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FORUM / RUGBY /  Prof John Lennox rocks

Prof John Lennox rocks

Started by Beeno1268 REPLIES2,809 VIEWS· 15 Sept 2014, 14:06
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sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
16 Sept 2014, 22:22
#121
16 Sept 2014, 22:22#121
Oimatey, I am glad that you see that everyone has faith in something. I would agree that believing in something like evolution (physical, mental and spiritual) instead of personal religion (catholic, muslim) does not does not make someone an atheist. 
I am also glad that the ark scenario you have mentioned does not have adult T-rex's on board. . It would have been a valid reason for a refund from the travel agent who organised the trip if my room was right next door to the  T-rexes!
oimatey
 
Status: Bok regular 
Posts: 1234RE: Prof John Lennox rocks
September 16, 2014, 19:29:33Posts: 1234 I doubt if there were full adult size T-Rex's on the ark.
Although one question about the Ark. Do you think that God would have killed nearly every animal in every species including humans, just to start again? 
Why not just kill humans with a disease if they are the guilty ones. I seem to remember from Sunday school that it said in the Bible that God was so angry that he said next time we would use Fire and not water and their would be no survivors. 
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
16 Sept 2014, 22:29
#122
16 Sept 2014, 22:29#122
While were are on the topic of the Ark, let us return to the Garden of Eden for a short while.
God Created Adam. Their is now one person in the world.God Created Ever. Their are now 2 people in the world.
Adam and Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit. 
Adam and Eve had 2 children. Cane and Abel. Their are now 4 people in the world.
Cane and Abel went to the village to get wives. Where did the village come from?
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
16 Sept 2014, 22:33
#123
16 Sept 2014, 22:33#123
God and the Devil in historical contexts are the same reality as concepts and Luther taught that God and the Devil both willed the same thing....was it in the Bondage of the Will this was discussed ? I can't remember. Having strokes does that to a brain, sorry    
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
16 Sept 2014, 22:51
#124
16 Sept 2014, 22:51#124
"I seem to remember from Sunday school that it said in the Bible that God was so angry that he said next time we would use Fire and not water and their would be no survivors." 
I can believe it. The old testament God used to get very angry indeed!
Sharkbok, I have a feeling you might enjoy this website: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html and some of the links from there. Some guy has taken the trouble of recording every one of God's kills in the Bible and comparing that to Satan's kill count. 
The score? God 2476633, Satan 10.


PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
16 Sept 2014, 23:10
#125
16 Sept 2014, 23:10#125
If the story of Gilgamesh were a Hollywood blockbuster and a while later the story of Noah came out as a separate Hollywood film you can bet your tiny balls there were would be a copyright infringement lawsuit soon to follow. 
Funny how the world population was a fraction of what it is today with far less stories being told generally, yet these two are so similar that even in today's terms you can see they from the same the source...Gilgamesh
Also strange how the culture most widely followed by the jews prior to them making their own god...was the exact that Epic of Gilgamesh came from.
mmm...do we need more proof?
COMPARISON OF GENESIS AND GILGAMESH                                           Genesis           Gilgamesh
Extent of floodGlobalGlobalCauseMan's wickednessMan's sinsIntended for whom?All mankindOne city & all mankindSenderYahwehAssembly of "gods"Name of heroNoahUtnapishtimHero's characterRighteousRighteousMeans of announcementDirect from GodIn a dreamOrdered to build boat?YesYesDid hero complain?YesYesHeight of boatSeveral stories (3)Several stories (6)Compartments inside?ManyManyDoorsOneOneWindowsAt least oneAt least oneOutside coatingPitchPitch
Shape of boatRectangularSquareHuman passengersFamily members onlyFamily & few othersOther passengersAll species of animalsAll species of animalsMeans of floodGround water & heavy rainHeavy rainDuration of floodLong (40 days & nights plus)Short (6 days & nights)Test to find landRelease of birdsRelease of birdsTypes of birdsRaven & three dovesDove, swallow, ravenArk landing spotMountain -- Mt. AraratMountain -- Mt. NisirSacrificed after flood?Yes, by NoahYes, by UtnapishtimBlessed after flood?YesYes
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
16 Sept 2014, 23:38
#126
16 Sept 2014, 23:38#126
 I bet Mozart has been to Gilgamesh......oh, we're not talking Restaurants ? Silly me  
OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
17 Sept 2014, 01:01
#127
17 Sept 2014, 01:01#127
Plum,
So the story of Gilgamesh supports the account of Genesis. In fact, Gilgamesh is only one story from over 200 different cultures throughout the world who have their own version of a cataclysmic flood either in their oral or written history. Genesis was written somewhere between 1435 and 1400 BC but who wrote it down first doesn't really matter as it would have been passed down orally before then - instead the point is why there would be such a widespread, world-wide historical tradition common amongst cultures who never met unless the event actually occurred.  
Rooi / Sharkbok,
I don't really have time to respond specifically to all your questions not that they're not important, but there are answers to your questions. Although I think those answers would only lead to more questions - haha.  I would refer you to icr.org as the best resource for a scientific approach to YEC. Their online videos are good, and their pamphlets and research are even more technical. 
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
17 Sept 2014, 01:13
#128
17 Sept 2014, 01:13#128
Oimatey, are you saying t hat it does not matter which god or religious system you go for. As long as you chose one?
Because my point was NOT that there was not a flood. It was that people should stop arguing the details around Noah's arc because it was derived from somewhere else. Somewhere totally removed from the god the old testament.
I guess my ultimate point is that the Judeo-Christian god is entirely fictitious.

