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Dr Brendon Venter and Beeno on the same page

Started by Beeno112 REPLIES254 VIEWS· 05 Jun 2015, 22:57
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
05 Jun 2015, 22:57
#1
05 Jun 2015, 22:57#1

Its amazing how often the top rugby brains arrive at the same conclusions as that rugby sage Beeno!!


You will recall how I said the Stormer's forwards were covering the puny Stormers backline. I also said the Stormers backline didnt shape against the better backlines in the comp.

Venter wrote this interesting piece re contrasting styles for Supersport:


At the start of the season, few would have predicted that the Stomers’ showdown with the Lions in the first week of June would prove a top-of-the-table, South African conference-deciding encounter.

While the Stormers are on the cusp of securing their third conference title since the format came into effect in 2011, the Lions are unquestionably the season’s surprise package. Overnight, Johan Ackermann’s men have replaced the Cheetahs as everyone’s second favourite team in South Africa.

On Saturday in Cape Town, two sides with vastly contrasting styles of play will collide. The match-up is a mouth-watering prospect, as the Stormers and Lions are on opposite ends of the spectrum. It would not be overly simplistic to state that it will be the Stormers’ defence against the Lions’ attack.

The Stormers have waxed lyrical of late in terms of embracing a more expansive game. However, to be blunt, they just move the ball to the end of the field without any penetration. The fact of the matter is that the Cape-based side have scored the second-least number of tries this season – 26. Only the bottom-placed Western Force have scored fewer five-pointers over the current campaign. (Some food for thought for the errant Dr Mozzzz who has failed to grasp the situation)


A water-tight defence coupled with set-piece supremacy and a flyhalf in Demetri Catrakilis who kicks beautifully and is a Deadeye Dick in front of goal, has put the Stormers into this favourable position.

The Lions, on the other hand, definitely employ an expansive style and have prospered this season by throwing the ball around and playing the game at a high-tempo. Former coaches John Mitchell and Carlos Spencer had an amazing effect on the Lions’ attack-minded approach and that legacy lives on.

CATRAKILIS VERSUS JANTJIES – AN INTRIGUING SUBPLOT

In Elton Jantjies they boast a flyhalf, unlike Catrakilis, who takes the ball to the line and asks questions of the defence. Jantjies is unequivocally the form flyhalf in South Africa, at present, and comes up with moments of magic. By very definition Jantjies is unpredictable. In contrast, Catrakilis could be typecast as a boring number ten but if boring wins big games, which one would you prefer?

The Lions have enjoyed a brilliant season but a lot of their success has been built around them running the opposition off their feet. I admire Ackermann and his assistant Swys de Bruin for wanting to play a better brand of rugby but I have my doubts as to whether that game model alone can win Super Rugby.

If the Lions are able to execute their attacking strategy against the Stormers’ defence and ultimately prevail, then it will be a magnificent achievement for the men from Emirates Airline Park.

The Stormers defend by loading the frontline with numbers. They boast limited line speed but don’t contest the breakdown very hard. As a direct consequence, they have a lot of players on their feet.

As the Stormers’ line speed is slow, and they don’t commit many numbers to the breakdown, they seldom fall out of line, so an offloading and angled-running game doesn’t really work against them. 

The New Zealand-styled Lions love to offload in or before contact but because the Stormers have so many defenders on their feet, a concept instilled by former defence coach Jacques Nienaber, I maintain that they are the one team which the offloading game doesn’t generally work well against.

To draw an analogy, the Lions are the Bath of South African rugby. Bath were on fire during the season and played an attacking brand which was beautiful to behold. They summarily destroyed Leicester Tigers in the semifinal.

However, in the Aviva Premiership decider they came up against a Stormers-esque side in Saracens and their attacking threat was nullified owing to Saracens’ miserly defence and territory-based game.

In essence, the Lions/Bath generate field position owing to their attack, whereas the Stormers/Saracens generate field position owing to their tactical kicking game.

If you were to back a team from South Africa to win the competition, smart money would be on the Stormers rather than the Lions.

Owing to the Stormers’ style of play they are a lot less reliant on individual players to spark them into action and generate momentum during a match, because their game plan is more structured and revolves around set-piece dominance, kicking and a tight defence.

