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The Doubters

Started by Devil's Advocate72 REPLIES1,347 VIEWS· 09 Sept 2015, 12:26
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DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:26
#1
09 Sept 2015, 12:26#1
I'm curious
All the doubters on here saying that SA will exit this world cup early, that profess to know everything there is to know about the game and what players should be played, and have categorically stated multiple times that SA will leave the tournament early, and have no chance at all to win the world cup.
I respect all opinions, so this is not to question your individual opinions, all I am asking though, is after all your posts slating the Springboks and stating they will never ever do well with this selected team, my question is this.
If they do win it, and a few teams could, but if SA do take this trophy home, does that mean you will openly confess to knowing nothing about team players and selections.  Would it mean that they were just lucky a few times and you were always correct but never anticipated "that" intercept try in the quarters or "that" long distance drop goal in the semi, or "that" game saving tackle in the final that got them through.
Just curious, are you stating as a matter of fact by putting your own reputation for rugby a.c.u.m.e. n on the line here and now by saying, they still have absolutely no chance in hell of winning the world cup, as I have been reading from certain posters on here over and over.



CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:30
#2
09 Sept 2015, 12:30#2
 DA
If I am wrong I always admit it - but those who swear that the squad selected is based on the best players a vailable will never admit that they have been wrong. 
DE
Denny
Captain12,893 posts
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:39
#3
09 Sept 2015, 12:39#3
 The same Doubters or Prophets of Doom also dissed the Boks in  2007.....those same doubters then U Turned and blamed the win on an easy draw. So......
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:41
#4
09 Sept 2015, 12:41#4
 
Listen up smartass ... if you haven't figured it out yet then you never will.

Zuma's Goats have as much chance of winning the trophy as Namibia do.

What I'm saying is that the Goats could've gone abroad with a better team ... a much better team.

A team that would have given them a better shot than this excuse of a squad we see now.

We saw New Zealand being awarded the trophy in 2011 ... so anything is possible.

That doesn't change the fact that the Goats have a weak squad ... old, tired, injured and off form.

Let's flip it around ... if the Goats do exit early ... will you be acknowledging what we already know about you ... that you have little to zero understanding of the game of rugby?




CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:41
#5
09 Sept 2015, 12:41#5
 Denny
Sorry - I was pretty confident in 2007 and went to France to watch them play.   
DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:44
#6
09 Sept 2015, 12:44#6
Agreed Denny
So the question remains, given all possible scenarios regarding the draw going for or against us, Mike, do you still insist we have no chance in hell at all of winning it  
CL
CleanCut
Pro9,905 posts
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:46
#7
09 Sept 2015, 12:46#7
 
No chance ... none what so fo- kken ever.

Is that clear enough?
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:46
#8
09 Sept 2015, 12:46#8
DA
 Definitely no chance at all I am afraid - and at this stage I do think we have no chance getting past the quarters.  
DE
Denny
Captain12,893 posts
DE
DennyCaptain12,893 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:48
#9
09 Sept 2015, 12:48#9
 Mickey and some others have already stated that the Boks will make an early exit....as early as the quarters but there's no harm in asking for confirmation.
DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:51
#10
09 Sept 2015, 12:51#10
CleanCut
 
Status: Senior player 
Posts: 2751RE: The Doubters
September 09, 2015, 12:41:45

Let's flip it around ... if the Goats do exit early ... will you be acknowledging what we already know about you ... that you have little to zero understanding of the game of rugby?


Hello CC
It's amazing how my little understanding of the game predicted more wins for the Springboks in the last twelve months compared to others on here, I just don't need to shove it in people's faces like some on here, or moving the goalposts and changing it to ooohhh actually I meant this, and that.... I really did.... prove me wrong because you just assumed I meant this and that
When they are wrong, they blame everything besides their kids
DA
Devil's Advocate
Pro7,008 posts
DA
Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
09 Sept 2015, 12:53
#11
09 Sept 2015, 12:53#11
CleanCut
 
Status: Senior player 
Posts: 2753RE: The Doubters
September 09, 2015, 12:46:05

 
No chance ... none what so fo-kken ever.

