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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  The unbeaten winner in war

The unbeaten winner in war

Started by Pakie31 REPLIES621 VIEWS· 25 Apr 2023, 09:05
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PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
25 Apr 2023, 09:05
#1
25 Apr 2023, 09:05#1

There is legislation pending in Congress that indicates that the U.S. government believes the Ukraine war may continue for years. On October 11, the Senate Armed Services Committee submitted its amended draft of the National Defense Authorization Act for 2023. Nestled within the draft is a provision that would establish an “emergency” multiyear plan to award massive defense contracts to Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, BAE Systems, and other war corporations to produce weapons for Ukraine and to “replenish” U.S. stockpiles [..]

It is often said that in war there are no winners. But that has never really been true, certainly not in modern U.S. wars. From Vietnam to Korea, and Iraq to Afghanistan, the winner has always been the same. That victor also prevailed in the Cold War and will most certainly do so again throughout this new cold war that is being rapidly ushered into existence. The winner is the war industry.


https://theintercept.com/2022/11/30/ukraine-war-weapons-ndaa/

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
25 Apr 2023, 15:52
#2
25 Apr 2023, 15:52#2

The US Industrial Military Complex has to have wars to be fed and has been the main reason why it seeks opportunities to create uprisings, coup d'estats and minor wars. It has neglected the need to face major conflict, an over site that some US military personnel confess.

The Russian Military Complex (originally a solely state owned entity in USSR) is now partly privatised, their sales mainly at present to Syria. Russia has been stock piling for years and huge reserves, albeit some are old models, but still good. In a war of attrition where territory gain is only of temporary strategic value, the emphasis is destruction of enemies and equipment, whilst minimising casualties, not holding territory of no value.

Who has the best, well both sides have strengths and weaknesses.

Col Doug Macgregor and Brian Berletic says Russia's type of weaponry is best suited to full scale war, whilst USA has slipped up in this and produced weapons mainly but not entirely for minor conflicts.

The trouble is full scale war will end with Nuclear and yes, it is the end and we will all die.

Just an article written, don't know if it says much but,

https://www.quora.com/Whose-weapons-are-better-Americans-or-Russians

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
25 Apr 2023, 16:18
#3
25 Apr 2023, 16:18#3

you don't say...who woulda thought?

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
25 Apr 2023, 16:56
#4
25 Apr 2023, 16:56#4

Wake up World...this is NOT a game.

Possibility, if it's not late.

It looks like SA will be temporary safe but fall out with eventually kill us all.

https://youtu.be/2jy3JU-ORpo

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
25 Apr 2023, 17:51
#5
25 Apr 2023, 17:51#5

and what the hell was US, John McCain and Nuland doing in the Ukraine in Dec 2013...thousands of miles away poking their filthy noses in the Ukraine...it was absolutely none of their business, absolutely no right whatsoever. Who the hell does this scum think they are? The trouble did not start last year. Russia was fast asleep they should have stepped in then and thrown them out. The fools still think Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022 when they interceded 8 years too late.

Neither the domestic opposition nor Washington and its European Union allies behaved in that fashion. Instead, Western leaders made it clear that they supported the efforts of demonstrators to force Yanukovych to reverse course and approve the EU agreement or, if he would not do so, to remove the president before his term expired. Sen. John McCain (R?AZ), the ranking Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, went to Kiev to show solidarity with the Euromaidan activists. McCain dined with opposition leaders, including members of the ultra right??wing Svoboda Party, and later appeared on stage in Maidan Square during a mass rally. He stood shoulder to shoulder with Svoboda leader Oleg Tyagnibok.

But McCain’s actions were a model of diplomatic restraint compared to the conduct of Victoria Nuland, the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs. As Ukraine’s political crisis deepened, Nuland and her subordinates became more brazen in favoring the anti??Yanukovych demonstrators. Nuland noted in a speech to the U.S.-Ukraine Foundation on December 13, 2013, that she had traveled to Ukraine three times in the weeks following the start of the demonstrations. Visiting the Maidan on December 5, she handed out cookies to demonstrators and expressed support for their cause.

