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FORUM / RUGBY /  End homophobia in sports says Eales

End homophobia in sports says Eales

Started by Mozart72 REPLIES1,173 VIEWS· 15 May 2015, 17:59
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DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
19 May 2015, 16:05
#41
19 May 2015, 16:05#41
 Lolz Chip Ou! As a christian, I know that most churches label Homosxual practices as sinful, but also adultery and many other wrongs that are tolerated without get a mention. BTW, any man that marries a divorced woman while the first husband is still alive, is an adulterer. Jesus also challenged the crowd that came to stone a adulterous woman (probably a prostitute), by telling them that the ones without sin should cast the first stones. Now, being an adulterer by Bible definition, it disqualifies me to start casting proverbial stones at other supposed sinners, whatever their sin might be.
BTW, not being a genetic expert myself, but having read quite a bit AND as a father of 3 boys, it is clear that there is some kind of genetic memory passed along through generations that influences personality and emotional behavior. It therefore stand to reason that these things can also play a role in the sxsual orientation of people. It is just not exactly clear how. If not the genes, something else in the DNA.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
19 May 2015, 16:20
#42
19 May 2015, 16:20#42
Good post Db! 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 08:43
#43
20 May 2015, 08:43#43
". . . it is clear that there is some kind of genetic memory passed along through generations that influences personality and emotional behavior. It therefore stand to reason that these things can also play a role in the sxsual orientation of people."

Draad, how do gay men pass their . . . ummmm . . . "sexual orientation" on to the next generation?

You do know how reproduction works, don't you?
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
20 May 2015, 09:22
#44
20 May 2015, 09:22#44
Rooi, I am no genetics specialist, and don't pretend to be, but the combination of two genetic codes, mother and father, could have a "gay gene" result?  
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
20 May 2015, 09:30
#45
20 May 2015, 09:30#45
 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 09:33
#46
20 May 2015, 09:33#46
I think you're missing the point, Bluebok. How does someone pass on his gay genes to anyone if he's . . . ummm . . . putting it up the old bovril bullet-hole?
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
20 May 2015, 09:56
#47
20 May 2015, 09:56#47
hahaha, I get your point, but you are missing mine, the combination of a mother and a father could create the g a y mutation. 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 10:10
#48
20 May 2015, 10:10#48
Bluebok, are you saying that a "normal" (no offence to anyone but I hate the term "straight") mother and a "normal" father could pass on a gay gene because of some kind of mutation? Well, that's hardly hereditary in that case is it? I suppose any trait or characteristic can be passed on if there's a mutation of sorts.

Like you I'm no genetic expert but if you have a long line of ancestors who all had brown eyes for example and after 20 generations of passing on brown eyes suddenly there's some kind of mutation and a child is born with blue eyes, you wouldn't say that blue eyes are heriditary or genetic in that family would you?

Just so we're clear, there has been an argument put forward on this board at some point that homosexuality could be caused by genetics. I'm just curious to know how that is possible . . . and telling me there might be some one-in-a-million chance of a mutation that might change the "normal" gene to a "gay" gene doesn't prove anything except that genetic mutations can happen.

To simplify what I'm trying to say, if homosexuality is indeed genetic then there wouldn't be any homosexuals because the gene would never get passed on. Note also that I'm drawing a distinction between homosexual and bisexual . . . I can get my head around how bisexual genes can be passed on.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
20 May 2015, 10:51
#49
20 May 2015, 10:51#49
Rooi, the mutation of a "normal" gene is pretty much the basis of evolution, but I don't what to make this a new discussion. 
Anyway, maybe mutation is the wrong word to have used, but what I am basically saying is, a certain combination of genes COULD result in a genetic code that is predisposed to homos e x uality. That does not require either parent to be g a y. Just like two people of average intelligence having a child that is a genius.   
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 May 2015, 12:18
#50
20 May 2015, 12:18#50
 Rooi, I'm well aware how it works, but it's not only the father that passes on genetics. I also think genetics is only part of it. This whole thin g is way too complex for us to know the answers. It took researchers years and they still can't proof anything either way.Just as a side. Colour blindness is a male only condition, but the gene always comes from the mother. Only women carry the gene, but only men are affected by it.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 12:34
#51
20 May 2015, 12:34#51
"Rooi, I'm well aware how it works, but it's not only the father that passes on genetics."

Who's saying it's only the father? I know I used gay men as an example but I could just have easily have asked how gay women pass on their sexual orientation to the next generation.

Homosexual people don't reproduce so how are their homosexual genes passed on?

Bluebok is suggesting that heterosexual people pass on homosexual genes that have been mutated but I'm not buying into that theory given that genes generally replicate incredibly accurately and I'm skeptical that something like a one in a million error rate could sustain these mutated homosexual genes for thousands of millions of years.

