DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
31 May 2015, 16:45#2
I still maintain this not the 12 we are looking for, more than anything this game proved that.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 May 2015, 21:03#3
This is ridiculous - you are talking KAK again. In the main De Allende attacked the inside line and often enough it took up to three Cheetahs to bring him down. The line breaks he made are all on the inside line. He did more hard yards in this game than any other backline player and in one game did more of those than Steyn did in all the games he played in combined.
De Allende has the ability to vary the game and to play both the inside and outside line of attack of the 12. He can do both and has proven that over and over again.
How come everyone else point to the strength of the player and you alone keep on harping about that he is poor at 12. If he was poor as a center - why is he the highest rated center in Super 15 with the highest record of tackles beaten?
If one reads your match desc ription nothing comes through about tackles beaten and there were 9 of those.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 00:44#4
Michael, are you honestly that ignorant? Oops, I said honestly! My bad
Anyway, I mention where tackles were broken in very clear and precise detail. To be quite honest with you the detail was excessive at times, and you clearly had trouble comprehending it. He is, however, productive in space, and Coetzee had quite ingeniously structured the Stormers game plan to take advantage of that by putting him into space. I gave him a credit for what he did do, even in spite of the Cheetahs offering no resistance whatsoever.
For you to say what you just said, well, you might just be more dishonest than even I gave you credit for being! The times are there, you can look it all up yourself, so can everyone else here. I stand by what I said and if you have an area of disagreement, we can discuss it properly once you post exactly where I am wrong. I will go back and review it. I'll post the video later anyway.
AGAgPleezDeddy
Club Pro900 posts
AGAgPleezDeddyClub Pro900 posts
01 Jun 2015, 01:53#5
Lestat, I agree with a lot of your views, unfortunately I think that De Allende has been awesome this year and deserves that 12 jersey. I agree improvements need to be made in defence for him but I think his attack is just so good. I'm saying this as a big Fransie Steyn fan too and someone who has championed his squad selection so far.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 02:07#6
With Frans at 12 and DA at 13 he has more freedom to run; with Willie and our speed out wide he would be more deadly. I would back a gamble for him at 13. I am not against him, I'm just saying that we need to put him somewhere he can be better utilized. At test level, at 12, he is going to be doing much less open running and more of the hard yards on attack and defence. He clearly is not adept at that, Either way he needs space and the opportunity to beat the outside edge of the defensive line. Statistics from the IRB show that offloads from 13 result in more tries, hence why I liken the position to a playmaker role ala Smith. Let's give him the best chance to succeed. Even if he isn't the best defender I would back him there.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jun 2015, 07:31#7
There ius one thing whiuch Letsal may be in reality plugging the same theme as Meyer will probably do and that is play De Allende at 13. The situation is likely that in the event of De Villiers being available, Meyer is likely to use likely to use De Villiers at 12 and De Allende at 13.
However, if De Villiers is available there is another problem and that is that De Villiers when playing for Western Province and the Stormers and in the absence of De Jongh always insisted that De Allende play at 12 and he takes up the number 13 position. If he is th captain - Meyer is likely to take account of his views in the relevant regard. If De Villiers is not available - then there is a problem. The choices are very limited and here is where there may be further problems for Meyer. I do not think Meyer will go for Fransie at 12. The latter did not do well enough in Super 15 and was in fact excluded from the Meyer training camps. In this regard it must be mentioned that Fransie contributed himself to the problem and other issues played a role as well. He missed the first three rounds in Super 15 - then missed another 5 rounds as a result of a red card offence - and is now missing another 2 rounds as a result of injury. That left him with some 8 games in actual fact played in the 18 rounds. To his detriment is the fact that Lambie and Reinach both got injured and the Sharks did not have a realistic halfback situation in place. Another issue is how long will Steyn be out with injury this time around. In 2012 it was 6 months, in 2013 it was 9 months - how long will it be this year - at present it is not known. If it is 2 months there is but no chance that he will be selected for the Springboks in the RC and he will be off to Japan in early August with no further playing time in SA before the WC. So lets accept Steyn is not in contention, who should be? This is a serious problem. Saffex will swear it should be Serfontein - and Meyer is likely to make him his first choice at 12 in the absence of De Villiers. Serfontein showed some form in that position - but he also had some rather serious injury problems as well and is at present out injured.
