Rapports Top 30 Boks (IMPROVED)

Morné is statistically and factually the best Bok 10 since readmission on defence. Much better than Naas. The worst defenders, who were dragged around like ragdolls and run over, were Goosen and Lambie. Morné had an immense pass, as good as Du Preez. He amplified the threat of good running and Willie was very much more effective when playing in tandem with Morné. We don't have half backs who can distribute like that right now. Morné is the most successful Bok 10, and after all those years of criticising him, all of the facts prove his critics wrong. It's very satisfying rubbing your nose in it. 

I've never claimed Henry Honiball was the greatest. He was my favourite. There's a difference.

Having said that . . . a list of the top 30 Springboks since readmission that excludes Lem is already so lacking in credibility that I didn't even look at it much. Is Morne there? Hang on . . . no, he didn't crack it either. Hmmm . . .

I'm always very happy when Doos XL has the polar opposite view to mine on a player. I'd be worried if he didn't.

"Morné is the most successful South African  10 of all time"

This statement is 100% true, which is exactly why I agreed to it.....unless someone here can post another player's stats that can match or better Morne Steyn....

Don't talk about his "poor" defense, or his "utter" lack of attack, and only focus on his kicking ability.... 

On his stats alone, that I have also been providing over the years on this forum, Morne Steyn is still the most successful South African 10 of all time..... but if he isn't, then I am keen to see someone else's comparison to any other SA number 10 in our rugby history.

"In terms of talent as an all round rugby player - Naas, Honibal, Stransky, Hennie le Roux, Pretorious, Butch, Goosen, Jantjies, Libbok and Pollard are all far better than Morne and that’s a fact"

In terms of talent, I agree, you could be correct with a few of these players here Dave.....

However, in terms of success on the playing field, you are not correct...

I hope you see the difference.......

DumbAss is pointing out the distinction between "most successful" and "best".

Morne is the "most successful" in terms of points, trophies, number of wins and all the other stuff that comes with so many caps. It's indisputable.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't necessarily make him the best and I don't think DumbAss is disagreeing with that either. 

Doos XL should just be treated as comic relief . . . which he does really well (there's my kindness coming out again).

"Morne has those records based on his goal kicking"

Yes Dave, along with his individual contributions to the games and tournaments that his teams have won during his career.....which is precisely why he is the most successful SA number 10 of all time, which also includes his numerous team trophies as well....

Nowhere have I ever said that Morne Steyn was the most gifted number 10 that SA has ever had or produced...... nor have I said that he possessed the most talent for any 10 who graced the field for SA....

I stated now, and also many years ago, that Morne Steyn is the most successful number 10 that SA has ever had..... and that is a fact.

"DA are you trying to be stupid"

Nope, but you might be.....take the blinkers off

"Morne is the "most successful" in terms of points, trophies, number of wins and all the other stuff that comes with so many caps. It's indisputable."

Correct... hence why I said, take the blinkers off.

"The point I'm making is that it doesn't necessarily make him the best and I don't think DumbAss is disagreeing with that either. "

Correct, I don't disagree with you, or Dave for that matter, on some of the points that you have both raised.... some very good points and player comparisons..... but Morne Steyn is definitely number one regarding overall successes on the rugby field for a SA numb er 10... there is just no comparison

Naas, Honibal, Stransky, Hennie le Roux, Pretorious, Butch, Goosen, Jantjies, Libbok and Pollard 