LOL i'm done
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
17 Sept 2014, 02:37
#129
17 Sept 2014, 02:37#129
 There was a guy called Alaster Crowly.He was born in 1875 and I think his dad was a Plymouth brethren memebr.But his dad was a wierdo.He tried to get rid of all evil in his sons life.This on most occasions would be carried out with savage beatings.Untill one day when it took a turn for the worst.For more information feel free to read up about this individual or watch documentaries on Youtube about him.He was a student of ancient mysticism,Egyptology,hinduism,you name it he was it.But more to the point,this man went on to become the author of a book called The Book Of The Law.Manny believe this book to be the satanic bible.If you dont believe me,"Liber AL vel Legis, sub figura CCXX, as delivered by XCIII=418 to DCLXVI",that was the actual title.In this book written in and published in 1904 Crowly has one mission,"Do what thou wilt".This book has been the inspiration to many famous bands,like the Beatles who have Crowly on the front cover of Sargent Pepper.To keep it short,The Beatles is but one of many who endorsed his believes.Crowly was part of the new-age flower power movement.Crowly was the founder of this movement to be quite frank. In this book people are told to do what they want,how they want,where they want,with who and with what they want and not to care about their actions.It boasted in the act of debauchery,homosexuality,drug abuse and even went as far as to tell individuals that it was their duty to brake up marriages at all cost.The book had no morels.It preached chaos.Today,take a look around,turn on MTV and have a look at what you see.Google the word jugs and see what comes up on the search engine.Take a closer look,maybe at yourself at what you find entertaining.Maybe you like p-o-r-n.Maybe you are part of a swinging club,maybe you do crack,and believe in aliens,"another Crowly idea btw".The next time you laugh at a sexual joke degrading women that could even promote child abuse...ask yourself why?It was Crowly's inhibitions to create a world free from the ten commandments.So far I would say that to the western man he was very successful.Our entertainment is labeled with SNLV.Isnt it odd that sex outside of marriage is always a violent thing. Today the world is only concerned with pleasure.Seeking money,sex and fame.To be cool is all that matters.That makes me feel good so it must be ok.My friends like that so I will like that.My point is this:Long before most of us were born,the decision about our recklessness and the acceptance of the wrong idea as the right idea was made for us,with out our input. If you all really want to have a debate about if God exists or not based on science then lets us break even real quick.A lot of people have spent a lot of time through decades and even centuries to prove at all cost that there is no God.Most of the disciples were martyred.death by sawing,stoning and beheading.But the focus changed,from killing to keeping man preoccupied with nonsense.Things that dont matter.S-e-x ,drugs,money...pleasure.Funny,in Revelations it is written that in the final days "people will be seekers of pleasure rather then seekers of God"wow dont know about you Mr atheist but that sounds a lot like my generation AKA the modern era. The world does not believe in God because no one wants to be accountable for their wrong doing.The main reason science does not believe in Noah is because if they do then it means suddenly we cant just do what we want when we want ...or better said in Crowlys own words...."Do what thou wilt".Do what you want...Sin then stands accountable,before God.Isnt that why the flood took place in the first time.Because of the wickedness of man.By the way,to further justify this point,Peter asks Jesus,"How will we know when You will return.Jesus replies:You will see signs as it was like in the Days of Noah"Wickedness will thrive,justice and peace will be shunned. I look around and I see many things.Sex is selling every thing these days.Sex is so easily available.Like a product.the gift of marriage is sold,CIM=$40.OWO=$60...a full night $400.Drugs are becoming legal and more freely available.I mean really,is a war on terror really going to stop opium being grown in Afgahnistan.Nope its a multi Billion dollar trade industry.The reason p-o-r-n is legal i because it is a third of the US GDP.Gold,oil and drugs(lets see who is smart enough)Kids are not being disciplined anymore,in the UK spanking is illegal...LOLcheating is promoted.I read in Time magazine a year or so ago that "To not be divorced by age 35 as a stock broker in Wall street made you weird." In Genesis we are told that the Earth was void and with out form and that the spirit of the Lord was over the dark deepness...Then God spoke.The Hebrew used was tohu wa bohu,creation from nothing,bringing order to chaos.God has a wonderful way of bringing order to chaos.When ever I see or meet a person that just got saved/reborn/converted,the road is always one or bringing order to chaos.a life in turmoil.Broken people becoming vessels of value.drug addicts turning their lives around,marriages that are falling apart getting restored.Forgivenss wins the day...Hatred is removed(heart of stone)Order to chaos.god however does not wave a magic wond.Some problems are human problems like addictions.where the individual needs to make the choice himself about his behavior. Science is great,I love science,I am a 21st century man.I love medicine and the Internet and gadgets(ipods etc..)I love U2 and clothes and films...But I love God more.Science cannot heal the heart form hurt.Science can not restore broken marriages.Science can not stop us from dying.On that note,the subject of heaven and hell.For those who are fathers and mother as well.Take a look at your children,a good look,and decide if they deserve to go to hell.If you have two decide which one go's to hell...You would be outraged,right??How can I choose between my children which one gos to hell and which one gos to heaven??It is the exact same way that God feels and looks at all of us.I can not say if there is a hell.I am mortal man and these things are beyond me but I know this,God loves all of us very very very much. Decide for yourselves,but take this in to consideration.consideration. Crowly believed in God,Satan does as well,Hell is hot and eternity is long.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
17 Sept 2014, 02:56
#130
17 Sept 2014, 02:56#130
 Aleister Crowley ? Oooh.....best not talk about him ! 
I think you have over simplified him, FA !! 
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
17 Sept 2014, 02:59
#131
17 Sept 2014, 02:59#131
 I might have becs...but his legacy is one that is a lasting one.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
17 Sept 2014, 03:59
#132
17 Sept 2014, 03:59#132
 " The Wickedest Man in the World ", FA....get your Pentangle out !! 

