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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  Ukraine Counter Offensive Strategy

Ukraine Counter Offensive Strategy

Started by sharkbok51 REPLIES849 VIEWS· 03 Jul 2023, 15:45
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SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
03 Jul 2023, 15:45
#1
03 Jul 2023, 15:45#1

It has been slow so far, with apparently a high number of deaths on both sides.

However, Ukraine has stated to be patient.
The current offensive appears to be a probing strategy to identify gaps for breaking the line of defence

Russia has reportedly built the most comprehensive ground defence ever- more than in the world wars.
It has dragon scale, dugouts and landmines for hundreds of miles across the whole territory - a bit like the barriers between North and South Korea.

However, they only have to break the line of defence in one or two places for the rest of the army to get through - and then go around?

That should make the rest of the defence pointless because Ukraine would just go around the area(s) that have been penetrated. 

CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
03 Jul 2023, 16:30
#2
03 Jul 2023, 16:30#2

Entrenched positions like they currently  have just means a blood bath for both sides. You don't need to look past the first world War.

The only reason the Ukraine made large advances last time was because the Russians weren't dug in.

Unless something changes and it becomes a mobile war again it just means more senseless deaths.

There has to be a peace talk sooner rather than later or many more will die for no reason apart from one man's fuckin ego

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
03 Jul 2023, 17:15
#3
03 Jul 2023, 17:15#3

They might need to make a few big hits a different points on the line of defence. Then hopefully break 2 or 3 areas at the same time, to ensure the Russians don't have time to move more of the defence to one point of attack.

If they can get enough soldiers around the line of defence, it would be much easier to use the top-of-the-range tanks provided. 

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
03 Jul 2023, 18:14
#4
03 Jul 2023, 18:14#4

"Entrenched positions like they currently  have just means a blood bath for both sides. You don't need to look past the first world War.

The only reason the Ukraine made large advances last time was because the Russians weren't dug in.

Unless something changes and it becomes a mobile war again it just means more senseless deaths.

There has to be a peace talk sooner rather than later or many more will die for no reason apart from one man's fuckin ego"


Bravo!!! excellent post!!! This senseless $h!t can't continue...we need it to stop ASAP!

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
03 Jul 2023, 19:26
#5
03 Jul 2023, 19:26#5
No one is going to stop Putin, unless he is killed - but even that could just lead to an upgrade of Putin v2.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
03 Jul 2023, 19:42
#6
03 Jul 2023, 19:42#6

so we keep throwing people into the meat grinder?

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
03 Jul 2023, 20:03
#7
03 Jul 2023, 20:03#7
Russia is not going to leave Ukraine, it is too late in the game for that now.
Ukraine is not going to concede territory - unless they can see they are going to lose. 

"We" are not sending anyone to die in war. 
Its a stalemate. There is no offramp for Putin. 

However, apparently, Russia's reserves might be non-existent by the end of this year. 
If that happens they will be bankrupt, and it will impact their economy even more- and make Putin and increasing target. 

Putin had started saving for the last 6 years to get the reserve to a historical high- so he has been planning this war for ages. (Before Trump or Biden). 

It seems Russia has been lying about its GDP as well. 


ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
03 Jul 2023, 20:33
#8
03 Jul 2023, 20:33#8

The only reason the Ukraine made large advances last time was because the Russians weren't dug in.

Not true, in Kharkiv part of the reason they advanced was they tricked Russia into thinking Kherson was where Ukraine was solely focusing and Russia withdrew forces out of the Kharkiv region to be redeployed to Kherson. Russia counter attacks where also poorly co-ordinated and went in piece meal which ended up in the routing of one of Russian's most elite units.

The reason they took Kherson was that they reduced the Russian supplies into the city by destroying the Antoniskyi Bridge to such a level the Russian's where unable to sustain an effective defence and where forced to withdraw.

Some have suggested that a similar strategy could be used to retake Crimea without actually needing to invade, but that assumes Ukraine can cut the land bridge to Crimea and get access to longer range missiles and can take out the Kerch Bridge.