Actually, you are mostly incorrect. If we are looking at natural talent, only Stransky and Butch are more naturally talented. Butch being my call for the most talented 10 we've produced. Pollard has been outplayed in every test since 2019, though some that has to do with our poor game plan and him buying into the mediocrity of Erasmus. Pretorius doesn't come close. Libbok is another Goosen, who hasn't shown any aptitude for test rugby. Jantjies also doesn't come close. Lambie is the Damian of fly halves. Goosen was an embarrassment. The simple fact is this, Morné was a well rounded 10 who didn't have any obvious weaknesses. He could take it to the line, and did so often enough, his defence was rock solid. Here's the thing, those who have a very limited understanding of the game want a mindless runner. They are the same people who advocate for the manic mindless running at 12, and 13 too. Dead end, useless, static, dunce ball. They never see the value in a 10 who can send a bullet pass across 2/3 the width of the field, allowing us to vary our spacing, depth, and ability to get outside the edge defender. Morné had the toolkit for every situation. What does Libbok have? Can he control a game? Or can he be decisive in a close test? Can he stand up to physicality? Can he defend? Can he do more than run into open space? Thus far, the answer is no. As history has shown, Goosen and Lambie et al were vastly inferior failures who had nothing to offer. The latter being a defensive fullback and the former being a Currie Cup level running fullback. Now those are the facts! 

l'Grande Merde

Mrne was the worst defending flyhalf I have ever seen playing at 10.   Because he was so poor ball carriers run at him and he frequently failed to stop them.   This war typified in his last starting game under Meyer in Perth in 2014 when he missed 7 of his 15 tackle attempts and he on his own that day caused the Springbok loss.   Meyer dropped him from the team after that typically Morne display - but Meyer needed a braai partner so he included him in the 2015 WC squad where he had a total of 31 minutes playing time.   

I am amazed at you making a player who failed on international level other than kicking at goal and did not succeed as a flyhalf when playing for Stade Francais - the best he could do was to be their bench flyhalf playing minimal time - is the best flyhalf we ever had.  I can still remember a particular Stade Francais  match.  Stade had a big lead and was sure to get a sorely needed bonus point which they had provided the opposing team did not score a try.   Morne came on at minute 72 and in the remaining 8 minutes he buggered up totally in making an aimless kick which the opposition used to launch a counterattack.  One of the key missed tackles in that counterattack was by Morne and Stade lost the bonus point.    It was a typical BS display by Morne that was to be found in many matches he played in. 

Morne's record spoke for himself - 

*   he was dropped from the Springbok team in 2012 after the Dunedin test preceded by a totally shit display;

*   after two failed performances in 2014 he was dropped twice from the Springbok team; and 

*   he played a critical contributing role in giving the AB's chances to score the highest number of points in succeeding tests against the Springboks when Coetzee picked him as Springbok flyhalf.

He was in much the same boat as Fat Fransie you always rate highly as well.   Amazing - and you claim you know something about rugby.  

Morné's tackle stats are over 80%. It's actually better than the current team's overall tackle percentage for the past season. Lambie was routinely run over and dragged backwards. There isn't one example of Morné being run over or brushed aside. Goosen had literally no impact whatsoever in contact, against anyone. However, he sometimes avoided it, such as when he was the sole fringe defender and decided to waltz off to the tramlines for no reason and allow New Zealand a decisive try in 2012 (Dunedin). Or how about the run by Nonu off a line out in the same game where he was literally run over which caused a massive collapse of our line and another try. Morné doesn't have these moments. But, as stated, Morné has accumulated a body of work that will stand the test of time. No more is this based on hypotheticals or projections of what he might accomplish. Those discussions are well and truly ended. Now it's a matter of the newcomers showing if they can match or better him, and so far, they are falling well short of him. Pollard was to be the big hope for South Africa, and as talented as he may be, he never delivered on the promise of being Morné's superior. The stats and film don't lie. Stop being so ridiculous as to try and fight an enormous glut of facts. 

"Morné has accumulated a body of work that will stand the test of time. No more is this based on hypotheticals or projections of what he might accomplish. Those discussions are well and truly ended.

 Now it's a matter of the newcomers showing if they can match or better him, and so far, they are falling well short of him"

Yep..... whether you like him or not, facts are facts..... but my guess is that we won't see anyone more successful than Morne in our lifetime

"DA - yes Morne is the most successful goal kicker ever SA number 10"

Fixed       

Where's the evidence for this Saffex? We have two camps on the matter, only one is providing the information, the other is providing bad language, foot stamping, and opinions founded on nothing. Whether it's passing, kicking, running... Morné has proven himself to be better than the more favoured media personalities (not to be confused with rugby talent). 

