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Another opinion on Joubert call; the Roar

Started by Just_win24 REPLIES786 VIEWS· 20 Oct 2015, 18:08
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Oct 2015, 18:08
#1
20 Oct 2015, 18:08#1
Link to article
The official statement could have supported the ref more & not bowed to initial public emotional reactions.--------article now copied below------------------

Why would you ever become a referee? A team gives away 10 penalties and nobody bats an eyelid, but you give away one and everyone loses their minds! Players yell at you. Coaches roast you post match. Fans abuse you to the point where it has crossed from verbal to physical in some cases.

The only solace that you have is that your employers know the difficulty of your position and will back any decision you make to the hilt, always arguing the effects of perspective, feel for the game, and grey areas in the rule book to stem the torrent of criticism levelled at you.

It is incredible therefore to see the World Rugby match official selection committee come out and state, in no uncertain terms, that:

“On review of all available angles, it is clear that after the knock-on, the ball was touched by Australia’s Nick Phipps and Law 11.3(c) states that a player can be put on-side by an opponent who intentionally plays the ball.

“The appropriate decision, therefore, should have been a scrum to Australia for the original knock-on.”

This undermining of a leading referee in a public statement is as big a kick in the teeth as Shane Smeltz gave Mark Birighitti in the A-League last week. Last time we saw treachery of this kind the victim had a crouton-laden salad named after him.

The thing that really gets to me is that I, the humble punter with an unprecedented sense of self-importance, believe that the committee have actually got it wrong.

Let’s dive into the rule book, shall we?

Law 11 – Offside

In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a teammate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a teammate who last played the ball.

Offside means that a player is temporarily out of the game. Such players are liable to be penalised if they take part in the game.

In general play, a player can be put onside either by an action of ateammate or by an action of an opponent. However, the offside player cannot be put onside if the offside player interferes with play; or moves forward, towards the ball, or fails to move 10 metres away from the place where the ball lands.

From the first sentence we know that at the point where John Hardie knocks the ball on, the reserve prop who eventually catches the ball was offside.

Let’s focus on the last statement though. To paraphrase a general statement to read specifically to this situation; a player can be put onside by an action of an opponent. However the offside player cannot be put onside if the offside player interferes with the play or moves towards the ball.

Curious. Reading further:

11.1 Offside in general play

(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:
• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).

This is reinforcing the major points from section 11, while highlighting the fact that a player who interferes with the play (by catching a loose ball perhaps) is liable to be sanctioned (penalised in this instance).

“But Nick Phipps played at the ball!” I hear you shout. Let’s look at why this is of relevance:

11.3 Being put onside by opponents

In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.
(a) Runs five metres with ball.
When an opponent carrying the ball runs five metres, the offside player is put onside.
(b) Kicks or passes.
When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.
(c) Intentionally touches ball.
When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.

This is the clause which the committee has chosen to focus on. They have stated that by playing at the ball, Phipps has put the opposing player onside.

I have two problems with this. Firstly, as mentioned above, a player cannot be put onside if the offside player moves towards the ball. Yes, Phipps is making a play at the ball, but guess who else is? Our lovely little offside friend, the Scottish number 18.

Secondly, this clause refers directly to being offside in general play, as outlined in Section 11.1. But wouldn’t this situation more closely resemble the following?

11.7 Offside after a knock-on

When a player knocks-on and an offsideteammate next plays the ball, the offside player is liable to sanction if playing the ball prevented an opponent from gaining an advantage.

There isn’t much of a point to be made here, apart from the fact that perhaps section 11.3(c) doesn’t necessarily apply to this situation at all, seeing as the rule book specifically separates “offside in general play” from “offside after a knock-on”.

This is only a side note, and not essential to prove my original thesis.

I only have one more section of the rule book discuss, and it is the one that puts the Scottish forwards in an awkward position by being in front of the ball. At the point where Hardie touches the ball, the Scottish lineout forwards must retreat behind Hardie. Unfortunately, this direction of travel leads them to be moving towards the ball, meaning they cannot be put onside by the actions of the opposition under the terms of section 11.

This leaves me with one small hole to fill, the possibility that the Scottish player is standing still until the point Phipps touches the ball, then he reacts from an onside position to claim the loose ball.

If he has made no attempt to move onside he is determined to be:

11.9 Loitering

A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.

CSI-mode activated. Zoom. Enhance. What do we have?

The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.

