Things are getting worse by the day...

It seems excessive to me, but that's the cellphone service providers' data

It's not cellphone service provider data. It's people taking the total number of cell phone SIMS and assuming without evidence the excess number of SIMS is down to illegal immigrants.

our cities are stuffed with foreigners...half of Zim are here...Congo, Somalia, Mozambique, Lesotho, Malawi, Nigeria, Bangladesh, China, Pakistan...all wel represented...people are streaming in from everywhere...our hospitals can't cope.

The claim was actually 27M...there is no proper data, but it's much more than the government estimates

27 or 30 million is a ridiculous number if you even think about it for a moment. It would mean South Africa would have the second highest immigrant population in the world. I understand South Africa is the biggest economy in Africa but it's still a relatively poor country, makes no sense that it would attract an abnormally high level of immigrants.

As for you hospitals not coping, immigration isn't the primary factor, funding, staffing and infrastructure are the primary problems. Similar to many other places in the world.

The sensus was a joke ...

There was issues with it, but it's more credible than wild claims about immigration.

I believe the 2024 numbers shown below are from the UN. Again its not perfect but the UN isn't going to out by ten's of millions.

https://www.populationpyramid.net/immigration-statistics/en/south-africa/2024/?utm_source=copilot.com

"27 or 30 million is a ridiculous number if you even think about it for a moment. It would mean South Africa would have the second highest immigrant population in the world. I understand South Africa is the biggest economy in Africa but it's still a relatively poor country, makes no sense that it would attract an abnormally high level of immigrants."

Perhaps you should try visiting some of the countries on the list. SA is miles better than most of them.

What's that saying about in a world of blind people, something about the one-eyed man...

It's very easy for Africans to come here. Literally hop on a bus and pay a border official some money. It's so comfortable that many illegals will go home for holidays and come back...never using a passport at any point.

If you've seen Malawi, Mozambique, Nigeria, and all these other proper shithole countries, it's easy to understand why they flock to SA.

Oh I can understand other African migrants choosing to go to South Africa, but for Chinese, Pakistani or Bangladeshi immigrants I can't see why South Africa would be particular attractive over other countries.

Just because you can't understand, it doesn't mean it isn't happening. There's probably at least 10 Bangladesh/Pakistani stores within a 5km radius from my house...at least 5 sushi places and probably 10 barbershops....and that's probably true for everyone on this site living in a South African city ..they are even in the most remote towns of the Western or Northern Cape

"Oh I can understand other African migrants choosing to go to South Africa, but for Chinese, Pakistani or Bangladeshi immigrants I can't see why South Africa would be particular attractive over other countries."

...because it's easier to get in to SA than most other countries of similar living standard.

As for the Chinese, they see cheap labour and a big market to sell to. Red tape is also easy to bypass as long as you're willing to grease some palms.

Not rocket science really.

Just because you can't understand, it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

I was being polite. It's not that I can't understand, it's I know your talking rubbish.

Bangladesh/Pakistani stores within a 5km radius from my house...at least 5 sushi places and probably 10 barbershops....

What...what has Sushi to do with this?. Are you suggesting Bangladesh/Pakistani's are coming to South Africa to open Sushi restaurants and barbershops. I mean what's barbershops got to do with any particular country, every country has them. But Sushi, that's not even Chinese...that's Japanese. Is South Africa being overrun by Japanese?

No, that's the Chinese doing Sushi and the barbershops are all either from Jordan or Turkey.... I'm not talking rubbish, you are the one being the know it all from Ireland being an expert on what's going on in South Africa...I see daily what's going on around me...and it's not only Cape Town...I saw the exact same things in Joburg, Pretoria and a number of small towns all across the Western Cape....I don't need Google or mainstream media to tell me what I can see with my own eyes everywhere I go....PS you suck at being polite... obnoxious condescendence is not polite...try harder

No, that's the Chinese doing Sushi

Seriously I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

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"Seriously I don't know whether to laugh or cry."

You might be fine with every fabric of life in your country being irreversibly changed... I'm not...China allows no foreigners citizenship...work permits are short term only and residency without being allowed to work is short term, 2 years max...yet they are everywhere in the world...

.

but for Chinese, Pakistani or Bangladeshi immigrants I can't see why South Africa would be particular attractive over other countries.