Unless something changes and it becomes a mobile war again it just means more senseless deaths.

It looks almost certain the American's will give Ukraine ATACAM's in the next few weeks which will greatly increase the range that Ukraine can hit Russia behind the lines. As for senseless death's is defending your homeland a senseless act?

so we keep throwing people into the meat grinder?

No, what the west should stop doing is dilly dallying and send Ukraine what it needs to win the war not merely avoid loosing it. So that includes longer range missiles and fighter aircraft and anything else Ukraine needs to drive Russia out of Ukraine. That's is what will save lives and the end the war sooner.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jul 2023, 05:16
#9
04 Jul 2023, 05:16#9

The large advancements made by Ukraine was inventions by the Ukraine Government.   Stav and others mentioned two citiies being besieged by the Russians.   Look at the bloody map of Ukraine where battles are taking place.   

In the talks negotiations Ukraine insisted that thee would be no negotiations as long  as the Russian Army is threatening Kiev.   The Turks then urged Russia to withdraw their army threatening Kiev and the propaganda of Russia losing the war in the area was BS.   As it was the theater of war moved to Eastern Ukraine where the Ukraine army lost every battle and fell back ever time.   

The  Russians allowed the Ukraine army to occupy Kerkhov and like in Bakmut surround the city and they will force the Ukraine army to surrender or fled from the city after being virtually totally destroying the Ukraine army units involved.   Kharkov is a Russian city and was on from the 13th century with many historic buildings in the city.   The Russians will try and not destroy those - in the end the city will be captured - and the Ukraine army will suffer huge losses in the process.   

The only way in which Odessa, Kharkhov and Kherhov will be retained by the Ukraine will be if NATO send troops to provent loss of those three cities will be for NATO to send in troops to defend the cities and any Government f EU countries supporting that would fall in record time.  Local elections showed that nobody want a war between NATO and Russia.  In the USA and Canada the Congress and Parliamnt would have to approve a war against Russia.    So NATO entering Ukraine will not be approved by legislative authorities.  So dream on warmongers - your hate of peace negotiations  is getting the better of you.  

                       

     

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
04 Jul 2023, 05:47
#10
04 Jul 2023, 05:47#10
It's very easy to cheer from the sidelines. Never accept defeat they say while it's it's not their blood being spilled. I'd love to see how FishNuts responds when he gets held up at gunpoint. I'm sure calling the guy evil and never giving up the fight will serve you very well FishNuts. Please be sure to tell the next person that robs you how evil they are.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Jul 2023, 08:20
#11
04 Jul 2023, 08:20#11

Pentag revelation show 7 Ukrainian soldiers die for 1 Russian. There is no equivalency at all. This death roughly corresponds to Russian artillery superiority of ten to 1

Then we have the fact Russia rules the skies.

The Russians have an army now if some 700,000 men. They can mobilize many, many more. The Ukra8n population has dwindled to around 29 million. Rusdia has 146 million. 

Further Russia has no ammunition of military hardware shortage. The Ukrainians do. 

The fantasies of jackasses like Shark TWIT and StavAss are amazing. 

These clowns can't seem to understand that Russia entered Ukraine with a small expeditionary force hoping to force negotiations. These nigotistions happened but we're scuppered by US led NATO. 

The Ukranian have now burnt through their reserves. They have precious little left. The Russian now are ready to go on the offensive. 

But the illigitimate Biden Regime wants a fight to the last Ukranian soldier. 

Why do you think both Trump and RFK say they can stop the war in 24 hours. BECAUSE THE US ARE THE ONES PROLONGING THE WAR YOU COMPLETE MORONS. 

What this rogue illigitimate Biden Regime has achieved, quite deliberately, is to turn the rest of the (bar a few countries) World against THE West. 

Jackasses like Shark TWIT  and that numpty StavAss dont understand anything. Dumb as a rock they are. 