Is that clear enough?

clevermike
 
Status: Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 19082RE: The Doubters
September 09, 2015, 12:46:36

DA
 Definitely no chance at all I am afraid - and at this stage I do think we have no chance getting past the quarters.  



    Thank you for the confirmations
     
    CL
    CleanCut
    Pro9,905 posts
    CL
    CleanCutPro9,905 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 12:55
    #12
    09 Sept 2015, 12:55#12
     
    Seeing as you're so clued up ... will the Goats come home with the trophy ...

    A simple yes or no will suffice.







    DE
    Denny
    Captain12,893 posts
    DE
    DennyCaptain12,893 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 12:58
    #13
    09 Sept 2015, 12:58#13
     Nice and healthy...a board divided.
    CL
    CleanCut
    Pro9,905 posts
    CL
    CleanCutPro9,905 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 13:01
    #14
    09 Sept 2015, 13:01#14
     
    Well common, Baby ... let's have your prediction ...


    DA
    Devil's Advocate
    Pro7,008 posts
    DA
    Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 13:01
    #15
    09 Sept 2015, 13:01#15
    I like your sarcasm CC
    It's far better than your normal foul stenching disgusting drivel, so please try keep it up.
    I don't mind putting it officially on record here that I have no doubt in my mind that I think the Springboks can win this world cup.  I believe anything is possible.
    If I had to answer do I think they have more of a chance of exiting early before the quarter finals, or making it to the final and winning it, I would easily say the latter.
    I hope that satisfies your curiosity 
    DE
    Denny
    Captain12,893 posts
    DE
    DennyCaptain12,893 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 13:05
    #16
    09 Sept 2015, 13:05#16
     For the record I'm saying the Boks will win their quarterfinal.
    BE
    Beeno1
    Captain40,032 posts
    BE
    Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 13:25
    #17
    09 Sept 2015, 13:25#17
     If Poite refs a game we play against a decent side we are in trouble. No doubt he is being well funded.
    The simple facts are that this bok side is not in a good place due to injuries, quotas and poor selections. I also fear Meyer may resort to kick and chaseas his strategy.
    That said they could still win the RWC. Frankly nobody can really know for sure the form of a number of pla yers - hence all the uncertainty. 

    MO
    moolaa
    Pro2,380 posts
    MO
    moolaaPro2,380 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 13:32
    #18
    09 Sept 2015, 13:32#18
     InjuriesQuotasSelectionsPoiteAny other referee in the GalaxyHasbeeno, off hand can you think of any more snivelling excuses before the RWC??Time to grow a pair....
    DA
    Devil's Advocate
    Pro7,008 posts
    DA
    Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 13:48
    #19
    09 Sept 2015, 13:48#19
    Yes moolaa
    That's why I mentioned the excuses earlier
    I just want them to state it now for a definite, as I have seen in some posts.
    My concern is though, that the above mentioned excuses will come in to play, should the Springboks do well... with many other excuses to follow
    At least Mike and CC have been forthright in their predictions
    MO
    Mozart
    Captain49,914 posts
    MO
    MozartCaptain49,914 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 14:30
    #20
    09 Sept 2015, 14:30#20

    Hold on....let's be clear here. Beating NZ in the semi would be against the odds no matter what team we choose. So in saying the Bok team will be proven to be failures, they would have to exit in the Quarter Finals or before. 

     

     

    So one has to assume the doubters are saying they are going to exit in the QF or before....correct me if I'm wrong.

    DA
    Devil's Advocate
    Pro7,008 posts
    DA
    Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 14:49
    #21
    09 Sept 2015, 14:49#21
    That's a fair assessment Moz, I would agree to that  
    SA
    Saffolk
    Captain30,741 posts
    SA
    Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 15:04
    #22
    09 Sept 2015, 15:04#22

    If we win the WC I will openly admit I got it wrong if players like Kirchner, Mvovo, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, du Preez, Jannie, Brits, Matfield, Louw and Alberts are involved in that victory.