Try visit these 3 other countries and then compare them to South Africa..... there is a huge difference in culture and living standards .... live in South Africa and it is blatantly obvious why they are flooding into this country

I mean what's barbershops got to do with any particular country, every country has them

This here just shows me that you have absolutely zero clue as to what you are talking about.....

I also don't agree with the huge numbers that were initally mentioned regarding the sim cards, but I can also say that after reading your very ignorant comments, you have no clue at all why or what is happening in South Africa, but you will still try and profess that you do, from Ireland.....without ever even visiting this country......our resident expert from 14 000km away

you are the one being the know it all from Ireland being an expert on what's going on in South Africa

Yep.... been happening for ages already

PS you suck at being polite... obnoxious condescendence is not polite

Notice how more and more posters have picked up on this and pointed it out in the last year or two...because Stav just can't help himself

You might be fine with every fabric of life in your country being irreversibly changed... I'm not

Sad and true

itiswotitis

Try visit these 3 other countries and then compare them to South Africa..... there is a huge difference in culture and living standards .... live in South Africa and it is blatantly obvious why they are flooding into this country

And you have been to all 3? I'm aware that overall those countries have a lower standard of living though in China's case there is a massive disparity in wealth when it comes to the cities versus the countryside. My point is that those 3 countries are in Asia and it takes considerable effort to get to SA from them. Why would South Africa in particular be attractive to them, why would they not just go elsewhere that has an even better standard of living and less crime than SA. The UN numbers back up my stance, putting the Bangladeshi population at 30,637, Pakistani at 17,393 and Chinese at just 6,189. Now granted those numbers aren't perfect but the UN is not going to by massively off with their numbers either.

This here just shows me that you have absolutely zero clue as to what you are talking about.....

I also don't agree with the huge numbers that were initally mentioned regarding the sim cards, but I can also say that after reading your very ignorant comments, you have no clue at all why or what is happening in South Africa, but you will still try and profess that you do, from Ireland.....without ever even visiting this country......our resident expert from 14 000km away

Draad made an absolutely ridiculous claim in a serious manner. I questioned it, bobbok also posted a fact check on that claim and why it's not credible, which also referenced the last South Africa census, so Draad did a partial walk back of the claim but also stated the the number of immigrant was much more than the government was starting without providing numbers and dismissed the last census as a joke but did not provide any evidence of his own. Instead he offered his own personal experience but undermines his own credibility by appearing to jumble up national traits, he's apparently has got lots of Pakistani and Bangledeshi stores in close proximity nearby but given the strained relations between Pakistan and Bangledesh it doesn't make sense for them to congregate in relatively small area when they emigrate, Chinese people opening Sushi stores makes zero sense as Sushi is a Japanese dish and Barbershops are more associated with the Turks. He also states the hospitals can't cope with the number of immigrants, but again this is a claim that's been used in many other countries with high levels of immigration but pretty much every study into the topic showed that immigrants tend to be younger and healthier than the native population so they use hospitals less in addition to facing barriers to access health services that native people don't face, and combined with the number of immigrants employed in health care sectors they often have a net benefit to countries health care system.

So no it's not that I'm an expert on South Africa, which I've never claimed to be, it's just when it comes to the immigration debate in general, those who are against immigration often intentionally or otherwise overstate the scale of it and use arguments that have debunked. No one has presented any evidence to suggest South Africa is different.

Yep.... been happening for ages already

I've never stated I was, I just find Draad's claims highly uncredible.

Sad and true

Oh the irony. Tell me how has the fabric of my life been changed?

China and South Africa have been partners for years already. There’s trade, investment, infrastructure projects, and strong economic ties.

Chinese goods are imported because they’re cheaper. That’s why you see Chinese shops in South Africa.

South Africans like affordable stuff. Cheap electronics, cheap goods, cheap cars.

Let’s be honest, South-Africans would rather save there money for brandy and Coke and braai meat.

So they can Braai, get "gesuip" and watch the Rugby.The Chinese are just meeting that demand.

Over the last 10–20 years, the number of Chinese actually living here hasn’t grown drastically. Most of the Chinese people you see in South Africa are here legally.

Sure, maybe some are paying underground money or greasing palms to get visas or business permits, but there’s no hard proof that this is widespread.