Do they grasp what the Globalist Cabal is trying to do regarding debanking. It all flies right over their empty heads! Man how do you get this daft. 


SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
04 Jul 2023, 09:33
#12
04 Jul 2023, 09:33#12
If Ukrainians were like ButtPlug, Russia would have already conquered Ukraine and turned it into part of Russia. 
If the Allies of Ukraine were like ButtPlug, Russia would have already conquered Ukraine and turned it into part of Russia. 

Hitler was appeased in World War 2, and it was a proven mistake. 
Buttplug's solution is to just allow Russia to colonise Ukraine.

Most of the conservative candidates in the US would have given more military support to Ukraine than Biden. 

Dumb religious people who support Putin are not proper conservatives, so they like Trump who is not a proper conservative either. 
Religious Christians never used to be so crazy. It appears to be a reaction to being cancelled in Western culture as it slips into irrelevance. 

This leaves the religious with choices of:

1) Start facing reality without an imaginary friend (Accept that religion is just a man-made entity (E.g. Jesus did not die for everyone's sins)
2). Being anti-everything that is associated with the West. 


SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
04 Jul 2023, 09:38
#13
04 Jul 2023, 09:38#13
dumbmike

Hall Of Fame

48649 posts

Jul 04, 2023, 05:16

 Kharkov is a Russian city and was on from the 13th century with many historic buildings in the city.   The Russians will try and not destroy those - in the end the city will be captured - and the Ukraine army will suffer huge losses in the process.   

------------------
By this line of reasoning, South Africa is still a colony of England- which means we can put DumbMike in a cage. 

Borders change and it becomes an accepted internal law thereafter. 

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
04 Jul 2023, 09:56
#14
04 Jul 2023, 09:56#14

The question of which country is older, Russia or Ukraine, is a complex and sensitive one, as it touches upon historical, political, and cultural aspects. Both Russia and Ukraine have long and intertwined histories, making it difficult to determine a clear answer.

The region that encompasses modern-day Ukraine has been inhabited for thousands of years by various Slavic, Turkic, and other indigenous peoples. Kyivan Rus, a medieval East Slavic state, was established in the 9th century and is often considered the predecessor of both Russia and Ukraine. Kyivan Rus was centred in present-day Ukraine but also extended into parts of Russia and Belarus.

Over time, the territories of Kyivan Rus fragmented into separate principalities, some of which eventually evolved into the Grand Duchy of Moscow, a precursor to modern Russia. Meanwhile, the western parts of the former Kyivan Rus territory saw the emergence of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland, among other states.

In the 17th and 18th centuries, the region experienced a series of conflicts, including invasions by the Mongols, Tatars, and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. These conflicts and the subsequent partitions of Poland-Lithuania led to the incorporation of Ukrainian territories into different empires, including the Russian Empire.

Ukraine's modern national identity began to form during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, with the rise of various Ukrainian nationalist and independence movements. Following the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the subsequent turmoil, Ukraine declared its independence from Russia and established the Ukrainian People's Republic in 1918.

However, the Ukrainian People's Republic faced significant challenges, including conflicts with both the Russian Bolsheviks and the Polish forces. Eventually, Ukraine was divided between the Soviet Union and Poland through various treaties and agreements.

During the Soviet era, Ukraine was a constituent republic of the Soviet Union, while Russia was also a part of the Soviet Union. Both countries existed within the framework of the larger Soviet state until the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991. After the breakup, Ukraine declared independence once again, followed by Russia.

In summary, while the region that encompasses modern-day Ukraine has a longer historical lineage with the establishment of Kyivan Rus in the 9th century, the concept of a distinct Ukrainian state emerged more recently in the 20th century. Russia, on the other hand, has a longer continuous existence as a state entity, tracing its roots back to the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the subsequent formation of the Russian Empire.

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
04 Jul 2023, 09:58
#15
04 Jul 2023, 09:58#15

The point is that borders have changed around the world so many times, the only thing that is legal is the current legal status - otherwise any country would have grounds to invade other nearby countries.



SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
04 Jul 2023, 10:20
#16
04 Jul 2023, 10:20#16


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jul 2023, 11:28
#17
04 Jul 2023, 11:28#17

Stav and SB

After studying documents relating to the Truish initiative to reach agreement on a ceasefire - those were -

*    A Ukraine demand for the withdrawal from Ukraine of the Russian troops threatening Kiev; and 

*    like in the case was in the Minsk agreement - Russia demanded that the future of  Crimea is not negotiable.   

The Russian army threatening Kiev was withdrawn without any major battles be fought so as to allow or further negotiations.   The media claimed that the withdrawal of the army threatening Kiev took place because the Kiev army defeated the Russian army and that BS was since then constantly repeated by the media and faithfully repeated by the site warmongerers on site.   

At the time I could not understand  why the Russian force withdrew without a major battle be fought,   It only became clear to me when the negotiations  started and progressed In Turkey.   When that withdrawal was underway negotiation continued until the WH demanded that the Ukraine Minister of Foreign Affairs must end participation in the negotiations.  

Ukraine was never an independent country on its own until 1991.   Since the Russian Communist Party felt betrayed by Ukraine in WW2  when the Ukraine allied itself with the Nazi's the Communists in 1953 decided to neutralize the influence of the Ukrainian speaking part of Ukraine by adding to Ukraine an area that never in the history was part of Ukraine.   When the negotiations about independence of Ukraine started in 1991 the Russians allowed for the area of Eastern Ukraine that was until 1953 part of Russia remains a part of Ukraine and insisted that the rights of individuals be enshrined in the Ukraine constitution.   T heat5 situ8ation changed when the USA organized and funded the 2014 coup and the Constitution was abandoned the civil war broke out in 2014.

The Russians living in Ukraine did not want to be part of a proxy governed American state in  Ukraine.

By the way Stav - the alleged Kiev plot to misled Russia about the attack on Kherkov is BS.  Russia knows every detail of the Ukraine army from satellite coverage.    Apparently the Kiev Government got the satellite coverage from the USA - but whether the Kiev Govenment is capable on using the satellite info is debatable.

       

                         

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
04 Jul 2023, 11:51
#18
04 Jul 2023, 11:51#18
"After studying documents relating to the Truish initiative to reach agreement on a ceasefire"
Hmmm . . . so not very true then, just "truish"?
Sadly, there's nothing remotely truish about the junk you post ou Maaik. It's just right wing propaganda that you're not even capable of reproducing in a way that makes it vaguely coherent.
Stick to machine masturbating ou Maaik. By all accounts that's the only thing you do well.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Jul 2023, 14:04
#19
04 Jul 2023, 14:04#19

Rooitwit you foul degraded degenerate slob. Up your game.

You can't answer Mikes great points so you do your usual pervert line. 

The Ukraine counter offensive strategy is to throw their troops into the meat grinder and lose equipment hand over fist. 

The scumbags in Washington are making a pile of money over the deaths of these people and the destruction of the country not to mention Russian deaths even though far fewer. They have pronged this war. 

Your trouble us you are seldom coherent. You don't understand things. Comprehension skills are low. Have a closed bigoted nature you not really open to evaluating things. Being exceeding glible you repeat the fake news media like a we trained parrot. You lack critical thinking  skills. 

I like Mike who dies his homework and has an independence of mind

You could learn a lot from Mike if you had the capacity. But alas you have very little capacity.  Bwahahahahahaha. 



BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Jul 2023, 14:32
#20
04 Jul 2023, 14:32#20

Shark TWIT you complete bone head. What is imaginary is to believe the Universe created itself out of nothing. That is the best the incredibly dumb atheists can do.

Can he who made the mouth not speak. Can God not reveal himself to men. If course he can and does. 

Your part is to seek him with your whole heart.

