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FORUM / RUGBY /  The Centers...not as poor as predicted

The Centers...not as poor as predicted

Started by Mozart43 REPLIES597 VIEWS· 18 Oct 2015, 00:00
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MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Oct 2015, 00:00
#1
18 Oct 2015, 00:00#1
But they really created no attacking opportunities. Still the slow moving Welsh attack never confused them. Allende lost a few balls but made up for that be forcing a few penalties at the breakdown. Honestly it took about 60 minutes for Kriel to hit the radar screen. He was irrelevant for most of the game, but made his tackles.

These kids are going to be a huge vulnerability next week, but I can't see what we can do about it....there are no alternatives. Perhaps Allende can be encouraged to make an offload rather than continue to tractor, where he was vulnerable today and where he will be vulnerable, very vulnerable to turnovers against NZ.
The good news is Pollard is getting us over the advantage line and FduP is dropping his box kicks on a sixpence. 
 
DE
DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
18 Oct 2015, 00:23
#2
18 Oct 2015, 00:23#2
I thought Damian had a solid game. The first attack of the game though I saw the Boks moving to get the ball wide and shouted "Nooooo!". The predictable turnover from going wide nearly cost us a try. But he settled down and did what was asked of him. He made some big carries head-on and wasn't really tested on defence. 
Kriel was as you say nowhere. Serf looked far more composed, courageous and elusive in tight knit areas. 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Oct 2015, 01:16
#3
18 Oct 2015, 01:16#3
 I don't think we have seen Allende run at full pace all year...and after 7 tests, he has a run in try against the US to show for it. He is never dangerous....just industrious. To be the real centre he could be, he has to hit the ball at pace....to run towards the gaps not the tackles. Right now he runs more like a good eighth man than a centre.
He should look at some tapes of Stirling Mortlock, also hard to put away....but so much more likely to hit clean space.
The tackling issues were not tested today, but I fear they are just beneath the surface.
Basteraud made the mistake in one move of not shifting when SBW was in a position to offload. Will our centres? Can they read the play, I fear not.
DE
DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
18 Oct 2015, 01:43
#4
18 Oct 2015, 01:43#4
Damian looks so much like a rugby league player to me. Don't quite fit anywhere in the backline. Is he a wing? A 12? A 13? Who knows. 
DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
18 Oct 2015, 13:29
#5
18 Oct 2015, 13:29#5
 True Fox, not a classic 12 at all, but he's got some skills and if the boks can exploit it, we can only get better.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Oct 2015, 14:15
#6
18 Oct 2015, 14:15#6
 I'm curious Draad....how would you uncork Allende. The tractoring is impressive. He is like a four wheel drive vehicle going through obstacles . He appears to be stopped, but no, there is still motion. And then suddenly he breaks away and makes a few more yards.
Ultimately this is as dangerous as a mud slide going a foot an hour.

How do we get him into space, running flat out like a centre should getting his fellow backs behind the opponents line of defence?