They're slaughtering badgers on his estate right now actually, so you're right, his legacy does indeed live on  
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,294 posts
17 Sept 2014, 06:53
#133
17 Sept 2014, 06:53#133
Rooinek
 
Status: Bok regular 
Posts: 1625RE: Prof John Lennox rocks
September 16, 2014, 20:51:45"I seem to remember from Sunday school that it said in the Bible that God was so angry that he said next time we would use Fire and not water and their would be no survivors." 
I can believe it. The old testament God used to get very angry indeed!
Sharkbok, I have a feeling you might enjoy this website: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html and some of the links from there. Some guy has taken the trouble of recording every one of God's kills in the Bible and comparing that to Satan's kill count. 
The score? God 2476633, Satan 10.
@Roonek,
Yes that website is funny. Reminds me of this slapstick commedy staring Charlie Sheen

HotShots Top Kill Count in a movie
PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
17 Sept 2014, 09:04
#134
17 Sept 2014, 09:04#134
 "How will we know when You will return.Jesus replies:You will see signs as it was like in the Days of Noah Wickedness will thrive,justice and peace will be shunned. I look around and I see many things."

FA, if you think the world is a mess now, be happy you weren't alive in, for example, the middle ages. These so-called "signs" have been around for as long as man has been on this planet. We've been torturing and killing and destroying and whoring and warring for as long as we've been here. Life is much better, safer and more civilized now than it was in, for example, the middle ages. If you were alive back then and there was sattelite TV showing you all the worldwide action 24 hours a day you'd be just as convinced that all the signs are pointing to the end times being near.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
17 Sept 2014, 10:19
#135
17 Sept 2014, 10:19#135
 Arizona, you are obviously well informed on this subject and I'm glad to see this side of you. Strongs to you and your wife for the future! Hope you arrive safely in Arizona when you are done with the Army. BTW, why Arizona? Are your wife from there?
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Sept 2014, 11:20
#136
17 Sept 2014, 11:20#136
 Haven given the okas some to to reflect on matters I hope to proceed further today.To summarise what has been proven.Firstly the universe had abegining and once was not but now is. I showed how poor Stephen Hawking in his book the gfrand dewsign battles to try and prove the universe because of the law of gravity came from nothing!  I then showed via Lennox the triple contradiction in his statement.I then made mention of a book by Krauss - a Un iverse form nothing.Richard Dawkin was then quoted - In reply he said that, although he agreed this was a problematic position, he did indeed believe that the first particle arose spontaneously from nothing, because the alternative explanation – God -- was more incredible.
All seems lost for the atheists. But not so fast!!!Its ou rooitwit to the rescue. All he needs to do is write to Dawkin, Hawking and Krauss and explain why matter was always there.
I am sure they will be gobsmacked - unfortunatley at ou rooitiwts ignornace. Bwahahahhahaha . A tip rooitwit - dont embarrass yourself even further by trying to tell them about how the universe is expanding and how it will in future collapse again as it slows down and we will have another big bang etc etc. Fact is science has show that the expansion of the universe in terms of speed is accelarating.
Man is this a bad time to be an half baked atheist! BwahhaahhahahahahaKrauss expresses the atheistic position very well - What Krauss means to say is that he isn’t sympathetic to the idea that the cosmos is a creation, because that would entail a Creator: "I can’t prove that God doesn’t exist," says Krauss, "but I’d much rather live in a universe without
Real scinece oaks must of course be objective and hence the problem we have arrived at for atheists.How Dawkin and hawking and Krauss would love ou rooitwits version to be correct but unfortunately for the poor ateists science has progressed to understand it is not and that the biblical is correct. There was a begining.For Dawkin to say it was problematic is a vast understaement - it is fatal. So now all that is left is to dispose of the rotten  corpse of atheism. 
I need to explain further to the oaks just how rediculous the idea "becuase there isa law of gravity, the universe can and will create itslef out of nothing.We may have to leave behind ou warped DUD battling to understand why X can create X. We may have also to leave behind that scientific dinosaur ou rooitwit and leave him to pen his letter to the gentlemen mentioned so as to save atheism from oblivion. How thankful they will be to receive the solution to their problem from thsi eminent oak rooitwit. I will find some time to enlighten the oaks further.In the mean time it is clearly game set and match. The corpse of atheism is in the coffin and the nails are being driven in. 





PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
17 Sept 2014, 11:26
#137
17 Sept 2014, 11:26#137
And meanwhile Beeno, while you claim all is lost for atheism because some atheist named Flew converted, religiosity rates are still in freefall worldwide. But I know dealing in facts is not exactly a priority here.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
17 Sept 2014, 11:34
#138
17 Sept 2014, 11:34#138
Oimatey, I had a quick look at the link you put up and that icr.org website looks like another answersingenesis.org clone full of pseudoscience and unsubstantiated claptrap.

You know I respect your rugby views and I like you as a poster but I have to be honest here and I say I can't take your Young Earth theories seriously. If I had to ask you to read a book that would prove that the Tooth Fairy is real, would you waste your time reading it? No, you wouldn't and by the same token I wont waste anyone's time reading poppycock about the earth being only 6000 years old either. You might as well try to convince me that the earth is flat . . . it's equally laughable in my opinion.

Not trying to insult you or your beliefs but thanks for the link anyway, that kind of stuff gives me a good laugh. Would still like to know what the animals ate while they were stuck on the ark and I'd also love to know where all the water went to but I can understand your reluctance to debate these issues with someone who has as little respect for these Young Earth Creation fantasies as I do. Let's you and I rather stick to rugby!
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
17 Sept 2014, 11:35
#139
17 Sept 2014, 11:35#139
Pakie, he wasn't just any atheist, he was the world's leading atheist!

LMAO!
CL
ClaydogClub Pro691 posts
17 Sept 2014, 11:36
#140
17 Sept 2014, 11:36#140
 Beeno, because the beginnings of the universe are unclear I don't see how this means or proves the existence of a creator. The argument that there is no proof for anything else so it must have been God seems a leap of faith too far for me to jump.

DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
17 Sept 2014, 12:26
#141
17 Sept 2014, 12:26#141
 OOPS!
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
17 Sept 2014, 12:26
#142
17 Sept 2014, 12:26#142
 Claydog, no more a leap of faith than to believe there is no God (Atheism). Atheists supposedly have science as a measuring yard, but if that was so, they should rather be agnostic. 
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
17 Sept 2014, 12:37
#143
17 Sept 2014, 12:37#143
The Christian Apologist view on much that were discussed on this thread: Link
Oimatey, feel free to have a look there. Lots of articles and subjects.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Sept 2014, 12:50
#144
17 Sept 2014, 12:50#144
 So here we go oaks. God or the laws of physics is the topic so please all sit up straight stop scratching yourself and engage whatever brain cells you might have. Now pay close attention oaks. It’s time for the boys to drop out as this involves a little thought

A supernatural being or God is an agent who DOES SOMETHING.  In the case of the God of the bible, He is a personal agency. Dismissing such an agent Hawking ascribes creative power to physical law; BUT physical law is NOT and agent.

Hawking is making a classic category mistake by confusing two entirely different kinds of entity: physical law and personal agency. God is an explanation of the Universe, but not the same type of explanation as that which is given to physics.

To help the oaks Lennox gives an illustration.

We replace the Universe by a jet engine and then are asked to explain it. Shall we account for it by mentioning the PERSONAL  AGENCY  of its inventor, Sir Frank Whittle? OR shall we follow Hawking: dismiss the personal agency, and explain the jet engine by saying it arose naturally from physical law. (I trust some of the oaks see how ridiculous that would be?)