The extent of the Obama administration’s meddling in Ukraine’s politics was breathtaking. Russian intelligence intercepted and leaked to the international media a Nuland telephone call in which she and U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Geoffey Pyatt discussed in detail their preferences for specific personnel in a post??Yanukovych government. The U.S?favored candidates included Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the man who became prime minister once Yanukovych was ousted from power. During the telephone call, Nuland stated enthusiastically that “Yats is the guy” who would do the best job.

Nuland and Pyatt were engaged in such planning at a time when Yanukovych was still Ukraine’s lawful president. It was startling to have diplomatic representatives of a foreign country—and a country that routinely touts the need to respect democratic processes and the sovereignty of other nations—to be scheming about removing an elected government and replacing it with officials meriting U.S. approval.

Washington’s conduct not only constituted meddling, it bordered on micromanagement. At one point, Pyatt mentioned the complex dynamic among the three principal opposition leaders, Yatsenyuk, Oleh Tyahnybok, and Vitali Klitschko. Both Pyatt and Nuland wanted to keep Tyahnybok and Klitschko out of an interim government. In the former case, they worried about his extremist ties; in the latter, they seemed to want him to wait and make a bid for office on a longer??term basis. Nuland stated that “I don’t think Klitsch should go into the government. I don’t think it’s necessary.” She added that what Yatseniuk needed “is Klitsch and Tyanhybok on the outside.”

The two diplomats also were prepared to escalate the already extensive U.S. involvement in Ukraine’s political turbulence. Pyatt stated bluntly that “we want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help to midwife this thing [the political transition].” Nuland clearly had Vice President Joe Biden in mind for that role. Noting that the vice president’s national security adviser was in direct contact with her, Nuland related that she told him “probably tomorrow for an atta??boy and to get the details to stick. So Biden’s willing.”

Both the Obama administration and most of the American news media portrayed the Euromaidan Revolution as a spontaneous, popular uprising against a corrupt and brutal government.

A February 24, 2014, Washington Post editorial celebrated the Maidan demonstrators and their successful campaign to overthrow Yanukovych. The “moves were democratic,” the Washington Post concluded, and “Kiev is now controlled by pro??Western parties.”

It was a grotesque distortion to portray the events in Ukraine as a purely indigenous, popular uprising. The Nuland??Pyatt telephone conversation and other actions confirm that the United States was considerably more than a passive observer to the turbulence. Instead, U.S. officials were blatantly meddling in Ukraine. Such conduct was utterly improper. The United States had no right to try to orchestrate political outcomes in another country—especially one on the border of another great power. It is no wonder that Russia reacted badly to the unconstitutional ouster of an elected, pro??Russian government—an ouster that occurred not only with Washington’s blessing, but apparently with its assistance.

That episode, as well as earlier ones involving Italy, France and other democratic countries, should be kept in mind the next time U.S. political leaders or the media publicly fume about Russia’s apparent interference in America’s 2016 elections. One can legitimately condemn some aspects of Moscow’s behavior, but the force of America’s moral outrage is vitiated by the stench of U.S. hypocrisy.


ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
25 Apr 2023, 19:20
#6
25 Apr 2023, 19:20#6

The winner is the war industry.

Well then maybe the Russian's should just end the war and go home. No war, nothing for the war industry to gorge on.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
25 Apr 2023, 19:27
#7
25 Apr 2023, 19:27#7

"Well then maybe the Russian's should just end the war and go home. No war, nothing for the war industry to gorge on."

He won't,  Putin bows to the same master.


ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
25 Apr 2023, 22:31
#8
25 Apr 2023, 22:31#8

He won't,  Putin bows to the same master.

Really and how did they make him invade Ukraine?


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
26 Apr 2023, 04:42
#9
26 Apr 2023, 04:42#9

Aware of ot or not, deliberately or not, he is feeding the war machine and some very rich people are getting even richer...the puppet masters know no shame...there are no coincidences. 