And so the referee did.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Oct 2015, 18:46
#2
20 Oct 2015, 18:46#2
 This article really reviews the law.
AJ
Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
20 Oct 2015, 19:49
#3
20 Oct 2015, 19:49#3
 Well all the experts/pundits and the guy in charge of the WC refs all agree without exception that Joubert screwed up.
In the slow mo that I watched on TV it is clear that an Aussie player handled the ball.
Also it is obvious that Moore and another Aussie player both appealed to Joubert instantly once the Scottish player caught the ball.........placing Joubert under pressure for an off side penalty.
Tactics paid off for the Aussies I guess.
I for one do not think that Joubert will ever overcome this error and will be damaged both mentally and professionally permanently.
Pity but at this level in any sport with so much at stake mistakes cannot and should not be tolerated.
Amen.
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
20 Oct 2015, 20:05
#4
20 Oct 2015, 20:05#4
I agree Arthur, but then there should be comprehensive rules in place that could enable the ref to refer anything he needs to, to effect a fair decision
It is not very often that cricket uses Hawkeye, Snicko, Slow Mo Zoom for catches etc etc, how much time could it really affect a rugby game when the ref only refers calls he is not convinced about
I'm quite sure the audience and those present at the game would accommodate a few more minutes per game, if it ensured more fair results 
And no, i do not think it would drastically affect the flow of the game
CA
carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
20 Oct 2015, 20:08
#5
20 Oct 2015, 20:08#5
jouberts calls was wrong but he cant refer the call as the rules dont allow for it....so the system is to blame....they really need to allow the tmo more powers...
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
20 Oct 2015, 20:31
#6
20 Oct 2015, 20:31#6
 what World Rugby has made is repugnant. They threw one of their employees to the beasts when they are the max culprits. As you said, JW, they should have supported him but instead they pointed him.

What Joubert did was just apply the rules. It's not clear if there was a penalty or not (according to WR there was but this article with the book of rules in hand says the opposite) but what is more than clear is that the controversial play happened in tenths of second, that many players were involved and that it was extremely dificult to know what happened live. Add to this that according to the protocols Joubert couldn't refer it to the TMO for being just a penalty.
In these conditions a human mistake is more than understandable.

What have failed are the WR proyocols. To begin with, it's not very clear which they are. The only thing they said was that no mistake in this sense was going to be made, that the TMOs were able to interrupt the game whenever they consider. But later, when too many interruptions were being made in each match, they reversed and say that the TMOs weren't going to interrupt the games but speak to the ref through earphones.
At last it wasn't clear what the protocol was and this is what failed. The TMO should have comunicated to Joubert that something could be wrong and a review could be worthy but he didn't.

The World Rugby should have assumed the responsability, investigate what failed in their protocols and propose a way for not repeating the failure. Instead they threw Joubert to the lions.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Oct 2015, 21:43
#7
20 Oct 2015, 21:43#7
 We will see how this story evolves & if Joubert survives it professionally. Who knows how he will react  personally, he enjoys being a ref but if he feels he was thrown to the wolves he may quit. 
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Oct 2015, 21:45
#8
20 Oct 2015, 21:45#8
 It has become typical of WR to make statements about certain calls that went the wrong way...in controversial test matches. Even apologies were made...to the Allblacks...and some others I suppose. I don't recall anything as such about Brycy in this regard. What they said about this particular incident...from what I've read, is that it was the wrong call, but the right one not to involve the TMO. What they did not say was that it was the best call that CJ possibly could have made with the tools at his disposal. The ref does not have a super slowmo inside his head. The ref does not make the laws. The ref applies the laws as he see's them. If they do a proper review of all the decisions made during the RWC, I'm sure lots of other errors that resulted in points can be added. Becs is quick to call Craig a coward, but the real cowards are the fat cats overseeing how the laws are applied. These people are making a farce of the game we all love. It is time for the fans to stand up to this BS and demand change.....FREEEEEDOMMMMM!!
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Oct 2015, 21:53
#9
20 Oct 2015, 21:53#9
 Jeez more granola thinking. WR are acting like committee men, what else is new. And now there is the very predictable Craig wuz set up junk.
Joubert is a very political ref who always seems to have an agenda. He missed knock ons and very late hits in that game....but only to Scotland's disadvantage. He went for an unnecessary yellow to Scotland's disadvantage. And then on the biggest call in Scottish rugby history, he never even bothered to consult with his touchie, let alone having the guts to bend the rules and ask the TMO .
He deserves everything that's coming his way. And I don't care if he had to wear a plastic water bottle or piss in his pants...you don't scurry off the field like that.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Oct 2015, 22:03
#10
20 Oct 2015, 22:03#10
 Moz, I'm on record as a Joubert "hater", but there is no way you can pin this BS on him. WR took the easy way out by shifting the blame to him. They make the laws. They regulate the application,  they supply the tools, but if things go tits up within the parameters the pass the buck. There is no way defending this. The blame is square on them. You can spin it all you like, but there is no court of law anywhere in the world that would "convict" Craig for this ballsup. He did his job. WR falls short on this and many other issues.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Oct 2015, 22:09
#11
20 Oct 2015, 22:09#11
 I agree WR has a hand in this. They made their rules too narrow and two definitive on TMO use.  And throwing Joubert out there to dry is cowardly.