The bigger concern in South Africa is not the Chinese...it’s the influx of African immigrants coming in illegally. Truckloads of them cross our borders without work permits or legal status.

That’s where the ANC’s failure shows: Zero border control, broken visa systems, lack of proper structure at municipal and government levels, and overall corruption.

Money that should go into improving systems gets stolen, so our infrastructure and borders collapse.

Our relationship with China and the presence of Chinese people and businesses, is not our biggest problem. That's my opinion.

I'm aware that overall those countries have a lower standard of living

So am I, so you would agree then that we both don't need to go there, although in this specific case between the two of us here, you have also never ever been to or lived in South Africa, hence the big difference between your opinion and mine... or any other South African or ex-pat on this forum.... you just assume way too much about how we live or do things here on a daily basis....and then factor that into your opinions or debates as almost fact.... without actually living it everyday like we do.... it shows massive naievity and ignorance on your part.

Why would South Africa in particular be attractive to them, why would they not just go elsewhere that has an even better standard of living and less crime than SA

Great question....if the choice was between extreme poverty and earning an average wage, the distance doesn't and shouldn't matter. People don't always migrate based on the "best places to live", they migrate based on the opportunity gaps, and let's just say that the way we monitor and control illegal migration into South Africa, especially with this completely inept government... lets just say that it provides plenty of opportunities.

You assume that these people just walked here and completely ignored Europe, when in fact their decisions are based on smuggling routes, visa-free transit countries, and most importantly ...porous borders.

They could have aimed for Europe and got stuck, they may have even taken a plane at some point on a tourist visa and just never left.

The distance all these people travelled doesn't mean that they specifically chose South Africa over Switzerland for example.... it might be that it was the South African door / border opportunity that just happened to be open.

he's apparently has got lots of Pakistani and Bangledeshi stores in close proximity nearby but given the strained relations between Pakistan and Bangledesh it doesn't make sense for them to congregate in relatively small area when they emigrate

Well ... let's test this theory of yours right here and now then...... let's see if anyone at all on this forum, currently living in South Africa.... agrees with what you think cannot happen regarding what you stated about with Pakistani and Bangladeshi people, or if they agree with Db, Plum and my own opinion on this.

You are saying that what DB is saying, cannot be possible, because of the strained relations between Pakistan and Bangladesh, and that it can't make sense for them to both be in a relatively small area....LOL .... I genuinely want to see how many current South African's on this forum support your stance or opinion on this...because it is so incredibly wrong on so many levels..... and ChatGPT can never advise you correctly of this.

Barbershops are more associated with the Turks

Well..... let's see how many South African's on this foroum dispute this claim from Db, Plum and I...... and agree with you that they are Turks and cannot be predominantly Pakistani or Bangladeshi

You are completely ignorant to what is happening in this country on a daily basis....

it's just when it comes to the immigration debate in general, those who are against immigration often intentionally or otherwise overstate the scale of it

Well, not in this case..... because besides the misguided numbers that Db posted, everything he, Plum and I have stated on this topic, is absolutely 100% spot on..... but you would not know this at all, because you don't live here..... and never have, and AI cannot and will not ever be able to put you in a position where you could state something as fact, about who, where, what and why people are coming into this country illegally every single day.

No one has presented any evidence to suggest South Africa is different.

The evidence won't be found in some UN, Census, or ChatGPT response, it is seen in the current and increasing thriving visible communities that they have built in and around South Africa, along with standing at all the traffic lights in all the towns, selling their merchandise, opening spaza shops in locations where the black population have not bothered to.....or keeping open almost 24 hours a day to accomodate everyone in these rural places, which is something else the native black population don't and won't do......and you don't build communities like that, if they are so different to where you are from.

Lastly, just look how difficult it is to get a tourist visa for Switzerland versus how easy it is to cross the Limpopo River, because no matter how you look at it, you can always build a wall with a tiny door, but if there is a massive hole next to it, don't be suprised if the hole is always used

Find me the river that borders Germany where people can just wade into the country with a backpack.

The Limpopo River isn't a scenic landmark in South Africa, it's a huge front door without a lock

"The Limpopo River isn't a scenic landmark in South Africa, it's a huge front door without a lock"

Well, they don’t need to wade through the Limpopo River when they can actually pass through on roads at the border post where there is very little policing.