IT IS CLEARLY NONSENSICAL TO ASK PEOLE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN FRANK WHITTLE AND SCIENCE AS AN EXPANATION FOR THE JET ENGINE. It is NOT either or. We need both levels of explanation in order to give a complete description. It is also obvious that the scientific explanation neither conflicts nor competes against the agent explanation.

God does not conflict or compete with the laws of physics as an explanation. God is actually the ground of all explanation, in the sense that He is the CAUSE in the first place of there being a world for the laws of physics to describe (And what brilliance on mind is on display says Beeno).

Sir Isaac Newton, a previous holder of the Lucasian Chair at Cambridge did not make Hawking’s category mistake when he DISCOVERED  his law of gravitation. Newton did not say: “Now I have the law of gravity, I don’t need God”. What he did was to write Principia Mathematica, the most famous book in the history of science,  expressing  the hope that it would “persuade THINKING THE THINKING MAN” to believe in God. (No God of the gaps nonsense from Newton oaks).

NOW PLEASE NOTE OAKS:

The laws of physics can explain how the jet engine works, BUT NOT HOW IT CAME TO EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE.  IT IS SELF EVIDENT THAT THE LAWS OF PHYSICS COULD NOT HAVE CREATED A JET ENGINE ON THE OWN. TRHAT TASK NEEDED INTELLIGENCE, IMAGINATION, AND THE SCIENTIFIC CREATVITY OF WHITTLE. Indeed, even the laws of physics plus Frank Whittle WERE NOT SUFFICIENT TO PRODUCE  A  JET ENGINE. There also needed to be some material that whittle could use. MATTER MAY BE HUMBLE STUFF, BUT LAWS CANNOT CREATE IT.

Let’s clear up another matter

Science asks the how questions: how does the jet engine work? It also asks the why question regarding FUNCTION: why is this pipe here. BUT it does not ask the why of PURPOSE: why was the jet engine built. What is important here is that Sir Frank Whittle does not appear in the scientific account. To quote Laplace the scientific account has “no need of that hypothesis” Clearly, however, it would be ridiculous to deduce from this that Whittle did not exist.  HE IS THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION : WHY DOES THE JET ENGINE EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE?

SOME SCIENTISTS FAIL TO SEE THAT SCIENCE DOES NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION AS TO WHY SOME THING EXISTS RATHER THAN NOTHING FOR THE SIMPLE REASON SCIENCE (Not the only form of knowledge) cannot answer that question.

They also fail to see that by assumption it is their atheist world view , NOT science as such, that excludes God.

Now watch this oaks

The scientists did not put the universe there. But neither did their theories, nor the laws of mathematical physics.

Hawking claims that all that is necessary to create the universe is the law of gravity. When asked where gravity came from, he answered “M-Theory”. However to say that a theory or physical law could bring the universe( or anything at all for that matter) into existence is to misunderstand WHAT THEORY AND LAWS ARE

Scientists EXPECT (note that oaks) to develop theories involving mathematical laws TO DESCRIBE NATURAL PHENOMENA, WHICH ENABLE THEM TO MAKE PREDICTIONS ; AND THEY HAVE DONE SO WITH SPECTACULAR SUCCESS. However, on their OWN, the theories and laws cannot even cause anything, let alone create it

Hawking gives the example of physical law as the sun rising is the east every day. This law however does not create the sun. The law is descriptive and predictive. Similarly Newton’s law of gravity does not create gravity –OR THE MATTER ON WHICH GRAVITY ACTS.

The laws of physics are not only incapable of creating anything; they cannot even cause anything to happen. For instance Newton’s celebrated laws of motion never caused a pool ball to race across the green baize table. That can only be done by people using a pool cue. The laws enable us to analysis the motion, and to map the trajectory of the balls movement in the future (provided nothing external interferes) BUT THEY ARE POWERLESS TO MOVE THE BALL, LET ALONE BRING IT INTO EXISTENCE

CRASH GOES STEPHEN HAKWING!

CL
ClaydogClub Pro691 posts
17 Sept 2014, 12:51
#145
17 Sept 2014, 12:51#145
 Seems way further to me Draad. I think the trade off for a developed brain is the need  to believe we have a higher purpose or are here for a reason but I just don't see it. This is where the belief in a creator comes from and I don't share that need. Then to believe that creator is the one from an ancient text that has been rewritten and altered time and time again to suit one group or another is for me as stated, a leap too far.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Sept 2014, 12:57
#146
17 Sept 2014, 12:57#146
  The world of strict naturalism, in which clever mathematical laws all by themselvesbring the universe and life into existence is pure (science) fiction. Theories and laws do not bring matter/energy into existence. The view that nevertheless they SOMEHOW, have that capacity seems a rather desperate refuge from the other alternate possibility implied by Hawking’s question cited above: “or does it need a Creator”


Now oaks I have to give you Einsteins view on all this. Ou Sharkbok will again be suprised.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Sept 2014, 13:26
#147
17 Sept 2014, 13:26#147
 He is a word to you form Albert Einstein oaks.

