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Albert Einstein's letter

Started by Mozart31 REPLIES1,419 VIEWS· 13 Nov 2018, 21:02
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Nov 2018, 21:02
#1
13 Nov 2018, 21:02#1
Looking through Christies November auctions I came across this.....a letter from Einstein to Eric Gutkind. On for a mere $1 to $1.5 miliion, it's worth a read: .....................> Einstein’s single most famous letter on God, his Jewish identity, and man’s eternal search for meaning. This remarkably candid, private letter was written a year before Einstein’s death and remains the most fully articulated expression of his religious and philosophical views: “The word God is for me nothing but the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of venerable but still rather primitive legends. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change anything about this.” Rather, Einstein invokes “our wonderful” Baruch Spinoza, the 17th-century Jewish Dutch philosopher with whom he strongly identified from an early age. Spinoza believed not in an anthropomorphic God who intervened in daily lives, but in a God beyond description, one responsible for the sublime beauty and orderliness of the universe. And despite Einstein’s open identification with Judaism, he felt no differently toward it: “For me the unadulterated Jewish religion is, like all other religions, an incarnation of primitive superstition. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong, and in whose mentality I feel profoundly anchored, still for me does not have any different kind of dignity from all other peoples. As far as my experience goes, they are in fact no better than other human groups, even if they are protected from the worst excesses by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot perceive anything 'chosen' about them.”
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,220 posts
13 Nov 2018, 21:20
#2
13 Nov 2018, 21:20#2

All religions push the same agenda as the Jews. They are the one true religion and God's chosen people. They offer the one way exclusive ticket into heaven, and everyone else end up elsewhere. As Einsten says, a childish pastime . Humanitarism, science etc is the future. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Nov 2018, 22:17
#3
13 Nov 2018, 22:17#3
Remains to be seen if humanity sans an over arching discipline can survive and prosper. Current trends aren't very encouraging. And science as politics has a woeful record....for example the strident dietary advice of all the nutrition scientists and the medical community to eat complex carbs has been totally reversed in the last 20 years.
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,220 posts
14 Nov 2018, 01:10
#4
14 Nov 2018, 01:10#4
I think scientists are split on diets, but it can also vary by a persons build and their exercise routine.
A paleo diet is good for some, as it appears to be man's natural diet that has evolved over the last 5 million years from the time chimpanzees became carnivores. The theory is, Chimpanzees became scavengers and ate the remains of other animals prey, sometimes even by smashing the preys skulls with rocks to get the remains. The extra protein led to growth of the brain, which increased the usage of tools. As evolution continued "man's" jaw continued to become smaller and smaller, and his brain became bigger- and perhaps the explanation why wisdom teeth do not fit in most peoples mouths.
A paleo diet seems scientifically to be the best diet, but a high carb diet is a more recent thing over the last 10,000 years. (The beginning of farming). It seems scientific to say a good diet is filled with protein, fibre- with minimal sugar and salt, and carbs.

As for religion, it has been a scapegoat to justify war since the start of time. It was a necessity in the past to organise people, or even the evolving monkey into tribes and groups. It gave them a law, or code of ethics which helped evolution into human society.
With the world becoming global, it seems to have served its natural purpose, and can be replaced with rational thought, and where possible quantifiable reasoning. Problems will be solved by shared answers of people, not conflicting religions that are monolithic in nature with extreme emotional bias. 
CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
14 Nov 2018, 05:29
#5
14 Nov 2018, 05:29#5

What you consider sciences weakness Mozart is what I consider its strengh and why it is far superior to religion and that is the fact it is willing to admit when it is wrong and as new facts arise it see that as a victory.

I cannot see the day that science can answer every question but at least it is working on it.

Religion has so many errors in it you could sail a super tanker through most of it but still the preachers spew their lies ad nauseam from the pulpit while proclaiming if its written in the bible it must be true. How do educated people in this day and age accept these obviously false and im possible claims as fact. 

Teaching of religious ideas should be banned to children under the age oif 18 as it is child abuse.

