Trump & Putin Agree to Ceasefire in Ukraine

"How is making concessions before negotiations even begun a good negotiation tactic."

Because those concessions were Putin's line in the sand in the first place...

Trump played Putin like a fiddle when he was president befcore, So why should he do othewisae now?] Twisted BS from a twisted individual, Happy Idiots Day to you Stav.

LOL

I gonna bet that if we ask Blo and Stav, they know very little of what the outcome of negotiations will be. I'm gonna bet that they know less than 10% of what will be offered by the different sides not what deals will be struck. But the TDS has dictated that Trump will fail, Ukraine will be scammed and Putin will get everything he wants.

They have a deep rooted need for anything Trump does to turn out badly.

This while Biden and Europe didn't come close to ending the war.

At no point in any of these rants do we hear sentences resembling "I'm glad there will be negotiations and I hope there is a good outcome and an end to this war."

Stav attempted to turn it into us being the polar opposite, praising everything Trump does, when really the apparent Trump "cultists" here do hope he gets a good deal for Ukraine.

And I said this literally at the start of this war, Ukraine will not get the same deal they would have gotten had a strong US president forced them to the negotiating table. Ukraine have much less going for them now than they did 3 years ago. Now that reality has come to pass and wouldn't you know it...Trump is somehow the bad guy in this. Pathetic.

Yes, Stav, the Ukraine tank is running on fumes. But with bottomless funding from the West this could become a perpetual war that goes on forever. What didn't you understand? Western money versus a Russian manpower.

I gonna bet that if we ask Blo and Stav, they know very little of what the outcome of negotiations will be.

No one does, neither do you, all I'm doing is given my reaction to whats been reported, which aligns to the concerns I've had about how Trump would approach Ukraine all along.

I'm gonna bet that they know less than 10% of what will be offered by the different sides not what deals will be struck. But the TDS has dictated that Trump will fail, Ukraine will be scammed and Putin will get everything he wants.

They have a deep rooted need for anything Trump does to turn out badly.

Here's the thing about Trump supporters, they never seem to have an opinion of their own, they either just stall, evade or give this vague "Trump will solve it, wait and see" but never go into the details of how they feel an issue should be resolved, just in case Trump does something different and they have to backtrack. They just wait for Trump to do something then mindlessly support it, regardless of any downsides.

This while Biden and Europe didn't come close to ending the war.

This while Biden and Europe didn't come close to capitulating to Putin. Fixed it for you.

At no point in any of these rants do we hear sentences resembling "I'm glad there will be negotiations and I hope there is a good outcome and an end to this war."

At no point do we have supporters of this plan asking what do Ukrainian's want. As Moz pointed out, a majority of the Ukrainian public do want a ceasefire but not any price and its pretty clear they see this as the US betraying them.

And I said this literally at the start of this war, Ukraine will not get the same deal they would have gotten had a strong US president forced them to the negotiating table. Ukraine have much less going for them now than they did 3 years ago. Now that reality has come to pass and wouldn't you know it...Trump is somehow the bad guy in this. Pathetic.

There was no deal to be had other than Ukraine in its entirety becoming a vassal state. Your utterly delusional to think otherwise.

Yes, Stav, the Ukraine tank is running on funes. But with bottomless funding from the West this could become a perpetual war that goes on forever. What didn't you understand? Western money versus a Russian manpower.

Nice contradiction.

How is it a contradiction to say that a country has been so weakened by war that without support they would be finished . But that with endless funding they could fight on, perhaps indefinitely?

"At no point do we have supporters of this plan asking what do Ukrainian's want. As Moz pointed out, a majority of the Ukrainian public do want a ceasefire but not any price and its pretty clear they see this as the US betraying them."

Well, you seem to know exactly what the outcome Trump Jasmin mind will be. So enlighten us. And then let's compare that to the actual outcome when such arrives.

There was no deal to be had other than Ukraine in its entirety becoming a vassal state. Your utterly delusional to think otherwise.

Just one question then - wher did you get that deduction from?

Another observation - Ukraone is now a vassal state under total control of the USA, Prven time and time again - Zelenskyy is a puppet of the ashington set-up - which was totally corrupt and deserve to go to jai; for corruption benefitting from the tragic war situation. - where massive kicbacks became a rule.

There is no way that Ukraine will get back the Crimea - zero at all, 95% of the residdents wnats never be part again of a petty dictatorship in Kiev, .

There was no deal to be had other than Ukraine in its entirety becoming a vassal state. Your utterly delusional to think otherwise.

Just one question then - wher did you get that deduction from?

Another observation - Ukraone is now a vassal state under total control of the USA, Prven time and time again - Zelenskyy is a puppet of the ashington set-up - which was totally corrupt and deserve to go to jai; for corruption benefitting from the tragic war situation. - where massive kicbacks became a rule.

There is no way that Ukraine will get back the Crimea - zero at all, 95% of the residdents wnats never be part again of a petty dictatorship in Kiev, .

Mike, these numpties have no idea of how it will turn out.

From these posts it's clear that they wish for endless money to be poured into Ukraine...somebody else's money, of course.

All they do know is that they desperately want Trump to fail.

What I know is that I don't care who mediates the negotiations. As long as the fighting stops and both sides are sign a solid deal.