The very fact that those laws can be mathematically formulated was for Einstein a constant source of amazement that pointed beyond the physical universe. Einstein wrote “Everyone who is seriously engaged in the pursuit of science becomes CONVINCED that the laws of nature MANIFEST THE EXISTENCE OF A SPIRIT VASTLY SUPERIOR TO THAT OF MEN, AND ONE IN THE FACE OF WHICH WE WITH OUR MODEST POWERS MUST FEEL HUMBLE”.

Of course no need for ou rooitwtit to be humble. Like the oak in South America he thinks Einstein is another drooling halfwit like Beeno.  Bwahahahahhahahahaahha

Seeing that the going is so good why should we stop here oaks!

 

Hawking has signally failed to answer the central question: why there is something rather than nothing. (But ou rooitwit is rushing to the rescue so perhaps all is not lost – bwahahahhahahaha - Krauss of course flopped outrageously in his book A universe from nothing)

Hawking says that the existence of gravity means the creation of the universe was inevitable. But how did gravity come to exist in the first place? What was the creative force behind its birth. Who put it there, with all its properties and potential for mathematical description in terms of law.

Similarly (PLEASE NOTE THIS OAKS) when Hawking argues in support of his support of SPONTANEOUS CREATION (Pity we lost of rooitwit!), that it was only necessary for “the blue touch paper” to be lit to “set the universe going”, I am tempted to ask: where did this blue touch paper come from? It is clearly not part of the Universe, if it set the universe going. SO WHO LIT IT, IN THE SENSE OF ULTIMATE causation , if not GOD.

Allan Sandage, widely regarded as the father of modern astronomy, discoverer of quasars and winner of the Crafoord Prize( astronomy’s equivalent of the Nobel prize), is in no doubt as to his answer: “ I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be an organising principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence – why there is something rather than nothing.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Sept 2014, 13:35
#148
17 Sept 2014, 13:35#148
 Pakie do you know that on CNN they were talking about how in China there could soon be more Christains than communists - the atheistic communists are of course very worried and persecute the Church. The Church continues to grow. Some dead sterile churches in the west have falling numbers thankfully but bible believing churches are flourishing.
I do notice however the atheists cannot refute the stuff I have been saying re Hawkings and company.Its either swoosh over their heads or the cannot mount a rebuttal of the points. I guess if Dawkin, Hawking and Krauss cant suceed they know they are doomed to failure.Its time for a funeral - the rotten corpse of atheism!



BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Sept 2014, 13:55
#149
17 Sept 2014, 13:55#149
anybody prepared to answere the material and question that have been posed.

Do you agree with Hawking? If so why is the critique wrong.I think though it is game set and match. If Hawking, Krauss and Dawkin cant give any coherentexplanation I can hardly expect the oaks here to.
What is astonshing is how abjectly Hawking failed in terms of logic. But his embacing of scientism (the view that science is the only way to truth) led to his ignoring the rigour of logic.However although Hawking pronounces philosphy as being dead Lennox points out that for or any scientist to disparage philosopy on the one hand, and then at once adopt a self contractictory philosophical stance on the other is not the wisest thing to do.Hahahahahahahha`
Read Romans Chapter 1 versus 18 to 32 Professing themselves to be wise they became fools. There is no greater fool than the atheist. The fool has said in his heart there is no God. Amen!!
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
17 Sept 2014, 14:14
#150
17 Sept 2014, 14:14#150
Beans, if it is impossible for something to come from nothing, where did God come from?
FO
ForeverArizonaClub Pro580 posts
17 Sept 2014, 14:18
#151
17 Sept 2014, 14:18#151
 #DBDraad I wouldnt call myself well informed.The subject is broad and contains many facets.I grew up in the Transvaal area for most of my childhood.I was far removed from a lot untill very late in my teens to be honest.The NG kerk was our church and I did not really question if there was a God or not...It didnt matter to me.I wanted to play rugby and was interested in bikes and girls lol.We then when I was 14 or so moved to Kwazulu-Natal,Maritzburg where we lived on a farm as my dad was in forestry.I then got more influenced by western culture if it could be labeled as that.Long story short,it wasnt until I came to England in 2004 that I heard of Darwin and really got challenged in my faith about what I believe.It was then that I got reading about the matter.Manny books lol.The best one for me was the Genesis Enigma.But at the end of the day,my believes were set by then.I thought all these people were crazy.How could anyone not believe,but they had their right to not believing.However the biggest denominating factor is that my faith gives people hope.The "no God" movement is happy to tell people that there is no God and life is meaningless. Kate Westburn...Kate was born in Green Valley Arizona.My father in law Jeremy has a horse ranch there with some catle.She wanted to travel after she finished her degree in accounting and therefore came to Europe and England was her final stop.At the time she was actually dating another guy in the army that I knew....LOLAfter my first wife passed away in a car acident,I wasnt in the mood for relationship and I dont know why but we just clicked.She invited me to dinner and the rest is history.LOL Btw,the other guy he wasnt that upset.So you see we both have no family here in the UK. My brother lives in Durban Pinetown,with my mum.I see them once a year or so.Kate has her family in Green Valley and she would like to live in the US.Thats why its Arizona.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
17 Sept 2014, 14:30
#152
17 Sept 2014, 14:30#152
Do you know about Crowley's work in WW1 and 2, FA ?  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Sept 2014, 14:42
#153
17 Sept 2014, 14:42#153
 Pakie GOd is eternal and in fact logic dictates there has to be something eteranl for us to exists.As logicians have said if you have to keep going back to first cause for infinity nothing would exist.
The only expalnation that we are here is that there is something eternal that is the first cause. 

