DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
21 May 2015, 15:10#5
Incorrect. Quite interesting though, you will write off the successful de Jongh because of weight, but you praise Serfontein who has been run over repeatedly.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
21 May 2015, 15:39#7
Last week?
Lets look at his senior career as a whole, besides, Mozart dealt with last week well enough. You lack perspective. There is a middle ground, not everything is either best or worst thing ever.
21 May 2015, 16:51#9
As long as they don't play the game on a see-saw, I think the Stormers will be just fine!
Much rather Senatla on the wing then any of the other blokes they have trotted out.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 May 2015, 17:21#10
I had to go out on business and did not really complete this message. Fact is my rating of backline players are as follows;-
1. Bigger built players with ball sense and skills2. Smaller players with ball sense and skills3. Bigger players without ball sense and skills4. Smaller players without ball sense and skills
If you look at the Stormers backline there are two of the players (De Jongh and Leyds) in category 4. Kolbe is a 2 - and we will have to see how Senatla adjust to the 15 man game. What worries me is that outside of De Allende the players are all small and in the past De Jongh and Leyds have been defensive liabilities.
The Rebels do have a good backline and this year they beat both the Chiefs and the Crusaders. I would hate to see them run over the defense deficient Stormers backline.
AGAgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AGAgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
21 May 2015, 17:39#11
Mike, I don't think De Jongh would work at test level due to size but to say he doesn't have ball sense and skills is incredibly harsh and quiet simply not true. He's a very skillful player that just wouldn't work because of size but he's not a bad rugby player , not in the slightest.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 May 2015, 17:42#12
At about 5' 10" Senatla is going to be pretty small....but he is one of those strong small chaps. And not up against the US Eagle fliers who made him look like a tortoise....he should have a pace edge.
AGAgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AGAgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
21 May 2015, 17:44#13
I like Senatla, Habana is still my man for the Starting at the WC, but Senatla has potential.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 May 2015, 17:44#14
Spot on deddy....week in week out de Jongh contributes to the Stormers cause.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
21 May 2015, 17:53#15
He was never paced by the US players and that is a fact and he is listed as taller than 5'10 which is spot on....he is about 6 and weighs no less than 90kg these days
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 May 2015, 18:10#16
Dav e
No use to guess the weight of players - because you wish they are in fact the weight you would like them to be. Senatla is a smallish guy and not particularly strongly built - he is on the slim side in my book.
However, they will give his weight before the game and would like to see how much that is. With the best of luck It could be in the early 80's - nothing more.
I would like to see how he adjust to the 15 man game - I have a suspicion he would end up as a Sevens specialist like Cecil Africa.
AGAgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AGAgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
21 May 2015, 19:24#18
Saffex is right, he looks much bigger than 76kg, if he is around 85kg even that would be good. Google has Jason Robinson at 82kg and we all know how lethal he was, if Senatla can get anywhere near his level of production, we have a serious player on our hands.
JEJeromeV
Club Pro492 posts
21 May 2015, 20:36#19
Mike your notion is off the mark on this.
You didn't watch the Waratahs vs Stormers this year? If you did then you would know why players with higher weight doesn't always have an advantage against opposing players, the Waratahs had 102KGs Folau and 120KG's Naiyaravoro in their backline against us, none of the two players sparked any threat in the backline and the game was rather one sided to the Stormers. It's a well known fact that weight doesn't always equal strength like Lestat said.
The only major weak links in the backline are Catrakillis and Schreuder, both players distorts the backline by wasting possession in key areas with kicking or knock ons, there's nothing much Catrakillis has to offer with ball in hand apart from his accurate goal kicking and that's become evident this season.
Despite the 9 and 10's weaknesses it's an exciting backline with Senatla returning, he's proved he can adapt fine in 15 man rugby as seen in Currie Cup and JWC so i wouldn't make a distinction that he's only a good sevens player, he's electric in both codes. Leyds is also a talented player with a good step and agility, we all know what Kolbe can do as well, watch this space!