But I can already see how it's gonna go down. The deal will be largely equitable and make sense, but the TDS gang will claim it's the worst thing ever and Trump is sataN.

I do undestand what real problems there are in the USA at present in the USA and in this cae in particular with the USA Department of Defense and that relates to financial management of that Department . Lt me add I wa at one staage Consulted by National Trasury on Education Financxe since they trusted the way that I manage the financial system.

Let me add something ielse in any couty movement of money fom one vote to another without permssion of the National Treasary is a crime and that was in the Resgan area was a crime as well, I do not think that legal prinmciple ever chnged - but in the case of the Obama Administration it somehow became nhe norm in financial management in the USA.. A war annot be run without sound financial management - a rule dating from ancient Roman times and inherent in modern democracies,

So what went wrong in the case of the US DOD . Firstly the books of the Department has not been audited since 2003/ In 2023 the House refuised to pass he DOD Budget until it ws agreed that the books will be audited in 2024, In compliance with that condition the Books was in fact audited and in view of the massive size of the operation it was divided in 11 components and 7 of the components were completed, In all 7 componets the DOD failed miserably and nobody could account on what and for what purpose money made available to the Department was spent, Based on presen percentage sge total amount of such expenditure will e circa $250 billion out of a otal budget of $825 billion was spent on..

So where and on what was he money sent on, The first part relates to totally weird expendiure - like a study on clmate change costin billions of dollas and had zero to do with DOD and the function of the energy and other Departments of the USA - as well as the operation of at least 26 bio-labs in Ukraine funded by the DOD. They even built a brandne bio-lab in Odessa, and the DOD apaprently tried to hide that expenditure by no provide proof of payment for that type of expenditure.- since in terms of legal requirments that represent financial management fraud,

The more important problem is that there was a cosy Dvelopment ws that retiring army senior officers became cobnsultants and even staff nenvbes of the Armaments industry - they definiely promote arms industry orders by the DOD and it entail corruption on high level. For Iintance the previous Secetarry of Defense was a retired general from the army that beame a Consultant of the amaments .indiustry and om there was picked by Biden to become Secretay of Defense ' That relationshop netweem the Department leaders and the arms industry became a nighmare ever since 2 001 with a system where tredes include a 15% surcharge that the Companies concerned added to their proces ad then us the money to pay bribes to both poliicians and bureaucrats concerned.

Trump became aware of the 15% surcharge and in 2019 and he met personally with poential companies to discuss replacement of the F15;s with more moden aircraft. In teh negotiations it as recirded that Trump said he knows about the kick-back situation and told the companies concerned that they must provide quotes for the manufacture of the aircraft offered, Trump is not the easiest peson tod eal with and e promptly took 15% off the prices provided and offered the companies concerned 15% less than quoted and gave the companies concerned a lecture that if there is any kickbacks at all he would charge both the companies and bureaucrats concerned with bribery and corruption charges,

The prices for aircraft ordses made by Trump was accepted and they started dlivey of the aircraft ordrered were acceped at the lower prics Trump offered.. The frst plabes were delivered in 2020 based on the price offered - but in cam Bidena nd the system ent abck to what it was and bribery and corruption was back in full force. It is that corrupt system that Trump inherited when he was elected and he decided not to appoint anybody with links to the araamements indyustry as Scretary of Defense - hence his appoinent of Hegseth - who was well aware how corrupt the sysstem became. No surprise that the benefitting politicians tried to prevent his appointment and those also incude three Republican Senators,

However bearing in mind the above - Trump authorized that DOGE must investigate the DOD and all hell is coming. Thee are already corut programs involved and more is going to be expposed. The ohe problem is that in line with the DEI ystem a quota system in recruiting oldiers was implemented to caer or tehs ystem - so the quota system prevented the reaching of recruitment targets and and Trump scrapped the DEI operations to save fruitless and corrupt expenditure by the Depaprtment.

So back to the Ukraine War. At he start of the War in Februay 2022 Biden offered the Ukraine Government $40 billion in military aid - but it would not be paid to Ukraine to use, The USA army command to sent exiting arms to Ukraine from military abses throughout the wold and the Deaortment would order now arms to replace the arms deliverd to Ukraine. Nancy Pelosi and Schiff got Congress to provide a grant of $1 billion to Ukraine. Problems started immediatly wih both the arms delivery and the cash supply.

In September 2022 in a hearing by the Senate Committee in September 2022 the OD reprsentatives admitted that only 30% of he delivered arms reachede he fighting army. That became such a seious problem that the DOD sent a Colonel to Kiev the amanagement of the arms deliveries and ensure i was used by the Ukraine army. Somewher from the army bases where the arms were collected to the reaching of the Ukraine army 70% of th arms vanished into hin air and the Black Market in arms flourished,

The corruption in the DOD is a very real problem and is to be eliminated and the Ukraine War is driving that corrupt system to new levels. Tat is one reason why Trump waned the War ended and the fight is on about the future management of the DOD with regard to bribery and corruption is a major problem ttchd to the Ukraine War. is feeding bribery and corruption.

Trump wnaed a forensic aufiit of all transactions entered into by the Defenmse Force and that is going to land a lot of politicians and bureaucrats in jail. Not a happ situation to tsart with. and amde worse by the situation in both Ukraine and the USA..

