DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
18 May 2015, 11:38#41
Moollaa you have a point about the watch.....it does appear to look suss but then again there's nothing to suggest any skullduggery by the Ref in the final. If there is a questionable decision then please point it out.
18 May 2015, 12:31#42
No suggestion from me of any actual skullduggery from the ref in that final Denny.As I said, I can't bring myself to watch it again and it's only been 20 years!!I'm over it of course.....
DEDenny
Captain12,893 posts
18 May 2015, 12:45#43
Well my friend, if you're over it and there was no sinister decisions in the final then I really can't see your point?
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 May 2015, 12:48#44
Abasque, we can't view the 4 tries video. The "forward pass" try works fine. That pass looks fine. Much worse passes are given after referrals. I see some one added some text to illustrate that the pass was before the 22 and was received past the 22 (you? I see you mentioned this in a prior post as well). If you look at where Serfontein is when the receiver catches the ball, you will see that the ball can only have been passed backwards. If that pass has been forward, the catcher would have had to catch the ball in front of where Serf was when he did.Momentum and inertia are are the reason for the forward motion of the ball...the so called drift pass. I don't like it either, but that's how they apply that law.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 May 2015, 12:52#45
PS, I love bitching about poor reffing, but to blame poor refs for unwanted results are daft. Lots can be done to make officiating less of a lottery. Iv'e noticed some lucky breaks for my team, that probably had the other team's fans fuming at the ref.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 May 2015, 13:06#46
DbDraad
I did look at the pass made by Serfontein and he was always ahead of Basson when the pass was made - so how it could be adjudicated as a forward pass must be a joke.
I have always hear about the momentum issue - but in this case it is not even necessary to look at that component - since the pass was by no means forward.
18 May 2015, 13:47#47
Maybe Denny he was referring to the Semifinals when the French were denied that try
18 May 2015, 13:58#49
What if we call it a home town decision
ABABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
18 May 2015, 15:14#52
@ddraad,
"If you look at where Serfontein is when the receiver catches the ball,
you will see that the ball can only have been passed backwards. If that
pass has been forward, the catcher would have had to catch the ball in
front of where Serf was when he did."
@mike,
"I did look at the pass made by Serfontein and he was always ahead
of Basson when the pass was made - so how it could be adjudicated as a
forward pass must be a joke."
WTF are you both talking about? did you lose your plot or what? or do you need to see again the whole Sesame street to learn what forward is?
A forward pass is when the ball goes forward, period,...... is not very dificult to understand,...... no matter where the player who gave the pass is in the moment of the reception, the only thing that counts is where he was in the moment when he gives the pass not when the receiver takes the ball.
Imagine that one player passes the ball 5 meters completely forward, no doubt about it, he passes the ball to a player who is 5 meters in front of him. But he passes the ball throwing it very high, so that he can run and surpass the receiver. In the moment when the receiver takes the ball the one who gave the pass is ahead of him. According to your theory that wouldn't be a forward pass. This is completely absurd.
In many cases the refs look to the hand in the moment the ball goes out of it but this is another story, this is because normally there are no clear referential points to see if the ball has gone forwards or not. But in this case it couldn't be more clear, the 22 line is the best possible referential that one can find.
If the ball goes from 1 meter behind the 22 line when the pass is made and the catcher takes it 1 meter after the 22, it's a 2 meter forward pass. Period.
18 May 2015, 15:37#53
That is p retty much my logic on the matter ABfan.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 May 2015, 15:38#54
Abasque, I agree with you and my explanation is a bit weak. When a flat pass is thrown, by a player running at speed, the ball will travel forward at the same speed as the player was running and the ball will go forward in relation to the field. This is still a legal pass according to the current interpretation laws and that is why they look at the hands of the passing player to determine close calls. That is why I looked at the position of Serfontein when the pass was received. He did not accelerate after passing but he was way ahead of where the pass was received. Therefore the pass must have gone back from his hands. I know it sounds stupid, but that is how they apply the law.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 May 2015, 16:31#57
I support Draads comments in this regard. Should have clarified the issue myself. I only mentioned the momentum issue and thought that would have sufficed - but ABF took it seriously wrong and was quite nasty in his comments. Calm needs to be restored here.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 May 2015, 17:38#58
Rooi, it's not as simple as you think. To be a ref in South Africa, you need to pass a yearly laws examination, how stringent this is, is up for debate. It is done on union level, so it might be difficult to judge standards. You also need the IRB level 1 and level 2 course. Wait for it....8hours and 16hours programmes respectively! A professional sport deserves more IMO.