Hey folks for a bunch of rugby hackers who never played provincial or international rugby but always made the local pub team we have the nerve to bash many a great Springbok rugby player without hesitation.

Most if not all of the players taking flak did at some stage earn their selection prior to the new RSA sport policy of colour codes.

Even then most of the players deserved selection.

How about highlighting a few of your rugby success on the field.

One does not have to be an international player to be able to evaluate an international player. I respect your stance in wanting to show some measure of respect for players, and there is truth to what you say, to varying degrees (depending which player we are talking about). However, I think it's fair to say that Morné is a top 30 Bok. More so than any other 10. I have gone back over Boks from many decades back, but this man has earned his spot. There are great Bok 10s since readmission, such as Stransky and Butch James and then there are those who have done okay like Jaco, De Beer, Pretorius, Pollard et al. Others are much less deserving of praise and they are usually those who have the loudest and earliest coronation! They typically do nothing well. Of all our Bok 10s, that I have seen, Rose, Goosen, Russell, Lambie are pretty much the worst. 

Saffex, you ignore everything. Anything you do not like, you ignore you are the most biased poster I have ever seen. You sound like a neo-lib first year Uni student, studying gender studies. A prima foot stamper! Tries, runs, metres, passes, film study, stats everything. It all supports the fact that Morné is everything I said he is. He is rightly the first back I'd pen down on a top 30 list since readmission. You bought into the media nonsense, as ever, and that leads you astray. I see commonality here: those who side against Morné display a lack of analytics and critical thinking skills on other topics.

He offered nothing on attack and was shit scared of tackling. 

Do you ever think before you speak? Or do you ever do a little research before posting? I can reference the 2011 test against Australia where Lambie twice allowed Cooper to run right past him for a huge gain. Show me one instance of Morné avoiding or cowering from contact/defence. I can reference many instances of Morné chasing desperately to make cover tackles. I like the 2013 home game against New Zealand. He made 5 scramble tackles, preventing three tries. He mopped up after failed tackles by Habana, Thor, Pollard, Willie and a couple of others and knocked Jaws on his backside as well as holding Nonu up, turning him and exposing the ball for a strip. He also bravely, on his own, fought to stop a pick and drive on the short side against three Kiwi forwards on our line. Morné was calm and authoritative, but also had heart. I can cite so many things, but I never see the critics produce anything. Only Michael does so, but his accounts are always easily exposed lies. 

No amount of research or stats are going to change what I have observed of Morne as a rugby over what must be close to 15 years

Well, it doesn't look like you observe very much. Maybe it's time to have those cataracts removed. You can't reference one example of the things you say. Why is that? You make statements, but you cannot tell me when or where they occur. Nothing. You're also the same fellow who, along with Michael, rages against video evidence!

Get this into your fucking stupid brain - Morne was a shit rugby player end of.

No, not end of. You have yet to provide one piece of evidence to support anything you say! Am I supposed to ignore everything I have seen and know to be true simply because you say so? That's extremely childish. The body of evidence against your "eye test" is substantial.

I also expect my flyhalf to stand up physically and at least make his tackles or take contact when need be

Morné did exactly that. Morné was never a physical liability. I have every test Morné ever played at hand. I challenge you to reference these failings and I'll post them right here. Interestingly, the players you laud the most are the frail in contact. I cannot recall Lambie ever landing a solid tackle at 10, only 15. I recall the Damian myth of running over people began and ended with Lambie; he ran over him twice. Not saying very much, given Lambie was a doormat his entire career. Goosen, that was even worse. Absolutely no presence in contact. Not even slightly. Literally knocked aside like a child. I can't recall seeing another rugby union player that looked like a little boy playing amongst men. Libbok looks to be cut of the same cloth. 

