Frans Steyn seems to have matured into a more useful player since he last left our shores.

Stop statistic abuse through using stats for a purpose it was no designed to be used,    That is idiotic and is expected from a chancer like you.    In any event  said that what you and AO spout on site is not based on any knowledge about the game - and even though I did not provide your  user names to them they were clear on the issues I mentioned and said that if that is the level of discussion on this site it is clear that I should rather find anther forum where sensible discussions are found.  

Opportunities versus defects but how do you define opportunities...number of games or chances in a 15 man game where factors can vary and be dependent on coaching , the ability of the other guys in the team of 15 players and other factors.. I can understand that why it is used in business measurement...ie from 1 to 6 being the perfect goal.

But ie in rugby with utterly poor coaching and game plans in a separate era being a strong factor how can you evaluate a players ability in a far more stronger and better coaching in a different era?

Do those evaluate as opportunities...surely playing under a poor coach cannot be an opportunity but a separate defect.

In the right context rugby is not a business but a sport (although it canbe termed as a business in a different context).

Sport has to have "soul" as it entertains as well.

I tend to agree with Saffex that watching a game as a whole gives you get a wider picture of a successful combined effort to give a favorable result is what the enjoyment of the game is what and why we watch it, Narrowing it down to just stats is a narrow picture rather than seeing the wider perspective.

I just guess we are all built differently and see things from different angles...thank goodness for that and we should see things from other peoples angles...we can agree to disagree??? 

Dave

The stats used by coaches and experts are far more advanced and intricate than the rudimentary stats provided ESPN.   The fact is that  rudimentary stats  can be massively inaccurate.   Take fopr instance he case where a long kick is made by a player and then collected by a player nad carried to where the defenders tackle him or where he passed the ball to another player..   As much as 40 meters from  single kick could be credited to the ball recipient under such circumstances.

Then there is also tackles by two players like happened for instance in the case of the tackle on Vunipola  in the final where the  commentators said he was drilled by a double tackle by Marx and Mostert was credited with the tackle 0 but Mostert is hysically not able to drill a player in a tackle  - the drilling was done by Marx/

It is not wise to use rudimentary stats of ESPN to evaluate actual performances of players0 it can only serve as an indicator of tendencies displayed  by a  player,    That is even dangerous, but some of out members go further and use selected  activiteies sucha s ball carries and leace out defense, 

Our dearly departed member - Ceradyne once indicated that it cost about $15 000 per year to get to the comprehensive stats used by experts,           .  ,           

Lies and statistics - SA Rugbymag 

Although published in 2014 it explains how analysts now see the game. 

There's a sector of this forum who utilize video analysis to assess players, and expose myths. This is the same sector of the forum that uses stats in context. Where do you stand Chabal? I know where Saffy/Lister and Lügnerin stand. 

Of course one needs to observe and put things in context. But I generally find those who want to ignore stats  do so because they want to preserve their own biases, or like Mike simply can’t understand them,

Almost every time I have watched a game and then looked at the ESPN stats afterwards, additional information emerges.

Wow  and what analysis do you really do?   The same  kind that made you an embarrassment on site because you got caught out on site as being a total imbecile showing zero knowledge of the game.    Aside from that when you quote stats it is not real stats - but junk you made up and proved to be fraudulent.    The analysis you do are based entirely on your own idea of dreamed up BS.               

‘The analysis you do’ ....IS.....’based on’. Hahahaha when they were dumb they went into the army, dumber yet into the post office, but the catatonically stupid went into provincial administration. LMAOFY!

Mozart

Rather be stupid than a liar, fraudster and totally  rugby ignorant like you,  

By the way rugby idiot - I was at the time  one of the youngest officials  in SA to become Under Secretary  in the Public Service at the age of 36 - at the time the fourth highest rank in the SA service.   Funny - but no stupid and dishonest person could never achieve that,

As a HR and financial expert I was a Consultant  of National Treasury on education fianancing as well and responsible for budget control and management.  One year in the 1970's the budget was  R169 million and expenditure for the  year R952 more.            

I never was a provincial official - but was Town Secretary in local Government - the second highest rank in Municipalities at the time.      The unlikely thing happened - they refuse to let me retire and kept me in service until I was 70 years old..   Nice to be stupid like that,  at least I was human and responsible for the costruction of more than 10 000 houses for the extreme poor and providing a better livelihood for thousands of people.  

Have a nice day rugby liar and cheat.

.