That is why Trump wants tohe war ended and why he set in DOGE o investigate what is happening in teh Depatment financial amanagement. With financial mismangement the money system is destroyed and as the old roman philosphy is that money is te sinews of all wars the USA is not in a situation where the present War in Ukraine is sustainable.

Another problm is that the navy is in shambles as well, Since 2019 money was prvoided for he manufacture of 2 nuclear powered and armed submarines were included in the Navy budget annaully since then. Bearin in mind the sensitivity of the issue oto incle on of 2 such submarines tmoney was supplied to maintain the submaines. So what ahppened under Biden -

1. Only 2such submarines were completed; and
2. 20 of the 60 such submarines was wihdrawn from service for mintenance priupose and vitually no maintnance was done at all;

What happened to the money provided for in teh budget nobody seems to knows,

To keep supporting a war anywhere is totlly unsustainable and destroying the USA armed forces. The Chinese, Rusians know that the DOD ahs gone off the railsa nd they can do what they please with teh USA i a vey poor state to repond to anything they do, If iden won the eelction in Nvember 2024 Taiwan and South Korea would by now be part of China ad theire would be bugger-all the US Army can do about it,

Both China and ussi kniws that Trump isa difficult bastard to deal with and fear his responses f eh believes they are misbehaving and they do not know how he would react to any malpractices on theri part and eared what h would do. With Biden inm charge the Chinese and Russian kno that Biden was invovled in bribey and corruption and knew he would do nohing to proect US Allies in any event.

For example despite India being a member of BRICS there has been broder clashes between China and India and India was the second important country after France to meet with Trrump to be co-opeerting with the USA as a result. France was the first country to do so even before his inauguration and both Trump and Zelenskyy was invited to the re-opening of the Notre Dame and togeth the three doscissed what would happen in the Ukraine War situation. Comments that te Ukraine Government will not eb invovled in the engotiations is total BS thought up by people that commented onm hsis issue above, Tht is a fac conveniently frgotten by Stav and others,

Trump is a no-nonsence negotiator and both Putin and President Zi know that, They know that if settlments are not reached Trump will react viciously. It is fitting for them to make real proposals that would not clash with US and NATO interests to start with. The n thing that Trump knows is not going to work out is the position of the Crimea and Hegseth hinted at that in the recent NATO meeting. The Stary General of NATO (Rutters) also met with Trump and they knoiw what he wants already.

The key part of teh negotiations is that Crimea will be retained by Russia and that they know is not negotiatiable as to further negotiations to settle the war, - and nobody onjected when Hegseth emntioned it at the recent meeting. I think that Trump will in the end go along with the Minsk agreement also signed twie by Zeelnskyy and he rpevious Ukraine Preiden, - But he Biden Administration sabotaged hsoe agreements and the rea invovlement of NATO couries in sending troops to Ukraine is not the shit Stav cnme up with, Trump will nt participation in negotiations whout consen of the major NATO members, such as France the UK and Germany. The later si a b]prblem though - the Gman colition Governent collapsed and here is n elecion in 9 days time to replac ttoally dismembeed Gemany Govenment.

I read up exensively about media reports on the potential election outcome - also even teh comments of he Guardian and the fear sis that the only future sustainable Government in Germany would eb a coaiion between the CSAU-CDU alliacne and the AffD - and he lefis medi believe a minority coalition between the CSU-CDU Alliance and the leftis media hates that idea, The CDU (Bavarian) coalition part of he Allaiance ill nt work as the CDU opposes any co-operation wh he Greens and the CSU knws hy cannot afford such a thing to happen. So wha will appen in two weeks time is not clear,

The economic siuation in Gemany is in recession for three years running an the poor suffer as a result,

So what is to happen as to a new Government in Gemny is totlaly unclear at present.- we ill kn b 24 February what will appen a to a n Governemnt in Germany. That could obviously impact on what role Germany would play in the Ukraine enogotiations. That elay in forming a new Govrnment in Grmnay is anothe problem that could delay the negotiations on a final agrement to be reached, . . , . . . . .

Most of the above sisues are based on reality in my cse and TDS in the case of the above contributors - but media -inspired BS clouded their opinons totally.

. ,

"Here's the thing about Trump supporters, they never seem to have an opinion of their own, they either just stall, evade or give this vague "Trump will solve it, wait and see" but never go into the details of how they feel an issue should be resolved, just in case Trump does something different and they have to backtrack. They just wait for Trump to do something then mindlessly support it, regardless of any downsides."

This, coming from the very same guy who is not willing to wager that Trump will be far better or worse, in the next 6 - 12 months regarding illegal migration or immigration.... than Biden or Harris did over 4 full years.

I even also offered to publicly apologise to him on here if I got it wrong, which I could..... provided he did the same to me if he got it wrong, such is my strong belief that Trump will be so much better on this issue..... but no.... nothing.

No stalling, evading or vageness on my part..... I told you exactly and precisely what I believed Trump would do, even within a specific timeframe of your own choosing...

"Well, you seem to know exactly what the outcome Trump Jasmin mind will be. So enlighten us. And then let's compare that to the actual outcome when such arrives."

Exactly .... however it seems that he does not have the conviction to put his name on certain issues.

Well, you seem to know exactly what the outcome Trump Jasmin mind will be. So enlighten us. And then let's compare that to the actual outcome when such arrives.

