The end of an era in rugby history - retirement of players

It is only natural that from time to time top players announce their retirement from international rugby - mostly on the basis of aging and the fact that the body cannot continue to take the punishment  attached to playing international rugby.   Some of the most well-known rugby players have announced their retirement since the last workd cup.
The reasons for retirement mostly stem from -
^   inevitable aging of players; *    the battering the body received playing international rugby and resultant injuries; and*    financial incentives through prolonging playing careers by playing club rugby in Europe and Japan offering very favourable contrcting conditions.
However, retirement in World Cup Years is rare and the reason must be seen in the context of xompetition and the glory attached to winning of the clubs.   Players like Jean de Villiers would walk through fire to get their bodies back in shape to be part of the Works Cup squad.  On the other hand ever since 1987 management has been resultant to change World Cup winning teams - even though there were clear indications that there was a downward trend in performances of players.   Cynics claim this lack of team renewal prevented countries from winning successive world cup tournaments.   We will see in the next two weeks whether the All Blacks will be able to bug this trend.   
However, irrespective of what happened there will be a substantial number of retirees from international rugby.   In some cases the number of retirees will be minimal - in others very substantial.   In the NH countries most countries playing 6 nations rugby - with the exception of Ireland - will not be affected in a major way.  However, the situation is vastly different in especially Nw Zealand an South Africa - so lets look at the present scenario in those two countries more specifically.
New Zealand
The most  likely retirees are Conrad Smith, Ma;a Nonu, Dan Carter, Jerome Kaino, Liam Messam, Ritchie McCaw. kevin mealamu and Tony Woodc ock.
Unlike what happened in South Africa there has been succession planning and as a result the playing to replace the key players are well advanced and the players coming through will not be reducing the effectiveness of the All Blacks as a top team.  The best-known players replacing the retirees already have substantial test experience.  The top replacement players are -
*   Malekai Fekkitoa at 13*   Beaudon Barrett, Aaron Cruden and Lima Sopoaga at flyhalf; and*   Sam Cane and Ardie Savea at 7*   Dane Coles and Codie Taylor at hoojer 
I did not mention Nene Milner-Skudder - since he is in my opinion already an established top class wing - but could also add Charles Piutau to that mix.  
That leaves some gabs to be filled - but not a real crisis situation.
South Africa
However, the position in South Africa is different inasmuch as there were only haphazard replacement strategies used.  However, though some players may continue in the short term with their international careers (mostly not fpr more than 2 years) the following are on the way out:-
Zane Kirchner, JP Pietersen, Bryan Habana, Jean de Villiers, Morne Steyn; Fourie du Preez, Ruan Pienaar, Willem Alberts, Schalk Burger, Francois Louw, Victor Matfield, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Schalk Brits, Tendai Matawarira,
There are a number of contenders - mostly with no or minimal test exposure, but what is clear is that the above will have to be replaced by June 2016 or at the latest two years after that date.  
Everyone would have a different list of replacement players and I leave it to Dave - whose lists are basically near to endless - but I can foresee endless discussion of the replacement players on this site in future.   I also have my own list - but would prefer to see how the players go in Super Rugby before real ly starting to look at specific replacements.      
                    .    

 
South Africa is usually a decade or so behind the rest of the world in most things and having the staunch conservative approach that Dumbass Meyer's brought to the mix has probably added another decade to the whole set up.

Let's face it South Africa have regressed to what we see today.

Other nations like Japan have moved forward. They improve each year and it's noticeable.

Look how they thumped the Goats this year. Outplayed them completely. 

South Africa are losers in most sporting codes, especially in team competitions where quotas are enforced and their ret-ard-ed thinking hampers any possible advancement.

For example ... South Africa supposedly one of the the more advanced countries on the continent struggle to beat other African soccer teams that are made up with players that live in villages scattered across their country. Villages that have never seen what it's like to have indoor plumbing. They cook their food using an outside fire, and gather their water in buckets from the nearby sewage infested river.

It's a laugh a minute that this country cannot out perform these disadvantaged nations ... and it's ok with everyone.