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
26 Apr 2023, 05:27
#10
26 Apr 2023, 05:27#10

Semantics ....................... ffs Putin's an evil piece of KGB indoctrinated shit. A true cnt of a man.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
26 Apr 2023, 05:45
#11
26 Apr 2023, 05:45#11

Even worse people manipulating him...and the reaction to him...war is good business for some and the earth runs red with blood.

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
26 Apr 2023, 06:31
#12
26 Apr 2023, 06:31#12

Ou Draad it is fruitless arguing with programmed robots. Kangaroo court mentality that judge according to false perception, that claim they know everything about others they have never met or know and never had the reasonable attitude to look at things by placing themselves in others shoes, and not interested in context but ideologies and weak raging emotions. To even answer them is indeed foolishness.

Truth always comes out eventually don't worry...these poor souls don't care...there is an Omnipotent Power that sees everything, you know that, even the thoughts and intentions of all men.

The moral status of this world is a bottomless pit and we are entering a stage where we are powerless to do anything to change it, as rage and hatred are fed by liars of the most abominable type.

If we are certain of our relationship with our great Redeemer and made our peace with Him, we have very little to worry about. This is not too late, it is Grace given to all men and women...we can only pray...it is the strongest weapon of all.

 

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
26 Apr 2023, 06:51
#13
26 Apr 2023, 06:51#13
Putin is evil. COVID kills everyone. Trump is fat. ...that's about as far as these guys can think. It's why copy and paste is the order of the day.
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
26 Apr 2023, 07:08
#14
26 Apr 2023, 07:08#14

He invaded a sovereign state for gawdaloneknowswhy ............. how does an uber nazi-style blitzkrieg on a 'special operation' to denazify a neighbour  make any sense?

Someone please kill the shit...

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
26 Apr 2023, 07:12
#15
26 Apr 2023, 07:12#15
Please end your statements Putin is evil, Blo. Else we might not know it's you.
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
26 Apr 2023, 07:37
#16
26 Apr 2023, 07:37#16

Aware of ot or not, deliberately or not, he is feeding the war machine and some very rich people are getting even richer...the puppet masters knows no shame...there are no coincidences.

It must be great have these vague unproveable conspiracy theories you can lean on.

Unfortunately they do not make a whole lot of sense. While the armament industry is a major employer in Russia and makes a significant contribution to the overall Russian economy, its dwarfed by the energy sector which as you know by now has seen significant reductions in overall energy sales. Far higher numbers of rich Russian's have lost considerably wealth than those who have gained wealth. Overall the Russian state has become poorer not richer because of this war.

Unless your saying the armament industry is actually the real power in Russia and they have full control over Putin. As in Valdamir Putin the former KGB agent who has had the Russian security agencies kill several of his political opponents and has demonstrated control over the Russian military in the way he promoted, demoted and fired senior Russian military personal.

Ou Draad it is fruitless arguing with programmed robots.

Oh so you agree with Draad the Putin was/is being manipulated into war by the Russian military industrial complex?


DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
26 Apr 2023, 08:10
#17
26 Apr 2023, 08:10#17

"gawdaloneknowswhy ............. how does an uber nazi-style blitzkrieg on a 'special operation' to denazify a neighbour  make any sense?"


It doesn't make any sense, unless he's stupid, evil and insane and his whole inner circle with him...I don't think we've got all the facts, but I can't think of any good hidden reasons for his war either...it makes absolutely no sense at all.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
26 Apr 2023, 08:51
#18
26 Apr 2023, 08:51#18

"It must be great have these vague unproveable conspiracy theories you can lean on."

I'm speculating because there's no logical reason for the invasion.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
26 Apr 2023, 09:32
#19
26 Apr 2023, 09:32#19
It doesn't make any sense, unless he's stupid, evil and insane and his whole inner circle with him.
To me the most logical train of thought, is that Putin genuinely believes there is a threat from NATO, the West is not to be trusted, that the US was behindd the 2014 revolution in Ukraine and that Ukraine really is a part of Russia and by taking Ukraine he's restoring Russia to great power status. The stuff of about Nazi's in Ukraine is bullshit and he knows it, he's just using that to rally the Russian population by invoking the memory of WWII.