I am not anti West. I am anti what the Globalist Cabal is trying to make the West. Same with the States. Under Patriotic America  First rule America becomes a blessing to the people of America and the World.

Under Globalist rule America becomes a curse to it's people and the World. Ditto the EU.

Outside of the West countries are being repelled by what the West is today. It's perverse and disgusting. 

Hopefully the electorate will throw these sick twits out. 



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jul 2023, 14:57
#21
04 Jul 2023, 14:57#21

SB

The Rurikid Princes were all Russian and had nothing  to do with Ukraine.   The Grand Princes ruling Russia were from Novgorod - not  from Ukraine.   Re4ad the following descxription from Wikipedia:-

  Prince Oleg

According to Rus’ Primary Chronicle, the first ruler to start uniting East Slavic lands into what has become known as Kievan Rus’ was Prince Oleg (879–912). He extended his control from Novgorod south along the Dnieper river valley to protect trade from Khazar incursions from the east, and moved his capital to the more strategic Kiev.
Kiev became the headquarters of the Russian Orthodox Church as well.   The Rurikid princes remained living and ruling from Kiev until the city was coquered by th Mongol Golden Hoard in 1240.   Although the Golden Hoard  attacked Moscow a number of occasions the  situation was that Rurikid Princes remained in charge in Moscow and the first defeat of the Golden Hoard army was when  Dimitry Donskoi - the Grand Pince of Moscow defeated the Golden Hoard n the battle of Kulikovski on the river Don.    Aftr that battle the Grand Princes of Moscow became he leading  ruler in Russia. and his great grandson  Ivan !!! established his rule by conqueririg what is today European area of  Russia of today.]
Lesson  1 - the Rurikid princes who ruled in Kiev was a Russian dynasty - the main Branch of which developed through 2 centuries as the rulers in Russia with the headquarters in Moscow.
Your knowledge of history is a distortion.    You should also note that Tolstoy was a descendent of Indris who with his sons and 3000 men moved from Germany and settled in Kharkov. from where his descendent move to Mosco when Vasilli the Blind gave him the Russian surname of Tolstoi - proof that he descedents oIndris and the Germans became integrated into Russian society and under Catherine I (wife of Per the Great who succeeded him as Empress of Russia made the Toltois counts of the Russian empire.


    .                    
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jul 2023, 14:57
#22
04 Jul 2023, 14:57#22

SB

The Rurikid Princes were all Russian and had nothing  to do with Ukraine.   The Grand Princes ruling Russia were from Novgorod - not  from Ukraine.   Re4ad the following descxription from Wikipedia:-

  Prince Oleg

According to Rus’ Primary Chronicle, the first ruler to start uniting East Slavic lands into what has become known as Kievan Rus’ was Prince Oleg (879–912). He extended his control from Novgorod south along the Dnieper river valley to protect trade from Khazar incursions from the east, and moved his capital to the more strategic Kiev.
Kiev became the headquarters of the Russian Orthodox Church as well.   The Rurikid princes remained living and ruling from Kiev until the city was coquered by th Mongol Golden Hoard in 1240.   Although the Golden Hoard  attacked Moscow a number of occasions the  situation was that Rurikid Princes remained in charge in Moscow and the first defeat of the Golden Hoard army was when  Dimitry Donskoi - the Grand Pince of Moscow defeated the Golden Hoard n the battle of Kulikovski on the river Don.    Aftr that battle the Grand Princes of Moscow became he leading  ruler in Russia. and his great grandson  Ivan !!! established his rule by conqueririg what is today European area of  Russia of today.]
Lesson  1 - the Rurikid princes who ruled in Kiev was a Russian dynasty - the main Branch of which developed through 2 centuries as the rulers in Russia with the headquarters in Moscow. .                    
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Jul 2023, 15:03
#23
04 Jul 2023, 15:03#23

Prince Oleg….got it….the whole invasion now becomes clear.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jul 2023, 15:15
#24
04 Jul 2023, 15:15#24

Mozart

You are deluded as ever and a total idiot as well.   Brainwashing is a disease yo u suffer from.    