They can't even qualify for the soccer world cup and struggle at the best of times to even qualify for the African Cup of Nations. 

The less said about the Proteas cricket team the better. Decades have passed and they're yet to contest a cricket world cup final.

They'll all losers.

Rugby has gone down the same road and while Meyer's at the helm we can expect an extended run from the likes of Habana, Du Preez, Matfield, Louw, Jannie, Beast, Alberts, Burger, Kirschner, Morne Steyn, JP Pietersen and Pienaar ... and who know, he may even convince a few retired stars of yester-year to return to active duty.

That's just the way it is.

 CC
I think that I would keep this to rugby - I swear every time I see Bafana playing anywhere.   The problem in fact start at school level and the fact is that 90% of the schools are in constant crisis producing nothing in academics or sport. 
I agree with you about Meyer, but I do not think even he - if he is retained as a coach - would be able to continue with the lot of breakdown wrecks he is trying to recycle all the time.  He will have to bring in new players - whether he likes it or not.
I personally would like to see him replaced - his mind is mired in Bulls rugby of a decade ago and it is not going to work out in future. ago    
 

 mike, I think that your list could be completed:

Centers (to replace Nonu, C. Smith, and at least during 2016 SBW):

- M. Feikitoa
- R. Crotty
- G. Moala. He made his debut against Samoa and translated his SR form
- R. Ranger. He's coming back from France and if he regains his previous-depart form he's one of the bests.

Loose forward (to replace McCaw, messam and kaino):

- S. Cane
- M. Todd. McCaw's repalcement at saders and IMO better than Cane at least at SR level. He have had few opportunities at test level and didn't disappointed
- A. Savea. Didn't debut yet but according to his SR performances he'll be in the frame. With this trio the openside will be well covered
- Akira Ioane. He plays blindside and nº8 and even if he's yet to debut everything points that he'll outstand also at test level. I see him as Read's replacement as the AB nº8 and the best nº8 in the world.

Crotty is very average, move on from him  

 Crotty is not average, he's a very good center who knows what is required for playing at both centers, with playmaking abilities, who alwys choose the right option, good defender and capable of organizing the defense. Watch last year's 51-20 thumping of the aussies at the RC, his first half before injuring is a masterclass of how a 13 should play. At this moment he's light years ahead of your current incunbent 13, Kriel.

He has not the natural abilty to beat defenders and break lines other players like Feikitoa, Moala, Ranger or de Allende have but this doesn't mean he's average. He's a diferent kind of player who offers other possibilities and as we are here talking about possible replacements, he's another option

 He plays very well when has the Black jersey on. Having players with talent around you helps as does having a clear system & top coaches.

 ABF
I specifically did nit mention SBW - because we never know what dollar h e will chase next.  His middle name should have been Dollarbill!!! 
I am afraid I left out Crotty - because in my opinion he really is very, very average and a questionable international player.   We differ there - and would like to be convinced otherwise.  I was impressed by George Moala - did very, very well on Super 15 level and am sure he would make the grade.   My man at 13 remains Fekitoa with Moala at 12.
Michael Todd impressed me in some Super 15 games - but I am afraid I prefer Sam Cane and perhaps Todd should move to blindside - my flank forwards would be - 
*   openside - Sam Vane and Ardie Savea*   Blindisde - G Ioane and Michael Todd.       

I allways though Crotty was a poor centre. In fact he often looks as bad as many of the SA centres in the tournament. 
The other Crusader with bandages on his head all the time reminds for of a South African flyhalf. He is a weak fullback, but a decent flyhalf. 

Although I will admit when I saw him playing at test level I was surprised by how good a game he had. 

 @saffex,

"Crotty is not fit enough to tie Kriel's bootlaces"

really? what has Kriel done appart from his try against the AB when he beat an injured Nonu?
Nothing. He's one of the most hyped player coz there's no other saffa center able to play at test level. He was average at SR playing FB. Average attacking at test level and quite deficient in defense. He still has to learn what the center job requires.

@mike,

"a questionable international player."?

since when? how can he be a questionable international player if everytime he played international games he had a very good performance, including his masterclass against the aussies or the deciding try against Ireland.