Putin has made a number of geopolitical moves that payed off in the past. He took just enough not to provoke the west into serious actions against Russia. He thought the same thing would happen with his latest actions but miscalculated. Even if the west did want to respond Ukraine would fall so quickly they wouldn't be able to directly effect what was happening on the ground. He thought the Ukrainian's would not resist, hence the size of the force sent into Ukraine wasn't sufficient for subduing them when the Ukrainian's resolved to fight, and the west had time to get over their own divisions to get military support to Ukraine. He also underestimated the scale of the economic sanctions leveled against Russia. So the war isn't going well for him, but he won't end the war because that could compromise the stability of his regime.
So it's not not Putin is stupid or insane, but he has certainly miscalculated badly this time. Is he evil...well he doesn't give a shit about the number of causalities on either side. He wants Ukraine or at least a significant chunk of it and he's well to just throw bodies at the problem and keep the war going until he hopes the west stop supporting Ukraine. He doesn't feel he has any option but to keep going, because backing down could be the end of him.



SE
SebPro2,680 posts
26 Apr 2023, 13:49
#20
26 Apr 2023, 13:49#20

When people say there are no Neo Nazis in Ukraine shows a part of ignorance, virtually all if not most of Azov regiment combatants that surrendered in Mariupol siege were littered with tattoos that bored images of swastikas, the dark angel and even images of Hitler and Bandera. Do you want to borrow my glasses?

Besides, articles and you tube videos posted by your beloved "bible" the Guardian published and posted a batch prior to 2013 highlighting this concern.

Also I have it out of people, who left Ukraine who we know for Russia, they were stopped just before the border. Her husband was arrested and forced to join Ukrainian army. He was torn away from his wife and 2 children. They were harassed and eventually she and kids allowed to cross. She still has not heard from him and he might well be dead or lost in action. A heart breaking scenario.

Those that talk glibly about the Russians and yes also some Ukrainians who are decent but forced to join a cause that abhors them , is disgusting.

Those who point fingers at others, don't worry there are many pointing back to you.

Wishful blindness and the worst kind of hypocrisy...it shocks me that there are insensitive people here that most certainly don't care a rats arse about Russians or Ukrainians and don't try to even say they do...they don't.

Those who put their faith in fire, inside their fire will be repaid !





ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
26 Apr 2023, 14:50
#21
26 Apr 2023, 14:50#21
When people say there are no Neo Nazis in Ukraine shows a part of ignorance, virtually all if not most of Azov regiment combatants that surrendered in Mariupol siege were littered with tattoos that bored images of swastikas, the dark angel and even images of Hitler and Bandera. Do you want to borrow my glasses?
No one said there was no Neo Nazi's in Ukraine, but that they only constitute a fringe minority and have no political power. The Ukrainian government is not a Nazi government, its led by a Jew for crying out loud. There is Neo Nazi groups in Russia too, but no one every accused Russia of being a Nazi state, at least not until they invaded Ukraine.
Besides, articles and you tube videos posted by your beloved "bible" the Guardian published and posted a batch prior to 2013 highlighting this concern.
Amazing how you can accept western media when you think theircontent suits your agenda.
Also I have it out of people, who left Ukraine who we know for Russia, they were stopped just before the border. Her husband was arrested and forced to join Ukrainian army. He was torn away from his wife and 2 children. They were harassed and eventually she and kids allowed to cross. She still has not heard from him and he might well be dead or lost in action. A heart breaking scenario.

Maybe this is true, maybe its Russian propaganda. Either way if Russia never started this war, it wouldn't have happened.
Those that talk glibly about the Russians and yes also some Ukrainians who are decent but forced to join a cause that abhors them, is disgusting.
If true again it wouldn't have happened had Putin not started this unnecessary war. 







DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
26 Apr 2023, 15:37
#22
26 Apr 2023, 15:37#22

Stav, your second from last post makes a lot of sense...but if that is as simple,  diplomacy should have prevented it..."if you dou a, we will do z,y and z, don't even think about it!"

