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FORUM / RUGBY /  How the Boks can become great again.

How the Boks can become great again.

Started by MrPace142 REPLIES2,277 VIEWS· 13 Oct 2016, 14:18
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:00
#41
14 Oct 2016, 14:00#41
 Guys, there probably are more than a few "multi" posters on this forum so if Mr Pace is a multi who cares. He has an opinion & gets a response from other posters so fine with me.
PS I don't think he is Boklogic even though Boklogic lived in NZ for a while. Boklogic got lost when the name and address of the board changed. Plus, he was a bitter wee chap & so far Mr Pace has not ranted or attacked other posters the way Boklogic did. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Pace was Arosticrat, etc. but my point is I don't care.

MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:02
#42
14 Oct 2016, 14:02#42
 No cloudy, I was about 18.It's not like I was here everyday....I just popped in before and after each springboks match to get the general feeling of the teams position.
I will no longer respond to Rooinek or Cleancut, it's a waste of time.
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:04
#43
14 Oct 2016, 14:04#43
I copied the article Cloudy referenced below to help the discussion. 
Can South Africa get out this mess? by  Tony Johnson

It was seven years between tests in Durban for the All Blacks.

So much has happened in that time for the two great rivals, and the result on Saturday makes it pretty clear who is now ascendant and who is flat lining.

In the 2009 version the Springboks were in the process of dealing to the All Blacks three nil, with the All Blacks really only going close in one test, the third in Hamilton, and having their limitations ruthlessly exposed by a Springbok team still riding the wave after the 2007 Rugby World Cup triumph.

A big, powerful, and street-smart forward pack, built around the masterful Victor Matfield, with Fourie du Preez tormenting the ABs with pinpoint kicks, Bryan Habana chasing the ball like it owed him money, Morne Steyn in his point-scoring pomp, and, in the middle of it all, the class of Jean de Villiers.

That was a great Springbok team and they forced the All Black bosses to take a cold hard look at their own team and where they needed to get better.

From the rubble of that defeat were laid the foundations for the side you see today, one of the best to have ever played the game, perhaps the best. That has to be considered in contextualising the destruction in Durban.

On the other hand South Africa finds itself nearing crisis point, having been subjected to the worst home defeat of its existence, the magnitude of that defeat cruelly exposed in stats, which show the Boks barely able to win 30 percent of the ball and spending less than a minute inside the All Blacks 22….and that might have just have been the time it took for Morne Steyn's goal kicks to travel the distance.

Can South Africa get out of this mess?

Of course, although clearly there are issues that are going to take time to resolve. There are the much documented political pressures that so many people want to blame above all else, but from my observations it appears rugby in South Africa has also suffered from years of faltering, parochial, and, in some cases, self-serving leadership.

There are things that can be dealt with more readily.

A good start might be a rethink of the Springboks defensive system. Any professional sports team worth its salt will tell you it starts there…it sounds simple, but the adage is the fewer points you concede the fewer you need to win a game.

Spirited tackling kept the Boks in the Durban test, at least on the scoreboard, until half time, but if you hold back and allow a team like the All Blacks to run at you, you are going to get badly burned over the full course of the match.

The Boks chose not to get up and close down the All Blacks' time and space. So the most lethal attacking team that game has ever seen had the first five metres free every time to scan their options, make their choice and either move the ball or run hard at the space between static defenders. The Boks missed 40 tackles because they had to make 215. Yes, there was some poor individual execution, but they were compromised by the system.

The defensive issue was of course greatly exacerbated by the Springboks' aimless kicking. In 2009 the All Blacks were under constant pressure because of the pin-point accuracy of Fourie du Preez and the chase of Habana.

The 2016 version just lumped the ball down the All Blacks' throat, gave it back to them. The All Blacks, with twice as much ball, kicked about the same number of times, but more often than not were able to pressure the receiver, if not win it back. My, how that worm has turned.

When they did run the ball the Springboks tended to move it from player to player, without really trying to manipulate the defense, more looking for someone to break a tackle.