If Serfontein is out for the RC - and not enough is known about his present injury situation to be sure about it - where to then? The only center that really made a major claim for inclusion in the squad is Harold Vorster. He was on Saturday not as effective in attack as he normally is - but after being rather average in the first three games - he became one of the highest rated centers in his last six games - consistently outplaying all comers, whether at 12 or at 13. It would be interesting to see what happens in the next round in Super 15. I think that the Lions is going to change their backline and play Mapoe on the wing with Vorster at 13 and Hollenbach at 12. If that is indeed the Lions backline combination for Saturday it could be seriously problematic for the Stormers.
However, lets get back to the no 12 Springbok situation. I think there are basically in the absence of De Villiers and if De Allende is moved to 13 only two possibilities at 12 and that is Serfontein or Vorster - with Meyer going the Serfontein route because of experience.
Be it as it may - Meyer (with his personal aversion to physically small backline players) has a limited number of players to pick from for center and that limited number includes only De Villiers, De Allende, Serfontein and Vorster.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
01 Jun 2015, 10:36#8
de Allende made ignorant Lestat look like the fool he is this weekend
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 12:09#9
Actually, Damian did exactly what I said he would do. This game served my point perfectly.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jun 2015, 13:20#10
Letsal
Be honest for a change. Your point is that De Allende is physically too weak to play at 12. You have been going on for weeks about that one and base the rest of your argument on two incidents where he did get ball possession wider out and did well as well.
I have asked you repeatedly and never got an answer from you. If De Allende is such a weak attacker through 12 - how come he made linebreaks when Fransie and Williams were his opponents and showed both of them up badly when they tried to defend against linebreaks by him?
What he did to Fransie was really an eye-opener. When Fransie tried to tackle him he ended up on his backside on two occasions. De Allende just breezed past him - same with Williams as well.
No explanation as to the above - will mean that your whole argument is shown up for what it really is - a bad case of verbal diarrhea.
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
01 Jun 2015, 13:50#11
Mike, I plan to check this week's write up as soon as the game is available on youtube, but it doesn't look too negative as is.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 14:30#12
Draad, I get the game within a few hours after its been aired here:
http://www.sport-video.org.ua/index.html
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jun 2015, 14:37#13
Letsal
No answer to my latest question - I am still waiting for that one.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 14:57#14
To your latest question? I have answered it twice already. Are you trying to kill me with repetitiveness? Is it not bad enough that every few weeks I have to cover the same 6 tests again and again because you keep bringing them up as "new" issues? Here's some advice: If it didn't work the first time, the second, third or even the three thousandth time... It is never going to work!
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 15:10#16
Where did I say Damian have no positives to his game? He does, but it's not where any of you say it is. He has flaws which are consistently exploited on a weekly basis. He has limitations that are detrimental to the success of the Stormers attack. Where can his very particular strengths be utilised with maximum effect? Not at 12. Can he succeed at 13? Possibly, but for his shocking defending. He looks like a wing. Noone here is able to successfully to prove otherwise. With regards to this very game, an easy game for an attacking centre, where did he succeed? Point it out. Why is this always a problem for those who disagree with me? Simply point out where these things occur. If you can't, that lends considerable weight to my belief that you don't know what you are talking about and that you follow the media circus blindly.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 15:43#18
You keep insisting I am wrong, but where are these things to be found in game? Where does he run over everyone? Where are his strong tackles? Where does he create space? Where does he contribute constructively to the attack? What is the net result of all of his runs? Why are the Damian groupies short of answers? I think this player is going to be found out at test level. He'll play 12 for the Boks, such is the support he is receiving, but it won't work.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jun 2015, 15:43#19
Letsal
The following is a plain question:-
I have asked you repeatedly and never got an answer from you. If De Allende is such a weak attacker through 12 - how come he made linebreaks when Fransie and Williams were his opponents and showed both of them up badly when they tried to defend against linebreaks by him?