I ask every member of this board to get down on their knees and pray to the all mighty one above all other's Christopher Hitchins for the end of all religions within a week

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
14 Nov 2018, 08:16
#6
14 Nov 2018, 08:16#6
This thread is surely going to snowball. 
No religious discussion should ever be science vs religion. The moment such a discussion deteriorates to that level it can no longer be credible. They can easily coexist. 
Mozter you say "And science as politics has a woeful record"? That may be true, but it is still a completely pointless statement, because religion, as an alternative, surely has an even more woeful record? 

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
14 Nov 2018, 08:20
#7
14 Nov 2018, 08:20#7
So we can discard science because . . . ummm . . . some of the fad diets contradict one another?
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Nov 2018, 23:13
#8
14 Nov 2018, 23:13#8
Actually Bloo, nobody is saying religion should be part of government. But science needs to advise vs judge. Just a few mistakes from Consensus science. 1 The claim that we were headed into a new ice age in the 70s. 2 The official carb diet that has probably ensured hundreds of millions head into their graves earlier than necessary. 3 The aerosol replacement that would have had a bigger impact on global warming than CO2 if not discarded. 4 The many predictions that an imminent quake could be expected along the San Andreas. 5 The Piltdown chicken 6 The claim silicon implants cause breast cancer....which bankrupted Dow Corning. 7 The periodic claims of success with cold fusion. Just a few examples, and here's the most recent example from two hours ago: 'Two researchers have been forced to issue a major correction to a recent study indicating oceans have been warming at a significantly higher rate than previously thought due to climate change.'
CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
15 Nov 2018, 00:41
#9
15 Nov 2018, 00:41#9

What the hell do you mean science needs to advise not judge?

Science doesnt do either people do. When people advise/judge while using science at least they are acting on all the available information (be it right or wrong). When people advise/judge with religion they are doing it with absolutely no facts/proof/evidence at all. Just a book that they were told by another human is the word of a god and their personal beliefs of how they wish the world was not how it is.

You simply deny science not because it is sometimes wrong but because it it proves time and time again that your religious beliefs are wrong. There is not one scientific fact in support of your god or of any sort of super natural world existing but you still cling to your beliefs against an overwhelming avalanche of evidence.

 

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,220 posts
15 Nov 2018, 00:49
#10
15 Nov 2018, 00:49#10
Science is not wrong, but sometimes people's understanding of science is wrong. 
Just like maths is never wrong, but people can make mistakes understanding and applying maths.
1+ 1 always = 2.  If someone believes 1 + 1 = 3, this does not make maths wrong
Even some of Einstein's theories have already been proven wrong, but that does not make maths and science wrong.


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Nov 2018, 02:09
#11
15 Nov 2018, 02:09#11
Let me help. Mathematics is precise.....'climate science' for example is shot through with opinion and with politics. As is most of the 'science' which is involved in managing human affairs. Here are two more recent examples of pseudo science ...Y2k which was predicted to be a disaster, cost in excess on $100 billion and turned out to be a damp squibb. I sat through endless meetings on this farce. ...and how about those 'statisticians' who told us Brexit and Donald Trump would never happen. Mistake after mistake. These guys need to be confined to their specialties.....on general issues they are no more likely to be right than any smart person. Read Einstein's comment above, the greatest of them all is fairly banal. Nothing unusual in what he is relying on to make his judgements....normal stuff. And in the end he reaches a confused conclusion, he doesn't believe in formal religion....but he concurs with Spinoza who believes in a god beyond description....he doesn't agree with the Old Testament and thinks there is nothing chosen about the Jewish people, but he is 'profoundly anchored' in the Jewish mentality Sorry children there just aren't a bunch of wise men out there to whom you can entrust all important decisions......not the pope, nor any bevy of scientists. The experts have to opine, but be challenged....that's part of the big change in today's world....challenge is politically incorrect. And like it or not, in the end the people have to decide.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
15 Nov 2018, 07:09
#12
15 Nov 2018, 07:09#12
Moz, science is not perfect. It is an ever evolving fluid concept. However, for every failure of science that you  have mentioned, there are a thousand scientific discoveries that have been proven to be correct. Your whole life is based on science in one form or another,. Be it electricity, technological devices, the home you live in, the car you drive, the investments you make etc etc etc. So yes, some science has been proven to be incorrect, and that will forever be the case, but as a whole, it is the very thing we base our lives on. To get back to your point about politics and science. Well, they should not mix, with that I agree, but it is politics that abuses science, not the other way around. Science in its purest form, cares only about what can be proven with the evidence available. In almost all cases in history it is politics, greed and devious religious agendas, that have produced corrupted science. 
In Science lies the ultimate success of humanity, not in religion, not in big business and certainly not in politics.    
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
15 Nov 2018, 07:23
#13
15 Nov 2018, 07:23#13
bluebok, you must have missed the bit where Moffie proved conclusively that science is all a load of rubbish. Years ago there were some dieticians saying that carbs were good and now Moffie read a magazine saying carbs are bad . . . so that pretty much proves that science can be safely ignored.
God gave us electricity, technology and the cars we drive.
CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
15 Nov 2018, 11:13
#14
15 Nov 2018, 11:13#14

