Rapports Top 30 Boks (IMPROVED)

Willemse and his incredible stepping to nowhere...

Really? Watson, Murray, Lambie, JJ (better than Gerber), Kriel better than Am, Spencer the best 10 in the world, Goosen the best since Naas, and your long Christmas lists of "class acts" such as Notshe and Mujati. Saffex, the more I think about this, the more I realize you are crazier than Mike. 

Willemse is not a top 100 player in world rugby. It's that simple. Arendse is a man who can run fast in open space. He is a lot like Nokwe in that regard, though Nokwe was a much more rounded player. No lies are needed. Imagine picking Watson over prime Schalk because Watson was a better fetcher! You are my favourite source of endorphines 

Back to Morne….answer the question. How can a useless flyhalf be the pivot for 3 Super Rugby titles, 2 Lions wins  and a Trinations.

No dodging….no swearing Clever, just provide a logic for how that happens.

I must say Dave that Watson pick was a stinker!

Here are the plain facts:

1. Under 21 World Cup Champion
2. Super Rugby Champion (x3)
3. Currie Cup Champion (x3)
4. Top 14 Champion
5. Lions Tour Champion (x2)
6. European Challenge Cup Champion

1. World record for most points scored by a player who has scored all their team's points (31).
2. Most points scored against New Zealand (31) in a single test
3. South African record for penalties in a test (8)
4. All of the above records achieved with his 31 points scored in the Tri Nations 2009 match against the All Blacks in Durban on 1 Aug 09
5. South African record for most points in a test against Australia.
6. Fastest 100 points by a Springbok (8 test matches, 3 as replacement)
7. Fastest 200 points by a Springbok (16 test matches)
8. Fastest 300 points by a Springbok (24 test matches)
9. Fastest 400 points by a Springbok (33 test matches)
10. Fastest 500 points by a Springbok (43 test matches)
11. Fastest 600 points by a Springbok (50 test matches)
12. Fastest 700 points by a Springbok (62 test matches)
13. Most drop-goals in a Super Rugby season (11).
14. Most points scored against the All Blacks for a Springbok (31).
15. Most points in a Tri Nations match (31).
16. Most drop goals in a Super Rugby game (4) (in the 2009 Super 14 semifinal against the Crusaders)
17. Most drop goals in Super Rugby (25)
18. Most drop goals in a Super Rugby season (11 in 2009)
19. Most penalties in a Super Rugby season (51 in 2010)
20. Most points in a Super Rugby season (263) – Beating Dan Carter's record of 221 set in 2006.
21. Most points by a Bulls player in Super Rugby history (1 467)
22. Most points by a South African and first South African to reach 1 000 points in Super Rugby (1 467)

Morné you doughnut! 

Morné is the most successful South African 10 of all time, and that's a fact that will likely outlive you. That's a sobering thought. 

Watson spent much of his time clogging up the fringes and getting in the way. He was too focused on being the main man to be doing the work on the ground. He was a terrible loosie. He failed as early as 2007 against Samoa in a game that was perfect for a fetcher. 

Why do you have such a strong aversion to the truth? What the heck happened in your life to cause this? You must be such an angry and unfulfilled little fellow. I feel quite bad for you. You get so worked up that I wonder if I prompted you to kick your dog, or something worse. 

"All things considered I’d still have selected Schalk at 6 ahead of Watson"

That's not the way I remember it! 

l'Grande Merde

Lets explain something to you idiot.   Morne played in 68 tests - he managed to score 8 (Eight) tries.    Reason - he near to  never attacked the gain line and was a complete flop in backline play - his only contribution was through kicking at goal.   He was often found to miss penalty line kicks as well.   The long list of point achievements came from kicking at goal the rest of his contribution in tests was near to zero or negative.   I can remember him scoring a try in 2013 against Samoa when the commentator said - that it was an extremely rare occurrence.             

Morne never played in the Under 20 team for SA.   Before the Under 20 format there used to be an Under 21 series.   Morne did play in the final in that series  in Argentina and despite his BS performance - he missed every kick at goal  bar 1 try conversion - and was useless in the rest of the game - the Springboks Juniors won the trophy.   The game was broadcasted and I still remember that a key players in that game were Delport and especially Pienaar - who made sure the backline functioned properly by frequently passing the ball to the inside center missing Morne completely after the latter repeatedly took bad decisions.   It was a fairly narrow win because of Morne's poor performance.   Even at Under 21 level he was a flop.   

You referred above to trophies won - the question remains how many of those trophies were won despite Morne being playing at flyhalf?    Even in the 2009 Lions series - Morne was never in the starting line-up - he came from the bench and converted a  penalty that ended up helping the Springboks to finally win the series.   Incidentally that was his only contribution in that series.   