The lack of that AND the way Ukraine responded under the Zelensky leadership...however weird everything about Zelensky is...

SE
SebPro2,680 posts
26 Apr 2023, 16:04
#23
26 Apr 2023, 16:04#23

Not in anyway as small as we have been told. That's just another deception.

In any event, the origins of  Nazi party started very small in the last years of WW1. Just pockets of people. In 1919 in Hitlers first speech their were only 111 people.

In 1920 on 24th Feb he spoke to an audience of about 2000 people.

The rest is history.

The Neo Nazi groups are every where often in disguise and they are masters of deception, red herrings are every where. Goebbels said is you tell lies over and over again people eventually start believing.

Be not deceived their movement is alive and thriving.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
26 Apr 2023, 19:02
#24
26 Apr 2023, 19:02#24

Stav, your second from last post makes a lot of sense...but if that is as simple,  diplomacy should have prevented it

I'd argue you are the one being simplistic with the diplomacy should have prevented it argument.

AND the way Ukraine responded under the Zelensky leadership...however weird everything about Zelensky is...

You again favor a conspiracy theory for which there is no evidence of when a more logical explanation exists. In war people tend to rally around their leader, and Zelenskyy also earned a lot of respect from his people and the world by choosing not to flee Ukraine when he had the chance. As a comedian, he knows how to play to an audience and he leveraged what would one could call his natural talents when he was appealing to the various countries for aid. He knew how to both charm and tailor his speeches to the whatever country he was speaking.  In effect he was the right man in the right place for the events at hand. Had there been no war he would likely just have ended up a footnote in history that none of us could name, but events transpired to make the man.






SH
sharkbokCaptain23,201 posts
26 Apr 2023, 19:06
#25
26 Apr 2023, 19:06#25

Why does the far right-wing hate Zelensky?

Do they even know themselves?

Or is it because Putin is their idol?

Not clear....

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
26 Apr 2023, 19:42
#26
26 Apr 2023, 19:42#26

What is clear is that if you took stupid and brainwashed zealots like Tit, Baboon-ou, ButtPlug, Bendover and ou Maaik 80 years back in time, they'd be the ones telling us that Adolf Hitler is a kind and caring leader who has god on his side but is misunderstood by the west while Winsto n Churchill is an evil, self-serving tyrant who represents Satan and should be hanged. 

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
26 Apr 2023, 19:48
#27
26 Apr 2023, 19:48#27

Snarkhole, I'm not far right and I don't hate Zelensky...an actor who played a character who got elected president of Ukranian out of nowhere got elected to the presidency right after playing the role...then the war with Russia starts and he becomes a symbol of freedom with a Captain America like persona...leading from the front...It looks scripted AF...feels like we're living in a simulation created by an average Bollywood script writer...it's ubsurdly unreal...everything went bonkers since 2016...Trump, BoJo, this Stupid war Zelensky,...the previous Japanese president got assassinated...not to forget the whole Covid and lockdown BS...bring back the 80's please!!!!

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
26 Apr 2023, 21:24
#28
26 Apr 2023, 21:24#28

an actor who played a character who got elected president of Ukranian out of nowhere got elected to the presidency right after playing the role

Whats your point. Roland Regan was an actor before he became President.

...then the war with Russia starts and he becomes a symbol of freedom with a Captain America like persona...leading from the front...It looks scripted AF

It seems to me that the main issue you find difficult to accept is the man is actually doing a good job which you find that extremely suspicious.

..everything went bonkers since 2016...Trump, BoJo, this Stupid war Zelensky,...the previous Japanese president got assassinated...not to forget the whole Covid and lockdown BS

Yeah just throw a hole load of random people and events into the mix. That makes a lot of sense.

...bring back the 80's please!!!!

No thanks. Good music though.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Apr 2023, 01:18
#29
27 Apr 2023, 01:18#29

Raytheon is the largest US military contractor. In 1993 the stock started at $38 it’s now $98 thirty years later. In 1993 the S&P 500 started at $435. If it increased as much as Raytheon over that 30 years it would currently be $1421. But the S&P which represents the entire stock market is at $4080…..almost 3 times as much.