Right now to me, and I'm not trying to be facetious, he looks like a target waiting to be stripped. I would be shocked if the ABs aren't seeing this as well. So what tactical adjustment should be made to make him dangerous....which I think he could be?
DE
DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
18 Oct 2015, 14:20
#7
18 Oct 2015, 14:20#7
 Good point Moz. NZ looked for the strip against France, they'll do it again. It's becoming the in thing now, to stand the attacker up and go for the ball whilst the defence realigns. It slows everything down so much that you lose the advantage of getting behind the gainline in the first place. 
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
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Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Oct 2015, 14:34
#8
18 Oct 2015, 14:34#8
Has it dawned yet that anybackljne coached in such an abysmal fashion wouldnt function properly. Burger got far more ball than Kriel - a brilliant prospect. Lat time round Allende and Kriel outplayed Ninu and Cio.rad. But we have mkved back to old bulle style rugby again.
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
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Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Oct 2015, 14:58
#9
18 Oct 2015, 14:58#9
 Centers not as poor as predicted, Lood not as ppor as predicted, malherbe not as poor as predicted.
Hahahhahahahaha time you, Foxie and cerudunce windpomp got one right.Think of changeing your mind re Steph. Just admit you got that one wrong as well.What a dismal assessment of players. worst of course is this trio are still punting wee matfiled!!!! 
DE
DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
18 Oct 2015, 15:03
#10
18 Oct 2015, 15:03#10
Beeno, Meyer had the Boks play the right game. Remember, Wales kept Australia tryless; the best attack in world rugby right now and reigning Rugby Championship winners. The Welsh defend with their 9 and wing in the line. The cover the wide the field and rush up hard on the outside. It completely stifles the wide game. You can't play Wales with a wide-wide game. It would have been suicide, and low and behold, the very first time we went wide, they turned it over and came inches away from running it back for a try! 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Oct 2015, 15:54
#11
18 Oct 2015, 15:54#11
 According to Mozart they are going to be a huge liability next week - what a farce he  makes of himself as per normal.  He does not remember what happened in the RC test insofar as the centers are concerned.  He must be showing signs of senility'.   Can remember about the 2007 EC - has made himself forget about the 2011 WC and forgotten what happened 2 months ago.
The top howling dog at it again.      
CA
carpetmuncher
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carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
18 Oct 2015, 16:59
#12
18 Oct 2015, 16:59#12
 do we need centers with the current game pattern.....we might as well field schalk at 12 and let damian hold the water bottles as they wont ever get the ball in a bit of space or attack with any kind of width
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
18 Oct 2015, 19:15
#13
18 Oct 2015, 19:15#13
 Mozart is always talking rubbish.  There has not been a no 12 center this past decade in SA who "has to hit the ball at pace....to run towards the gaps not the tackles. Right now he runs more like a good eighth man than a centre."   
That idea is being mentioned, but what is not mentioned is that it does not fit into the playing style used by the Springbok coaches.  The issue here is the inside centers do not get balls - making running into space possible.  The best they can do is to aim their run to the small space between defenders - but that is also discouraged by Mozart and DF.   For them the ideal center is Francois Steyn - the crashballer ambling straight at the first defender and virtually never break lines and beat defenders and would pace is less than half of De Allende's.
They would never state the quoted sentence insofar as Steyn is concerned - it does not apply to him since he is incapable to meet that requirement so to keep quiet is better.
I do not understand it either - what Mozart wrote above is directly in opposite to the stampkar rugby they advocate.  Yet he has the audacity to make a statement like that without taking into account the playing style of Meyer so strongly supported by him.  
Like CM said - we might as well play Burger at center.   In the last game Burger got the ball 41 times - 80% of which as first ball receiver directly from the scrummie.   De Allende got the ball 15 times.   So how can he get the ball in space if the first receiver was normally not when even the flyhalf - leave alone any center got the majority of the passes from the scrummie.  The forwards were first receiver from the scrummie.   That in itself was a farce that was real Bulls rugby from 2005.   An obvious killer of backline play.
And then the howling dogs have the audacity to write their junk on this site.
            


       
DE
DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
18 Oct 2015, 19:37
#14
18 Oct 2015, 19:37#14
Carpet, your take on the game, as has already been stated, is incorrect. 
CA
carpetmuncher
Pro1,667 posts
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carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
18 Oct 2015, 19:49
#15
18 Oct 2015, 19:49#15
another cheap shot by the fox....surprise surprise
i suggest you try to balance your books and stick to what you know.....your whole underlying understanding of the game is totally flawed but your narcissist way shines through again....this is not some cheap forums df if you cannot back up your claims with facts rather do the "adult"thing and shut your mouth
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Oct 2015, 20:20
#16
18 Oct 2015, 20:20#16
 Our centres contributed zip, except for Allende's turnover. They reacted, they never created....they are a weakness. Live with it.
DE
DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
18 Oct 2015, 20:42
#17
18 Oct 2015, 20:42#17
I backed them up. What is arrogant is running your mouth and producing nothing and then proclaiming that as fact. 
CA
carpetmuncher
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carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
18 Oct 2015, 20:57
#18
18 Oct 2015, 20:57#18
 agreed moz but one cannot blame the backline players with the crud they were meant to play with. de allende and kriel are juniors and this weekend they are coming up against the most experienced centre combo in the game. with most young players confidence is key and playing this kind of game with players that are clearly gifted ball runners is not the way forward.
fox this is not a competition relax but dont come on here and push a narrative that is in the minority. 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Oct 2015, 21:14
#19
18 Oct 2015, 21:14#19
Okay Muncher, let's drop the vitriol. I was simply sickened by Joubert and I'm loaded for bear. But let me respond to your comments.
When Jean went I saw it as a big loss of experience and I would have called up Frans. Not because either he or Jean were setting the world alight.....but a Pollard, Frans,  Allende combination feels more solid.
Kriel is fast, he has a step.....but he doesn't read the play. So he was awolfor 60 minutes yesterday. We can afford that.

Our centres were our biggest risk yesterday and they will be a bigger risk against NZ. Allende is likely to be stripped, Kriel won't bring up the line....they will probably miss some crucial tackles.