All Frans Steyn's achievements were prior to 2009 - when he left to play for Racing Metro in Paris.   In France he suffered from the effects of his constant attacking the French food supply chain.   In the end he was useless and his contract was not renewed.   When he returned from France in 2012 he was grossly overweight  - he weighed 118 kgs.  He was so fat he deserved to be called Fat Fransie 

His huge stomach slowed down his pace and he was never any good in the few tests he played in 2012 - after that year he never played for the Springboks again until some bench appearances in the 2019 WC series.    He flopped in 2013 at center exactly because of deficiency in pace and was dropped from the Sharks team because he was useless. It must be mentioned that after his return from France in 2012 he was signed up  by SA Rugby on a 3 year contract  lapsing in 2015 and SA Rugby refused to renew his contract.    The Sharks - for whom he played during 2012 to 2015 refused to sign a contract with him and he went off to play rugby in Japan.     

"Morne played in 102 tests - he managed to score 8 (Eight) tries."

Look at how Mike attempts to deceive the rest of the board. Morné played in 102 tests? Inside of the mind of Mike, he realises he has a problem. "How cans we make the precious look bad?"... then a Grinch like smile makes its way across his jaded old face like the ground cracking in a drought. He'll increase the number of tests to make the try count look worse. However, that creates other problems he hadn't considered. Morné's try ratio wouldn't be the impressive 11.8 if he truly did play 102 tests, it would be 0.1. This laughable gaff reveals how deceptive Mike is, and also how sloppy he is. Morné played in 68 tests. Pollard has himself played in 65 tests. Interestingly, Pollard was to be the man who was the better try threat . Time has shown that to be false. Eat your humble pie Mr Clever, you earned it.

Listen dim idiot - when a flyhalf -

*    does not attack the gain line;

*    cannot get the backline to attack; and 

*    kick away balls  aimlessly.

his name is Morne Steyn.    He is by some distance the worst flyhalf I have seen playing for the Springboks  - because he had no game plan.   

Mike lies in almost every post. He berates Morne for not scoring enough tries, but defends Dud Allende to the hilt. 

So here are the facts. Morne played in 70 tests but was often used as a reserve in later years….13 times. So he played in 57 full tests.

Dud Allende played in 68 tests, and was only used as a reserve 8 times. So he played in 60 full tests.

In 57 full tests Morne scored 9 tries….in 60 full tests Dud Allende an inside centre some call the best in the game scored 8 tries.

Morne clearly has a better strike rate than Dud Allende. So I’ll accept either answer. Either Morne is a fine attacking flyhalf or Dud Allende is the most toothless 12 we have had this century.

Here's your answer: 

https://www.ruckersforum.com/forum/deus-ex-lemur/some-centre-stats--/41023

So, he is bottom of the pile for a good list of great centres. How much lower if we added a few more recent All Blacks into the mix? Damian is rather pitiful. I thought the Lambie myth was extreme, but Damian has been a regular for the better part of a decade. What a sad thought that is!

cannot get the backline to attack; and 

Actually, the last good attacking Bok side was the Meyer Boks side, before he buckled to media pressure by selecting Damian, Lambie and Reinach et al. Though to his credit, Fran did pull out of the WC just before the start of the tournament, Jean was injured and Flip missed the tournament through injury. But still, that was the last good Bok side, and the last quality attacking Bok side. Morné was pulling the strings expertly. We don't have half backs who can pass like that anymore. The anticipation and composure of Morné was far ahead of these pretenders. There was a cerebral maturity to his game.

@Saffex: In 2008, you were part of the angry horde who wanted Watson to replace Schalk. That's a fact. I doubt that I'm the only one who remembers that. 

Mozart

Here is Morne Steyns test stats:

Born: July 11, 1986 in Bellville, Cape Town

Tests: 68 (started – 53, substitute – 15)

Points scored: 742

Tries: 8

So he rarely attacked the gain line and was a dead loss when it came to defense.   He could kick at goal - that was his only virtue.    He could not get the backline to play attacking rugby.   He was so poor and predictable that nobody ever bother to defend against him.   He stood still so deep in the pocket to receive balls and was utterly predictable so defenders ignored him - they went for the center who had to cope with to or three defenders - and the wing s fell back to cover his down-field kicking which were in the main inaccurate and aimless.

As pivot he was largely responsible for the dead backline rugby situation the Springboks used especially when he was flyhalf.   His hospital passing game left the recpient in a situation where he had to face two or three defenders.   His main idea was aways to kick balls and the wings fell back to get balls and counter-attack.   In case of his kicks out-of-hand  the opposition wigs fell back - collected the abll and counter-attacked.

If Morne was any good how the hell was he used as bench flyhalf after Stade F Francais made the poor decision to contract him - nobody wanted him and in the end he came back to SA together with Meyer after the latter was fired by the Cub and sent Morne packing.   A person who failed on Club level in France was according to you a top Springbok player?   Morne was plain and simple useless - live with it.   

Your rugby knowledge is so deficient you do not even understand the difference between a flyhalf and an inside center                

"So he rarely attacked the gain line and was a dead loss when it came to defense."

