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FORUM / RUGBY /  A Question of Lawyers - you get the honest ones - like Dave and then you get this

A Question of Lawyers - you get the honest ones - like Dave and then you get this

Started by clevermike318 REPLIES2,604 VIEWS· 12 Oct 2014, 20:32
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
12 Oct 2014, 20:32
#1
12 Oct 2014, 20:32#1

The following is an article that appreared in news 24:]


"One of the reasons President Jacob Zuma believed criminal charges against him relating to the arms deal should be dropped was because corruption is only a crime in a “Western paradigm”, City Press reports.   And even if it was a crime, Zuma’s lawyers apparently argued, it was a crime where there are “no victims”.

These startling insights into Zuma’s 2009 written representations to the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) are contained in a detailed NPA analysis document, which City Press has obtained.

This synopsis is attached to a memorandum dated 3 March 2009 and drawn up by Advocate Billy Downer, the senior state prosecutor who was seconded to the now defunct Directorate of Special Operations (DSO, also known as the Scorpions) for the Zuma investigation.

At the time, Zuma had already been elected president of the ANC but was not yet president of the country. Zuma’s lawyer, Michael Hulley, made representations to the NPA for the charges against him to be dropped.

The document indicates that page 22 of Zuma’s 88-page written submission deals with one of Zuma’s arguments, which the prosecutors restate as follows: “Western paradigm brands this criminal.”

“This” is probably a reference to the types of loans Zuma’s ex-financial adviser, Schabir Shaik, claimed to have innocently given him. Shaik was eventually convicted.

In their scathing response to this point, the prosecutors write: “The law prescribes that it is criminal. Until the law is amended to provide that institutionalised cronyism is not criminal, the ‘Western paradigm’ will have to be accepted.”

The response to the argument that there are no victims to the crime is similarly dismissive: “There are victims. The general public.”

Based on this synopsis, Downer’s memorandum emphatically recommends that the NPA rejects Zuma’s representations.

“Our conclusion is that even in respect of those issues regarding the merits that Zuma does address, there is no adequate answer to the state’s?allegations.

“If anything, Zuma’s representations confirm the structure of the general corruption.”

'Blackmail'

The document also reveals that Hulley apparently argued that one of the considerations that militated against Zuma’s prosecution was that it would cause “general unrest through dissatisfaction with the NPA”.

Downer and the other prosecutors labelled this “blackmail”. “The argument is just as much that not prosecuting will lead to mass dissatisfaction.”

Downer makes a similar point about the so-called spy tapes – intercepted recordings of telephone conversations between the ex-head of the DSO, Leonard McCarthy, and former NPA head Bulelani Ngcuka – saying they amounted “to little more than blackmail”.

“They should be reduced to writing under oath and presented in the normal course, if Zuma wishes to continue to rely on them.”

This week, City Press was granted access by the court to various documents that have been handed to the DA in its court application to have acting NPA head Mokotedi Mpshe’s decision to drop corruption charges against Zuma overturned.

Included among them is the memorandum referred to by Ngcuka in the Sunday Times last week, which he used to accuse Mpshe of misleading the public about the reasons the charges were dropped.

The Scorpions memorandum Ngcuka referred to, dated 6 December 2007, makes it clear that Mpshe had already made a “final decision” that Zuma would not be charged until after the ANC’s 2007 elective conference in Polokwane.

This appears to contradict what Mpshe told South Africans when he announced that charges had been dropped.

In his statement announcing the decision, Mpshe argued the timing of charges against Zuma was manipulated by McCarthy for an illegitimate purpose, namely to influence the Polokwane conference.

Mpshe used the spy tapes, in which they discussed the timing, as a justification for this.

But Mpshe’s “final decision” appears to have been made at least a week before one of the more pertinent discussions between McCarthy and Ngcuka regarding the supposed timing of the matter.

Scorpions team contemplated resigning

In the memo, Downer expresses the bitter unhappiness of the Scorpions team following Mpshe’s decision, revealing that the team had even contemplated resigning.