Dave 

Please read the article posted by Seb - it is a very real situation when it comes to performance evaluation.   We do not have the information that the experts have to deal with real evaluations.

I always said that  the only stats we have can lead to some vague idea as to tendency seen in players,   I will give you an  example.   In two  RC tests Morne missed 11 of the 22 tackle attempts in which he was involved.   That is made worse because at least three of the tries scored stemmed from missed tackles by him.  So I stated that Morne became a weak defender and AO and Mozart nearly had a seizure.

Their performance analysis is based entirely on nit-picking in a desperate effort to discredit Erasmus and some players,  A recent example Mozart claimed that De Allende destroyed  a try-scoring opportunity early in the WC final.   I challenged him to produce  evidence and what he came up with was an incident happening in the English half - where Mozart claimed it was in the 22 -   When looking at the evidence  repeatedly there  was no try scoring opportunity and he was inventing something that never happened in a way he tried to describe it .   The fact is that both Mozart and   AO viewed Meyer and Coetzee as top coaches - but hate Erasmus,   So  if something is not at all found they would  invent what they call evidence  to discredit their pet hate players.

No Mozart

I developed a low opinion of you on this site.   Distortion and lies do not  portray a good  character.    You had the audacity ones to post a picture of me without asking my permission to do so.   

Your generalization as to corrupt local government stinks to high heaven.   It is libelous and worse - because you have no proof that I ever was corrupt in any way,      I will produce evidence for you by hundreds of people with whom I dealt and what you wrote is absolute crap,

I have principles and even though I sometimes make mistakes on site I always apologize  - unlike you when you ere caught out lying you never do and continue lying to cover up the lies,   You are a bombastic  and egotistic person who is not nice to know.   

Have a great lying day - BSter.          

Actually tit you came on the site and told us about the article, wanting to brag as usual. So I reproduced the article with your ugly mug, then when everybody saw you, you pretended you hadn’t directed us to exactly that article.

And you yourself told us about your times in corporate boxes, totally inappropriate for an active local government grunt.

We were having a tongue in cheek Rugby debate but with your total lack of a sense of humour ....you made it personal. Now you start whining about me responding after for post after post on this thread you called me a liar.

You have never caught me lying ever......what you call a lie is an opinion contrary to your’s. But if you can’t take the heat don’t. Start fires in the kitchen.

Mozart

I was invited by Toingaat-Hulett to their box a few times - that is never a bribe since they got nothing undue in return - only a lunatic will call that a bribe or inapprpruate,   

Maybe I should not call the misrepresentations you came up about what happened in matches lies - but there is not much difference between those two descriptions,   You have never given a reasonable account of what actually happened in matches ever - you twist occurrences to discredit certain players,    You have been caught out many times and that is what makes it clearrly dishonest.        

The very fact that you don’t see a problem being entertained by a land user, when you were involved with development, is exactly why things are so corrupt in South Africa.

The very fact that you don’t see a problem being entertained by a land user, when you were involved with development, is exactly why things are so corrupt in South Africa.

Hospitality box tickets and the odd lunch were seen as acceptable "gifts" in the past. I suppose one must look at the motives...

Again this is taken out of context.

 Box tickets never bought favours from suppliers or service providers...it was a gesture simply to say thank you for your support, in fact many did and that was a thoughtful gesture and for a person or a business of integrity it went down without any conflict of interest. 

It was just a small gift, just as we do with gifts over Christmas and birthdays...only a weak and corrupt person or entity can be bought.

The suggestion is utter nonsense.

Companies are aloud to invite people as entertainment and it is perfectly legal. Each company can use it an taxable expense and state they use it for entertainment. Not gifts. 

That is why you see so many sponsors get tickets and then use to entertain potential clients. This is how the business world work. 

One of our sales guys nearly got a 8 Stamford bridge tickets to entertain clients while watching Chelsea play. He was a Chelsea fan and I put a stop to it as I could not see any return on it but rather him getting great seats on our expense. 

That said, often companies can't get clients to come and end up giving these tickets away to friends and family or staff. 

So getting a ticket in a box is not a gift or bribe as the company paid for those seats. 

A box ticket is a small gift in context of what I mean...if the corporate is bought with that there's something wrong with the motive of the giver and receiver. If it meant extravaganza of parties and loose women that's entirely a different matter. I know it happens with some but you would have to be weak-minded for this to buy favour. Such shallowness does work with some, granted but it never pays to fall for an obvious intention to obligate one. I'm fully aware that the saying goes, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch in a general sense but small thoughtful gestures are tasteful and acceptable between those who you respect. Extravagant gifts are entirely a different matter and off-putting and ill-bred.