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Jul 2023, 15:49
#25
04 Jul 2023, 15:49#25

Mozzzzquito nothing is clear to you these days. You are walking in a fog. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
04 Jul 2023, 16:11
#26
04 Jul 2023, 16:11#26
It has been foggy of late on the golf course….Canadian wild fire you know. Amazing that hundreds of  miles away you can smell the fires, but you can.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
04 Jul 2023, 16:25
#27
04 Jul 2023, 16:25#27

It's a tough life Moz. 

Who started those fires. The man made climate change hoaxers will be blaming Global warming.

Next year if there is a freeze they blame CO2 for that as well. Crazy loons. 

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
04 Jul 2023, 17:24
#28
04 Jul 2023, 17:24#28

@DumbMike, you have proven that Oleg was Ukrainian .

Oleg (Old East Slavic Old Norse: Helgi; died 912), known as Oleg the Wise,[a] Oleg of Novgorod, or Oleg of Kiev, was a Varangian prince of the Rus' who became the first prince of Kiev, thereby laying the foundations of the Kievan Rus' state.[12]

It is clear that Russia was part of Ukraine first. So if that argument is going to be used- then Russia is actually part of Ukraine. (not the other way around)

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,198 posts
04 Jul 2023, 17:24
#29
04 Jul 2023, 17:24#29

.

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
04 Jul 2023, 19:43
#30
04 Jul 2023, 19:43#30

The Russian army threatening Kiev was withdrawn without any major battles be fought so as to allow or further negotiations.

So you have changed from the position that Russian never attempted to capture Kyiv?

 The media claimed that the withdrawal of the army threatening Kiev took place because the Kiev army defeated the Russian army and that BS was since then constantly repeated by the media and faithfully repeated by the site warmongerers on site.   

There may not have been one big specific battle that forced the Russian's to withdraw but it was still a strategic failure on Russia's part.

Russia withdrew when they looked at the overall strategic situation. Ukraine hadn't collapsed and that the forces the Russian's had to hand where insufficient to take Kyiv or carry on with the overall operational plan they had for invading Ukraine. They withdrew those forces to concentrate them in the East of Ukraine.

At the time I could not understand  why the Russian force withdrew without a major battle be fought,

Because you're incapable of comprehending reality. You live in a world of conspiracies and suck down Russian propaganda like its cool aid. The Russian invasion plan for Ukraine was simply shit.

It only became clear to me when the negotiations  started and progressed In Turkey.   When that withdrawal was underway negotiation continued until the WH demanded that the Ukraine Minister of Foreign Affairs must end participation in the negotiations.  

Propaganda such as this.

Ukraine was never an independent country on its own until 1991

So what?

Since the Russian Communist Party felt betrayed by Ukraine in WW2  when the Ukraine allied itself with the Nazi's

Mike you're absolute disgrace promoting that Russian lie. Million's of Ukrainian's fought and died fighting the Nazi's, far out numbering those that collaborated. But you keep peddling that absolutely disgusting lie and shilling for Russia. You have no shame.

When the negotiations about independence of Ukraine started in 1991 the Russians allowed for the area of Eastern Ukraine that was until 1953 part of Russia remains a part of Ukraine and insisted that the rights of individuals be enshrined in the Ukraine constitution.   T heat5 situ8ation changed when the USA organized and funded the 2014 coup and the Constitution was abandoned the civil war broke out in 2014.

The Russians living in Ukraine did not want to be part of a proxy governed American state in  Ukraine.                 