Could they be superb runners....no doubt. But the same could be said of Goosen and JJ. Rugby isn't about the best athlete...it's about competing effectively
BE
Beeno1
Captain40,032 posts
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Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
18 Oct 2015, 21:17
#20
18 Oct 2015, 21:17#20
 How often did Kriel get the ball? Its a tactics matter. Dull old fashioned easy to read and counter tac tics
CA
carpetmuncher
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carpetmuncherPro1,667 posts
18 Oct 2015, 21:42
#21
18 Oct 2015, 21:42#21
 moz i agree 100
frans should have been called up as it would have been a replacement tit for tact but there is some obvious sour grapes between the parties....franna would have added a much better dimension to our setup....now a junior combination of de allende and kriel is in the biggest tournament of there lives. not the best way to bring up the next generation of talent. 
francois in my view is one of the best 12's in the world. 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Oct 2015, 22:15
#22
18 Oct 2015, 22:15#22
 
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
19 Oct 2015, 13:14
#23
19 Oct 2015, 13:14#23

Still more metres gained and defenders beaten other than Nonu......funny how the our centres keep being brought up, giving the impression that every other centre out there was so much better


Try wake up to the reality of it all. DA was good with ball in hand, always gets over the advantage line with his physicality - his defence was good to, with only one miss, which was hardly a miss. He was better than Roberts and Giteau.


Kriel only got the ball 4 times, ran well twice and had a clean sheet in defence.....he was better than his opposite number and had a more productive day than Conrad Smith is an AB side that thrashed France. 

DE
DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
19 Oct 2015, 13:21
#24
19 Oct 2015, 13:21#24
I'll give Damian credit, because that was the first time all year that he really carried the ball up in very tight quarters. You must applaud Meyer for really tightening him up a bit. If Meyer isn't retained as Bok coach that could spell the end of Damian's development! 
SA
Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
19 Oct 2015, 13:26
#25
19 Oct 2015, 13:26#25

Bullshit, DA has done that and more in all his games.


The last time DA and Kriel played against Nonu and Smith, they had them for breakfast.......so damn right I back them......for DA is better than Nonu and Kriel is better than Smith.


Meyer s fuck all to do with DA's play......nothing has changed......he was beating defenders at will all s15  

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2015, 13:29
#26
19 Oct 2015, 13:29#26
 Desert Fox

Sorry - but Meyer's game plan on Saturday was the pits and his contribution to De Allende has been negative.   Your view that the 12 center is there only to bash things up is unadulterated BS.   A center must be able to do it - but if he only does that then he really is a dead loss as a center,       
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
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MozartCaptain49,914 posts
19 Oct 2015, 13:38
#27
19 Oct 2015, 13:38#27
 Lets be honest, our centres were never tested at all. There was no open field running by Wales to defend. The Boks had 59% of the possession and 61% of the territory. The Welsh backs were totally marginalised.  Still our guys made no difference to the outcome....Kriel piled up a few metres at the end because he got big space and Allende tractored away without ever providing a moment where Wales were in danger.
We now have gone through 5 WC games with just a few moments against the Eagles where our centres made a difference. Why? Because they have no vision. Allende has done almost nothing at pace....he is running like an 8th man....tractoring away.
And when they have backs running at them in space, things could get ugly. For our semi, the centre situation remains a big insolvable concern.
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Saffolk
Captain30,741 posts
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Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
19 Oct 2015, 13:43
#28
19 Oct 2015, 13:43#28

Ah so we get the better of the Welsh centres and that's down to our boys not been tested......if we had 59% of the possession, they will have had 41%.......more than enough to work with.


Its just the usual bullshit.......our boys were amongst the most productive of the weekend and that is a FACT


