world’s premier pollster.

Both, they are not mutually exclusive.

Okay….so who asked the questions in a neutral way, not provoking a response.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy has consistently rejected giving up any territory under Kyiv’s control, making Donbas one of the defining faultlines of the peace talks. The idea is also deeply unpopular at home: about 75% of Ukrainians oppose formally ceding any land to Russia, according to polling by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology.

And the Gallup poll says:

Gallup (July 2025):

Asked a broad, abstract question — “should we negotiate as soon as possible” vs. “continue fighting until victory.” Result: 69% favored negotiations.

? Captures war weariness in general terms.

Catch a wake up Blob that’s what the question is, who is right. And Chat when prompted agrees the Kyiv Institute has to be concerned about the effect any poll might have on the war effort.

My poll referenced ceding of land

about 75% of Ukrainians oppose formally ceding any land to Russia

Your poll re negotiations

should we negotiate as soon as possible” vs. “continue fighting until victory.” Result: 69% favored negotiations.

Catch a wake up Blob that’s what the question is, who is right. And Chat when prompted agrees the Kyiv Institute has to be concerned about the effect any poll might have on the war effort.

All your doing is dismissing the poll that you don't like without any credible reason to do so. Even Chat says KIIS is a credible pollster that is transparent about its methodology and despite being Ukrainian is an independent organisation, not affiliated with the government or any political party.

You can ask chat if there is any reason to doubt the Gallup polls on Ukraine and it will also say yes while Gallup is a highly respected pollster it also can get biased results just to social pressure or framing of questions.

?? Reasons to Treat Gallup's Ukraine Polling with Caution

1. Access Limitations in Conflict Zones

1. Gallup does not survey people in Russian-occupied territories, nor refugees abroad unless specified. This excludes millions of displaced or directly affected individuals.
2. Occupied Donbas, Crimea, and parts of Zaporizhzhia and Kherson are typically omitted, which can bias results toward more pro-Ukrainian responses.

2. Displacement Distorts Sampling

1. More than 6 million Ukrainians were displaced during the war. Many remain outside the country or in temporary housing.
2. Surveys done inside Ukraine may underrepresent displaced populations, who may have distinct views on peace, security, or returning home.

3. Social Desirability Bias

1. Like all polling in wartime, there’s a risk of respondents giving answers they think are patriotic or expected—especially on issues like territorial integrity or support for the military.
2. This can suppress honest expressions of war fatigue or willingness to compromise.

4. Question Wording & Framing

1. Gallup sometimes uses broad terms like “peace through negotiation,” “victory,” or “concessions” without defining what they entail (e.g., which territory? under what guarantees?).
2. These ambiguities can lead to inconsistent interpretations by respondents.

As I've said I've no reason to doubt either poll, they both are most likely broadly correct. Ukrainian's want peace through negotiations but that doesn't mean they are willing to accept peace on any terms.

I agree there are probably structural issues with the Gallup poll as well. The difference is Gallup has no reason to bias the result one way or the other and a huge financial downside if this is discovered.

KIIS is Ukranian and Ukraine is fighting for its existence. They would naturally be aware of the consequences of any poll they conduct. Not by misrepresenting data, but as Chat agrees by framing the question, or perhaps avoiding the question.

I also don’t believe it’s simply a different question being asked….these two polls suggest very different attitudes. And I am more confident with Gallup, because their tracking is totally consistent over 3 years and they have no inherent bias.

They are not different attitudes.

Yes Ukraine wants a negotiated peace, but it still has to be on terms they can accept.

brilliant

HTF. can an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation be rewarded by giving the genocidal invaders uncaptured land, or when I think about it, any land whatsoever?

Putin's goal's the total subjugation of Ukraine & replacing Zelensky with a pro Russian puppet.

Fuck em all.

I agree there are probably structural issues with the Gallup poll as well. The difference is Gallup has no reason to bias the result one way or the other and a huge financial downside if this is discovered.

Of course they have. Liberals struggle with the society as they have shaped it. Polls usually reflect the expectations of people who order and pay for them. A satisfied customer is a happy customer. It is a trade issue. Could be easily checked a few years ago on supposedly extremely divisive points like immigration.

Depending on the entity that ordered it, a poll gave different outcomes and this within weeks. A country was reported as being pro and anti immigration. Checking this also allowed to see that this immigration issue was not a partisan issue, in a country, the left could oppose immigration while in another country, the right could oppose immigration. No convictions at all, only circumstances.

Division is essential to liberalism. Other regimes in the past look for unity. But liberals came up and claimed they had found a new way to govern. Division is part of the liberal game. A public opinion standard is provided to the population which is going to split over the matter, oppose to each other and there the balance of power is played, the strongest group will prevail for some time. Correction of the public opinion does not matter. So it does not matter whether the Ukrainians support the war or not, what matters is the group that is going to prevail.

First read ... Batshit2;

1950 replies

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

It is very hard, if not impossible, to win a war without attacking an invaders country. It’s like a great team in sports that has a fantastic defense, but is not allowed to play offense. There is no chance of winning! It is like that with Ukraine and Russia. Crooked and grossly incompetent Joe Biden would not let Ukraine FIGHT BACK, only DEFEND. How did that work out? Regardless, this is a war that would have NEVER happened if I were President - ZERO CHANCE. Interesting times ahead!!! President DJT

then this :

Wall Street Journal says move is part of Trump administration’s effort to get Putin into peace talksTrump told Time magazine that the decision to allow Ukraine to use US weapons systems to attack targets inside Russia had been a mistake.

“I disagree very vehemently with sending missiles hundreds of miles into Russia. Why are we doing that? We’re just escalating this war and making it worse. That should not have been allowed to be done,” he said.

Batshit2 remains firmly in Putin's corner