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 May 2015, 21:01#20
Jerome
If you read what I said about the weight and size issue - you may have a wider understanding of the issue. I think that a lot of smaller players are seriously good rugby players - but they have to compensate for that by being clever players with advanced skills levels.
If those skills levels and ball sense are not in evidence in smaller players you have a serious problem. I have watched De Jongh carefully playing for years. If put in space he is a good finisher - but that is where it ends. He constantly miss more than 25% of the tackles he attempts - he has a tendency to lose balls when tackled and the problem is that he is also a poor passer of balls. All those tendencies makes for a smaller player with less advanced skills levels.
The combination of D e Jongh and Leyds together is a nightmare from all perspectives. It is indeed amazing that Leyds actually is selected on Super 15 level. He went to the Western Force for a year, was found wanting and virtually never made the starting line-up. At the end of the year the Force would not extend his contract and he came back to the Western Cape. Not being good enough for the Force - he suddenly became a permanent wing for the Stormers. That is why I say that he should with luck play rugby on Vodacom Cup level at the most. This is a physically-small player with near to zero ball skills and at the same time a poor defender.
I foresee that the combination of those two player let to the loss of the Stormers in the game against the Cheetahs. The same can be said of other Stormers losses this year as well. It is that combination more than anything else that worries me about the Stormers backline.
Another issue that bothers me is how will Senatla fit into the 15 man game - where requirements are entirely different from the Sevens game. Is he going to be good enough on the wing under the high balls, is he going to be able to operate in a game where tackling is much tighter and there is much less space? These are just a minor number of issues, but in general I do not know - neither does anybody who are making statements about the issue. I hope Senatla succeeds - but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and the pudding is there - but the eating is in time to come. Speed he has aplenty - but what about the rest?
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
22 May 2015, 06:41#21
This is a perfectly fine WP backline...the only concerns are at halfback where Cat is not the best in general play and Schreuder is a calamity.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 May 2015, 07:08#22
Mozart
We will see tomorrow if that is a "perfectly fine backline" - I have a suspicion that it would be found wanting wider out and that the blame would be laid by you on the three players to the inside.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 May 2015, 07:08#23
Mozart
We will see tomorrow if that is a "perfectly fine backline" - I have a suspicion that it would be found wanting wider out and that the blame would be laid by you on the three players to the inside.
22 May 2015, 08:55#24
Allende vs Inman - interesting.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
22 May 2015, 11:46#25
Michael will come here with numbers out of context and prove he was right. That, or just lie. Whichever is more convenient.
22 May 2015, 12:59#26
Has Coetzee gone completely mad? Have u met Sir JK?
JEJeromeV
Club Pro492 posts
23 May 2015, 21:22#27
It's fair to say today's match confirmed that Mike's point of view is utterly wrong.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
23 May 2015, 21:40#28
Letsal
Absolute balls - I look at the game objectively and then look whether the stats support my contention. I often look at the game a second time to see whether my impression of the game is correct.
I do not use "numbers out of context" as you allege. I would look at the numbers and evaluate them on a format comparable with other players in the same position. Numbers out of context is what you published here iro Francois Steyn in 2013. Those numbers without proper evaluation is meaningless. However, from your subsequent comments on that issue it is clear that you do not have a clue about the concept of player evaluation based on stats.
I never use one game as a basis for evaluation - since that would not be realistic. Player tendencies are done to determine trends in player performances over a series of games and for that stats is one of the vehicles used.
Like Mozart - one incident in a single game is turned by you into a myriad of such incidents during a tournament or season. That result in some of your famous assessments promoting useless players as the best players around and running down players ten times better than your favourites.
Have fun in your cloud 9 dreamworld.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 May 2015, 21:41#29
Nope noted rugby brains like Beeno and Mallet agree totally with Mike.Mallet said this backline will not cope against top kiwi backlines. He is of course absolutely correct. Only those with their heads buried in the sand would not see this
Hats off to the pack for spreading out so effectively and defending so well.