    There is no way in hell it will happen......for these players are not close to being the best we have to offer and useless Meyer has been exposed for his rugby ignorance in the last 18 months......hell 8 losses out of our last 13 major tests says it all.


    You simply cant beat the best in the world with Kirchner, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, Matfield, Louw and Alberts in your side.....that's half a side of liabilities. 


    Not going to happen......and the majority of the supporters share my view......just check out facebook and twitter every day.

    DA
    Devil's Advocate
    Pro7,008 posts
    DA
    Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 15:19
    #23
    09 Sept 2015, 15:19#23
    Saffex
     
    Status: Hall Of Fame 
    Posts: 13427RE: The Doubters
    September 09, 2015, 15:04:03

    If we win the WC I will openly admit I got it wrong if players like Kirchner, Mvovo, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, du Preez, Jannie, Brits, Matfield, Louw and Alberts are involved in that victory.


    There is no way in hell it will happen......for these players are not close to being the best we have to offer and useless Meyer has been exposed for his rugby ignorance in the last 18 months......hell 8 losses out of our last 13 major tests says it all.


    You simply cant beat the best in the world with Kirchner, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, Matfield, Louw and Alberts in your side.....that's half a side of liabilities. 


    Not going to happen......and the majority of the supporters share my view......just check out facebook and twitter every day.


    I appreciate the honesty, but going on the info you have provided above here, that gives you a lot of "outs" if we proceed into the playoffs or even win it.
    You just named 11 players who could affect the outcome of any game leading up to and including the playoffs, and even after till the final.  
    So.... if only a few players that you have mentioned above play in any given game up to, and including the final, and we won, would you say you got it wrong?
    Just looking for clarity here, not an argument, because your lawyer side could come out and say you only said if all those players played in that particular game or day, they would not win, not if only a few of the players that you mentioned here played at any given time.
    CL
    clevermike
    Coach57,555 posts
    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 16:20
    #24
    09 Sept 2015, 16:20#24
     DA
    If I am wrong about getting beaten in the quarters it will largely depend on the team Meyer selects for the quarters.  He can leave out most of the passengers from the squad - but even that would not be possible.   There are 15 players from the 2011 failed campaign in the squad and you need a team of 23 players - so at least 6 to 8 of the failures will be in the match day 23.   That is a major problem and the squad will not allow for any form of winning rugby.   
    The only team that would have a small chance in the Quarters will be the following:-
    15  Le Roux14  Mvovo13  Kriel12  De Allende11  Habana10  Lambie 9   ??????? 8   Vermeulen 7   Du Toit 6   ???????? 5   De Jager 4   Etzebeth 3   Malherbe 2   Du Plessis 1   Mtawarira
    The squad situation iro of scrummies and loosies is such a mess that it is impossible to identify reasonably performing team members at this stage.   The main problem is what to do with De Villiers and Matfield - they are the worst handicaps selected by Meyer - and that at captain and vice-captain.
    The bench  will even be a worse problem.   If the above is selected to start - the bench will be weak because of squad selection.
    THE PROBLEM REMAINS - THE SQUAD WAS SELECTED BASICALLY ON REPUTATION AND THAT IS A VERY QUESTIONABLE SELECTION NORM.   .          
    DA
    Devil's Advocate
    Pro7,008 posts
    DA
    Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 16:45
    #25
    09 Sept 2015, 16:45#25
    Here is the thing Mike
    I want people to make a statement now, because I want to see how things fare.
    What you can't do is say, if these exact 5, 6 or 8 players play in a particular game then we will win or lose, because say you make a statement that if these specific 8 players are in the side on that day, and say only 6 play and two don't, then your "out" could be that not all 8 names you mentioned played, which you stipulated, so you can't be wrong on the win or the loss.  It's impossible to gauge who will take the field in any game.  I am talking about the squads chances.... period.
    That's why I made it a simple question.
    With this selected group of SA players, will they, or won't they make it past the quarter finals?.  
    I don't need to hear, well if this one plays, and this one doesn't, or if this guy is fit and this one is as well.  The other sides all run the same risk of players not playing on a particular day so you can never compare, otherwise we will be saying yes well it's only because McCaw wasn't playing etc etc
    Yes or no.... will we get past the quarter final stage, and for those that say yes like I do, if you do say yes, is this side good enough to win it.
    SA
    Saffolk
    Captain30,741 posts
    SA
    Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 17:36
    #26
    09 Sept 2015, 17:36#26