We had a box at Tottenham in the eighties. It worked brilliantly....customers came when their team was playing Tottenham. We gave  them a great lunch, never discussed business except in the most cursory way and all left the moment the game ended. It allowed me to meet all our major customers without a bunch of tedious traveling.

But I would never have invited a local government official to the box, especially if we needed a decision on something. And if we couldn’t ‘influence’ things, the box space was better given to a corporate client with a give and take relationship.

And the example could have permeated the company. Favours to government officials, given or accepted, small or large .....are looking for trouble.

Mozart

Thats fine - but I never did favors for anybody.    The one example I can give you  happened years ago in the 1990's,  There was a water shortage in the Ballito, Chakas Rock and  Salt Rock areas and the Municipality was in negotiation  with  Umgeni Water about the bulk supply of water,   It was agreed that a huge reservoir will be built on the highest  hill between Durban and the Tugela River at a cost of R18 million,    The  Municipal contribution to the cost would have been R3 nillion.    I then suggested that we offer Umgeni Water instead of paying them 2 hectares of land on which the Reservoir could be built.  The Municipality had a property of 1 hectare with a small reservoir on site and other hectare  we need belonged to Mr Johnny Rey - the brother-in-law of Penny Coelen Rey,   

Since I was on friendly terms with the Rey's  for many years before I worked for the Municipality I was to undertake the negotiations with Mr Rey.    I offered him R700 000 for the hectare of land and he accepted it.    The offer was based on land coats at the time in the area/  Umgeni said the land price was too high and they would negotiate with Mr Rey themselves.  They offered him R380 000 -  and Mr Rey asked me for advice,    I was miffed because the Municipality would not benefit from the deal and then decided to help Mr Rey in the  negotiations/    I helped him and in the end they paid Mr Rey R1,1 nillion for the land.   He invited me over for lunch one day and suddenly gave me a cheque for R25 000 for the oprovate help I gave him.   I tore up the cheque, 

In conversation with Bruce Hulett - the father-in-law of Joel Stranski - about land issues  I said to him something very pertinent.   When I represent the Municipality I have no friends wggebn I knowingly offered him R1 million for a property valued at R1,8 million.   He said I must be joking and I then gradually raised the offer to R1,5 million and when he still hesitated I said  we will then have to expropriate the land.    He then said OK - and I suggested that to ease the situation he rather sign a sale agreement for R1,5 million.    That was done and after other agreement was signed he one day asked me whether we had an valuation done iro the property  and I said sure - the evaluation was for R1,8 million. 

I  gave you the above examples to prove that I never did any favors for anybody and people throughout the  North Coast knew that I was a hard negotiator and did no favors for anybody,  I can give you many more examples,  The Tongaat-Hulett people knew that too - so they got nothing in return other than advice on developments that would benefit the people in the area -  especially the poor - and  the Municipality,         

Johnny and Bruce are still my friends,                           

Dupli cation                

So you threatened to expropriate Hulett’s  land if he didn’t sell it to the municipality for R300000 below market value? And that’s ethical?

Tell you what Mike, let’s drop it, you shouldn’t be sharing these details on an open site. 

Mozart

A year later there was  a light industry developer who wanted to buy the adjoining property of the same size from Bruce and I promised to support the project  as it would have created thousands of jobs for especially unemployed people,    End result Bruce got  R 50 million for the property,  

Threatened people with expropriation was just part of my standard tough negotiation process and was in fact never implemented,

So both sides were happy.

Funny part - the newspaper that published that article when I left twice called me "That  Communist on the hill" - but in the end never criticized  me and respected me     

I only put it on site to prove that I was not a person that would do favors for anybody - bar the poor and deprived.                      

Duplicate

Mozart is right about personal names and details of property  referred to Hulett and Joel Stransky's family, Michael. The Hulett family would not like it, especially after the reigns of the famous company was stolen by the deceit of Tongaat Sugar. 

John Hulett: Tongaat's deception of my family began decades ago - BizNews.com

A lovely family started by Sir Liege Hulett,  Kearsney College on farm, later moved to Botha's Hill. My late mother, as a young girl, was courted by one of the Hulett's, before she met my dad, not sure which one but it was during war years. She told me years later.

You’re not sure which one was your. dad? Lol!