In any case, mate. I hope you are correct and I am wrong. Honestly, I really do. Sadly though , I think that the odds are more leaning towards me being correct. We will just have to wait and see, I suppose.
A team of Vetsak's "bests"
In any case, mate. I hope you are correct and I am wrong. Honestly, I really do. Sadly though , I think that the odds are more leaning towards me being correct. We will just have to wait and see, I suppose.
Oh gosh I forgot, it's all the coaches fault.
The NH sides are better prepared than our lot...why is that....they play a U20 6Ns.
The only time the Baby Boks have disappointed was last year where the side lacked class.
Difference between our U20 players and England's is that ours go on to play S18 rugby and test rugby. Very few of the England U20 players make the step up....again perspective. Not to mention the quota that plays a big part in age group rugby
In the last 4 years we have made two finals winning it once and ended 3rd in the other two. Hardly a poor record...hence the great young talent we see at home right now.
England have very few class youngsters coming through right now. NZ will always have class youngsters coming through. This year's England U20 side is piss poor having lost to Scotland and Ireland so far.
We have talent to burn...imagine being a Bok coach and ignoring the talents of Senatla, Kolbe, Vorster, Faf, Kitshoff, Willemse, Jacques du Plessis and Jaco Kriel for a start...and conversely investing in the likes of Kirchner, Mvovo, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, du Preez, Jannie, Brits, Matfield, Louw and Alberts and expect us to come up trumps. All good players in their time bar Morne but all long past their prime.
The only older players that added value were JP, Habana, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Schalk and Vermeulen. For the rest our side under Meyer has been handicapped by washed up has beens.
We should have seen investment in the likes of Kolbe, de Allende, Faf, Kitshoff, Malherbe, Marcel, Willemse, Lood, Jacques du Plessis, Jaco Kriel etc two years ago with a view to this past WC. Meyer never got the balance right he was far too conservative and always leant towards the players he knew.
Classical loser think.
There can be no doubt that Meyer did nothing to prepare properly a squad for the 2015 WC. The selection of players were since his appointment as coach based not on looking at the ultimate squad needed in 2015, but in the selection of players based on his own norm - namely that as he said himself repeatedly on the basis of "he new what players were capable of". There was no way that those selfsame players did not show in 2014 and 2015 that they were still capable of - a very substantial percentage of those players did not continue with what they were capable of in the past and their performances became progressively worse.
In the end the WC squad consisted of a number of has-beens and too large a number of players with minimal experience in tests. Instead of assessing experience together with performance - Meyer excused the lack of performance by experienced players. It is a fact that out-of-form players cannot play themselves back into form in a WC tournament.
Meyer got himself unstuck in the past WC when his "most experienced team" who ever was fielded by the Springboks lost to the game against the Japanese. That game in particular showed how seriously poor the performance of most of the experienced Springboks in fact were. There were players in that squad that he did not dare to play since they would not guarantee a win in the other group matches. Many of the so-called experienced players were scarcely used after the Japanese fiasco. Meyer was forced to change the team and bring in players with minimal test experience and keep on playing them match after match with minimal xchanges in subsequent games.
Because the experienced players were incapable of playing a different style of rugby Meyer developed a game plan that the senor players were familiar with - but that was predictable and seriously defective. The fact that we somehow got through the Welsh test was a miracle - since the backline was virtually never used and ball after ball was passed back to the forwards. There was no variation and the opposition could counter that game plan with ease.
So to make a sweeping statement that coaching of the Springboks have nothing to do with the performance and to say that our younger players do not have the mojo is an absurdity.
We still have competent young players with mojo and fighting spirit. In rugby they were never used and developed properly. Your constant attacks on younger players and their capabilities in all codes of sport are notorious and not justified and often based on prejudice more than anything else. Some of our younger sportsmen have been considered as among the best in the Work - yet you demonized them consistently.
It is much better to look at players objectively and make objective assessments of their performances - than to constantly run down virtually all younger players consistently. You claim you have supported Etzebeth consistently - but in 2012 wen he came on the scene you were not convinced he was the right selection and after his first few tests you said he has proved nothing at all - but will have to prove he belongs. You claimed you support Pollard yet in another posting you said he was disappointing in the WC semi - with the rubbishy game plan used he got too few balls from the scrummy where he could show anything at all.