“We have repeatedly motivated in the strongest possible terms why it is particularly important in the instant case that the prosecutorial decisions must be made purely for prosecutorial reasons,” he writes.

“The team feels so strongly about these principles that we have given serious consideration to terminating our involvement in this investigation.”

In this memo, Downer notes that Mpshe had already approved an application for Zuma to be charged with racketeering.

This application, also among the documents obtained by City Press, contained a prescient appraisal by the prosecuting team of what was to come.

The NPA advocates predict it is unlikely that Zuma would fight the case against him on the merits, which had proven “disastrous” for his former financial adviser Schabir Shaik.

“It is anticipated that they will continue to use every legal device and stratagem to prevent the matter coming to trial.

“These will include an application for a permanent stay of prosecution [and consequent appeals], attacks on the bona fides and integrity of the prosecution team, the DSO and the NPA, [and] the use of the media to ramp up popular and political opposition to the prosecution.”

Lawson Naidoo, the executive secretary for the Council for the Advancement of the South African Constitution, said the statement was “quite shocking”.

He pointed out that South Africa was a signatory to the UN Convention against Corruption, the African Union (AU) Convention on Preventing and Combating Corruption, as well as the Protocol Against Corruption of the Southern African Development Community (SADC).

“So are you saying that the AU and SADC are now following something that is Western?”

On Friday, the ANC said it was “unfazed” and there was nothing new about the story. The party’s spokesperson, Zizi Kodwa, said: “People peddle lies in the public to drive vindictive agendas against President Jacob Zuma. Nothing of credible note has been presented so far.”

Zuma’s spokesperson, Mac Maharaj, did not respond to questions on the president’s views on corruption by the time of going to press."

DISCUSSION

Now why did I find it necessary to quote the above newspaper report on this site.   First of all it shows how the elgal system in South Africa is being manipulted.  Here we have two lawyers who have been schooled in the same legal environment in the ebst common law system inteh world - the Roman Dutch system.   The one is reagrding legality as an expedient to be used when it fits his client and the other sticks to basic honesty in law and legal practice.


This is really an unacceptable farce and it shows to what level legal practice in South Africa by some legal advisors has detriorated.   All that to protect the interest of an individual who had the audacity tospend R256 000 000 of Government money on his provate home, while milliobns in South Afreica lives in shacks in informal settlements without even the most basicof services.  


However,  despite the fact I am not really a "political animal" - the above report contains allegations that is devatstating to  what most South Africans hold dear as a basis for fairness and potection under the law.


On the other hand I am a "rugby animal"  and there are various issues always shining thjrough where lack of principoles are in evidence.   In a leagal sesne I am only aware of one legal practitioner who is a member of this site - and I am prepared to stake my claim on it that he is not the type of crook we have in this case.  He practice in Emngland where such a case would not be allowed to occur - the courts will add harshly with any lawyer trying the Hussey tricks.


But then we have a forum where the Hulley Principles are widely applied in discussing rugby issues.   We only have to look at the widely erratic and unfounded statements made by some members to justify ther pointof view.   I have serious problems with some of the Hulley replicas on this site - and some members should bear in mind that there is some basic principles to adhere to - even in discussion on this forum.   One of the most basic of those are that there should be sound reasons for their statements - and not reasons they fabricate and cannot prove.   Merey because they prefer some players does not mean the have the right to spread false statements about others.     


Now sit back and think who are the Hulleys on this site!!!!!!!  