Only a total fool would wade through the Limpopo River. It’s full of massive crocodiles...

So am I, so you would agree then that we both don't need to go there, although in this specific case between the two of us here, you have also never ever been to or lived in South Africa, hence the big difference between your opinion and mine... or any other South African or ex-pat on this forum.... you just assume way too much about how we live or do things here on a daily basis....and then factor that into your opinions or debates as almost fact.... without actually living it everyday like we do.... it shows massive naievity and ignorance on your part.

I'm pretty certain that you said to me on more than occasion, that I'm unable to see what's going on in my own country, pretty hypocritical stance you have on this.

Great question....if the choice was between extreme poverty and earning an average wage, the distance doesn't and shouldn't matter. People don't always migrate based on the "best places to live", they migrate based on the opportunity gaps, and let's just say that the way we monitor and control illegal migration into South Africa, especially with this completely inept government... lets just say that it provides plenty of opportunities.

The distance does matter. You're really only going to get to South Africa from Pakistan, Bangladesh and China by air, if a immigrant from those places can afford a ticket to get to SA then they afford a ticket to go to a wealthier country. Now yes in individual cases their may be specific opportunities in South Africa for some immigrants than draw them, but at overall level there is going to be less opportunities in South Africa than in many other countries.

You assume that these people just walked here and completely ignored Europe, when in fact their decisions are based on smuggling routes, visa-free transit countries, and most importantly ...porous borders.

No I made the opposite assumption about how they got there. Are you really suggesting Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Chinese are being smuggled or sneaking over the border in large numbers. Why aren't they just coming direct to South Africa via a plane? Also you do realise that South Africa has significantly higher deportation rates than many European countries, like last year it deported more than France and Germany did combined?

They could have aimed for Europe and got stuck, they may have even taken a plane at some point on a tourist visa and just never left.

The distance all these people travelled doesn't mean that they specifically chose South Africa over Switzerland for example.... it might be that it was the South African door / border opportunity that just happened to be open.

We can look up the top 20 places Pakistani's emigrate too, South Africa comes in at number 19. For Chinese South African comes in 20th place , I don't have a top 20 list for Bangledeshi but there is one for the top 15 and South Africa isn't on it.

Based on this and the numbers from the UN, I can conclude that South Africa doesn't have particularly high rates of immigration from those countries.

You are saying that what DB is saying, cannot be possible, because of the strained relations between Pakistan and Bangladesh, and that it can't make sense for them to both be in a relatively small area....LOL .... I genuinely want to see how many current South African's on this forum support your stance or opinion on this...because it is so incredibly wrong on so many levels..... and ChatGPT can never advise you correctly of this.

I'm saying it highly improbable. Here's the thing I'm really dubious that Draad could actually tell a Pakistani or Bangledeshi apart. I mean he displayed ignorance of what's quite common knowledge associating Sushi with Chinese people.

Well..... let's see how many South African's on this foroum dispute this claim from Db, Plum and I...... and agree with you that they are Turks and cannot be predominantly Pakistani or Bangladeshi

You are completely ignorant to what is happening in this country on a daily basis....

I'm not saying that Pakistani or Bangladeshi can't run barbershops, its just strange to associate them with it and also who really has an issue with barbershops?

I noticed you skipped over the Chinese Sushi. Which would be the equivalent of an Irish man emigrating to South Africa to open a traditional English pub.

Well, not in this case..... because besides the misguided numbers that Db posted, everything he, Plum and I have stated on this topic, is absolutely 100% spot on

No you both have stated an opinion. Not all of it I disagree with. You seem to have a problem with distinguishing opinion from facts. I asked you before for some actual numbers on the number of immigrates in South Africa and to back up those numbers with some credible evidence. You didn't bother giving any numbers just the same vague old responded based on feelings "oh it's much higher than the official numbers and an attitude of duh its just obvious" This is what it frequently comes down, personal feelings and antidotally evidence flavoured by confirmation bias.

but you would not know this at all, because you don't live here..... and never have, and AI cannot and will not ever be able to put you in a position where you could state something as fact, about who, where, what and why people are coming into this country illegally every single day.