I'm not judging gay people and I'm happy to keep my opinions about them to myself but I do question whether homosexuality can possibly be due to genetics. It just doesn't seem logical . . . because gay people don't reproduce . . . certainly not to the extent that they could sustain whatever percentage of the population is currently homosexual.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 May 2015, 13:51
#52
20 May 2015, 13:51#52
 Ok, if you see it as a mutation, then you might have a point. I see it as something in the DNA that affects the personality and given a few other factors like social programing, diet or what have you,  it can affect the sxl orientatsion of some people. My point is that it is not purely a choice thing. It's a combination of things. 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 14:03
#53
20 May 2015, 14:03#53
Draad, I'm still not sure you're getting the point I'm making because you're repeating the same thing over and over again.

Let's just say you're right, that there's a gene affecting sexual orientation, okay? Now, I can understand how heterosexual people can pass their heterosexual genes on to their offspring but the the thing I'm struggling to understand (that you are still not explaining) is how homosexual people pass on the homosexual genes. Homosexual people don't produce offspring so how is this homosexual gene (or this "something in the DNA" that you refer to) still around? How was it passed on and how has it survived for all these millions of years?

Please answer the specific questions and stop blathering on about some vague gene or DNA that causes behaviour. I have a reasonable idea of how genes work and what they do but I also know that gene's are transmitted from one generation to the next. Who is passing on this "gay gene" that you people are banging on about and how are they doing it?
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
20 May 2015, 14:21
#54
20 May 2015, 14:21#54

Two g a y men obviously can't have a baby together, so they get a surrogate mother, who would have alternate genes, but the g a y man's gene's are also present in the infant once it is born.

 

Two l e s b i a n women can't have a child, therefore they go the sperm donation route, and that donation would have alternate genes, including the possible "g a y" gene as sometimes it is described, combined with the l e s b i a n 's original genes.

 

Obviously both couples can't do it on their own, it's not possible, but offspring can still be generated through both parties being g a y.... simple

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 14:40
#55
20 May 2015, 14:40#55
My goodness, just how dumb is this Drivelling Avocado imbecile?

Driveller, what percentage of the world's population would you think might be gay? 5%? Less? Say 1%? Okay, let's work on that. Now what percentage of the world's population have gone through this whole surrogate/sperm-donation stuff that you're blathering on about? Huh chump? Do you think it's possibly as high as 0.00001%, huh?

Bearing that in mind, do you think your idiotic example above proves that homosexuality is genetic . . . or do you think it proves that 0.00001% of people could possibly be gay because of genetics?

Take your time and get someone with a double digit IQ to help you if you don't understand the question, stupidissimo!

Sheesh . . . the unbelievable stupidity I have to put up with . . .
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 May 2015, 14:41
#56
20 May 2015, 14:41#56
 Rooi, a family of 5 children share the same genes and pass it on to their children for a couple of generations. Within a few generations you have lots of people carrying on the gene that results in one g a y man out of every 20 carrying the gene. That man does not need to pass it along, because his brothers and sisters will. And even if a G man does have children, they are almost guaranteed not to be gay. It skips a few generations. I'm not talking about g a y people alone, there are a lot of genetic traits, positive and negative that skips generations. I thought everyone knew that. What might happen if g a y people procreate with modern science, is that it might become more frequent.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 14:48
#57
20 May 2015, 14:48#57
Draad, in your example you're talking about a gene that results in 1 person out of 20 being gay, right?

Well I'm saying that the chances of that 1/20 gene surviving millions of years is just non-existent. There is no such gene and it could not have possibly survived all these countless generations in competition with all the trillions of 0/20 genes. Not even remotely possible. You may as well try to convince me that the gene that results in every millionth person being born without reproductive organs is still with us.


BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
20 May 2015, 15:15
#58
20 May 2015, 15:15#58
Ok Rooi, I see what your argument is. A g a y gene would be an evolutionary weakness and would therefore have died out after numerous generations. That said, there are certainly many factors about DNA and genetics that are not understood, and to think otherwise would be irresponsible. 
I don't have the answer, but as I stated above, some people may, due to abuse or poor parental figures or whatever, land up g a y due to a "broken" personality, but some people ARE born gay. I can't tell you why that is, but it IS!  
I must reiterate, parents often pass on traits to children, that neither parent possess. Sound stupid, but with genetics 1+1 does not always = 2. 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 15:23
#59
20 May 2015, 15:23#59
Two more things, Draad . . . you talk of genetic traits that skip generations. Yes, everyone knows that but you're not making a distinction between a trait like brown eyes and a trait like homosexuality. There's a huge difference in the likelihood of the eye colour gene being passed on and a homosexual gene being passed on. Let's work on my (probably faulty) assumption that 1% of people are gay. In that case, 99% of people with brown eyes are passing on the brown-eye gene while the vast majority of people with the gay gene do not have offspring to pass it on to.