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
12 Oct 2014, 21:43
#2
12 Oct 2014, 21:43#2
An honest divorce lawyer....now that would be refreshing. But nah....Dave's attempt to deny his prediction of a Welsh win takes that off the table.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
12 Oct 2014, 21:53
#3
12 Oct 2014, 21:53#3
Weren't we told that Dawie's er....... legal practice, kind of, abandoned him?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Oct 2014, 00:53
#4
13 Oct 2014, 00:53#4
I do recall hearing something about that....Dave is a steadfast denier, perhaps he could deny the rumour.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Oct 2014, 02:14
#5
13 Oct 2014, 02:14#5
 Mozart
Are you one of the Hulleys on this Board?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Oct 2014, 02:26
#6
13 Oct 2014, 02:26#6
Speak English OOm.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Oct 2014, 03:24
#7
13 Oct 2014, 03:24#7
Mozart
 Caught out - you certainly act like one
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Oct 2014, 03:31
#8
13 Oct 2014, 03:31#8
 I don't have a clue what you are trying to say OOm....explain.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Oct 2014, 03:56
#9
13 Oct 2014, 03:56#9
Mozart  
Read my original thread input and especially the last two paragraphs and then you may undestand what is meant.   
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Oct 2014, 04:08
#10
13 Oct 2014, 04:08#10
Couldn't be bothered, if you want an answer send me a telegram ie something concise. 
But while we are asking questions, you describe Dave as honest. So do you think he was being honest when he said  his comment that he would put his money on Wales was not a prediction that Wales would win?
But before you answer, remember this thread is about honesty...your turn.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Oct 2014, 10:40
#11
13 Oct 2014, 10:40#11
 Mike Mandela's anc was corrupt from day one. It is a disgraceful organisation made up of inefficient, self serving and corrupt cardres. The black voters need to wake up. How much more of this will they tolerate - if they really care?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Oct 2014, 12:41
#12
13 Oct 2014, 12:41#12
 Beeno
Corruption in Government took place in South Aftrica prior to 1994 as well - but press restrictions made it appear less prevalent.   I want to remind you I was one person who gave evidence before the James Commission of enquiry in the case of Rajbansi corruption and wiped the floor with him - when he asked questions himself.   
The list of NP ministers who even ended up in jail or were quietly disposed of was quite long.   I think that we have to realize that the NP was also a virtually one-party governmetn and that typeof thing breeds corruption - especially of press freedom is restricted as it was under the previous Gocernment.
Since 1994 it was impossible to keep the press quiet about corruption and it was made easier for the press because the seniro Govrnment members were so extravagent and blatant about corruption.   What shocked me about the above article is the following:-
The doc-  u - ment indicates that page 22 of Zuma’s 88-page written submission deals with one of Zuma’s arguments, which the prosecutors restate as follows: “Western paradigm brands this criminal.”      
No previous miscreant has ever used that as a defense in their cases of fraud and corruption.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Oct 2014, 14:10
#13
13 Oct 2014, 14:10#13
You seem to be dodging the question OOM.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Oct 2014, 14:29
#14
13 Oct 2014, 14:29#14
 Mozart
I was referring to Dave in his work capacity - not in respect of his comments on this site.  When it comes to that Whethr he said he puts his moneyon Wales or not - does not relate to dishonesty - it is not dishonest to state opinions before matches on this site.  
What is dishonest is to give distorted information about rugby games that took place and essentially to misrepresent factual information on player performances.   To some extend that also is expression of opinion as to what actually happen - but in many cases it is in fact distortion of how players performed in given matches.
Sit down and think carefully and you will find out who has done so and who not.        
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Oct 2014, 14:33
#15
13 Oct 2014, 14:33#15

No OOOM you are still dodging. You say Dave is honest. Now Dave said before the Welsh game he would put his money on Wales. After they lost he said that was not a prediction Wales would win. Is that honest or a lie.....the accuracy of the prediction has nothing to do with it....its a question about wh ether he made a prediction or not.

 

 

Answer the question. But remember this is your string dedicated to honesty. 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Oct 2014, 14:49
#16
13 Oct 2014, 14:49#16

Moffie are you really that stupid......putting money on something is a saying you idiot, it is not a prediction..........at NO point did I make a prediction about Wales and that is a FACT.