If I where to make the a prediction based on current reports I'd say it will go something like this. Trump and Putin where they have their own separate negotiations that excludes Ukraine and Europe where they will work out a deal between then go back to them with the terms.

Most likely Russia keeps the territory they have now but Ukraine doesn't have to commit to giving up on ever getting that territory back. This isn't actually a sticking point for Ukraine as long as they get sufficient security guarantees.

Unlikely as it is, any requirement for Ukraine to permanently give up on any territory including Crimea will be outright rejected by Ukraine.

Some sort of land swap where Ukraine withdraws from Kursk and Russia gives some territory back possibly around Kharkiv. The Russian's will never accept that remaining in Ukrainian hands but Ukraine won't give it back without something in return.

I'd expect sanctions to stay in place.

European forces provides the defense forces on the ground of which the America's are not part of.

When I say not part of, I mean front line deterrent forces. They won't be manning the demarcation line. Now this might be doable provided the American's agree to provide significant air cover to any such force, American's might otherwise have a limited presence in the form of crews manning air defense systems, technical and logistical support personal.

However a lot of it comes down to what conditions are set in the event of the Russian's attacking the deterrent or Ukrainian forces. If its a case that the response is simply left up to each nation who has sent deterrent forces to decide what to do if and when that time comes then the deal will be rejected by Ukraine and Europe. It would be awful set up to where NATO members forces could be attacked but then other NATO members don't come to their assistance, effectively meaning the end of NATO as an alliance.

If there is an agreement that an attack on the deterrent force or Ukraine would automatically trigger a combined response from all the nations provided including the US (at least in the form of air power) then Ukraine and Europe may accept it.

If it doesn't it will be rejected. Ukraine would fight on regardless. Europe would continue to provide assistance. Europe can probably ramp up its assistance somewhat but it won't be able to fill the gap that would be gone if the American's stop providing aid. The situation will obviously become very difficult for Ukraine.

Stuff like Patriot air defense Ukraine's only real defense against Russian ballistic missiles and HIMAR's can't be provided by Europe, they simply do not have them, only America can provide them in quantity, so the question is if the American's stop providing military aid would they still be willing to sell them these systems instead of providing them as aid, perhaps a deal can be reached where the EU and Ukraine buy them but Ukraine also signs a deal with the US regarding some of its rare earth/mineral resources for the US to supply them that way.

If America agrees to that then Ukraine and Europe might be able to fight on more or less as it does presently at least for another while, 6 months to a year though they will likely lose territory at higher rate than before.

Now if there is no agreement on a joint response to an attack on the deterrent force or on Ukrainian forces I do think it will be rejected but if its not, and Europe and Ukraine feel obligated to accept it then I think the can is simply being kicked down the road and that in a few years time we will be back in a far more dangerous situation where now European countries are directly drawn into fighting.

If it gets to either of these last two points Europe will have to seriously re-access its own security situation. If the American's are saying Europe's security is no longer its concern that's fair enough, Europe will need to establish its own industrial defense base, move away from purchasing American military equipment and become been more independent and assertive in its own foreign policy and no longer play the subservient role it has for decades.

Now by all mean's you guys are free to say what you think is a fair and equitable deal and predict what will happen.

Perhaps something positive about the Trump/Putin agreement is that it would end the war, at least for now.

Ukraine could then in years to come, challenge the legality of the agreement because Ukraine never accepted the terms.

This gives Putin an exit strategy because at the moment he does not have one, leaving him no choice but to continue the war.

Putin is looking frail, and he is unlikely to still be president of Russia in 10 years

This gives Putin an exit strategy because at the moment he does not have one, leaving him no choice but to continue the war.

He does, he controls the media in Russia, he can make up whatever bullshit excuse he wants and sell it to the Russian people, just like he did after the Wagner coup attempt. Its not up to the west to provide him with an off ramp.

Let me give you two issues and that is there will nbe no dealbetween Putin and Putin without full discussion with and incorpoatin g the Support of major NAYT Counries,

Reason: The first meeting between Trump was aorganized and attende by Macron with the Notre Dame Cathedral, The three had a meeting lasting longer than 3 hours in which the three tendes agreed on a path forward,

When Trump had that 90 minute rtelephonic discussion it was xclear that a ceasefire os essenial and peace negtiations will s tart, Rubio phoned appraise Zelenskyy of what was discussed,

If Zelenskyy thinks he can have his will against the wishes of paticipating nations he would soon have to findr asylym elsewhere as his time in Kiev will be limited

The crimea never was part of Ukrainme until the USR in 1953 to incorpora the are in U raine because theyw anted to decrease the impact of Ukrainans on the then USSR Department. In 2014 the residents of the Crimea as to their future aince the 1991 Constitution was cancelled out and 94 % voted to apply to teh Russian Fedration to be incorporated into that country. These people will not acce[pt a provision to force hem to become part of Ukraine is wishful thinkinng ad that will nevcer happen/ .

@Stav, Putin will continue this war until he dies of old age, or a Russian kills him. He has no off-ramp, and Ukraine can't afford to keep losing people every day.

Also, having the EU not be part of the agreement, will ensure that sanctions remain in place.

Putin wants things to go back to where they were before the war with no sanctions etc. He knows that the sanctions will damage Russia in the long run, especially when the war ends and Putin can no longer prop up the economy with arms production.

I would prefer not to fund Putin, so we just do not need their oil and gas services.