That is the problem I believe in your case. You are not objective in player performance assessment and in the case of the experienced players you like performance assessment is not necessary and in younger players such assessments are basically prejudicial.
My norm all along has been that experience must at all times be coupled to performance and that it is preferable to have experienced players to having a team of novices, provided that the performance of experienced players must be assessed on the same basis as the required performance iro of younger players. That is where Meyer went wrong and ultimately had to fall on his own sword. He paid no attention to performance requirements iro of experienced players. However, there is a contra situation as well - not all younger players will ultimately succeed in their playing careers - but to blame them as failures with less than 10 tests played is ridiculous.
Sorry to differ from you in this case - and I do so with respect - so lets see what happens to players this year and going forwards and put out of our minds what happened in the past - especially when i t has no bearing on the way forward.
We live in hope.
So HM with a starting team including 12 players the ABs would never have selected, was within a penalty of beating the ABs and the morons on this Board see that as failure. Dumb is forever.
With respect you are wrong here. Craft a game plan and only use that crafted game plan without any variations whatsoever is suicidal - since in that case it was apparent and counter-measures taken effective.
You only blame De Jager for a missed tackle - but that same game plan allowed for Burger to lose ball possession as well leading to a second try for the AB's - fact is you have kept totally quiet about that flop - even though Burger apologized for that deficiency in public.
Playing that game plan without any variation effectively was a doomsday situation and a serious deficiency in itself. In the test in July it was the Springbok backline players that had a major impact in the game (2 tries scored - one by Le Roux and one by Kriel) - in the case of the semi - the backline involvement was destroyed. There is no way that destruction of the backline like that by the Meyer game plan could be justified.
All this, and we lost by 2 just points......
And wait for it......... it is and always was all Meyer's fault
That mentality is laughable.............
Who selected them to play against the All Blacks?
Was it perhaps ... Meyer?
Try to use a little more head next time, Dumb Ass!!
With respect the game plan decided by Meyer was a recipe not to win the game. If Meyer did not decide on the plan than it was Du Preez who f#cked up badly in doing what he did. Be it as it may - teams that score tries are the winning ones. Who cannot will be 90% of the time the losers.
So have your own view - mine remains that -
* the squad was poorly selected and prepared and after the Japan fiasco Meyer had to use the same players without a break constantly to prevent another disaster causing them to work themselves to a standstill - other teams gave their players a break - Meyer did not ;
* the game plan was rubbish in capital letters since it was absolutely predictable and the AB's was able to kill ball carries; and
* since we did not score tries because of the game plan it meant we were at a serious disadvantage that the team was unable to be overcome. .
Great logic there CC
He anticipated all those incidents that those individuals made.....
With all his experience as a coach, he should have known that Habana was going to intentionally make a mistake like that
Or...... that Lood was going to make a primary school error and miss a crucial tackle which led to the try.....
If you really judge a coach on all the errors that even seasoned players make on the pitch, then you are dumber than I thought
In hindsight, he could have picked any other four players in those same positions and we could have lost by 15 - 20 points...... or we could have won by 10.
Hindsight is a real b!tch,
But........ obviously in your perfect world everything works according to the plan you or any coach makes
What a twat you are
Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 21670RE: A team of Vetsak's "bests"
March 04, 2016, 09:40:01
DA
With respect the game plan decided by Meyer was a recipe not to win the game. If Meyer did not decide on the plan than it was Du Preez who f#cked up badly in doing what he did. Be it as it may - teams that score tries are the winning ones. Who cannot will be 90% of the time the losers.
So have your own view - mine remains that -
* the squad was poorly selected and prepared and after the Japan fiasco Meyer had to use the same players without a break constantly to prevent another disaster causing them to work themselves to a standstill - other teams gave their players a break - Meyer did not;
* the game plan was rubbish in capital letters since it was absolutely predictable and the AB's was able to kill ball carries; and
* since we did not score tries because of the game plan it meant we were at a serious disadvantage that the team was unable to be overcome. .
Mike, you said we would not even make the knockouts, you gave us absolutely no chance, and we missed on that final by 2 points due to some stupid errors from seasoned players
Sorry, i do not buy into that at all
You may not buy into the situation - but most other supporters do and so did most people at SARU and other commentators - resulting in Meyer falling on his own sword.