Suppose I ask you to loan me a certain book, but you say: ‘I don’t have a copy right now, but I’ll ask my friend to lend me his copy and then I’ll lend it to you.’ Suppose your friend says the same thing to you, and so on. Two things are clear. First, if the process of asking to borrow the book goes on ad infinitum, I’ll never get the book. Second, if I get the book, the process that led to me getting it can’t have gone onad infinitum. Somewhere down the line of requests to borrow the book, someonehad the book without having to borrow it. Likewise, argues Richard Purtill, consider any contingent reality:

the same two principles apply. If the process of everything getting its existence from something else went on to infinity, then the thing in question would never [have] existence. And if the thing has ... existence then the process hasn’t gone on to infinity. There was something that had existence without having to receive it from something else…[16]

A necessary being explaining all physical reality can’t itself be a physical reality. The only remaining possibilities are an abstract object or an immaterial mind. But abstract objects (even granting their existence) are by definition causally impotent. Therefore, the explanation of the physical universe is a necessarily existent, transcendent mind.

Got it Pakie?

PA
PakieCaptain17,321 posts
17 Sept 2014, 14:47
#154
17 Sept 2014, 14:47#154
"Pakie do you know that on CNN they were talking about how in China there could soon be more Christains than communists - the atheistic communists are of course very worried and persecute the Church."

What they actually said on CNN is that China may have the largest Christian population in the world by 2030. Which is not surprising, since they have the largest overall population in the world (more than the whole of Africa, and 4x more than the USA).

There is a considerable growth in Christianity in China, but it doesn't surprise me that you use China as an example because that's one of very few countries where religion is actually growing. Countries like Ireland, Switzerland, France, South Africa, the US and Canada have all registered drops in religiosity between 10% and 23% over the last 7 years. China is still the least religious country in the world despite the increased interest in Christianity.

Interestingly, the countries with the highest religiosity rates in the world include Ghana, Nigeria, Armenia, Iraq, Kenya, Pakistan, Colombia and India. The lowest include France, China, Japan, Sweden, Australia, Netherlands, Ireland and Canada. I know which category I'd take my chances on given a blind choice to pick a new home country from one of them.

But this is all academic. China can be 100% Christian for all I care by 2030. People should do and believe what makes them happy. It's people like you who sanctimoniously wave their finger in other people's faces that spoil the party for everyone.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Sept 2014, 14:48
#155
17 Sept 2014, 14:48#155
 Pakie GOd is eternal and in fact logic dictates there has to be something eteranl for us to exists.As logicians have said if you have to keep going back to first cause for infinity nothing would exist.
The only expalnation that we are here is that there is something eternal that is the first cause. 

Suppose I ask you to loan me a certain book, but you say: ‘I don’t have a copy right now, but I’ll ask my friend to lend me his copy and then I’ll lend it to you.’ Suppose your friend says the same thing to you, and so on. Two things are clear. First, if the process of asking to borrow the book goes on ad infinitum, I’ll never get the book. Second, if I get the book, the process that led to me getting it can’t have gone onad infinitum. Somewhere down the line of requests to borrow the book, someonehad the book without having to borrow it. Likewise, argues Richard Purtill, consider any contingent reality:

the same two principles apply. If the process of everything getting its existence from something else went on to infinity, then the thing in question would never [have] existence. And if the thing has ... existence then the process hasn’t gone on to infinity. There was something that had existence without having to receive it from something else…[16]

A necessary being explaining all physical reality can’t itself be a physical reality. The only remaining possibilities are an abstract object or an immaterial mind. But abstract objects (even granting their existence) are by definition causally impotent. Therefore, the explanation of the physical universe is a necessarily existent, transcendent mind.

Got it Pakie?