"I would prefer not to fund Putin, so we just do not need their oil and gas services."

Ask the gGerman wht they think about that statement - electricity up 9% - gas switched off so people and no means of warming their flats people looing in rubbish cans for wase edibles and you ma y ge a little bit wiser. Ask h e farmers about how much extra they have to pay now for ferilizerss they get from Russia and do be afraifd they will kick your arse if you come up with that kind of BS.

Sb

Get it into youtr thick skull - Putin nevr wan ted h e wr and sig ned woa g reement to prevent it. Biden undermine both, Biden did everything in h is pwer to get and keep e war going,

So i now came out who was acually the Presiden of the USA, It npw came ut tat whenm Bden met wih even h is cabinnt Hune was there to help him. So what would thateman for Ukraine - futher ouright corruption in providing aid funding to Ukraine. Biden price was 10% of e vl ue of the garant and Hunter's 10%. Part of Biden's loot is paid to Pelosi and Schiff, Biden's pardons is going up in smokway.e and

DumbMike is as backward as some of the Russians are...

Putin will want to save face, period

This war has made him look like an idiot in front of the entire world

A war that was supposed to last less than one week, has now carried on for 3 years, and it was supposed to show the supposed incredible strength and resilience of the Russian military personnel....and it ended up doing the exact opposite.

The negotiations will have to have some component built in where Ukraine concede something to Putin, for him to walk away without looking like the loser in this.

Stav believes that he should give some tax money and Ukraine should keep giving blood...until an agreement is reached that Stav is happy with.

It doesn't matter that the ex soviet states wanted to join NATO. It doesn't matter that Ukraine is a sovereign nation. What matters is that the trust between NATO and Russia was broken by NATO first. Not Russia. It's not about a sovereign state being allowed to do as they please. It's about who that state is aligning with and what the entities stated purpose is. And indeed about the fact that NATO broke trust first, and then continued to treat Russia as though Russia had no right to security concerns of its own.

Just as none of that would matter if China set up nukes along the Us border. Nobody would give a tiny shit about Mexico's sovereignty, etc. All anyone would care about would be how vulnerable it makes the USA.

When a nuclear superpower warns you that your actions will lead to consequences, and you perpetually ignore them, then consequences are likely.

Didn't Russia warn NATO on countless occasions that it would act?

It's so damn arrogant to expect a country to just accept that an alliance founded specifically to counter them should be allowed to move right onto their doorstep and strategically put themself at a massive disadvantage.

I'm not saying I support the Russian response. What I'm saying is that when you poke the bear you'll get a response.

And I'm also saying, as I said right at the start of this stupidity, overseen by the guy you moronic lefties wanted instead of Trump, that Putin, Ukraine and NATO should have been forced into negotiations by a strong American leader.

And that is being done now.

And if Trump were president back then he'd have done it then and many lives would have been saved.

Bottom line, the weak left failed to prevent this and now Trump has to pick up the pieces.

So shut up, suck it up...and let Trump do what should have happened years ago.

The sad thing is..... when one looks closely at some of the comments that have been made on here since this war started 3 years ago, and especially now that Trump is back in office, it sometimes looks to me like certain people would rather enjoy seeing Trump fail in any way possible, regarding actually ending this war...... just so that they will have the opportunity to be able to say, "I told you so".... such is their hatred of Trump.

Stav believes that he should give some tax money and Ukraine should keep giving blood...until an agreement is reached that Stav is happy with.

Bullshit, I've said in the past that I believe its up to the Ukraine's to decide when and if to stop fighting and I I also believes its in Europe's security interest to support them as best they can.

It doesn't matter that the ex soviet states wanted to join NATO. It doesn't matter that Ukraine is a sovereign nation. What matters is that the trust between NATO and Russia was broken by NATO first. Not Russia. It's not about a sovereign state being allowed to do as they please. It's about who that state is aligning with and what the entities stated purpose is. And indeed about the fact that NATO broke trust first, and then continued to treat Russia as though Russia had no right to security concerns of its own.

Ah yes so those countries don't matter, and the over hundred million who live there have no right to security and live without the fear of Russian domination? Sovereignty doesn't matter, its about who holds the largest gun right?

How did NATO break the trust first. If your talking about the agreement not to expand eastwards, NATO never actually signed up to that agreement (it was a verbal communication that was retracted and never written into any legally binding agreement) and the first round of NATO expansion after the fall of the USSR occurred with Russian approval.

Sure Russia has security concerns of its own, but they don't just override the security concerns of everyone else and anyone with an iota of sense knows this whole thing was never about security for Russia, it was about NATO and the EU effectively blocking Russia's ability to coerce and control neighboring countries into doing what it wanted.

Just as none of that would matter if China set up nukes along the Us border. Nobody would give a tiny shit about Mexico's sovereignty, etc. All anyone would care about would be how vulnerable it makes the USA.

What's nuke's got to do with it. NATO hasn't moved any nukes into any country bordering Russia. Lets ignore the fact that Russian's have nukes in Kaliningrad yet the Germans and Poles have accepted that for years And your also ignoring the fact that eastern Europe has completely justified concerns about Russian aggression, Mexico isn't worried that the US will invade it (well maybe not now with Trump in charge)

When a nuclear superpower warns you that your actions will lead to consequences, and you perpetually ignore them, then consequences are likely.