The only centre to really stand out was Nonu


Centre concern - what utter rubbish  

DE
DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
19 Oct 2015, 13:43
#29
19 Oct 2015, 13:43#29
Actually, it is the first time in his career to date that he isn't being used as a wing. He has developed more under Meyer than all his time with the Stormers. And no Dave, he didn't play like that at all in the RC. He got some ball against NZ when play became unstructured and made some ground but there were a lot of errors throughout that game from him and still lots of weak defending. I have noticed that since the WC he has been much less reactive. In the RC and Super XV especially, h e literally walked around without a care in the world and went for whoever he felt like going for. It was ruthlessly exposed in the RC, but I haven't seen that. So just as I will credit Damian for the work he has put in, I must applaud Meyer for actually working on these things in the first place. 
But time will tell how Damian and Kriel cope. I'm taking this step by step, if Damian and Kriel can outplay the All Black centres I will back them wholeheartedly to win the WC! But I'm losing faith in Kriel. Whereas I had Damian down as the worst of the two initially, Kriel has gone backwards in every game. I will feel much better if Serf plays 13. It's the logical thing to do, and then have Kriel on the bench who can cover multiple positions.
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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2015, 14:03
#30
19 Oct 2015, 14:03#30
 Mozart
You are incapable to evaluate player performance assessments because your prjudice takes over completely and any sense you may have goes out of the window.
What you fail to even note is that the vast majority of possession went to forwards and not even the flyhalf.  Pollard was too a substantial degree cut out from ball receipt and even more so De Allende.  The latter rarely got the ball from Pollard and when he got the ball from Pollard or the stand-in flyhalf Burger,  the defenders was on top of him.   What do you expect from De Allende in any event under such circu mstances?
Your tractoring story shows how dumb you really are when it comes to rugby issues.       
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DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
19 Oct 2015, 14:18
#31
19 Oct 2015, 14:18#31
Michael, this goes further back than one test, and the claims that he isn't creating anything are legitimate. So how is what Moz is saying stupid? Moz and I were not the ones who were expecting these centres to run riot against Wales either. We noted the Welsh defence was good at cutting the backs out of the equation. Lets be honest, in all his tests what has Damian created? One pass that assisted a try. NZ and AUS have playmakers at 12 that expand attacking movements, we don't.
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clevermike
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2015, 14:28
#32
19 Oct 2015, 14:28#32
 The claims that De All ende does not create anything is confined to you and Mozart - virtually nobody else believe that jargon of yours.
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DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
19 Oct 2015, 14:37
#33
19 Oct 2015, 14:37#33
T hen tell me, what has he created in this WC? Aside from the pass to Habana for the try. 
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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2015, 14:48
#34
19 Oct 2015, 14:48#34
 All this because you never understand what is going on on the field of play.  Just watch what happened in the Scotland game with Pietersen second try and start thinking about it.  
You frankly do not understand that putting a team on the front foot and delivering balls quickly has no impact on team performance and create further opportunities for the team - so what is the use of even dis cussing this aspect with you.  .     
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DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
19 Oct 2015, 15:06
#35
19 Oct 2015, 15:06#35
I understand perfectly well how centres are supposed to operate Michael. But it appears you jumped on a bandwagon and don't know why!
Let me tell you what happened with JPs try. From the maul, JP stood in at first receiver with Damian outside him and Pollard behind them. And inverted triangle. Two defenders in the area. D1 goes in on Du Preez, D2 completely ignores Damian and goes for JP. D2 latches onto JP but all to no avail as he is dragged to and over the try line. At what point did Damain do anything? And JP only scored one try. 
Against Samoa Damian did not setup a try. He set up the next phase. Willie and Jean created that movement to put JP away for his second try. 
You see? You ascribe additional information to flesh out the interpretation to suit you. In a Marcus analysis that would have been 12 sets up next phase with a strong carry beating the drift with an inside dart. And golly gosh waddya know? That's exactly what I did do! LMAO. That is why I am more accurate than you Michael. I say it how it is. I let the film speak for itself. 
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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2015, 15:11
#36
19 Oct 2015, 15:11#36
 Balls as per normal - De Allende carried the ball up to 1 meter out and delivers is back to Diu Preez who passed it to Pietersen.  De Allende w as nowhere in sight - he was in the maul.  
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DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
19 Oct 2015, 15:31
#37
19 Oct 2015, 15:31#37
Actually, th e ruck was formed and the clearout wasn't immediate. Du Preez passed behind Strauss, running a decoy line, to Willie. Still two defenders to beat now, but with Willie we have a 3v2. Willie passes to Jean as D1 charges into him, Jean draws D2 and passes to JP putting JP away for the try. That's how it happened. Sorry to burst your bubble. 
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Ceradyne
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CeradynePro9,374 posts
19 Oct 2015, 15:57
#38
19 Oct 2015, 15:57#38
 clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 20146RE: The Centers...not as poor as predicted
October 19, 2015, 14:28:16

 The claims that De Allende does not create anything is confined to you and Mozart - virtually nobody else believe that jargon of yours.


  •  0 Likes

I posted this elsewhere:

"I made a remark at the 67th min of the game that De Allende hasn't passed the ball once up till then. I have just checked the final stats:

Kicked - 0, Passed - 3. Ran - 11. Kriel only really became  "visible" in the last part of the  game........ De Allende started passing the ball after 67 min................. In the 11 times that he ran the ball, he made 11 metres. 

Kriel got the ball eight times, passed it three times and ran it five times and made 40m of ground.

IMO, if you look at the metres gained, De Allende had to be running sideways for most of the time becuase he beat three defenders but had no clean breaks. Kriel only had five runs but had one clean break and beat one defender. In short, when he got the ball we went forward.

I don't know if I am 100% on the money with my argument but that is the way I see it. "

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clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Oct 2015, 16:10
#39
19 Oct 2015, 16:10#39
 Ceradunce
What do you involve yourself in discussions between grown-ups, especially since you are clearly absolutely clueless as per normal.
De Allende carried the ball 59  meters over the gain line.  How the hell can he run sideways and make that kind of territory running "side-ways".    Your posting si as clueless as you are - not worth reading.    
 
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DezertFox
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DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
19 Oct 2015, 16:20
#40
19 Oct 2015, 16:20#40
 Says the adult. Or should I say, man baby:

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