If these military contractors, are manipulating the whole world to make money, they are awfully bad at it. You would have done far better investing in waste management.

It’s never about money in the States, there are much better ways to make money. All the wars are huge losers. It’s about ideology. Believe it or not, the average American thinks the  Ukraine should be supported regardless of price.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Apr 2023, 03:35
#30
27 Apr 2023, 03:35#30

Stav 

Lets look at the situation in the world since the 1970's.    In all the above cases the USA were arming their allies to wage proxy wars against common enemies,

In the early 1970's after the end of the disastrous Vietnam War - the war situations took a different turn,   The USA armed other countries to wage war against  their neighbors.   Those included :-

*   wars between Israel and the Muslim countries in the area;

*    the Congo and Angolan civil wars - especially their assurance of support for SA to invade Angola - my brother told me that they could see the lights of Luanda when the USA  suddenly withdrew from support of SA which aims to get rid of the Cubans involved in the Angolan civil war.  When the USA Government was forced into a situation where public arming of the SA military in that war was politically unacceptable so the SA Government decided to withdraw their army from Angola.   

*    The Iraq-Iran war of the mid-1980's in which the USA armed the Iraqi's with their main an closest ally in the Mid-East was Saddam Hussein in his war against the Iranians.  That created a monster in the ME who  repaid the USA by attacking Kuwait.     T^ht th reatened the European dependence on ME oil and the brief first Iraqi War followed - the first time in yearsa where active US involvement in the ME.   

*     Despite of their support of the Iraqi  in the 1980's the result of that war USA imposed sanctions on their erstwhile ally that lasted until the 9/11 attack on New York and the subsequent second Iraqi War.

*      In the Bush Cabinet there was Vice President Cheyne - whose links to Haliburton - was a mains supporter  of war in Afghanistan    Haliburton got massive defense contracts and the Cheney family got massively rich as a result.   Be it as it may - the USA and the UK decided to start a war in Afghanistan ending only 20 years later in a  debacle relating to withdrawal of US forces from Aghanistan.

*      The fact is that the second Iraq war erupted the result of lies about WMD of which there was NONE.   Obama announced that US troops was withdrawing from Iraq.   and ISIS was quickly making gains and then he reversed the policy of withdrawal when Obama reversed his poicy7 and send in troops into Iraq again.   The requirement then was to assist the Iraqi army to fight ISIS - not to get involved  in actual fighting.

*      When Trump became President he found that ISIS was controlling most of Iraq and he ordered the return of US soldiers to exterminate ISIS.   After that was achieved he isntructed that US troops to be withdrawn from Syria and Iraq - but the Pentag on delayed withdrawal and now the army presence in Syria still remains a problem. 

*      After the chaotic Biden withdrawal from Afghanistan they left $83 billion on USA arms in Afghanistan.    Some part of the armaments left behind could be accepted, but the most modern helicopters left at the Baram base is not.  

That bring s us to the Ukraine war started with 7 months from the US  Army withdrawal from Afghanistan.    Is that co-incidental?   Highly unlikely since the Obama Administration was involved in the 2014 coup in Ukraine that led to the civil war in Ukraine that lasted from 2014.to date.  Despite the media propaganda the USA sabotaged negotiations that could have avoided the present war.   

It seems that there are elements in the USA interested in continuous war all over the globe and in providing massive arms assistance on a continuous basis in the USA.   In the main all wars involved US Armaments Production irrespective of whether there there were proxy wars not directly involved in the war by US troops or whether there are actual US troops involvement in war situations.

Why should that be..   

                                 

                   

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Apr 2023, 03:35
#31
27 Apr 2023, 03:35#31

Dup lication

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
27 Apr 2023, 07:31
#32
27 Apr 2023, 07:31#32

"If these military contractors, are manipulating the whole world to make money, they are awfully bad at it. You would have done far better investing in waste management."

It's much bigger than that...

— END OF THREAD —

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