It’s a style of play that has traditionally suited South Africa’s powerful midfield backs, an almost instinctive desire to look for contact and try and bust tackles. The game has moved on though, most defensive screens are pretty good, and so while the All Blacks will still take contact when need be, they have spent the last few years developing ways of finding space.

Rohan Janse van Rensburg looks a fantastic prospect, hopefully he won’t go down the same path as some of the other centres of recent years.

The current coach staff are clearly struggling, but there has been no succession planning so every new coach starts from scratch. Besides, you can’t lump all the blame on them for problems that are endemic. A greater accent on skills, fitness, and decision-making across every level of the game will allow the powerful and fast athletes you produce to realise their potential.

Eddie Jones is right. The Springboks don’t need to try and play the All Black style, but their style is in need of an upgrade. The Lions showed this year it is possible to marry traditional strengths with a new age approach.

Off the field things get very complicated.

The hope has to be that the current administration can try and work WITH the government so that solutions can be found without the need for such drastic measures in future.

I do wonder if those who defended the policy of allowing players to be selected from overseas are now prepared to admit it is proving counter productive?

New Zealand's economy isn’t exactly up in lights either, but the New Zealand Union has stood firm in its policy and is reaping the rewards. They control the workloads, injury management and development of the elite players, at the same time upholding the integrity and quality of Super Rugby and our domestic competition the Mitre 10 Cup.

It also means they can groom players for the years ahead, and their succession planning has proven to be spot in, with the loss of Carter, McCaw, Nonu and co hardly noticed.

In contrast Saru has to haggle with disinterested European clubs over the availability of players who then turn up for test rugby in less than peak condition, and all the while the Super Rugby and Currie Cup standards are being lowered.

I see now that Eben Etzebeth is going to Saracens, which is a terrible blow for the Stormers. He gave his all in Durban, making 12 tackles and missing none, but his ball carrying hasn’t been so good, perhaps he has been a bit blunted because of his off-season time in Japan.

Again this is a situation NZ Rugby has tried to manage by allowing a few elite players the option of a “sabbatical” season, making some big hay offshore, in return for a longer commitment to the black jersey.

I would hazard a guess to say that there are similar numbers of New Zealanders, or products of the New Zealand system plying their trade offshore as there are South Africans, but with very few exceptions, the ones who want to play for the All Blacks are in New Zealand. South Africa has never tested that loyalty.

Look, its easy from a distance to say “do this, do that”. We’re not in the same boat, and any suggestions or criticisms from a Kiwi perspective are offered with the utmost respect.

New Zealanders would always celebrate a 50-point victory over the Wallabies because of the “little brother, poor relation, chip on the shoulder” attitudes that blow back and forth across the Tasman Sea. But while New Zealanders were thrilled with the All Black performance, they took no great pleasure out of the Springboks humiliation. It’s a rivalry that has been controversial, brutal and at times fractious, but it is the best there is.

It can continue to be, it needs to be, and I’m sure the Boks can bounce back, but there is much work to be done. A gathering of coaches is a start, but only strong leadership in the halls of power can really get the job done. Sometimes, as we in NZ know only too well, it can take a humiliating defeat to prompt a much needed shake up.

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:10
#44
14 Oct 2016, 14:10#44
"I will no longer respond to Rooinek or Cleancut, it's a waste of time."

Well I think anyone reading this thread will realise why you don't want to respond to me anymore.