Here's what I know. South Africa has a relatively high degree of immigration for a country in the global south. Compared to Europe the numbers are lower but because South Africa is a poorer country it's harder for it to deal with the issue. Illegal immigration is an issue, primarily from neighbouring countries, the border is porous and there is high levels of corruption, though the idea that the government in SA is doing absolutely nothing is wrong, as demonstrated by deportation numbers. The official number of immigrants is 2.57 million or 4% of the population. This is likely an undercount but the idea that's there's many many millions possible tens of millions more illegal immigrants in South Africa i's just not credible. No amount of arguments that amount too "I looked out my car window and saw a lot of what looked like foreign looking people on a particular street, therefore I can extrapolate my personal experience to the rest of the country and am entitled to make up any number I want for the total number of immigrants" is going to convince me otherwise because the same arguments have been used here to some degrees or another in my own country or neighbouring countries. It's like when you here call in's to radio shows, and a person claims that such and such error no longer has any native people living there or is a dangerous no go area. The radio station sends someone out to that location and the first 6 people they meet are all natives and have no particular issue with crime in the area and its 15-20 minutes before they encounter anyone who wasn't a native.

Also you didn't answer, how is the fabric of my life been changed?

"Here's the thing I'm really dubious that Draad could actually tell a Pakistani or Bangledeshi apart"

I actually speak to them about cricket etc...they have TVs on during matches...met an Afghan the other day...we talked about cricket and his origin came up.

"I noticed you skipped over the Chinese Sushi. Which would be the equivalent of an Irish man emigrating to South Africa to open a traditional English pub."

Oh dear, do you mean to tell me the pizza I ordered from the corner chippy wasn't made by an Italian?? Who woulda guessed the local takeaway serving succulent Chinese meals, Turkish kebabs, Italian and Greek dishes was run and owned by Haji Guiseppe Iqbal the third?

Chop!

How many Sushi places do you know run by Chinese?

Down goes Anger, unfortunately those Mick blinkers lead to a few misconceptions.

I am not aware of any Chinese takeaway/Sushi restaurants not at least run by Chinese people ...most places are almost exclusively staffed by Chinese people too, the till being the only exception...they some favour South Africans to interact with the clients.

Anger's assumption is that I don't like the foreigners... I'm fine with the individuals and get along with them better than I do with many of the locals. I don't have any problem with immigrants...I have a problem with the chaotic way in which it's being allowed to happen in South Africa...our failing infrastructure is not even adequate for the people of South Africa...IMO at least 10 to 20% ...probably 15%...iof South Africa is foreign born... it's too high ..the sensus number is horse manure.

I'm pretty certain that you said to me on more than occasion, that I'm unable to see what's going on in my own country, pretty hypocritical stance you have on this.

That is still very true, you have blinkers on.....at least I am very well aware of what is happening on my own doorstep.

The distance does matter

No it doesn't

Based on this and the numbers from the UN, I can conclude that South Africa doesn't have particularly high rates of immigration from those countries

That is absolute rubbish

I'm not saying that Pakistani or Bangladeshi can't run barbershops, its just strange to associate them with it and also who really has an issue with barbershops?

You flat out said that what Draad said does not make any sense to you, so stop backtracking..... you made a very clear and bold statement about these specific people....of which you know absolutely nothing about.... and yes, I am still waiting for any South African on this forum to support your stance or opinion on this..... and I have seen nothing yet.

And... nobody has any issue at all with barbershops.... however..... if you compare how many barbershops are now run by Bangladeshi people in South Africa today, compared to 10 - 15 years ago....... the increase is absolutely phenomenal across the country..........and any resident South African would openly tell you that.... but only if you were actually willing to listen to them..... which you don't.....which is why you didn't believe what Draad was trying to tell you......because you are ignorant.

You seem to have a problem with distinguishing opinion from facts

Bwahahahahahahahahahahhaha.... no man..... please don't

Also you didn't answer, how is the fabric of my life been changed?

Look around you .......and maybe start noticing what is happening on your own front doorstep, before professing to know better about another country, from 14 000kms away

South Africa reported population: 65 millions and there would 30 millions illegal residents...

Total population: 95 millions, one of three is an illegal resident. Liberals speak without consequences. They can not accept the society as they have shaped it and they need to invent a version.