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
18 May 2015, 17:50#59
Oh I see . . . so guys like Craig Joubert, Marius van der Westhuizen and Jaco Peyper got to be Super Rugby refs because they passed 2 courses? Wow, so maybe it is a "give Johnny a go" scenario after all!
So Draad, perhaps you can name some of these refs who were just given a go and weren't selected based on years of top performances at the lower levels?
Go on then, name some of these Super Rugby refs who didn't work their way through the ranks and who didn't rise to the top level because they were better than the other refs.
Come on then . . . we're waiting. Names please.
I'll tell you what is as simple as I think . . . the IRB and SANZAR refs are the best and most qualified people on the planet to referee a game of rugby and anyone sitting there demanding that they write more exams and have better qualifications is a blithering idiot. They got where they are over decades based on actual performances, not because they passed some exam or did a 8 hour course. I mean, really!
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 May 2015, 17:55#60
Exactly, but from what I read, much of it is based on the subjective. For something that generates so much controversy, much can be done to make the process seem as thorough as you seem to think it is.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 May 2015, 18:02#61
PS Rooi, do you think refereeing is as good as it can be and that enough is being done to make sure an uniform standard is maintained accross the globe?
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
18 May 2015, 18:08#62
I have heard that the SA refs have to go through an "asset acquisition" course where they have to show they can assess the value of gold watches & other such "gifts" at a glance & be willing to share such gifts with other interested SA parties.
SA refs receiving their "reward for result"
. We need more "graduates" beeno bleated!!
Surely SA fans don't know this goes on mumbled the fair-minded kiwi
RORooinek
Captain18,117 posts
RORooinekCaptain18,117 posts
18 May 2015, 18:24#63
Draad, I'll answer your question even though you're jumping onto another point. With the laws of the game as confusing and as interpretive as they are and with the huge discrepancy between what players and refs earn, yes, rugby reffing is as good as it gets.
The point I was making wasn't about whether refereeing could be better or more uniform, the point I was making (and have been labouring for many years now) is that the the refs we do have are the very best available so anyone moaning about them should put up names of people who are better qualified or else shut the hell up. Implying that any old Johnny come lately could get himself qualified and do a better job is a huge insult to the professionals who do their best week in and week out for nothing but poor pay and a stream of insults from slack-jawed half-wits who think they know better.
The same is probably true of football, cricket, tennis and almost any game you care to name where there is any kind of officiating or judging involved . . . but it seems especially true in rugby where the laws are far too complex and the average supporter hasn't got the vaguest idea whether the ref is right or not.
sharkbok
Captain23,285 posts
sharkbokCaptain23,285 posts
18 May 2015, 19:18#65
The Serf ontein pass was forward.
MOMozart
Captain49,914 posts
MOMozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 May 2015, 23:50#67
The Serfontein pass was made from outside the 22 and caught two steps inside the 22.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 May 2015, 05:07#68
I think oimatey is correct in this case. From the video it is clear that momentum could have played a role in this case - but video evidence also depends on the direction the hans was aimed at in making the pass and that was not clear from this video clip.
Just a question Mozart. If it was Steyn involved and not Serfontein - would your comment have been the same?
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
19 May 2015, 17:42#69
Rooi, I agree that the refs are as good as it gets under current circumstances. That's the point. Things need to change for the better and SANZAR repremanding the odd official in puplic ain't the way to get there. Some larger issues need to be sorted first.
20 May 2015, 21:49#71
JW, I see where Vinny Munro and Glen Jackson haven't been dropped at all for this week. Apparently they were rostered off this week anyway so there's been no sanctioning as first thought!!
JWJust_win
Captain18,570 posts
JWJust_winCaptain18,570 posts
21 May 2015, 06:58#72
Moolaa: well, that is not good, I think they deserved sanctioning but maybe they were reprimanded. Maybe their ranking went down, they must have some way of scoring/assessing the performance of refs, TMOs, etc.
21 May 2015, 12:42#73
The Home Town Advantage is very clear in alot of the games where the refs are concerned. Surely no money under the table has been passed or quiet whispers of seeing the bigger picture with their decisions
