Something for the Elderly Members of this site

Thanks OuMaaik, that AB, Kevin Skinner passed away last year, & yep, he dealt to the Bok front row on that '56 tour .

Get your Jewish friend to make you some traditional yiddish chicken soup, guaranteed to keep you flu-free this winter .

 Clever Fox
I normally listen to what other people say and write and consider their points of view.  However, when and if the situation is clearly influenced by factors far removed from reality and it is constantly repeated as factual, then it becomes an irritation.   
You are entitled to your point of view on players like the Steyns, Matfield and Alberts - but the question remains what has these players in fact achieved since 2012 and especially in the last three years.  I am certainly within my rights to ask for practical examples of the wonderful attributes you and Mozart ascribe to those players.  Because that has never been forthcoming and when I stated that the players are defective - the stupid and negative personal comments come to the fore.
What is reality in rugby relates to practical performance - not theoretical stories what the players did in 2007 or thereabouts.   I do not believe in what a player is capable of in theory - but what he achieves in practice since 2012-13.  That is basically the difference between the two of you and myself  and that is where the stupid and personal attacks normally originated from.
The fact that practical performance is the key to what I believe players should display on the field of play and you believe in some theories about what players may be capable of at present - the difference in opinion would always be there.   i criticize players on the basis of actual performance - not on the basis of prejudice and dislike so often found with Mozart and you.  I criticize aspects of players even if the rest of their performance is excellent - for instance I wrote repeatedly that De Allende's defense needs to be better.   But I do not accept that it is as bad as the two of you makes it out to be.   
All players have positives and negatives - it is always a challenge to distinguish those two without prejudice.  Some members try to find those and deal with them.  However, I have yet to see ever any real criticism from either Mozart of you of players you glorify - where they make mistakes - the problem is you two try and cover it up with excuses.  
An open mind is required in debating rugby issues - but of that there is limited evidence here.   I just want to ask one question though?  I have never been in a verbal clashes, where personal attacks follow with any other members, but with Mozart,  Ceradyne and  you.  Does that not tell you that the fault is not entirely  mine.
      

 Nice Mike - good stuff.

There is always an unbelievable amount of spite around, it seems. A lot of it really is untrue as well, but why bother about that ? When you can bully and harass folk incessantly ? All good fun, right ? 
Sounds like you have a very interesting neighbour, Mike. Another thing, some people don't like to feel as though they are being " given " everything, it can be dehumanising. So, by doing some work for a little payment, Mike could be helping this lady psychologically in more ways than you realise. It could be giving her pride back and sense of worth for one thing, not making her feel like she was a slave, as you have suggested. There are two ways of looking at the situation.

And Saffex, you will never be as grey as I am !!! Don't fret about it  

 becs
I am actual ly paying her for work done by the lady concerned.

Well, a perfect demonstration of my lack of bias was the Stormers v Sharks game. You are right, there are pros and cons to players, and I highlighted issues when speaking about Frans at 15! Quite honestly Michael, I have gone to such lengths as provide video footage, diagrams of set moves and attack patterns... I can't think of anyone else that has gone to greater lengths to back up their argument. 

 I know you are, Mike. Which is why I said that it can be a very good thing; people don't always want to feel like they are beholden to someone even when they are in the direst of circumstances. Some will not even accept help, or " charity " from another. So, what you are doing could be seen as the best of all. You are providing assistance but actually making this lady feel like she is valued as well and that is important when folk have lost everything and are at rock  bottom. I think it was uncharitable to suggest you were doing otherwise. 

 Desert Fox
I have no problem with that - even if it is likely that there will be disagreement between us as always - but at least we could keep it civil without any personal insults.
I will admit one thing - I too often run back to stats - they are not the be-all and end-all of rugby.  Stats in individual matches can be highly inaccurate and problematic.  At best over a season they can give an indication of trends in player performances during that season.   I think that is how most coaches view it - if you listen to Meyer's remarks that is the case with him too.
Incidentally - I was delighted when Frans returned from France and part of my present problem with him may be disappointment in what he produced compared to what I expected from him to produce.    

 Top post, Desert. At the end of the day, we're all here with the same hope that the Boks win the world cup (obviously not our kiwi pals, Aussie pals and becs though :P) and because we love the game. And if we all agreed on the way to do it, this would be a ver y boring place.

 You know I have never thought that England will win the RWC, APD ! I would love to be proved wrong, however  But I want you to win if we don't.....you should know that by now !!! 

 Respect is earned and the players mentioned earned that years ago.   However, there is  a problem in any sport situation and that is that the players must maintain their performances - if they deteriorate they damage their reputation (at times beyond repair)  and the criticism follows as a result.
The situation is always to be considered based on present performance - not on reputation.  If performance deteriorated then it is inevitable that players will be criticized and to say they should not be done because we need to show them respect is not realistic.  
There has been very little criticism of Burger since his return to play rugby after more than a two years absence.   His performance is on high level.  Criticism of De Villiers was minimal  with more concern being expressed about his rehabilitation from his injury last year.  The real criticism was directed against Matfield - who is not half the player he was in 2007 and whose presence in the team is detrimental to functioning ofthe Tight 5.  Jannie over the last year performed below par as well.  He did better in the last two tests and there was no further criticism of him.
What is evident is that players must not damage their own reputation by playing  below par beyond their sell-by dates.  If they do stay on and under-perform they will be criticized.