    No we could win the WC if the following side played:


    15. Willie 14. JP 13. Kriel 12. de Allende 11. Habana 10. Pollard 9. Paige 1. Beast 2. Bismark 3. Coenie 4. Etzebeth 5. Lood 6. Kolisi 7. PSDT 8. Vermeulen


    Its not going to happen though


    Your best bet is to ask me who will win the QF once the Bok side is announced for that game......if it contains the likes of Kirchner, Jean, Morne, Pienaar, Matfield, Louw and Alberts in it.....we WILL lose

    DA
    Devil's Advocate
    Pro7,008 posts
    DA
    Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 21:55
    #27
    09 Sept 2015, 21:55#27
    Ok, fair enough Dave
    But.... I want a statement from you and other posters here on the squad chosen only, that's all, not the team you or others prefer on any given day, because all the comments here about them not making it far in this world cup is based on this team that Meyer has chosen to represent SA, not the compilation chosen per game which we all have different ideas about
    Given all the different team selections that could take place through form, injury etc etc during the world cup, I ask again, can this team win the world cup.
    That is all I want to know.... irrespective of the team chosen on any given day, can they lift this world cup?
    I ask because from the earlier comments on other threads, the impression is, Meyer could play any of his chosen team and still lose or not even get past the quarters
    So I ask again, and it is a fair question, if Meyer chooses players in any form or position from the squad that is going, can they win this world cup with only the chosen players as we know it
    CL
    clevermike
    Coach57,555 posts
    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 22:38
    #28
    09 Sept 2015, 22:38#28
    DA
     You missed really what I wrote - I said no the Springboks wont get past the quarterfinal.   I said there is a small chance that I may be wrong depending on the team taking the field, but also implied that it is extremely unlikely that the team I quoted takes the field - so my statement remains - the Springboks will lose in the quarterfinal.      
    SA
    Saffolk
    Captain30,741 posts
    SA
    Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
    09 Sept 2015, 23:18
    #29
    09 Sept 2015, 23:18#29
    The team can win the world cup if it's the team I selected from the squad.
    But clueless Meyer 's side will look anything like my side. Therefore if you want a definitive answer from me then I will say that thanks to Meyers selections the team cannot win the WC.
    BE
    becs
    Pro4,378 posts
    BE
    becsPro4,378 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 02:36
    #30
    10 Sept 2015, 02:36#30
     What Saffex is saying is that, if he gets the shout to help out with selection/Coaching etc whilst you are over here, you can, and most likely will, win the WC. If not, it's really not going to happen for you  
    Hope that clears things up. 
    MO
    MonsterBok
    Club Pro442 posts
    MO
    MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 04:38
    #31
    10 Sept 2015, 04:38#31
    Anything is possible,Injuries during the pool stages may be detrimental or be a blessing in disguise. I am definitely not in favour of a number of the selection, and like many sit here scratching my head. But no matter how much scratching I do, it simply won't change the selections made. Hell, when the team was announced I wanted to burn everything I owned that had a Springbok emblem on and go and cry in the corner.I, like all of you havent even seen enough of Rudy to warrant me believing that he is nothing other than a Quota player, BUT non of us can change that and it's only going to get worse.For me the question is DO I SUPPORT THE SPRINGBOKS OR NOT??
    Answer = With pain in my heart and all the emotions , my answer is f**K YES!!
    AJ
    Arthur John
    Pro1,748 posts
    AJ
    Arthur JohnPro1,748 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 06:28
    #32
    10 Sept 2015, 06:28#32
     I have made a bet that the Boks do not get into the last 4.
    MO
    MonsterBok
    Club Pro442 posts
    MO
    MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 06:48
    #33
    10 Sept 2015, 06:48#33
    AJ,I hear you, I'm optimistic but I wont be betting my house either way. I certainly wont be wishing them to fail. Success is unlikely but so was France reaching the last final and almost winning.
    CL
    CleanCut
    Pro9,905 posts
    CL
    CleanCutPro9,905 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 07:02
    #34
    10 Sept 2015, 07:02#34
     
    OK DA ... so losing in the quarters would constitute exiting early, right?