"With reference to his playing ability stats are of zero consequence."

Then stop using those exact same stats to keep defending De Allende and other players you have previously selected

No amount of research or stats are going to change what I have observed of Morne as a rugby over what must be close to 15 years

Then stop using those exac t same stats to keep defending De Allende and other players you have previously selected...

You can't have it both ways

l'Grande Merde

Just a few questions about Morne Steyn:- 

  *   Why was he dropped from the Springbok team  - once in 2012 and twice in 2014 and once in 2016 if he was any good?  

 *    Why was he the routine bench flyhalf of Stade Francais f he was any good at all?

 *    How can a   player who was not even top cass playing on club level be a top class player on international level?

Just a few questions about Frans Steyn as well:-

 *    Steyn went to Racing Metro  - where he started of well and then deteriorated badly;

 *    Why did he deteriorate - because of his habit of over and unbalanced eating and resultant weight problems impacting on his pace.   Did that not have a detrimental factor  when it comes to performance?

 *     After failing badly in the  2012 tests he played in - why did he not play a test until 2019 - if he a any good why did that happen?

 *     Why did Frans Steyn fail badly at enter playing for the Sharks in 2013 to 2015?  

 *     Why did SARU refuse to reneew his playing contract in 2015 and why did the Sharks refuse to sign a contract with him that year?

"DA you are speaking crap I don’t use stats to validate my take on de Allende the best 12 in the game"

My bad Dave... you are correct

It is not just De Allende that you do it for....... you also use stats to prove your points for plenty of other players and even teams as well......

 "*   Why was he dropped from the Springbok team  - once in 2012 and twice in 2014 and once in 2016 if he was any good?  

 *    Why was he the routine bench flyhalf of Stade Francais f he was any good at all?

 *    How can a   player who was not even top cass playing on club level be a top class player on international level?"

What a pathetic attempt to try and minimize what he did for that club...

He played for Stade Francais over 130 times, and helped them win the Top 14 title in 2014, as well as the European Rugby Challenge in 2017

Simple question Mike

Why would Stade Francais keep a player that is so shit, for 7 years..... they must really be stupid.

If Morne Steyn is such a shit player, why does he have all these individual and team records?

Post just one single SA number 10 who can boast to have achieved anything even remotely close to what Morne Steyn has .... just one.

DA

He was a very good kicker at goal - his out of hand kicks was average to poor.   In the Dunedin test in 2012 the commentators commented on two kicks and in on the air said they were BS.

I hate no player  - all I said there are way too many negatives to say hew was an all-round good flyhalf.    Morne was as Dave said not a brave player - he tried to avoid body contract.   He virtually never had an injury that could be regarded as serious.   That being the case he never attacked the gain line and was because he stood so deep in the pocket totally in-effective as a pivot responsible for attacking backline rugby.

Many experts realize what Morne is about.   I refer above to a comment by Hansen - who was 100% correct on the issue.   Morne was 100% predictable.   That being the case he as there than kicking at goal - not a good enough flyhalf.    So lets get clarity as to why Morne was dropped  as a Springboks flyhalf:-

*    In the tests leading up to the Dunedin test his kicking at goal failed and in the Dunedin test in 2012 he missed 7 of the 8 kicks he kicked at goal.   He never played any other tests in 2013.

*     In the second Wales test in 2014 he was useless an incident I still remember was when the  Welsh kicked a dribbled ball to him and he was not looking at the ball but at the approaching tacklers so the ball rolled beneath his hands and straight through the gaps between his legs,    He was dropped after that match.    In the 2014 Perth match had a horror game - he missed half of the tackle attempts he tried to make.   He missed by about 5 meters to find touch with a penalty line kick at minute 74 - the Aussies counter-attacked  during which Morne missed a crucial tackle.   Another problem was that Habana was off with a yellow card and due to return if the penalty kick found touch.    By the way it was not a solitary mistake - Morne  in he apst made a number of similar penalty line kicks where he failed to find touch - 2 in a test against France and 2 in an AB away test.