Looking forward to Van Wyk getting back - and Taute being an option.Howard has been completely wasted!!! O Alistair has little clue. Its abit like trying to win the comp on defence only. He is still blind to hard reality. it took Alistair years to work out defence only is the wrong approach and i am afraid he will leave the Stormers still wondering what went wrong given what a magnificent pack he has. it will be even better if Rhodes returns. The 102 kg wee kolisi is not in the same league as rhodes a battler of note who would not let the Boks down. A man to go to war with.
Beeno bring much needed perspective to Jerome and some others who cant see the wood from the trees! .
JEJeromeV
Club Pro492 posts
23 May 2015, 22:49#30
Yea right, keep living in a fantasy world then.
It's clear that there is a misunderstanding in the case of where the real issues come from in the Stormers backline. There's been a lot of flak towards the outside backs which i think is unjustified. In most matches this year Kolbe and Leyd's did put a huge amount of effort in their performances. They both have a superb sidestep, good pace and the ability to create which I've seen. There is a exaggeration when some make the claim that Kolbe and Leyd's defence is poor, i'm not sure whether you lot are making that claim based on one match or the whole season in general?
As I've stated before the obvious problem in the backline revolves around 9 and 10. None of the players in both positions have been consistent enough. Catrakillis is looking like a very ordinary fly half compared to Pollard and Jantjies simply because he has nothing much to offer, a real lack of versatility really, Catrakillis is nowhere close to achieving what Pollard and Jantjies has done this year however he does play well at times but not on a consistent basis.
BEBeeno1
Captain40,032 posts
BEBeeno1Captain40,032 posts
23 May 2015, 22:53#31
Its always a pity when beginners like jerome wan t to argue the toss with the likes of Beeno and Mallet and Mike also in this case.
sharkbok
Captain23,285 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
23 May 2015, 23:25#32
I would get rid of Lyeds. He actually gets the ball rather often and does little with it.
JEJeromeV
Club Pro492 posts
23 May 2015, 23:29#33
Another meaningless post.
You lot always come up with the same old rubbish again about how these players are too small in the backline. The Stormers backline is actually part of the resilience that has carried the team forward high on the log, above the teams that have much bigger backline players. The Stormers backline should get the praise and credit where it's due especially players like Kolbe and Leyd's who has been brilliant this season, both were electric this week. Wake up!
24 May 2015, 00:29#34
Kolbe is class but Leyd's is a weakness, he's had one good game and that was today and that was only because of the two tries as he did nothing else of note. A part from today he has shown nothing on attack and is incredibly weak in contact which is a huge negative in his game, Kolbe has an incredible amount of courage which Leyd's lacks and is probably why Kolbe is the better player.
I've yet to see Leyd's step nevermind pull one off. I think you can't have both in your backline, it gives the opposition a route to the try line and I think it would be stupid to take Kolbe out so Leyd's goes in my mind.
sharkbok
Captain23,285 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
24 May 2015, 01:16#35
I think Kolbe is a great player and may also cut it at Test Level. He is a better defender that Willie Leroux.
Lleyds is just average- it does not matter if he is big or small.
JEJeromeV
Club Pro492 posts
24 May 2015, 01:38#36
Shezza, You really think Leyds only had one good game? I can recall Leyd's beating defenders in a lot of matches this year by using his side stepping ability, he was heavily praised at the start of season after the first few matches and he continued to show some good performances during the Australasian tour. I have a compilation video in the works for this player and it's looking very good. For a natural flyhalf / fullback i must say he has slotted in nicely in a unfamiliar position for him on the wing.
Sorry I don't have the same perception of this player but i know you lot will come to your senses sooner than later once Leyds shows his brilliance in more matches to come.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 May 2015, 04:17#37
Haha....seems Coetzee had this pretty well scoped.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 May 2015, 05:29#38
The backline got run over twice and it nearly happened more often. It should be remembered that the Rebels are weak travellers and that they are not the top team in Australia either.
There was really one nonentity in that backline yesterday and that was Juan de Jongh. Leyds had a better day than expected - but only because he managed to score two tries - his defense was iffy. Senatla did very little in either phases of the play.
24 May 2015, 05:31#39
So Coetzee is not mad then?