So we all just surrender to them then, we all just give into blackmail? F**k freedom or democracy.

Didn't Russia warn NATO on countless occasions that it would act?

NATO enlargement was just an excuse. If it was the genuine cause they wouldn't have the need to make up absolute horseshit about genocide in the Donbass, Nazi's running Ukraine, staging multiple false flag operations and Putin and other propagandists wouldn't be writing long essay's on why Ukraine is really part of Russia and Ukrainian's don't really exist distinct from Russians.

It's so damn arrogant to expect a country to just accept that an alliance founded specifically to counter them should be allowed to move right onto their doorstep and strategically put themself at a massive disadvantage.

Its so damn arrogant to expect countries that Russia which had for decades oppressed and killed millions of its citizens would look at the modern Russian state, lead by an authoritarian leader with sham elections that kills and imprisons all internal opposition, that has conducted several dirty wars and propped up murderous regimes abroad, that routinely violates their airspace/territorial waters and commits cyber attacks against them and that has conducted assassinations with biological weapons on its territory would not seek protection and leave themselves exposed to be become vassal states of Russia.

I'm not saying I support the Russian response. What I'm saying is that when you poke the bear you'll get a response.

Your just coincidentally use their talking points and justifications. So Russia doesn't bear any responsibility what so ever for fostering mistrust in Europe about them, they can poke the west as much as they want eh?

And I'm also saying, as I said right at the start of this stupidity, overseen by the guy you moronic lefties wanted instead of Trump, that Putin, Ukraine and NATO should have been forced into negotiations by a strong American leader.

The only moron's are the people who think Trump is a strong leader. He's a bad joke who's only major skill is being able to manipulate people who are even dumber than he is into supporting him against their own interests. If American's want to be taken in by some New York conman, that's their business, the rest of the world doesn't have to go along with it.

And that is being done now.

He's an appeaser, Xi Jinping is looking at this and seeing it as nothing but weakness thinking Trump won't care if we attack Taiwan, at most China will just have to bear a few years of of half hearted military and economic pressure, but eventually the American's will cut a deal with them. But but Biden was weak with the Afghanistan withdrawal and if that never happened Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine they claim but here they are claiming that's Trump's pre negotiation concessions aren't anything other than the US showing weakness to Russia.

And if Trump were president back then he'd have done it then and many lives would have been saved.

Blah blah blah.

Bottom line, the weak left failed to prevent this and now Trump has to pick up the pieces.

You can criticize Biden and other countries handling of the war up till now but they aren't the ones capitulating to Russia. All Trump want's to do is get a ceasefire no matter the cost or the terms so then he gets to brag to his base that did it, then walk away and say its not my problem. If it all goes to pot afterwards he will just blame Europe or Ukraine (won't be Russia)

So shut up, suck it up...and let Trump do what should have happened years ago.

Not setting yourself up for a fall here are you.

Why on earth did Trump make concessions on Ukrainian territory and NATO membership before negotiations had even begun.

Already answered. DJT pictures himself as a master negotiator. By taking Russia's demands and making them appear as his own, he saves the face. Russia will get nothing that the US have not given Russia. It is warped perception driven by liberal minds.

Putin as written on this obard already anticipated the move by telling that Trump was an uncompromising negotiator with the interests of the US at heart. This means that all the demands made by Russian and conceded by the US are painted as fitting the US best interests as Trump embrace them. Russia is humilating the US right now. Russia has managed to get the US to tell that major concessions are benefitial to the US and coming from them. This way, all what Russia is going to get is going to be guarantee by the US themselves as breaking the agreement would mean hurting the US best interests.

Liberals invert most of things and they are now caught in jiu jitsu way as Putin sues their habit against them.

Obviously, the Ukraine not joining the NATO, the Ukraine losing important ore desposts in favour of Russia (and China) goes against the US deep best interests. Yet Trump as he is willing to appear as a great negotiator will paint them as massive victory for the US. When they are tremendous failures. Russia will throw bones at the US as they know being too greedy is not that good in a negotiation.

S B

Yu are twisted totallym The firs t req irement for any treay would be that Ukraine will get a ne C on stitution to replace he rejected one. Th is Constitution will be compiled by experts to preent another dispute. The C Constitution will deal in detail with the Ukraine territorial are and guarantees of human rig hts and freedom of speech. Tat Constitution will then be approved in a reerendum in which all voters wikvbe able to vote - aklso the refugees and will be conducted unde supervision of the EU.

It si not fr Zelenskyy to decie wha t will be in the Constitution it is for the voters to do so. Once the Constitution is approved - the enext at ge is set in an election will be held - agin under international supervision and wh ena new Parliament is in place an a new Present elected th power will be handed ove to the elected Govenment.

Once a new Government is in place an international Committee shall take over reconstruction of iinrastructure, The Ukraine Government will hae representaives in that Committee - Ukraine is and was the mos t corrupt country in Europe and thar hs made it 10 time worse, Nobody will trust Ukraine to ha ndle amjor recconstruction rpojects running into hudreds of billions of dollar poid by oreign institutions.

The situation could chang if th e enw Government could be trus t ed, and prove so.. I think Trump wil encurgae private secor in Ukraine too/

It sia complicated siuation where maj or mining companies wol mine the rare minrerals and amde sure the Ukraine Govenment collect taxes due and thats uch compnaie will also b active in the housing development field.