I give Morne credit for his great ability as a goal kicker.   As to being an all-round good flyhalf the answer is a huge NO.    It must remember that his 68 tests  - 15 of which he was on the bench  - happened in a period from 2009 to 2014 - bar two atrocious tests he played in under Coetzee.    If he was an all-round good flyhalf he would have been a regular in the Springbok team - one could hardly call him that.   

"DA you are speaking crap I don’t use stats to validate my take on de Allende the best 12 in the game"

Of course not Saffex, you use the "eye test". It's served you well 

In the Dunedin test in 2012 the commentators commented on two kicks and in on the air said they were BS.

Actually, this wasn't true at all. The commentator commented on the kicking of Pienaar.

Morne was as Dave said not a brave player - he tried to avoid body contract.

Really? Where did this myth even come from? I have cited many instances of Morné chasing every last opportunity to put in a tackle, he was a very effective scramble defender. There is no evidence for this. Morné was one of the most durable Boks, and one of the best defensive 10s South Africa has ever produced. 

Many experts realize what Morne is about.   I refer above to a comment by Hansen - who was 100% correct on the issue.   Morne was 100% predictable.

Really? Care to provide some evidence for once? Show me where any expert on the game said that Morné was predictable or not a good 10. 

In the tests leading up to the Dunedin test his kicking at goal failed and in the Dunedin test in 2012 he missed 7 of the 8 kicks he kicked at goal.   He never played any other tests in 2013.

He missed 4 shots at goal. Frans missed at least 2 himself. You are not being honest here. Yes, he did have some troubles in front of goal. 

Michael, you continually waffle a load of nonsense. Why do you lie time and time again? I simply cannot entertain this nonsense any longer. Despite being exposed, you keep repeating the lies. 

l'Grande Merde

Lies aplenty:-

Dunedin test - the BS kicks was by Morne not Pienaar.   Morne did all the goal-kicking in the test until he was replaced.    When he failed in goal-kicking he lost all his value to the team due to incompetence and became a shit player.   Nobody believes your dreamed up examples as to Morne being a defender and attacking the gain line - it just did not happen.     

Morné shared place kicks with Frans. At least try to do a little research before talking. Morné went to go on to have a highly successful 2013, the last great attacking Bok side, and he was pivotal to that success. As per defence, he actually has over 80% tackle success. That's not an opinion, or perception, that's a matter of fact. It's not a nice thing to have to say, but it can't be put any other way, it's the opinion of very stupid people that Morné can't defend or avoids contact. I say stupid because it is not evident in any game for any team that he played for. I'm sure this has been well and truly established time and time again. It would take an even more stupid person to have such a large body of work spanning so many years in front of them and still persist with this nonsense. You say nobody believes me? I don't need to play a numbers game here for support. Stupid people like to comfort themselves with an angry horde to assure themselves that they are right. I bet you would have been one of those neo-libs or BLM rioters, feeling validated by the number of people around you. Besides, on here, it is essentially you and Saffex, nobody else. 

I watched that match in Dunedin a number of times and the goalkicking  was always done by Morne not Frans Steyn.   The two kicks the commentators said was aimless shit.  were both kicked by Morne.   Fact - you are lying about the issue     ymouc laim youa re using stats -= but the last time you actually placed some stats on site - I found you were lying so I do not believe your fake stats stories at all.

I watched that match in Dunedin a number of times and the goalkicking  was always done by Morne not Frans Steyn.   The two kicks the commentators said was aimless shit.  were both kicked by Morne.   Fact - you are lying about the issue     ymouc laim youa re using stats -= but the last time you actually placed some stats on site - I found you were lying so I do not believe your fake stats stories at all.

So now I have lied about stats, when and where did that happen? I want you to post the link or quote me right here! It's not me who is the liar, it is you. Everything you said is wrong.