But everything I said about Joubert stands. As the so called best ref in the world he has some leeway to get the call right. And whether you believe he should have done more, or not.....the simple fact is, he got the call wrong. And he did it all by himself, without even consulting the linesman.

As I said on another thread....even as weak a statement from a linesman as "an aussie may have touched the ball" would have negated the penalty.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Oct 2015, 22:25
#13
20 Oct 2015, 22:25#13
 I can agree with that, but Glen Jackson wasn't saying anything. Neither did the TMO...normally having their say without being asked. I'm sad for Scotland that it was thd wrong call, but glad for rugby. Hopefully the fallout will force them to review things. Now stop blaming the doos please and get on programme blaming WR!
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Oct 2015, 22:28
#14
20 Oct 2015, 22:28#14
 Mozart, I agree he could have consulted the assistant refs, they also could have also said something to him. The ref and the assistants are always talking to each other. There was time because the kick takes time. This part of the ref "system" didn't work. 
Hopefully something good will come out of this, we will see.
PS look at the laws, I copied them into this thread above. We get some insight into how complicated they are & decisions have to be made in a split second (and no legal use of the TMO is allowed). Who would want this job?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Oct 2015, 22:38
#15
20 Oct 2015, 22:38#15
Okay Draad those WR buggers are a bunch of wankers. 
JW the rules are too complicated, refs are too involved.....who the hell said they should coach players to avoid giving the other team a penalty.

The one sport that has got this TMO thing right is tennis. You get so many  challenges a set. How easy if Scotland had a challenge a half to the TMO. Hold on though, they would probably have spent it on the silly yellow!
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 Oct 2015, 23:01
#16
20 Oct 2015, 23:01#16
 Agreed Moz. Something has got to be done to make the laws more black and white. Same for the siting system. Too much controversy.  Refs can't change it.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Oct 2015, 23:18
#17
20 Oct 2015, 23:18#17
What about this bloke, will he get a recall?

He was fine until he started combing his hair during the games
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
20 Oct 2015, 23:24
#18
20 Oct 2015, 23:24#18
 A good man gets screwed over so all the armchair experts can have a satisfied "told you so "He would have been hammered by the Aussies if he had gone to the TMO [ illegaly] and reversed his decision .
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
20 Oct 2015, 23:25
#19
20 Oct 2015, 23:25#19
 If cap tains had at least one review this may not have happened ,supposing they hadnt already used it .
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
21 Oct 2015, 06:35
#20
21 Oct 2015, 06:35#20
 Tide may be turning
There are more artifices like this appearing now.
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
21 Oct 2015, 07:35
#21
21 Oct 2015, 07:35#21
 Maitland played at the ball preventing a possible try and the Scottish forward was clearly offside. Well called Mr Joubert Sir.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
21 Oct 2015, 08:12
#22
21 Oct 2015, 08:12#22
 The TMO protocols made it improper to refer the call  - a stupid policy.The mistake was understandable. The yellow card for a deliberate knock down was unfortunate but correct.
I am a bit uncomfortable about the fact that yet again these to down under sides get the rub of the green. It happens far, far to often. Oz beat England by walking the scrum as beeno and Mitchell on TV explained.
Not ebough is being of the role played by Glen jackson of New Zealnd of course. It was inevitable he would not see anyting or report anything and thereby help out Oz. Had a decent linesman been there the whole outcome could ahve been different. Rule is exlude all kiwi and Oz refs as they just cant play it straight.
Excellent summary of events b y Beeno. Kbbs no bleatings please!
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
21 Oct 2015, 08:14
#23
21 Oct 2015, 08:14#23
 Anything that helps ensure a correct decision must be welcomed given the current state of affairs engineered by down under refs.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
21 Oct 2015, 08:40
#24
21 Oct 2015, 08:40#24
 Err, Beeno, Craig is a South African so your statement:
"Rule is exlude all kiwi and Oz refs as they just cant play it straight".

Is not logical. Anyway, Joubert is good ref. Incidentally Glen Jackson is a kiwi so I don't know why he would help non-kiwi teams. 
CL
ClaydogClub Pro691 posts
21 Oct 2015, 08:47
#25
21 Oct 2015, 08:47#25
 The worst thing that came out of the call was it robbed us of a certain try from the scrum. Instead we had to settle from a win from a penalty. Life goes on.
— END OF THREAD —

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