Zelenskyy om te 2019 election promised that he would end the civil war in Eastern Ukraine - which the USA undermined and h e ebame a will servant of the Biden Administration - who promised black rock a G overnmetn Grnat of $4000 billion to incvest in infrstrucutre Development -uthey h ad a different ideaam SoBlckrock established to susidarycopanies to deal with t he Ukraine issue, There irst priority ws to buy u all poductive arricultural land in Eastern Ukrine - that would be wholesale looting in Eastern Ukraine. They will get all the mining righs and control food production in Ukraine.

, . ,

Dupicate

Europe could be part of a 3-way negotiation with Putin and Trump. The problem is Europe is a committee. There is no real European leader and negotiations are often, perhaps mostly between individuals. And for the same reason it’s hard to see Europe leading in the defense of Ukraine.

It’s so predictable to see all Trump’s enemies out there judging the result before there even is a result, tainting it because they are terrified he might succeed. A little bit of optimism might serve the world well, enough of the dark, humorless gloom of the little men in suits

Wh at I wrote above is ab sicall what ws in the 2015 minsk agreement signed by President Porochenko for Ukraie and Ptuin. and countersigbed by Merkel and Macron and afterwards acceped as basis for handlling the situation and top the Civil War in Eastern Ukraine. It was also accepted by the curity Council but never implemented because the USA did not support it at the time and it was not as hig h a priroity with Trump as it should have been - he wa more interested to stop the never-ending wars in Afghanistan and Iraq ad try and ease the Korean issue,

Diruing the North Korea situation Borth Korea stopped nuclear tests and ftestin g inte-continetal ballistic missles - the moment Bden took over the testing restarted and nothing wa doe about i aftr then.

I think Trump will present the leades of the UK, France, Germany and oItaly o his propoed agrement ad once they are in ageement he will repesent tit to Ukraine for inputs and present what came out of that to Putin and that would put both Zelenskyy and SZelemsky in a tight spor, ne t heya greed will tell putin he think it time to iplmtnyt the agreement. It will put Putin in a rather difficult spot and the end will be implmentation of the Minsk agreement.since e signed the agrement twice,

Incidenally the 1991 Ukraine was based on the basic principelsd of the USA Constitutiionm and am an example was that the Crimea had thei own Parliament dealing with what in the USA would be State Functions.

Unlike the ot her emmebrs I do not think Trump is an idiot and n either a crook - so I think their ideas are in fact B S.

"Ah yes so those countries don't matter, and the over hundred million who live there have no right to security and live without the fear of Russian domination? Sovereignty doesn't matter, its about who holds the largest gun right?"

Which came first? NATO moving east or Russia re-invading one of its former "properties"?

You don't know that Russia would have invaded anyone had NATO not moved east.

What we do know is that NATO broke the trust first. And that being the case, it doesn't matter who wishes to join or what their status as a sovereign state is, the party in the agreement that matters to Russia is NATO.

You're being disingenuous again by insinuating that I'm saying the lives of the people in those countries don't matter.

When what I am saying is that without NATO's involvement all of this may be a non-issue today.

NATO enlargement was just an excuse. If it was the genuine cause they wouldn't have the need to make up absolute horseshit about genocide in the Donbass, Nazi's running Ukraine, staging multiple false flag operations and Putin and other propagandists wouldn't be writing long essay's on why Ukraine is really part of Russia and Ukrainian's don't really exist distinct from Russians.

What a load of absolute bollocks. Russia might be fully justified in invading Ukraine AND could make up as many stories as they like to strengthen their propaganda cause. Unless of course you're saying that justification for conflict negates all need for further propaganda. Sloppy, Stav.

Anyhoos...I know that you remember me telling you that this was a failure in diplomacy. America and Europe should have stepped up and threatened all parties involved if conflict went ahead and a peaceful resolution wasn't reached.

But much like the "follow the science" call that your homies couldn't help screaming during COVID, it was all about "Ukraine must be allowed to defend itself"...

And look at where they are now. How many dead? How much land are they gonna lose?

Now, as if by some preordained twist of ironic fate, Trump has to be the one who has to try and get a deal for Ukraine.

Imagine if in1941, instead of entering the war against Nazi Germany on the side of Britain & other allied European nations, the president of the United States had rung up Hitler, reflected on 'the Great History of our Nations', & then talked about jointly ending 'The War with Germany/Britain'.

www.theguardian.com/profile/timothygartonash

"Imagine if in1941, instead of entering the war against Nazi Germany on the side of Britain & other allied European nations, the president of the United States had rung up Hitler, reflected on 'the Great History of our Nations', & then talked about jointly ending 'The War with Germany/Britain'."

What garbage.

That's what your Cult Meister's proposing ............ you're a fwit BP.

What are you proposing bob...full on war between NATO and Russia?

Which came first? NATO moving east or Russia re-invading one of its former "properties"?

Which came first?...that would be the occupation of eastern Europe by Russia for 45 years.

You don't know that Russia would have invaded anyone had NATO not moved east.

Can't say with hundred percent certainty that they wouldn't have no. But we can look at the Russian's states actions since Putin came to power and make an educated guess.

What we do know is that NATO broke the trust first. And that being the case, it doesn't matter who wishes to join or what their status as a sovereign state is, the party in the agreement that matters to Russia is NATO.