At the end of the day, you okes have to accept that to pass on genes you still have to breed. You still have to have intercourse with someone of the opposite sex (excluding Drivelling Avocado's laughably stupid exception of course) so to compare a trait or characteristic that determines whether offspring is possible with one that doesn't matter at all is ridiculous.

Secondly, we all know that identical twins have the same DNA. Where one of those identical twins is gay, less than 20% of the identical brothers or sisters are gay as well. Wouldn't that number be much closer to 100% if homosexuality was genetic?

PS Sorry, just realized that in my opening paragraph I was comparing a "brown-eye" gene with a gay gene. Bit of an unfortunate comparison now that I think about it but I promise that was not intentional! No offence intended to Moffie or any other gay posters!
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 15:25
#60
20 May 2015, 15:25#60
Yes Bluebok, I'm saying that a gay gene is not just an evolutionary weakness, it's an insurmountable evolutionary weakness.
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
20 May 2015, 16:09
#61
20 May 2015, 16:09#61

Rooinek

 

What a crock of s.h.i.t you posted

 

Fact is........ you are playing a guessing game with percentages to bleat your stupid thumb suck statistics.

 

Fact is........ I am not... you asked a question, I replied with fact 

 

You asked, how is it that gay people can pass on a gene because they cannot conceive or have children.

 

I gave you a certified, 100% guaranteed way of how that happens.... but you will thumb suck percentages to "try" and prove me wrong.

 

You stupid idiot

 

 

HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
20 May 2015, 16:12
#62
20 May 2015, 16:12#62
 Say NO to homo s ex uality and homophobia. No room for it in rugby as we know it.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 16:15
#63
20 May 2015, 16:15#63
"I gave you a certified, 100% guaranteed way of how that happens.... but you will thumb suck percentages to "try" and prove me wrong."

Wehe! Bet you this dullard wasn't trying to be funny and can't see the irony in his comment above!

LMAO!

Drivelling Avocado, let me put this to you as nicely as I can . . . you are too stupid to understand anything that I'm dumb enough to tell you.

Have a nice evening!
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
20 May 2015, 16:17
#64
20 May 2015, 16:17#64
 Rooi seemed to winning the argument
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
20 May 2015, 16:18
#65
20 May 2015, 16:18#65
hahahaha @ Hakwa
How can you say No to homos exualtity and no to homophobia? homophobia by its very definition means NO to homos exuality. In other words, you are saying NO to homos exuality and NO to the people that say NO to homosexuality! 
Funny shart!!
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
20 May 2015, 16:19
#66
20 May 2015, 16:19#66
 
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 May 2015, 17:00
#67
20 May 2015, 17:00#67
 OK, Rooi, I wasn't stating fact, I was thinking hypothetically how it might happen. I think it must be something more than just a choice, hence my idea that it must be genetic. It Hsxls are with us, so if it is not genetic, what causes it? Chance?
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 May 2015, 17:28
#68
20 May 2015, 17:28#68
". . . so if it is not genetic, what causes it? Chance?"
Environment, upbringing, incidents of abuse, peer pressure, media, self-esteem, drugs, hormones, unorthodox parenting, depression . . . I'm sure all of those factors and some others I've forgotten or omitted all play some part in determining a person's sexual preference.
I also think that homosexuality is much more prevalent in modern society and will continue to increase as long as it's glamorized in the media. Just take a look at how many TV shows and sitcoms now include at least one gay relationship. Not judging it and everyone is free to watch whatever they please but it does strike me that in general, the people who make movies and TV shows come from a more . . . let's just say "creative" demographic and this increase in gay awareness is very often some flaming screenwriter, producer or director trying to justify his or her own life choices. I bet if movies were made exclusively in Hickville Mississippi rather than Hollywood California you wouldn't have a gay couple in every second sitcom and we'd probably be discussing the problems of incest and moonshine rather than homosexuality.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
20 May 2015, 17:39
#69
20 May 2015, 17:39#69

Wow imagine being that ignorant to believe that being gay is a choice.......unbelievable.


Its insulting to be that stupid  

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
20 May 2015, 18:04
#70
20 May 2015, 18:04#70
 Ok, I agree that all those factors play a role, but I also think there is some physical compotent. Genes, DNA, whatever. Latent in most people, but triggered by some external influences like the ones you mentioned.Dave, there are people that  believe it's a choice.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
20 May 2015, 18:30
#71
20 May 2015, 18:30#71

Those people must be fucking idiots if they think being gay is a choice.


It would be highly insulting to any gay person to tell them they chose to be gay........I have a gay family member and can assure you their sexual preference was not a choice......as that person has often said, why on earth would you choose something that opens you up to such prejudices.


How on earth can a man choose to be attracted to another man, given what straight men think of the whole concept on a physical front.