 

But if you think otherwise, kindly provide the evidence of my prediction failing which shut the fuck up you prick  

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Oct 2014, 15:09
#17
13 Oct 2014, 15:09#17
 Mozart
I am not going to go into the debate between you and Dave on the issue of the Qelsh tests.   You doidge the issue on the wider implications as outlined by me.  So lets the matter there.  
BO
BokBFClub Pro421 posts
13 Oct 2014, 15:35
#18
13 Oct 2014, 15:35#18

Saffex 

So what you are saying is that if we had lost to Wales you would not have been all over the board saying "I told you so"?

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Oct 2014, 16:41
#19
13 Oct 2014, 16:41#19
No for the only predictions I made were against Oz and NZ  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Oct 2014, 16:46
#20
13 Oct 2014, 16:46#20
S o Mike in your string about honesty you dodge the question. Some honesty....but never mind your silence speaks volumes. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
13 Oct 2014, 20:28
#21
13 Oct 2014, 20:28#21
 Mozart
It is a fine point.   Putting your money on it is a bet/gamble - not a prediction.   It may  in an indirect way be regarded as a prediction,  but strictly in terms of the intepretation it is not necessarily a prediction.   A clear prediction as such is not necessarily involved tin this case.
In all sincer ity it would have been better to use the phrase "put your moeny on it" than calling it "prediction".   Dave is argueing a fine point and you another one - and the prediction issue would not sand up in any court of law, because it is not precise since as a matter of fact there is no clear prediction in this case - rather a feeling of his own that the Welsh would win.
However, this is a minor point (a storm in a teacup) - the broader and more important issue is that it is expected from members to be honest on a comprehensive basis in their assessment of players after games and that really is a much more signiticant problem on this site..          
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
13 Oct 2014, 22:23
#22
13 Oct 2014, 22:23#22
 Dave made a prediction and got it wrong - AGAIN. 
End of story.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
13 Oct 2014, 22:38
#23
13 Oct 2014, 22:38#23
Beenkop kindly point out my prediction you ignorant prick.
Do you clowns honestly believe your assertion that I made a prediction would stand up in court?
It would thrown out before it reached the bench and costs awarded for wasting the courts time.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Oct 2014, 00:21
#24
14 Oct 2014, 00:21#24
It's a common English expression..."I'd put my money on the fat one" ...meaning I think the fat one will win the contest, presumably eat the most pork pie. You and Dave are both lying OOm. So much for honesty.
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
14 Oct 2014, 00:30
#25
14 Oct 2014, 00:30#25
Saffex if you went into a sports betting company like ladbrokes.com or Paddy Power and put your money on Wales and the world XV winning against the Boks---you would have lost all your money. 
If you challenged this in court you would lose, and could also end up having to pay the defendants court fees.  Your argument is that you did not predict, instead you would just put your money on the Boks losing would not stand up in court. 
That is what betting is: the action of gambling money on the outcome of a race, game, or other "unpredictable" event.
(Betting is predicting ) You predicted the Boks would lose