Even Gorbachev himself refuted the claim that NATO ever gave such an agreement.

You're being disingenuous again by insinuating that I'm saying the lives of the people in those countries don't matter.

When what I am saying is that without NATO's involvement all of this may be a non-issue today.

And without NATO's involvement we might be very well talking about a Russia invasion of the Baltic states or Poland with Ukraine being absorbed by Russia years ago.

What a load of absolute bollocks. Russia might be fully justified in invading Ukraine AND could make up as many stories as they like to strengthen their propaganda cause. Unless of course you're saying that justification for conflict negates all need for further propaganda. Sloppy, Stav.

So basically Russia can lie all it wants and make up any old excuses, fine by you. Tell me if they lie about all those other things has it not crossed your mind that maybe they are also lying about the threat from NATO as well. You claim not to be a supporter of Russia but boy are you making a lot of excuses for them.

Anyhoos...I know that you remember me telling you that this was a failure in diplomacy. America and Europe should have stepped up and threatened all parties involved if conflict went ahead and a peaceful resolution wasn't reached.

There has a long time collective failure by the west in countering Russia's action's and influence. The time for strong actions that ultimately would have cost far less in the long run was in 2014 with Russia's occupation of Crimea and actions in Eastern Ukraine. But to Russia's eyes the west has been weak for a long time. Lets go through the list.

2008, Russia invades Georgia and effectively annexes part of Georgia. The west did nothing.

2008, Germany and France block NATO membership for Ukraine.

For decades European NATO member states have allowed military spending to decline followed by a consistent failure to meet the 2% defense spending pledge.

In addition to this, many European states started buying large quantities of energy supplies from Russia, giving the impression of a European energy dependency on Russia.

2014, Russia occupation of Crimea and Russia intervention in Eastern Ukraine. Overall the west's response was a weak sanctions package imposed on Russia that they where easily able to endure.

2015, Syrian civil following a weak western response, Russia intervened propping up the Assad regime gaining influence and military bases in the middle east at the expense of the west.

2016-Present, Trump Presidency saw a US President who drove divisions in NATO. In addition to his loud verbal squabbling with European NATO and potential talk of withdrawing from NATO, he also tried to blackmail Zelensky by with holding arms to Ukraine in exchange for him digging up dirt on his political rival and in a public press conference stated he took the word of Putin over that of his own intelligence services in addition to a generally soft approach on Russia. Through out the the President Election campaign, Trump also criticized the west/Ukraine for its handling of the war.

2021, US withdrawal from Iraq. While the US maintains a limited presence in Iraq, the overall outcome of the Iraq war is an Iraq now aligned or under the influence of Iran an enemy of the US/West.

2021, The Afghanistan withdrawal debacle.

This is the issue with the right wing Trump supporting types. They call Biden weak and sort of imply that Aghan withdrawal debacle was what encouraged Putin to finally go ahead with the full scale of invasion of Ukraine and while there might be some element of truth to that, it wouldn't have been enough on its own without the consistent decades long failure and weakness of the the collective west, be it various European countries under various leader, or the US under various administrations, Obama, Trump, Biden.

But much like the "follow the science" call that your homies couldn't help screaming during COVID, it was all about "Ukraine must be allowed to defend itself"..

Oh FFS.

And look at where they are now. How many dead? How much land are they gonna lose?

And you know for certain that had Trump been in power all of Ukraine wouldn't be occupied by now do you?

Go on tell me about the deal that would or prevented the war.

Now, as if by some preordained twist of ironic fate, Trump has to be the one who has to try and get a deal for Ukraine.

Here's the thing, I supported Trump's attempt to get a deal with North Korea. He tried, he failed but in effect it was a free shot with no real harm done by failing, as in the situation did not become any worse than before he tried. As you know I can't stand Trump, but I have given Trump credit in the past (Abraham Accords, Warpspeed, Gaza truce) and if he can pull off a reasonable peace deal for Ukraine, that would be great (and no I'm not expecting him to get Ukraine territory back). But so far the indications are not good. It looks like he cutting Ukraine out of the loop just as he did when he bypassed the Afghan government and negotiated directly with the Taliban to disastrous effect. He appears to have a number of concessions already, with the American's even now talking about reducing troop numbers in Europe and we have not one iota of a concession yet from Russia.

Ukraine needs to at the negotiating table, as does Europe if its expected to front up the bulk of a deterrent force and both Ukraine and Europe need to know that America will provide some kind of significant support if Russia breaks any ceasefire.

You can't have the talks without Ukraine (and European rep).

Instead what you have could best be described as a meeting between a felon & a war criminal.

Unfkg-believable.

Ok ....so what happens then if Europe, the US and Ukraine all sit around the table with Russia, and no matter what proposal gets put forward by all parties... Ukraine don't accept or agree to anything at all....

How do you move forward from there...... because I can only realistically see one way forward from that....., and that would be for Ukraine to accept the proposals from your two main contributors that are assisting you in this war.....or go on your own, which would be an absolute massacre.

Who are the two main contributors?

A war that was supposed to last less than one week,

Liberals seem intoxicated by their own propaganda. The perception that the war should have been ended in one week was liberal perception.

"Who are the two main contributors?"

You should know this already

The US and the European Union

My concern's about Ukraine's presence .