Its a complete joke that anyone would think you would choose to be attracted to the same sex......you cant choose to be turned on by a man if you are straight, its simply impossible.


You are born gay just as people are sometimes born blind, deaf, deformed, mentally challenged etc  

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 May 2015, 19:00
#72
20 May 2015, 19:00#72
So Dave I guess you are saying that the aAs view that genetics plays no role is flawed.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 May 2015, 19:06
#73
20 May 2015, 19:06#73
 This seems to pretty much blow the aAs out of the water:

A study of gay men in the US has found fresh evidence that male sexual orientation is influenced by genes. Scientists tested the DNA of 400 gay men and found that genes on at least two chromosomes affected whether a man was gay or straight.

A region of the X chromosome called Xq28 had some impact on men's sexual behaviour – though scientists have no idea which of the many genes in the region are involved, nor how many lie elsewhere in the genome.

Another stretch of DNA on chromosome 8 also played a role in male sexual orientation – though again the precise mechanism is unclear.

Researchers have speculated in the past that genes linked to homosexuality in men may have survived evolution because they happened to make women who carried them more fertile. This may be the case for genes in the Xq28 region, as the X chromosome is passed down to men exclusively from their mothers.

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Michael Bailey, a psychologist at Northwestern University in Illinois, set out the findings at a discussion event held in conjunction with the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Chicago on Thursday. "The study shows that there are genes involved in male sexual orientation," he said. The work has yet to be published, but confirms the findings of a smaller study that sparked widespread controversy in 1993, when Dean Hamer, a scientist at the US National Cancer Institute, investigated the family histories of more than 100 gay men and found homosexuality tended to be inherited. More than 10% of brothers of gay men were gay themselves, compared to around 3% of the general population. Uncles and male cousins on the mother's side had a greater than average chance of being gay, too.

The link with the mother's side of the family led Hamer to look more closely at the X chromosome. In follow-up work, he found that 33 out of 40 gay brothers inherited similar genetic markers on the Xq28 region of the X chromosome, suggesting key genes resided there.

Hamer faced a firestorm when his study was published. The fuss centred on the influences of nature and nurture on sexual orientation. But the work also raised the more dubious prospect of a prenatal test for sexual orientation. The Daily Mail headlined the story "Abortion hope after 'gay genes findings' ". Hamer warned that any attempt to develop a test for homosexuality would be "wrong, unethical and a terrible abuse of research".

The gene or genes in the Xq28 region that influence sexual orientation have a limited and variable impact. Not all of the gay men in Bailey's study inherited the same Xq28 region. The genes were neither sufficient, nor necessary, to make any of the men gay.

The flawed thinking behind a genetic test for sexual orientation is clear from studies of twins, which show that the identical twin of a gay man, who carries an exact replica of his brother's DNA, is more likely to be straight than gay. That means even a perfect genetic test that picked up every gene linked to sexual orientation would still be less effective than flipping a coin.

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While genes do contribute to sexual orientation, other multiple factors play a greater role, perhaps including the levels of hormones a baby is exposed to in the womb. "Sexual orientation has nothing to do with choice," said Bailey. "We found evidence for two sets [of genes] that affect whether a man is gay or straight. But it is not completely determinative; there are certainly other environmental factors involved."

Last year, before the latest results were made public, one of Bailey's colleagues, Alan Sanders, said the findings could not and should not be used to develop a test for sexual orientation.

"When people say there's a gay gene, it's an oversimplification," Sanders said. "There's more than one gene, and genetics is not the whole story. Whatever gene contributes to sexual orientation, you can think of it as much as contributing to heterosexuality as much as you can think of it contributing to homosexuality. It contributes to a variation in the trait."

Qazi Rahman, a psychologist at King's College London, said the results were valuable for further understanding the biology of sexual orientation. "This is not controversial or surprising and is nothing people should worry about. All human psychological traits are heritable, that is, they have a genetic component," he said. "Genetic factors explain 30 to 40% of the variation between people's sexual orientation. However, we don't know where these genetic factors are located in the genome. So we need to do 'gene finding' studies, like this one by Sanders, Bailey and others, to have a better idea where potential genes for sexual orientation may lie."

Rahman rejected the idea that genetics research could be used to discriminate against people on the basis of their sexual orientation. "I don't see how genetics would contribute more to the persecution, discrimination and stigmatisation of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people any more than social, cultural or learning explanations. Historically, the persecution and awful treatment of LGBT groups has been because politicians, religious leaders and societies have viewed sexual orientation as 'choice' or due to poor upbringing."

Steven Rose, of the Open University, said: "What worries me is not the extent, if at all, to which our genetic, epigenetic or neural constitution and development affect our sexual preferences, but the huge moral panic and religious and political agenda which surrounds the question."

— END OF THREAD —

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