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
17 Sept 2014, 14:51
#156
17 Sept 2014, 14:51#156
Beans, your explanation can basically be used to explain an eternal universe as well as an eternal God. It is neither here nor there. I guess this whole argument reaches the point where science and philosophy meet, and that is where it all becomes hazy. 
I think I need to make myself clear here, I don't know the answer, but I am seeking it out. So this is not a judgement on my part.  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Sept 2014, 14:55
#157
17 Sept 2014, 14:55#157
The reason the West is more advanced with better justcie systemsn and sytems of goivernace is precisly because underpining it until very recently were Christian values. Righteousness exalteth a nation. even now many christians valuesare still in place although the source might not be acknowleged.
The West is sliding now because it is often walking away from these values with abortions etc etc. Hence the financial crises etc.
That question of who created God is hilarious - how daft does one get. I hope you are now on the right track!! 

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
17 Sept 2014, 14:55
#158
17 Sept 2014, 14:55#158
"Fact is science has show that the expansion of the universe in terms of speed is accelarating"
Yes Beeno. Does this mean that because it is accelerating now that it is incapable of slowing down? MMM...how do explosions normally work? As far as i can tell it's like this. Zero movement, acceleration, deceleration, zero movement. 
Hawking says that the existence of gravity means the creation of the universe was inevitable. But how did gravity come to exist in the first place? What was the creative force behind its birth. Who put it there, with all its properties and potential for mathematical description in terms of law.

Again, means nothing. The big bang itself may have created the laws of the current universe. It's not proof of god. Remember how one of the main arguments against evolution was the existence of an eye. The fact that it was so clear to all creationist that an eye would be totally useless until it was a complete eye. In other words no advantageous preceding steps. Yeah, today you can watch kids cartoon on youtube that explains how every single preceding step was a massive advantage and exactly how the eye evolved. So the who put it there, who made it, who designed it and who willed it question is running out of grey areas to lean because science is now and will forever be pushing the veil further and further back until there is no more gap for a fictitious god to hide in.
As for Einstein, he was perplexed by the measurement problem too...but this is no proof of god. He is quoted as saying that "I like to believe the moon is there, even when i'm not looking at it."
And again, are we saying that because Einstein was open to the possibility of a creator that there must be a god?  
Scientists EXPECT (note that oaks) to develop theories involving mathematical laws TO DESCRIBE NATURAL PHENOMENA, WHICH ENABLE THEM TO MAKE PREDICTIONS ; AND THEY HAVE DONE SO WITH SPECTACULAR SUCCESS. However, on their OWN, the theories and laws cannot even cause anything, let alone create it

The above is simply a clear failure to understand numerous aspects of science. Again, i implore you to look up The Game of Life.
Do you agree with Hawking? If so why is the critique wrong.I think though it is game set and match. If Hawking, Krauss and Dawkin cant give any coherent explanation I can hardly expect the oaks here to.
Sorry Beeno but they have given pretty clear explanations that cover a lot of what you have been talking about. You have simply misinterpreted them.
BUT it does not ask the why of PURPOSE: why was the jet engine built.

The reason it does not ask what the purpose of things are is simply because there has never been a single shred of evidence as to there being a purpose. NOT ONE!
But lets do a count and you will find that science has given us enormous understanding of the universe. Hey that keyboard you are typing on? The screen that you are reading this on? That fact that you know black holes exist. The list of positives science has contributed is so large that it's almost scary. What has god given us? Really, prove it?
Tell us all Beeno, two things
1) Do you hold god to the same high standard of scrutiny that you hold scientists to?If so do explain to us what your method is.
2) Where is your proof...or at least your very good theory for the existence of god?
Ultimately there is an enormous double standard present in just about everything you have put on here. You have to apply the same parameters to both ends of an argument, not just one. Literally the only proof you have, does actually not qualify as a proof. Yes i'm talking about the bible.
But sure, give us proof bud and then we can start to weigh your ACTUAL evidence against scientific evidence and continue on.
Failing that, you will just have to admit that all you have is faith and your best bet is to try and disprove everything else. Makes sense actually. R eligion has never managed to stay afloat on it's own without dragging rationality down so as to prop itself up.
BE
becsPro4,378 posts
17 Sept 2014, 15:00
#159
17 Sept 2014, 15:00#159
You forgot to mention Religion thrives on fear.......  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
17 Sept 2014, 15:02
#160
17 Sept 2014, 15:02#160
Pakie face the facts square on. I have posted them here so the hatters thinking there is no God would see the evidence and reconsider their worldview.Man we havent even touched on the incredible intelligence on display in the universe.
Here I have given unaswerable arguments that the Universe could not possible create itself out of nothing. Neither can the law of gravity. 
Clearly the atheistic view cannot be sustained any longer. Where is there  any confusion. Nowhere.There is only one logical conclusion that science permits -In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.End of
 
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