Do tell us how you arrived at that conclusion given that Morné has proven to have a higher strike rate than Pretorius, Lambie, Goosen, Pollard, Jantjies, Hougaard, Van Straaten, Honiball, Botha, James, van der Westhuyzen, Pienaar, F Steyn (10)? He ended his career with over 80% of his tackles made. He excels in all that he did, and his distribution is well ahead of all the players mentioned. Your assertions simply do not carry any weight. Also, as we saw under Meyer, the ball had a wider spread across the team when Morné was at 10. Game, set, and match. 

“So he rarely attacked the gain line”….plucked out of thin air. 

"Morné is the most successful South African 10 of all time"

Yep, whether you like him or not, this is spot on

Don't let any hard cold facts spoil a good argument....

"Morné is the most successful South African 10 of all time"

Really? Of all time?

How exactly are you lot measuring "most successful"? Win/loss ratio? Seems the most sensible. Let's see . . .

Morne Steyn's win/loss ratio was 64.7%

Naas Botha's ratio was 67.8%

Bennie Osler - 70.5%

Piet Visagie - 72%

Henry Honiball - 74%

So if you're basing this on win/loss ratio then you're just plain wrong.

I suspect most of you Morne Steyn fanboys are simply stating that because Morne Steyn has played the most tests as a flyhalf (and therefore also scored the most points and the most wins) that makes him the most successful.

Well yes, I concede that if that's your only criterium then he is the "most successful" but you'd have to be a rugby noob not to consider a lot of other factors.

The era that he played in. Morne Steyn played 68 tests compared to Bennie Osler's 17. Does that mean Morne was automatically the better or more successful player?

His impact on the game plan. When Naas Botha was playing, the Springboks played a territorial kicking game to keep Naas in range for penalties and drop kicks. When Henry Honiball was playing, the Springboks hardly kicked at all and challenged the gain line immediately. Morne Steyn never had that kind of impact. His place kicking may have been as good or even better than Naas's, but he didn't have the same genius when kicking out of hand to the extent that you'd build a game plan around him. Would you?

Injuries and opportunities. It goes without saying that someone like Naas Botha had fewer opportunities during the apartheid era, but what he achieved with the fewer opportunities he had make Morne look pretty mediocre. Same with Henry Honiball. I think even the Morne fanboys will concede that Lem was a much more physical player than MS and because of this, he sadly picked up critical injuries at the worst possible moments in his career . . . in 1995 just before the RWC and in 1999 when he was ruled out of the quarterfinal of the RWC through injury and - as fate would have it - the rest of the tournament (apart from the 3rd place playoff). What injuries or circumstances of MS can compare with what Naas and Lem went through?

Players like Bennie Osler, Piet Visagie and Naas Botha were automatic choices. You were just looking for a bench cover when those guys were playing rugby. There was never any doubt. Can't say the same about Morne. He shared duties with Pat Lambie, Handre Pollard, Frans Steyn, Butch James, Elton Jantjies, Damian Willemse and probably a few others I'm forgetting.  

Don't let any hard cold facts spoil a good argument . . .

PS For the record, I've never been a particularly huge fan of Morne Steyn's but I'm not nearly as stupid as ou Maaik and others who berate him for being a talentless place kicker. He was tough as nails, he had ball skills and he was a brave defender. He is unquestionably a great Springbok flyhalf . . . just not the best. Not even close.

"PS For the record, I've never been a particularly huge fan of Morne Steyn's but I'm not nearly as stupid as ou Maaik and others who berate him for being a talentless place kicker. He was tough as nails, he had ball skills and he was a brave defender. He is unquestionably a great Springbok flyhalf . . . just not the best. Not even close."

Fair enough, each to their own, and that was a very good analysis you made here

Personally, I am going on his overall career achievements at provincial and Springbok level, nothing more.... including coming back and winning the 2nd Lions series with another pressure kick..... both series kicks were just massive BMT moments, and only a small part of his long outstanding career.... but as I said, each to their own..

So if you're basing this on win/loss ratio then you're just plain wrong.

No, you are basing "this" on win/loss ratio; a team statistic. However, when it comes down to it, Morné's teams win more silverware. I'd like to see an explanation for why he cannot be the most successful despite being the most highly decorated player South Africa has ever produced. Then of course, his personal statistics reflect the fact that he is a key contributor to that success - as already posted above; I suppose reading isn't your strong point. 

Don't let any hard cold facts spoil a good argument . . .

What facts? You've made no serious attempt at a retort. 

Honiball was an overrated player. More physical? Maybe, was he more physical than Butch James? Absolutely not. So what's the point in bringing Honiball into the conversation? He achieved so much less, and contributed so much less on the field. Given the level of Morné's success, there can be no serious comparison between the two for they do not compare at all. Morné was the more complete player. But then you did back Pretorius over Butch in 2007, and you also backed Lambie over Morné and Pollard. You don't have a history of making good calls. Who could forget Notshe, the all time great Bok. 

"Honiball was an overrated player. More physical? Maybe, was he more physical than Butch James? Absolutely not"

Agreed, d efinitely not, but Lem was honestly a legend to me....but I will still always rate Morne as number 1

"Then of course, his personal statistics reflect the fact that he is a key contributor to that success - as already posted above"

100% agree.....