    A semi final is rather late into the competition.

    With the current squad ... no matter who's selected ... yes ... we'll exit early.

    Oh and Dense, I see you're suddenly not so sure about us bringing the trophy home.

    How come??

    What had you change your mind?

    Mozart's comment perhaps?

    Any chance you can come up with something of your own?

    Just a question.

    Mozart ... I take it you're saying into the semis with a loss to the All Blacks then, right?

    Had we only taken our best ... it could easily have been into the final against whomever ...  with the trophy in hand, returning home with us.

    Goooooooo Japan!!!!!!!








    DA
    Devil's Advocate
    Pro7,008 posts
    DA
    Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 08:27
    #35
    10 Sept 2015, 08:27#35
    Thanks for the comments guys
    At least now there are more definitive answers from some posters here
    We will all never have the side we want on the field in any given game, even if we had all the right players going over, that's why I asked this question.
    I will state here that I do believe we can win, as can other sides, but I have no doubt we are better team than just a quarter final position.
    SA
    Saffolk
    Captain30,741 posts
    SA
    Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 08:37
    #36
    10 Sept 2015, 08:37#36
    Had the 31 best players been selected we would have been in a very strong position to win the WC. 
    We have more worthy young talent than we have ever had.
    Sadly we have an incompetent coach who is hell bent on experience at the expense of merit.
    Meyer has let us down and sells us short with his pathetic squad selection.
    DA
    Devil's Advocate
    Pro7,008 posts
    DA
    Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 08:57
    #37
    10 Sept 2015, 08:57#37
    Dave, I think experience won us the last world cup, and it's hard to dispute that it didn't.
    Not to say merit or current form is not a contributing factor on who should play or represent their country, because there I agree with you, I'm just saying that in the high pressure moments of any game, whether it be a quarter, semi or final, it's the experience that counts for me, and not the current form or merit.
    You may have different thoughts about that, and that's cool, but that's my take on it.
    One question:
    It's 21-19 in the final, and SA are down by 2 points  and you have a penalty 43 meters out, and the time is 79.50 sec
    Who takes it?
     
    MO
    MonsterBok
    Club Pro442 posts
    MO
    MonsterBokClub Pro442 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 09:16
    #38
    10 Sept 2015, 09:16#38
    Lambie.  
    DA
    Devil's Advocate
    Pro7,008 posts
    DA
    Devil's AdvocatePro7,008 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 09:23
    #39
    10 Sept 2015, 09:23#39
    M Steyn  
    SA
    Saffolk
    Captain30,741 posts
    SA
    Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
    10 Sept 2015, 13:38
    #40
    10 Sept 2015, 13:38#40

    Who takes it - Pollard as he is my 10 and kicker, failing which it would be Lambie my bench 10 if he happened to be on at the time.


    I don't buy into the whole experience thing......if you choose players for their experience and they are not the best in their positions, they wont get you to the semi or the final.


    A new coach should identify his best players and 4 years into his tenure those players should have built up enough experience.....hell even youngsters like Etzebeth and Willie have plenty of test experience.


    But I have always maintained that we have a core of experienced players to lean on who are merit squad players as well.......Willie, JP, Habana, Frans Steyn, Lambie, Hougaard, Beast, Bismark, Strauss, Etzebeth, Brussouw and Vermeulen offer more than enough experience to draw on. The rest of the squad should have been made up of our talented youngsters.


    The problem with Meyer is that he has overdone the experience thing at the expense of far better players and in the process sold us short.

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