Why not give a simple answer to the question asked. You claimed you answered it twice before already - so quote your answers if you did.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 16:04#20
I'm going one better Michael. I'm getting the game footage together.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jun 2015, 16:10#21
OK - I would love to see it.
SASaffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SASaffolk Captain30,741 posts
01 Jun 2015, 17:12#22
He cant function as a 12 having beaten more defenders than any other player in the comp playing at 12......are you serious you stupid idiot?
DBDbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DBDbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
01 Jun 2015, 17:36#25
Lestat, it looks like you are evaluating DdA on the classic 12 requirements. In the last few years the 12 role changed a bit for some coaches. DA is more in the mold of SBW, apposed to Fransie who plays more like Nonu. Each have their virtue if the game plan is executed properly.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jun 2015, 17:37#26
It is impossible to discuss anything with a person on Cloud 9 dreaming of things. He no claims that De Jongh is the effective no 12 of the Stormers and De Allende is the no 13. That is if ever there was tripe written on this site - is the biggest tripe ever.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 17:45#27
Saffex, Damian gets stopped easily when carrying it up! I have noted these incidents. He nearly got dumped by a Cheetah, but kept him up! He cannot handle direct pressure, as seen in the Rebels game when he was run over and slipped off many tackles. What you are saying, well, it doesn't exist. I keep asking the Damian groupies for evidence to the contrary and they keep drawing blanks. What is there for me to believe differently. Have a closer look at the games yourself and you'll see.
ABABasquefan
Pro2,549 posts
01 Jun 2015, 17:50#29
The only option now remaining for the boks at 12 is de Allende.
With
Steyn injured for some months and de Villiers recovering from a year
long injury there's no other possibility. And the better for boks' fans
would be that de Villiers cannot recover from his injury, if he recovers
Meyer will play the WC with him at 12 completely out of form. He won't
have enough gametime to get his form, at his age to spend one year out
of the competition means that some months playing are needed to regain
the form. Carter, e.g., is 1 or 2 years younger and needed some months.
Based
on form I would play with de Allende at 12 and Vorster at 13 but they
both lack experience. Boks have a big problem there, playing 2
inexperienced palyers at centers is dangerous
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
02 Jun 2015, 16:35#31
Dave, when carrying the ball up, he gets stopped. His success is in space, beating defenders on the outside and targeting weak shoulders. He is very often along the touchline, and that's where he beats the most defenders! What you are saying doesn't happen. It isn't real. You are falling into Michael's trap of looking at numbers and creating a false narrative.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Jun 2015, 16:50#32
Letsal
Sure De Allende gets stopped - but why does it take 2 to 3 players to tackle him and he still goes forward in the tackles. hat you say as to his play at 12 never happens and he in open field play went wide when there are other players to handle the ball - he does not clutter up the ball carriers like so many others tend to do. However, that is a thing that may happen once in a game - for the rest De Allende with remarkable success attack the opposing centers.
There is one major difference between De Allende and Steyn - which accounts for the superior performance by the former . De Allende targets the small gap between the two centers or between the flyhalf and the center and often enough draw in both players to attempt to tackle him - - thus creating space for other players. Steyn runs straight at the first defender and that defender routinely makes an effective tackle. That is why it is such a rarity for Steyn to break a tackle and why he is so ineffective in center play.
DEDezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
02 Jun 2015, 17:12#33
Straightening up the attack he does not get forward drive, the defence does, and the line settles quickly. It happened in the Cheetahs game just as it has all season. The Stormers are struggling on attack because they do not have someone to straighten the attack at 12 and get that gain line dominance, so they end up playing too laterally, hoping Damian can get them across the edge of the line. That hasn't been working.
CLclevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CLclevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Jun 2015, 19:46#34
This guy is clearly not knowing what is happening on the field of play and what he imagines as happening in fact does not happen at all. He keeps up a refrain and that refrain originates from his constant hero-worshipping of Steyn. He has to do so - because De Allende overshadows Steyn in every aspect of play and he has to counter facts by fairy tales.