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Oct 2014, 06:25
#26
14 Oct 2014, 06:25#26
 The problem here is of wording of the whole issue.   Dave nevr really used the word prediction - because he said that he willput his money on Wales in winning the test is strictly in legal terms not making a prediction.   
Mozart seize on the issue of laying a bet on Wales as a "prediction"  and used that word erroneously to get at Dave.   If he used the words Dave used in the posting - that would have been accurate and not open to another interpretation.   
This started off as a legal issue thread and if the issue raised by Mozart is dealt with in legal terms - Dave would not have a case to answer, because of the difference between laying a bet and making a prediction would not be equated as the same thing in a court of law.   
Shakrbok - you are wrobg -  betting is different from preditcing.  In lay terms it may be - but in legal terms it won't be.   Just go and see the explanation given in the Oxford dictionary and youwill find a different explanation for the terms gambling and prediction in theire and you will end up as losing the case before it started.     
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Oct 2014, 06:25
#27
14 Oct 2014, 06:25#27
 The problem here is of wording of the whole issue.   Dave nevr really used the word prediction - because he said that he willput his money on Wales in winning the test is strictly in legal terms not making a prediction.   
Mozart seize on the issue of laying a bet on Wales as a "prediction"  and used that word erroneously to get at Dave.   If he used the words Dave used in the posting - that would have been accurate and not open to another interpretation.   
This started off as a legal issue thread and if the issue raised by Mozart is dealt with in legal terms - Dave would not have a case to answer, because of the difference between laying a bet and making a prediction would not be equated as the same thing in a court of law.   
Shakrbok - you are wrobg -  betting is different from preditcing.  In lay terms it may be - but in legal terms it won't be.   Just go and see the explanation given in the Oxford dictionary and youwill find a different explanation for the terms gambling and prediction in theire and you will end up as losing the case before it started.     
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
14 Oct 2014, 07:02
#28
14 Oct 2014, 07:02#28
clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 13433RE: A Question of Lawyers - you get the honest ones - like Dave and then you get this
October 14, 2014, 06:25:01

Shakrbok - you are wrobg -  betting is different from preditcing.  In lay terms it may be - but in legal terms it won't be.   Just go and see the explanation given in the Oxford dictionary and youwill find a different explanation for the terms gambling and prediction in theire and you will end up as losing the case before it started.    


You ask me to check the Oxford dictionary. Perhaps you should check the Oxford dictionary first before telling other people to do this?http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/betting

what's the betting?Used to express a belief that something is likely:what’s the betting he’s up to no good?

Phrases

the betting isIt is likely1The action of gambling money on the outcome of a race, game, or other unpredictable event:

Like Saffex you also predicted losses for the Boks most of this year, but like Saffex you were also wrong. You can call it bet that the Boks would lose, or predict the Boks would lose. Same thing, check the Oxford dictionary. 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Oct 2014, 08:39
#29
14 Oct 2014, 08:39#29
 Moffie the only liar here is you. Provide evidence of my predictions and all will be forgiven you lying prick.
Mike is spot on, you are obviously too thick to work out the obvious.
Provide the evidence old timer or shut up
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Oct 2014, 09:07
#30
14 Oct 2014, 09:07#30
 Sharkbok
I have never denied that I predicted a win by Wales.   You quote from the Oxford dictionary - but do not get it yet, now do you?   You bet on an unpredictable issue - but that does not mean you make a prediction.  It means that you take a gamble that Wales might win and is normally influenced by the odds offered by the Bookies.   Why do poeple often bet against favourites winning?   Because they think that an upset may be possible and then you can win big money.   It is NOT a prediction - it is a gamble.
The lawayers will tear you too pieces on that one.  I would rather both you, Ceradunce and Mozart used Dave's exact words and not made a deduction of your own in this regard.    That deduction weakens/destroys  your case.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Oct 2014, 09:18
#31
14 Oct 2014, 09:18#31
 Mozart
By making a deduction like you did and then claim I am lieing is being grossly dishonest on your part.  You are stupid not to realize that - you should submit an apology.  I said you are wrong in deducting that Saffex expression means that he made a prediction - there is no basis for such a d eduction - and said that you should have stuck with his exact words - in which case there would have been no dispute since he would not be able to make a denial.   
Please note I am taking nobody's side in this case - I am just pointing out that you made a deduction that is really seriously defective.  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
14 Oct 2014, 09:26
#32
14 Oct 2014, 09:26#32
 hahahhahahaha ou maaaikie and snapster making complete twits of themselves defending the indefensible.Fact is you were expecting the Boks to lose - and got it wrong yet again. Bwahahahahahhahaha hilarious - the pit gets deepe r. My advice to you two is to admit the error of your ways! 
Man this is a real slapstick comedy! 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Oct 2014, 10:07
#33
14 Oct 2014, 10:07#33
 Beeno
I am very polite here nowadays and in this case very precise from a legal perspective.   I do not deny and never did - that I expected a number of teams to beat us this year.   I made clear predictions - Dave did not.  He may have felt that the Boks would lose - and said so by saying he would lay a bet on Wales winning - but that is NOT a prediction - it is a gamble.   
I also admitted I was wrong - but that is besides the point.   What is happening here is that Mozart made a deduction frrom what Dave said and went on the rampage - that really is the comedy show.    Dave argiues he did not in fact made a prediction - the word used by Mozart - and he is legally 100% correct.  
I am the innocent one here - I made an error in my predictions and admitted it. - Mozart accuses me of lieing - which is grossly irregular and he should apologize.   By pointing out that he made a deduction and an erroneous one at that - does not make me a liar.  he lost it completely in this case.
  