The ability to beat defenders or crash the opposite defense is not the only factor to be considered. It could be the most spectacular and easy to see but not the only factor as you both seem to consider.
Feikitoa and Moala are the same type of player. A more balanced pair of centers for a more balanced backline could require another type of player alongside one of them.
He's a good diferent option and definitively up to test level as he proved

Using age and weight to measure a players performance- is not thinking.It is just using stereotype and being dogmatic.
Or comparing a players performance at Test level- compared to Curry Cup is laughable. Their is far more time and space in Curry Cup rugby- especially without Boks playing. 
Habana is way past his best- but still much better than anything else we have on the left wing. Even JP who many were writing off- is much better than any wing we have in SA.
Fourie Dupreez is another player past his best- but still much better than anything else we have.

 yeah, Nonu was injured and he went off just after the try,..... a shoulder injury that impeded him the tackling.


"its not so much what Kriel has done at test level to date given how few tests he has played but more about the obvious talent this kid has......he looks an awesome prospect"

didn't say anything about his future, from the very begining I said "at this moment" ("At this moment he's (Crotty) light years ahead of your current incunbent 13, Kriel.") and from the very beginning defend him as another option who offers diferent abilities , not as the best center in NZ.

As I said there are other options in Feikitoa, Moala or Rene Ranger.

Saffex, consistently the supporter for young up and coming talent in the Boks ranks
Kriel is an unproven talent at the test level in my opinion. 
Fekitoa is a far more talented and proven player even though he is still a backup for the ABs. 
Crotty is also way ahead of Kriel as he is a very well rounded player (defensively and on attack) and reads the game very well. Crotty can't even make the AB team as a backup that is how much depth we have.
SBW is also better even though he is usually playing at 12.
We will see how Kriel does against C. Smith this weekend. Kriel seems to have better speed but Smith is a wiley old fox so it will be an interesting matchup.

 In age order:

- M. Feikitoa. 23 years old. 13 test caps, 33 SR caps

- G. Moala.    24 yo.           1 test cap.   40 SR

- R. Crotty.    27 yo           13 test caps.  95 SR

- R. Ranger.   29 yo             6 test caps.  65 Sr caps

 Depth to burn Saffex, read ABFs list & weep

New Zealand has more centre depth than any country. As one gets older, their is a new young one to replace them. 
I would be more concerned about our centres passing skills and running lines.

 SB
I would be more concerned about our backline coaching - or lack thereof - not at the aspects raised by you about two players with a sum-total of 6 tests as a center combination.  More experience and better coaching would be the requirement.  

Agree on the coaching comment CleverMike. 
Even if Kriel & de Allende have talent will they receive the right coaching to develop that talent & deliver? Will they be put into a structure and game plan that allows them to deliver. With the Boks & a lot of the Super 15 teams in SA this is doubtful.

 Saffex, the future is impossible to predict but this weekend we will have the answer to which backline is better (on the day at least). 
Will the Bok backs see the ball? I predict that they won't see as m uch as the ABs backs.

JW
I think there are some changes coming through in the coaching set-up on Super 15 level.   In the case of De Allende I think Eddie Jones will get a lot more out of him and with Kriel the same can be expected from the coaching of Nollis Marais.  
The dead backline coaches of the past has bitten the dust and has been dismissed and from what i have seen thus far in CC after departure of the donkey coaches there has been much better 15 man rugby played by both WP and the Bulls.
It will take some time before a real 15 man game plan works itself through -but I think the improvement will be come noticeable next year.  The donkey coaches had another problem as well - they copied Meyer's approach and would not renew the team keeping  on playing the has-beens and never-has-beens. 
What I call the cancer in SA rugby is slowly being removed and that could only be a positive development.  

Well given I think our pack is better than yours, I'm predicting we will get more of the ball......difference being.....we have a crap coach, you don't......chances are, our backs will be kicking to yours sadly  

 
- Vorster        15 SR caps
- Odendaal     10 SR caps
- Swanepoel     0
- Venter         32 SR caps
- Esterhuizen  14 SR caps
- Mnisi            17 Sr caps

This is a list of Currie Cup players who have played zero or near zero Super Rugby, the most of these caps come from playing from the bench. None of them has had any repercussion or impact at SR level.