LMAO!
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:11
#45
14 Oct 2016, 14:11#45
MrPace, I'll take your word for the time being, but you must understand that this board has a history of deception....and your story seems a bit far fetched...which does not mean it can't be true. Welcome whoever you are!
Do you follow the Currie Cup, whose your favorite team? Same for Super Rugby?
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:13
#46
14 Oct 2016, 14:13#46
 Rooie I was wondering about his use of possessives in his writings .And whoever he is I certainly dont think someone especially a NZ born kid would trade the Likes of Lomuh and co for someone elses team ,and bugger all to do with patriotism .He says watching them play NZ in the 2003 RWC was the turning point for him ,pardon me for saying so but there have been many great bok teams worth watching but on that day that wasnt one of them .
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:15
#47
14 Oct 2016, 14:15#47
 My favourite super rugby team is up in the air at the moment.I started with the stormers in 2004.Then I noticed Habana in 2005, so I found myself cheering for the Bulls.I supported the Bulls right the way through till around 2012/2013 when they lost a bunch of players and kind of became pathetic.Since then I haven't really had a standout favourite, so I tend to just get up at 3am to watch whichever South African team is doing the best. In this years case, it was the Lions. 
The currie cup I do not follow as I don't find local competitions very interesting compared to international competitions.
I'm more into tennis and cricket than rugby, but nothing beats a Springboks vs All Blacks clash in my opinion.
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:21
#48
14 Oct 2016, 14:21#48
 Wardad,
The thing that you and a lot of other posters are not understanding is that there was no logic in me becoming a Bok fan.
You are trying to argue an emotional product with logic, and that never really works (just ask your girlfriend).
The transition was purely emotional. I think the history of what rugby has done for South Africa played a part somewhere in my brain and I also disliked the media's and the general public's glorification of the All Blacks.
They are just two things which influenced my emotions, I can't remember others and I probably wasn't aware of them.
If having a favourite team was a logical process wouldn't we all just be All Black fans because they play the best rugby and win all the time?
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:25
#49
14 Oct 2016, 14:25#49
Mr Pace is "more into tennis...", could he be BEENO?
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:32
#50
14 Oct 2016, 14:32#50
 Cloudy, I do not think that I have to have an emotional bond to a country to use it's University, or any of its facilities to be honest. And no I feel no affiliation to the university I am at. Why would I? Me going to a university doesn't change what I objectively think of that University. The University has not become a better place simply because I go there.
Yes I know nobody that was born here who doesn't go for the All Blacks. I'm sorry thinking for myself and not conforming to the expectations.
So you have a problem with non patriots?What about a North Korean who is not patriotic because they don't like their country? Would you still have a problem with them.I think the world would be a much more peaceful place if we could get over ourselves and our nationalism.

MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:33
#51
14 Oct 2016, 14:33#51
 Justwin,
Yes that is the obvious answerSurely there can't be 2 people that like tennis!!!!
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:36
#52
14 Oct 2016, 14:36#52
 He's a liar. 
He stutters and stammers when pressed and has suddenly decided that the best plan of action is to take the 5th.
He has no loyalty to his country of birth ... jumps from one rugby team to the next ... in short ... he's an arsehole.




JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:38
#53
14 Oct 2016, 14:38#53
 Correct Mr Pace, two people who like tennis is very unlikely 
So there we have it Mr Pace is Beeno, albeit a more logical & articulate version. All those meds & therapy must finally have paid off.
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:39
#54
14 Oct 2016, 14:39#54
 Which part of NZ are you based in Cloudy?
An enigma? Sorry about that.
My name is Michael, I am 26 years old and was born in Wanganui, New Zealand.I am currently working as a Data Scientist in the stock market whilst attaining my master's degree in Mathematics at Massey University, Palmerston north.
My hobbies include chess, poker, tennis, cricket, rugby, golf, and soccer.I'm also partial to an occasional game of online risk.I do enjoy movies, however my taste is very narrow.My favourite foods are Asian based, with Thai food being the ultimate favourite.My sleeping patterns are unusual, and I can recite Pi to 300 decimal places.I love dogs, particularly labradors, I love all animals really.I don't have a lot of friends (go figure) but the friends I do have are dearly close, and that's all I need.
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:47
#55
14 Oct 2016, 14:47#55
 Just win
It was shock therapy that did the trick.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:47
#56
14 Oct 2016, 14:47#56
 So tell me did the 3 penalties SA kicked in that 2003 1/4 final reach deep into some inner yearning for something other than tries being scored ? You must love this incarnation of the Boks then .When the great West Indies teams of the 80s and early 70s played anyone other than NZ i would always barrack for them  so I get admiration for great teams but that was for a particular era .Many on here are born  and bred  in SA and have always been bok fans and though some  may say they are going to cheer for NZ or whoever against the Boks but in their hearts its just an empty threat born of frustration .So yeah not buying what your peddling ,watching for 8 years on a site thats been going for half that ? Maths not your strong suit ? 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:50
#57
14 Oct 2016, 14:50#57
 Mr Pace, I think you said yourself this board can be a little spicy so you should not be surprised by the comments on this thread.
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:52
#58
14 Oct 2016, 14:52#58
 Ah cloudy I understand that North Korea is an extreme case, but I used the tactic of extremities to outline a flaw in the concept of nationalism.
Yes they do indeed go to war and fight for our country, but what causes the wars?One should never fight for a country, one should only ever fight for the good of humanity. Are the men who fought for Adolf Hitler also heroes? No.
Funnily enough I just returned from a trip to Gallipolli. The glorification of war really was quite disturbing with all countries guilty of it.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:53
#59
14 Oct 2016, 14:53#59
Kiwi posters, let's just agree that he's one of yours.
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:54
#60
14 Oct 2016, 14:54#60
Wardad.
As stated earlier, my estimate of 8 years was probably far off the mark. It certainly has been at least 4 years though. I don't remember an exact year as to my first visit.
I don't remember the game in 2003, not at all. I don't remember any of the players, the penalties, the trys, nothing.
All I remember is that I think it would be great if South Africa won.
That is all.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:55
#61
14 Oct 2016, 14:55#61
 Who the hell goes on a board like this and starts immediately telling all and sundry his supposed life story including his name and age ?JW if he was doing that combined scrummaging and tractor maintenance course I might have bought it eh ? Strangely enough when I cracked that the other day I used Massey uni ....
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 14:58
#62
14 Oct 2016, 14:58#62
 Rooie hes all yours ,please ? I will throw in one one slightly soiled jockstrap found in a CH CH airport loo .
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:05
#63
14 Oct 2016, 15:05#63
Yes cloudy I also lived in Australia on a gap year before studying.Oh the patriotism there is horrendous. Really infuriated me. Fortunately there is enough positives to negate that fact.How did you like my resume, am I clearer for you now?
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:06
#64
14 Oct 2016, 15:06#64
 Cloudy how are you ? As you know I will barrack for the Wallabies from time to time so long as they arent playing our boys .But thats because I was not only a digger but captained an Australian Army team twice back in the 80s but I would still always be a Kiwi at heart and will always back NZ teams first.Its just proper like.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:10
#65
14 Oct 2016, 15:10#65
 Anyone who cant display loyalty to his birthplace when its not some hole like North Korea [ and many NKs still love their country but not the system}  or to wherever they have put down roots is worth less than zero far as I am concerned .And if you cant think of why its worth defending then you are as sad as they get .
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:11
#66
14 Oct 2016, 15:11#66
 Here's a little piece of art I produced for the skeptics out there.
https://postimg.org/image/4i84hxuzh/
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:13
#67
14 Oct 2016, 15:13#67
And that proves what ? That your a saffa  in NZ ?And why would someone with no loyalty to home or kin go to Gallipoli ? 
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:15
#68
14 Oct 2016, 15:15#68
 Wardad
There is a problem with your statement concerning loving your country if it's not a hole like North Korea.This brings in an element of subjectivity. What makes a country good? What makes a country a hole? You cannot draw lines there. Maybe I think New Zealand is a hole, maybe I don't, the point is, nothing and no one can define whether a country is good or not.
If NZ was worth defending, why don't we have an air force?That's more of a joke by the way.
So Hitler was worth defending then? Interesting.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:17
#69
14 Oct 2016, 15:17#69
 No probs Cloudster ,gotta look out for me wee Mozzie Indiginous Aussie kids eh ? I would not barrack for any other Aussie teams though .No way Jose !
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:17
#70
14 Oct 2016, 15:17#70
 WarDad, I took my father to Gallipolli for his 60th birthday present as a thank you for everything he has done for me.
He is mad keen on WW1.
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:18
#71
14 Oct 2016, 15:18#71
 So cloudy, what is your problem with the Australian sports teams anyway? Is it just the Wallabies you don't like or all of Australian sports? I don't like their cricket team, but see no problem with the rest.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:20
#72
14 Oct 2016, 15:20#72
 Oh no dont tell me you went there ,Hitler !!! Dude you obviously have English as a second language if the sentence about NKs loving their country but hating the political system somehow equals Hitler !
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:20
#73
14 Oct 2016, 15:20#73
Crikey...it takes up all sorts to make up a comedy of errors...the trouble is very few honest in the world...and this is just a minor portion of it...so what do we do, continue to try and live peacefully with each other or take the easy way out...distrust everything and become cynical...put everything under a microscope and become fearful unloving ass-holes. It's a world of deceit and ducking and diving and the winner takes it all but this is ugly...Mr Spaceman, if your are genuinely not the Bozo of many identities then I'll be the first to apologise...as Billy Joel used to sing:

If you search for tenderness
It isn't hard to find
You can have the love you need to live
But if you look for truthfulness
You might just as well be blind
It always seems to be so hard to give

Honesty is such a lonely word
Everyone is so untrue
Honesty is hardly ever heard.....

Selah over and out!
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:24
#74
14 Oct 2016, 15:24#74
 When we get to Godwins law so quickly and with so little reference to anything remotely to do with Nazis thats when I pull the plug .Whoever or whatever you are your full of sh!t ,Dont talk to me again thanks whoever or whatever you are .Liar would be about right.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:28
#75
14 Oct 2016, 15:28#75
 Rooie actually had you pegged from the off .Hey Sebb been matching the hatch lately ? I have been fooling about with some tiny deceiver patterns on the local bream and whiting ,not as many as on baits but better quality .Using a 6 weight rod is fun when something bigger comes along !
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:29
#76
14 Oct 2016, 15:29#76
 Bye Cloudy ! Catch us a mullet for the smoker eh ?
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:33
#77
14 Oct 2016, 15:33#77
 Yea but I'm considering giving it up for moral reasons.
No I have zero emotional connection to NZ. The reason? Well I don't see a reason to have a connection. I was born here, why is that a reason to like a country? I don't particularly like the New Zealand people. They have a very much conforming attitude and really don't think for themselves too much. I cannot stand the binge drinking culture, the sexism, and the alpha male type attitude of this country.Don't get me wrong, I think New Zealand is objectively a good country, however, I don't see it superior to a bunch of other countries at all.Cloudy, if you just so happened to be born in Australia instead of New Zealand, you would be sitting here loving Australia and swearing that you will always support them. Does it not rattle you that your very core as a character could so easily have been different with a simple change of birthplace? It just makes no sense to me how people's birthplaces influence them as people....it's just baffling to me how such a trivial matter can influence which team someone supports, which country they fight for, and what religion they adopt. It's almost like these people are just being given a default setting and never questioning it.
I was not comparing NZ to North Korea. I was simply pointing out a flaw in patriotism/nationalism. How can anyone seriously support North Korea? But so many North Koreans haven't gotten out of their default setting of "blindly support your country".I will reiterate that this is not a comparison to NZ, I'm simply undermining the concept of patriotism.
Hitler. Well that's in response to comments made about fighting for your country as if it's a good thing. To that I say, were the German's in WW2 right for fighting for their country? Right for supporting such a hideous system?  
AG
AgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:35
#78
14 Oct 2016, 15:35#78
Agree with all these steps, I think their definitely needs to be a proper plan, rather than pick a team and hope which seems to be happening now. Welcome to the boards, Mr Pace
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:37
#79
14 Oct 2016, 15:37#79
 .
MR
MrPaceRookie57 posts
14 Oct 2016, 15:38
#80
14 Oct 2016, 15:38#80
 Wardad,
I'm disappointed that you are unable to open your mind and accept different ideas on this forum.
I have no problem with you so I am sad that you don't feel the same.
Peace to you.
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