 
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
14 Oct 2014, 10:35
#34
14 Oct 2014, 10:35#34
Just to get it straight, the "put money on" comment pertained to the World XV game, not Wales. There were other predictions for Wales.

Examining the whole original thread that features the World XV prediction:

---------------
Mozart starts a thread called:

Posters predicting a World Win seems to include....
June 05, 2014, 14:58:52
Clean Gene, Ou Maaik, Sapp....
-------------

Dave's first response in that thread is: 

Yep, the World side is better than the Bok side so my money would be on the World side. 

In other words, a positive response to the assertion in the thread title (that he was one of the people predicting a World win).
---------------

Followed a little later (in response to a post by Mike about the excuses Meyer will have after the loss) by Dave's next words:

Easy call really

-----------------

Spin it whichever way you want. Dave was absolutely convinced the World XV would win, agreeing with the thread title where he was pointed out as one of those predicting a World win, going as far as to say they are better than the Boks and that it was an easy call. By all means use semantics to try and weasel out of it, but Dave predicted a World XV win. All but one or two posters here long ago agreed on that.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Oct 2014, 10:42
#35
14 Oct 2014, 10:42#35
 Pakie
The argument here is not the World 15 game - itis the Welsh test.   The World 15 game was not a test and will not be recognized ever as one.   To bring that one in now is muddied the water - since it is no really pertinent in this case.       
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
14 Oct 2014, 10:48
#36
14 Oct 2014, 10:48#36
Mike, Dave's "put money on" comment pertains to the World XV game and not the Wales games. You can't continue the argument with erroneous information. Dave never said he'd put money on Wales, as is asserted in this thread. He said he'd put money on the World XV.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
14 Oct 2014, 11:03
#37
14 Oct 2014, 11:03#37
 Pakie
Thanks for that.   Mozart claimed it was in the Welsh test Dave said that  and I reacted to Mozart's claim in the relevant regard.   If - as you proved with your latest posting - Dave never said anything similar in the case of the Welsh test - than Mozart is totally wrong in saying that he did .   If h did repeat "put money on"  elsewhere, whic you may have missed - my contention is still the same.   Legally "putting money on" or "laying a bet" is not equivalent to making a prediction - it is gambling on the oucome.    


sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
14 Oct 2014, 11:12
#38
14 Oct 2014, 11:12#38
what a joke! You say to quote the Oxford dictionary and you do not even use the definition yourself. 
Total bull-shit, like your rugby predictions. To try defend the indefensible is lying. Now you have also become a legal expert as well. 

Yes or No?Did both you and Saffex "say" that the Boks were going to lose many tests this year? 
What ever you want to call it. Betting, predicting, Believing, stating, thinking, writing......
You both clearly did not say that the Boks were going to win so many tests. 
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,293 posts
14 Oct 2014, 11:12
#39
14 Oct 2014, 11:12#39
what a joke! 
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
14 Oct 2014, 11:30
#40
14 Oct 2014, 11:30#40

Sharktwat and Moffie feeling like a real bunch of idiots right now............poor ignorant fools

 

Bwhaaaahaaaaaaaaa

 

Case closed........would have been thrown out with costs......wasting the courts time  

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