It's quite easy to make an ITM cup center's list:

- Jack Goodhue. Canterbury. RWC Junior 2015 champion
- Rob Thompson. Canterbury. Max try scorer this season and signed by the landers
- David Havili. Tasman and Crusaders.
- Fonotia. Tasman and Crusaders.
- Charles Ngatai. Taranaki and Chiefs
- Seta Tamanivalu. Taranaki and Chiefs
.... and I only mentioned those coming from Canterbury, Tasman and Taranaki but could continue,......
some of them have more experience and are better prospect than those you mentioned but they have a very long way ahead to be considered as replacements of Nonu and Smith.

Backline coaching is certainly a factor- but this starts at school level.

However when a player gets to Curry Cup or Super XV level-  a coach should not have to train them the basics of how to catch and pass. 

 SB
That is where you are seriously wrong.  The school kids play very good rugby - the moment the provincial and franchise coaches get their hands on them they do the utmost to coach skills out of them and get them to play dumb rugby.according to a dumb game plan.   It happens all the time - you see a school leaver playing Varsity Cup and Under 19 rugby and you say "these guys are massive in performance".  Two years later you see the same players on provincial level and all the skills are gone out of them.     

"What the hell do S15 caps have to do with the credentials of a rugby player?"

because what usually happens (except excepcional cases good enough to go directly from the domestic to the test level) is that when someone outstand at domestic level gets to the next level, Super Rugby. After playing Super Rugby, those who outstand are call to the national team environment.
Having a good domestic season doesn't mean that you are going to be good at SR level, let alone at test level. There are tons of good domestic players but very few reaches the test level.
The players you mentioned are still on the first step, the domestic comp, and they're not good enough to go directly to the test level so they have a long way ahead if they want to play tests. Most of them, and probably all, will never reach the test level.

SBW, Feikitoa, Moala, Crotty and Ranger have all reached the test level after outstand at SR. De Allende is the only saffa who could be in this list though Kriel and Serfontein have also reached the test level and are able to do so but they have not outstand at SR. The rest are currie cup players.

Clevermike, to be honest I am not convinced about that. Once they are pumped up with Creatine- they may lose their step, but a player is not going to forget how to pass or catch. 

It is easy to stand out at lower levels- not so at SuperXV level. Look at a player like Elton Jantjies. He looks great at Curry Cup level- but when he takes the next step, then not so good.
When Jantjies played at international level- it was clear that his skills were only useful at lower levels. 

A good Post Mike... most posters are empotional but objecrtional criticism are rare oin this forum except Rooinek, oi'Matey, Blikkies,Pakkies,Biltong and Sasuke andvof course Cloudy

 SB
It really has nothing to do with Creatine or anything like that.  In the so-called rugby schools the kids start early with growth hormone, dietary and physical development progammes.   By the time they are really big lads.  However, they ahve no idea of "stampkar" rugby at that stage and play a skillful gamer.  
When the coaches get hold of them - stampkar rugby coaching takes over.  There are very few coaches who coach players to play a different brand of rugby - and the major coaches are the main culprits.  In rare occassions they get through without the Ludeke's, Meyers and Coetzee's getting hold of them and their development takes a natural course.
Jantjies has skills - but is not psychologically a fighter.  There is nothing wrong with his skill set - deficiencies are elsewhere.  I want to refer you to a case like Harold Vorster - he was fortunate to play rugby for the Under 19's and 20"s for the Lions.  Ackerman picked him to play for the Lions on Super Rugby level and within 3 weeks he became a quality player for them.  At the end of the season he was the 8th ranked center in Super 15 - above players like SBW, Crotty and a host of other top notch players.  If he played for the Bulls or the Stormers - he would not get a chance  to play and if he did - he would be dropped by the coaches because he does not play stampkar rugby.
The SA rugby coaches are destructive and they should get some NZ and other coaches and \you would see a massive difference in player pe rformances.