The Stormers are system-driven, whereas the Lions are more player-driven. The latter side, for arguments sake, will wait for Ruan Combrinck to make a line break, Warren Whiteley to fire or Jantjies to sidestep a defender. While it makes for riveting viewing, is it enough to win competitions?


Quite Frankly I will not be crying if the Lions win this one. They are showing South Africa that we can attack through the backs - as we always used to do. All credit to them.



JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
05 Jun 2015, 23:17
#2
05 Jun 2015, 23:17#2
We all know what page you are on Beeno 

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Jun 2015, 00:28
#3
06 Jun 2015, 00:28#3
 Brendon Venter can shut his trap about the Stormers. His "expansive" approach has relegated the Sharks from the higher side of the log to merely above the bottom feeders. I would rather win a math with a few tries, than score 5 tries and still lose. I am bias in my view of the Stormers, but IMO, they have played a more expansive game than in previous years. Their finishing has let them down on numerous occasions,  but they are still in the runnin gs. There are lots of room for improvement, but I'm a bit anoyed at the fact that most people does not give them credit for where they stand in the rankings ATM.  But, but, but....aarrrh!!! No one gave them the slightes chance of being contenders this year and now that they are, its not because they are a good team, but beacause of this or that. What they have achieved up till now was due to hard work, and a bit of luck. The Canes had more luck, but somehow no one seems to make a fuss about that. I say it again. The Highlanders is tbe team to beat and if competitions were decided by fairness,  they
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jun 2015, 02:21
#4
06 Jun 2015, 02:21#4
 Draad
I am not so sure that the Sharks played an "expansive game" this year at all - so with respect I differ from you in that case. The problems with the Sharks goes much deeper than that.   It goes to a situation of a malfunctioning Tight 5 and consequently also a malfunctioning backline.   The main reason why I say they have a malfunctional backline centers around the issue of penetrative attack and that is where a player like Francois Steyn presents a problem - he is not a real attacking player of note - so he cannot really penetrate defense and cannot create space for any player outside of him.  Outside of him they had JP Pietersen - whose pace deserted him this year - and then they had 3 rather innocuous outside backs, with Sithole being rather better than the other two.
In essence the above situation  does not really allow for the "expansive game" concept.   The problem on the other hand lies with the Stormers - whose game is not really suited to any real plan for attacking play.   They really thrive on turnover ball and opposition mistakes.  If those mistakes do not occur - thy struggle in attacking play.   The reason is that the only really effective player they have in attacking play is De Allende - for the rest none of their players with the exception of Van Wyk  show any real attacking ability.
In essence the Stormers have not changed much from 2012 - when the game plan centered around the goal kicking abilities of Peter Grant.  Grant was not as good a kicker of the ball out of hand as Catrakilis - but he had at times at least a better attacking of the gainline game.   They then had De Villiers at 12 - now thy have De Allende.  I think what made them stronger in 2012 is that they had Habana on the wing.  
My problem with a game  like they use is the fact that it has limited scope and is not suitable to win titles.   The fact of the matter is that any opposing  team limits the Stormers game by reducing their mistakes and showing better discipline.   This is quite possible and the main problem of the opposing teams is that it is very difficult for them not to give away penalties in scrum situations.
Be it as it may - the Lions may have an advantage on Saturday - inasmuch as that they have the second strongest scrumming team in the competition and by far the better loosies - in Kriel, tecklenburg and Whiteley - with a backline outside of Jantjjies with far better penetration than the Stormers.  
I have my doubts about  a victory by the Stormers today.  I do not say they are definitely to lose - but there really is a 50:50 chance that they will.   

                 
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
06 Jun 2015, 04:47
#5
06 Jun 2015, 04:47#5
 Is that the page one tears out for butt wipin" when some whackers not refilled the TP ?
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
06 Jun 2015, 11:27
#6
06 Jun 2015, 11:27#6
"he is not a real attacking player of note - so he cannot really penetrate defense and cannot create space for any player outside of him"