Just imagine we made that final and won the world cup
Would you then have sung Meyer's praises or still thrown him to the wolves like most
If De Jager hadn't missed that tackle, everyone on here that is slating Meyer would be forced to sing another tune entirely
As I have already said.... Hindsight is a real b!tch
To blame Meyer is just being stupid.
If we were completely outplayed by every team and exited before the playoffs as some predicted on here, I would join the chorus to blame Meyer
The fact is..... we just barely lost the semi due to some mediocre plays and school boy errors, made by some of the most senior Springbok players, and ended up losing by 2 points to what is being called "The best All black team to ever take the field"
Yeah.... that's all Meyers fault
Bollocks
Moz that is where you are wrong, far more of our youngsters have stepped up and played CC and s15/18 rugby along with the odd test cap, compared to the England players who played u20 rugby. NZ and Oz are probably on par with the Baby Boks in terms of transition. There is an obvious reason for this up North in that their domestic game is polluted by foreign imports depriving the English youngsters of opportunity. Our current s18 sides are dominated by youngsters which is a healthy sign and thankfully we have had a change in guard when it comes to s18 coaches, which will hopefully reap some rewards.
Sadly our national coach failed to mirror the trend of our CC and s15 sides but instead chose to select players long past their best, players he was familiar with and was far too conservative to embrace the new. The only time he did was late into the WC, when it was too late. The step to invest in the best players should have been taken 2 years prior to the WC, with a view to the team building as a unit. Look at the Kiwi side, it was of a similar age to ours, not many youngsters on board, but that was because it had taken years to get there.
Meyer at the start of his tenure should have used the current Eddie Jones model……Eddie’s England side is dominated by youngsters, something Lancaster like Meyer never did. In the current England squad, we only have Brown and Haskell aged 30.
Meyer’s original plan for the WC was clearly to have the likes of Kirchner, Habana, JP, Mvovo, Fourie, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, du Preez, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Brits, Jannie, Matfield, Louw, Schalk and Alberts on board……hell had it not been for Bakkies, Flip and Juan Smith making themselves unavailable, they to might have featured……not to mention all the game time Guthro Steenkamp was afforded……and people wonder why Meyer was a hopeless failure. 18 of the WC squad of 31 were in their late 20's or into their 30’s, which is not an issue if they were the best at our disposal as was the case with the Kiwi side.
We only had 6 youngsters in the WC starting side, the very same youngsters who happened to be the best players in that side. While Willie did not have a great WC, there is no doubting his credentials. Lood and Etzebeth were our best forwards and Pollard stood tall in the backs. de Allende beat more defenders than any other player in the WC, with Jessie Kriel making more clean breaks than any other centre in the WC. You can’t ignore these facts. Rugby is a team game, its about the unit as a whole, not the individual. Sadly the Bok side for some time has been handicapped by players not being the best in their respective positions, thereby discrediting the side as a unit. Meyer sold us short in a big way…….the fact that the likes of Kolbe, Senatla, Frans Venter, Faf, Kitshoff, Willemse, Jacques du Plessis and Jaco Kriel etc have not played for SA yet is insulting. There has been no faith shown in the youngsters – the likes of Serfontein, de Allende, Jessie Kriel, Lambie, Goosen, Jantjies, Hougaard, Reinach, Marcel, Coenie, Malherbe, Lood, PSDT, Coetzee, Kolisi and Arno Botha have only had tastes of test rugby……..Meyer being the conservative type was never comfortable investing in the unknown. Hell, Willie was forced on him through injury……de Allende and Jessie Kriel through injury to Jean and Fourie pulling the plug. Lood for Matfield. The only youngster he has shown faith in is Etzebeth wholeheartedly and Pollard to a lesser extent. Etzebeth is a great player but he is not better than Lood, Willemse and PSDT and if he is, its very, very marginal. My point being that we have 4 young locks of great quality with only one of them invested in. The same applies in all positions bar fullback.
Eddie Jones has it spot on…..start with a young side made up of the best players in England and build a side……look at his start with England to date…….how good will his side be by next WC? The mark of a quality coach who knows his business and is not handicapped by conservatism. We see the same with the Oz side right now, its made up of kids. No doubt with the changing of the guard in NZ rugby in terms of old players moving on, my guess is we will see an influx of younsgsters into the Kiwi side this year.