More r ubbish. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jul 2023, 22:56
#31
04 Jul 2023, 22:56#31

Oleg was a descendent of Rurik - who was the ruler and had his capital ws in Novgorod.   Rurik apparently was called in from what today is Sweden and the founder of Novgorod as his capital when the Russin rulers in Russia fought amongst themselves.   The situation in Kiev was unstable as a result of the Ottomans - local rulers from the Balkans  who was late on in an alliance with Turkish tribes capture the present city then Constantinople in 1452.   Kiev was before 1452 . an was on the trade route from that city and Novgorod and was ruled from Novgorod ubtntil Oleg moved his residence to Kiev.   When the Mongol army assisted by the same Turkish tribes conquered and destroyed Kiev the Rurikid rulers fled to Russia and the Orthodox Church moved its headquarters to the safer city of Moscow.    Eventually power ended up with the Moscow Principality - while Kiev became part of the Kingdom of Poland.   What is clear is that the Kiev residents surviving  the Golden Hoard (Mongol) was enslaved and the Kief area bcame part of Poland.   the arewa what is today Kiev was repopulted  by people from Poland and even what is today Germany eg the ancesters of Tolstoy. who with a retinue of 3000 soldiers moved to Chernicov and utinmately Kharkov in what was then part of the Rurikid principalities ruling Russia.   The latter area never became part of Poland.   By  1472 the Golden Horde disintegrated and the Princpaltity of Moscow became the Tsars of Russia.  That lasted until the death of the last Rurikid Tsar in 1598.    In Russia Moscow was captured and ruled by the Poles until a Russian Army was formed in Novgorod  and they drove  the poles from Moscow.    The Russian aristocracy then elected a princeling whose father was head of the Orthodox Church and his wife who was a Rurikid princess as Tsar and the Romanov dynasty took over ruling Russia from 1613 to 1917 even though the son of Catherine the Great who succeeded her was probably not fathered by her husband Peter III.   Catherine the Great was instrumental in capturing of the Crimea ending the Muslim sultanate ruling it and also the inclusive of the Kiev region into Russia after she managed the dismantling of Poland and dividing the Polish kingdom to become part of the Habsburg empire and the Prussian kingdom.           

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
04 Jul 2023, 23:20
#32
04 Jul 2023, 23:20#32

Stav

You are taking  BS again.   The Russian Communist Party believed that they were betrayed by the Ukrainians and millions of Ukrainians were deported by Stalin to slave camps in Siberia.   A fter the death of Stalin the Ukrainians surviving the slave camps were allowed to return to Ukraine - but to counter the influence of the Ukrainian population in Eastern Ukraine they incorporated the areas populated by Russian speaking people into the USSR Republic of Ukraine.   

The incorporation of the  Crimea, the Odessa Region and the Donbas region was based on the then Communis Party and has zero to do with the present scenario - but doubtlessly led to the civil war which erupted after the coup in 2014 when the Ukraine constitution of 1991 was nullified.            

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
05 Jul 2023, 07:26
#33
05 Jul 2023, 07:26#33
Mike
Here's the thing you need to understand. When Ukraine become an independent state and how Ukraine's boarder came to be is irrelevant. What matters is that the world along with Russia agreed to recognise those boarders in 1991 and attempting to change those boarders by force of arms is against international law. 
As for the argument the Russia has a greater historical claim to Crimea than Ukraine is also dubious. The people with the strongest historical connection to Crimea as you're probably aware is the Crimean Tatars. During its time of controlling Crimea, Russia persecuted the Tatars and enacted policies that effectively eradicated them from Crimea over time. It wasn't until perestroika era that significant numbers of Tatars returned to Crimea. And when given the choice in 1991 the Tatars voted to join an independent Ukraine.
So why the monkeys would Russia having purged the Tatars from Crimea give them a greater historical claim to Crimea than Ukraine? You're basically arguing the have right because they murdered the previous owners. Imperialism can be done now because imperialism was done in the past?