Michael, he ticks every box for a 12. He is a very good generator of momentum and creates enough space; in fact he is the only 12 in SA who has the capacity to do this at the moment. 
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Jun 2015, 11:37
#7
06 Jun 2015, 11:37#7
 Mike, Venter said at the start of the season they are working towards a more exciting game plan. They failed to implement that and the whole side lost form in the process. The Stormers said almost the same thing, but the Stormers manages to work around their weaknesses and they adapt their game to suit their strengths. Although they are essentially playing the same game as in previous years, their game is less boring. Yes, they haven't scored a lot of tries, but they have kept the ball in hand at times and their kicking looks much less aimless than in previous years. Their biggest problem is the lack of a really rounded 10. Coleman is better than Cat in the running game, but his kicking under pressure is too poor to risk for the extra bit more flair he brings to the backs. The Stormers are using the players that they have well and the only way for their attacking play to get better is a change at 10. I hope Jean Luc and Dup Preez will be up to it soon. An experienced 9 like Vermaak might also make a difference, but I still maintain that they are a much better side than they get credit for.
Go Stormers, tame those Lions today!!!!
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Jun 2015, 11:49
#8
06 Jun 2015, 11:49#8
 I see all the oaks are going off at a tangent and hijacking th e main point to be noted.Beeno correctly identified the role of the forards in asssiting the puny Stormers backline defend. Venter notes they commit few players to the breakdown.
My good friend JW's little picture fortunately has not displayed leving him with less egg on visog than usual Bwahahahahahahaha
Poor warped DUD  is showing himself to be a vulgar pleb of note.
I will be far happier about the Stormers when we have a coach who understands the fundamentals. For the immediate future I would Like to see Huw Jones at center and Van Wyk on the wing. Beef up the backline a bit and add pace and threat in Van Wyk.
We also need much more threat at half back where the relatively pedestrain Groom and Cat pose virtually no threat and allow opposing loosies to concenttrate their defensive efforts out wide. I have been noting this elementary point for years now and thankfully Mallet I think it was also brought it up recently re the Stormers.All elemenytary stuff not understood by Coetzee.
Jano Vermaaak will help out on this one but he will only be a short term solution as he is getting on. To think we let Pollard go!!!!
As fpr strength Allende os stronger than jean ever was and is exceptionally strong. I havent seen a SA center with his strength in many a year. Our most physical center in a long while. When considering the best centers in world rugby right now Allende would have to be a strong contender.






DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
06 Jun 2015, 11:57
#9
06 Jun 2015, 11:57#9
Beeno, DA makes very little head-way punching it up. The little Cheetahs back had him in a dump tackle, until de Jongh drove him forward from behind. He gets run over head-on whilst defending as well. What he is doing very well is destabilizing defenders by targeting their weak shoulder and being too close for them to go low. So they end up grabbing him high and he gets forward drive through that initial tackle. But head-on? No chance, he is weaker than Serfontein in that regard and well off the pace of Frans, Nonu, Roberts or even SBW. 
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Jun 2015, 12:43
#10
06 Jun 2015, 12:43#10
 He is effective and stays on his feet long enough to offload and he times his passes better than most of the others you have mentiond. It means jack if you are strong, but goes to ground as soon as you take contact.
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
06 Jun 2015, 12:47
#11
06 Jun 2015, 12:47#11
DA is an outside centre at the most, a wing thereafter. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Jun 2015, 13:53
#12
06 Jun 2015, 13:53#12
 Letsal
It is clear that you have no idea about center play and no idea about physical abilities of centers.   This story about De Allende lacking in carrying the ball in attacking the gain line as a center is the biggest load of rubbish anybody has ever written on this site.  
You write about a center with the highest number of broken tackles in Super 15 and one of the highest number of line breaks.  De Allende is rated by far as the best center in Super 15.   The fact that you rave about Steyn is the other part of the joke.   For the third year in Super 15 Steyn has done squat to prove that he is an effective 12.  All that you say he is has no substance - since there is virtually no evidence in practice that he did what you claim he did or is capable to do so.
By the way DE Allende is the only center whom it regularly took two to three tacklers to bring down in tackles and the fact is that he never gets tackled backwards.   The story about De Jongh "driving him forward from behind" is absolute crap as well.   De Jongh is physically too weak to do that.       
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Jun 2015, 19:15
#13
06 Jun 2015, 19:15#13
De Jongh driving him forward. Hahahahahahhahahaha - of course it could happen but to use this to argue Allende is not a strong center is not on Card!
— END OF THREAD —

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