Meyer got it wrong from the start, his instincts were out of tune, his vision flawed. His instinct was to trust the old, pressure forced him into investing is some of the new, but by then it was too late for the new look Bok side against Wales and NZ in the WC had never had the opportunity to gel as a unit and was of course handicapped by the odd player who was not the best at his trade. But we beat Wales and lost by 2 against NZ…….imagine if that same side with a few additional tweaks had, had 2 years together prior to that NZ game in the WC?
We have better youngsters on board right now than we have ever had……evidenced by my six S18 sides I had a play around with. If a national coach can’t find 30 of the best from that group along with the experience of JP, Habana, Frans Steyn, du Preez, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Schalk and Vermeulen then he is clearly not a Eddie Jones, Hansen, Gatland, Schmidt or Cheika
Having said that it is pretty impressive considering the old team, conservative game plan and that almost no one gave a a chance of getting out the pool that we lost out to the 'best ever' AB team by 2. A loss based on a very poor second half construction.
Lets just hope that we don't get stuck with Coetzee.
Yeah BokBF, what really saddens me is the prospect of Coetzee as the Bok coach. He has achieved absolutely nothing to merit elevation to test status.
We have more talent than ever - to be supressed once again by a substandard coach
T he joke is, Lood's miss was at the start of the game.......what about the Matfield penalty reversal in front of the poles with 15 min to go
But ultimately its a team sport, blaming individuals is counter productive and inaccurate.
We came close with an almost merit side guided by a coach out of his depth.
Imagine what a merit side and merit coach would do?
Without realizing that SARU is seriously faction ridden Meyer thought that the support of Hoskins and the politico's would enable him to keep on coaching the Springboks - after all the politico's do not really care what happen to rugby in SA. When it came out that the rugby -orientated members would not accept his continuation - he resigned before he would be fired.
It is funny how Mozart, Ceradunce and some other members keep on fighting against some younger players and protecting the useless players like Matfield, Steyn and Alberts, while preaching how their departure would have dire consequences for SA rugby. They have convinced themselves that the absence of their heroes would be detrimental - not realizing that their heroes should never have been in the WC squad. One can only accept that they are deluding themselves, while trying to find a way out of the mountain of egg that they caused for themselves by supporting duds.
Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 21678RE: A team of Vetsak's "bests"
March 04, 2016, 14:11:35
By the way DA - like Mozart you also say nothing about the possession loss by Burger leading to the AB's second try. Please paint the whole picture not a warped one.
MichaelCheck the time of your post above
Now check the time of my post below
5 whole hours before you made this stupid accusation towards me at 14:11:35pm, I posted exactly what you have referenced that I didn't
The only warped issue I can see here is either your eyesight or mentality
Care to elaborate on that statement again.........
Devil's Advocate
Status: Bok regular
Posts: 1164RE: A team of Vetsak's "bests"
March 04, 2016, 09:00:36
Very easy missed tackle by De Jager - Try
Horrible chase down by Habana - Second attempt at kick which he gotPenalty at the death because of Matfield - PenaltySchalk losing possession - No ball at a crucial part of the gameAll this, and we lost by 2 just points......
And wait for it......... it is and always was all Meyer's fault
That mentality is laughable.............
But you guys will get your young team this year....no JdV, no Morne, no Jannie, no Victor. Let's see how they do.
The only thing I know for sure, if they flop, it will be the coach's fault.
I can't recall you ever saying Jannie, JdV, de Jongh, Matfield, Morne, Burger, Alberts, F du Preez or Louw had a good game.....ever. You are a totally biased fellow and frankly a poor observer of what happens on the rugby field.
You never once called a decent game by De Jager. However, to come back to the issue - you attack Dave about players he punted in the past, and in most cases I agree with you - there really was some duds in that list.
I pointed out that you criticized some players for virtually no proven reason at all and that the situation should not be limited to only failures of new players, but tht one has to look at all recent failures by players. In that context I referred specifically to players like Matfield, Alberts and Morne Steyn. All three of the players and others punted by you have been selected and have failed badly - a fact that you really refuse to recognize,
The fact is that I observe too much of what happened on a rugby field and as a result I am perhaps over-critical of players and teams. I definitely do not create mirages of player performances and keep to reality - while others create images of what really did not happen on the field of play. I would not call that being a poor observer. However, i am always trying to be fair and provide motivation for my observations and in that do not blame individual players for losses of games when others are equally or even more so responsible for such losses. .
Apologize Tokkie, this was posted July 25 2015.