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
05 Jul 2023, 09:18
#35
05 Jul 2023, 09:18#35
Aye blo.
Some other tidbits of WW2 history. At the Battle of Stalingrad when the Soviets encircled the Germans. One of the two Soviet armies that was encircled was commanded by a Ukrainian. When the Japanese surrendered at the end of WWII that Soviet representative at the surrender ceremony was Ukrainian.
2.5 million medals and rewards where awarded to Ukrainian and inhabitants of Ukraine for their service in World War 2. The highest award in the Soviet Union was Hero of the Soviet Union and that was awarded to 2,074 Ukrainian's. Of the 115 that twice received the award, 32 of them where Ukrainian and one Ukrainian was given the award 3 times.
Of the 800,000 women that served in the Red Army, 127,000 where Ukrainian.
Thousands of other Ukrainian's served in other Allied armies/free armies such as US, Canadian and Polish armies.
But w e have clown's like Mike pushing Russian propaganda, that Ukraine is a Nazi state.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
05 Jul 2023, 10:29
#36
05 Jul 2023, 10:29#36
"But he have clown's like Mike pushing Russian propaganda"
Now that is a bit unfair.
Stav, just imagine for a second that you're a clown. How would you like to be compared to a terminally stupid, deceitful, cowardly old relic like ou Maaik?
I think you owe clowns around the world an apology!
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
05 Jul 2023, 10:32
#37
05 Jul 2023, 10:32#37

 Stav

Organizing, funding an unconstitutional coup and  then  instructed who should be appointed a new government who should be in charge of  an independent country and discarding the country's constitution is worse than what you write about.   On a number of occasions the Russian Government signed agreements to recognise the Ukranian Border and the Ukraine Government agreed  to it and then tore up the agreements on instruction of the USA Government is a crime against humanity.

Most Governments recognized the reality of what happened and they are rejecting the conduct by the USA and realizing the USA cannot be trusted and are rushing to join BRICS - the latest application being by Mexico.     The USA are facing s situation that only weak EU countries remain as allies of the USA - the resisting the chaos the USA causing in the world.    

ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
05 Jul 2023, 10:49
#38
05 Jul 2023, 10:49#38
Now that is a bit unfair.
Stav, just imagine for a second that you're a clown. How would you like to be compared to a terminally stupid, deceitful, cowardly old relic like ou Maaik?
I think you owe clowns around the world an apology!
I retract my previous statement and unreservedly apologise to the clown community.

Organizing, funding an unconstitutional coup and  then  instructed who should be appointed a new government who should be in charge of  an independent country and discarding the country's constitution is worse than what you write about.  

Worse than ethnic cleansing? Because that's what the Russian's did to the Crimean tatars.

But that's aside the point. What happened in 2014 was a revolution staged by the Ukrainian people themselves. The idea that America or the west organised, funded it and choose the new leader is just a blatant lie pushed by Russia.

On a number of occasions the Russian Government signed agreements to recognise the Ukranian Border and the Ukraine Government agreed  to it and then tore up the agreements on instruction of the USA Government is a crime against humanity.

Just bullshit. Absolute and complete bullshit.

Most Governments recognized the reality of what happened and they are rejecting the conduct by the USA and realizing the USA cannot be trusted and are rushing to join BRICS - the latest application being by Mexico.     The USA are facing s situation that only weak EU countries remain as allies of the USA - the resisting the chaos the USA causing in the world.   

And even more bullshit.

DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
05 Jul 2023, 10:53
#39
05 Jul 2023, 10:53#39
Mike worked for the government..... enough said.
The bullshit and lies just never... ever... end .
TH
TheTraditionalistPro4,003 posts
05 Jul 2023, 11:01
#40
05 Jul 2023, 11:01#40

But we have clown's like Mike pushing Russian propaganda, that Ukraine is a Nazi state.

Liberals clinging to their delusion.

All the examples refer to the Ukraine as included in the soviets.

The Ukraine population is divided as any other population. Populations  have been supporting the soviets as they have been supported nazis.

Current Ukraine has promoted the nazi side in an effort to decouple from Russia.

Liberals have a high tolerance to contradiction, they appeal to the soviet past of the Ukraine while what, the current brand of national heroes fought against the soviets and were chosen for that contribution among other things.


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