A god didn't give me any bloody thing, I had to work to buy my car.

Or is he being picky and only giving to the dead sea pedestrians again?

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
15 Nov 2018, 11:18
#15
15 Nov 2018, 11:18#15
Crusadersfan, I suspect you're not praying hard enough.
CR
CrusadersfanPro3,099 posts
15 Nov 2018, 11:59
#16
15 Nov 2018, 11:59#16

No I haven't I am too busy thinking, I will leave the kneeling down to the priest and the poor choir boys.

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
15 Nov 2018, 19:28
#17
15 Nov 2018, 19:28#17
Bloo of course we have benefited from Science......without the top 2% of intellects we would still be apes swinging in the trees. But science has always been the willing handmaiden of politics....who do you think built Hitler's V2 rockets? Pure science hardly exists....every university department is shot through with politics. I led a search for the Dean of a major US educational institution a few years back.....no person who had ever left was acceptable to the department heads. Academia and science in general are staggeringly political, far more so than business. Which doesn't negate science....it only says science can't be accountable to itself. And to assume science left to it's own devices will be fair and balanced is totally naive.
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,220 posts
15 Nov 2018, 20:10
#18
15 Nov 2018, 20:10#18
The basis of computer programming is boolean logic, meaning that all values are either true or false. 0 = false, and 1 = true.
Programming is traversing, to lots of industries such as law, life sciences, and online advertising. I would expect it will expand into more and more industries, especially newer areas such as machine learning and deep mind neural networks.
Maybe in the future, it will be applied to political science, and perhaps be able to remove all the bullshit. Quantify everything to measure the situation to best determine the most suitable course of action. Provide transparent data is numerical form, create what-if scenarios etc.
So maths/science/computer will continue to expand into all facets of human life. It is moving forward, unlike religion
In maybe 10-20 years it will be used by Judges to make decisions in court. It is already used by legal firms in case preparations, quotes, and to create algorithms that can predict verdicts of cases using precedent etc, etc.
Computers are not perfect, but that is because man's understanding of maths and science is limited- so it, not computers that are responsible for logical errors, political motives or anything else by people that create them. These non-science factors, are exactly that.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
15 Nov 2018, 20:45
#19
15 Nov 2018, 20:45#19
Sharkbok, I suspect you're referring more to Artificial Intelligence (AI) than pure computer programming.
AI is seen as a threat because, once perfected - and that's not always the case in these early days - it will take away peoples jobs, so people who are opposed to AI today are not significantly different to the Luddites of the 19th century who destroyed textile machinery as a form of protest against technology taking over their jobs.
The difference is, back then when the Industrial Revolution happened, many agricultural workers whose jobs were taken over by technology had the option of becoming factory workers while textile and other factory workers at least had the opportunity to become foremen or supervisors as production line technology replaced traditional methods.
What will happen in today's world as AI gradually replaces research, IT monitoring, legal issues, psychiatry, medicine, investments and accounting? We need to create new jobs for humans and I predict there will be some new breakthrough in terms of job creation but - other than IT jobs which promote AI - I don't know what that might be. It can't continue in the current direction of just gaming and entertainment.
What kind of jobs will be available to youngsters in 30 - 50 years time?
My father always threatened to send me to technical school if I didn't achieve decent results at school and university but I reckon in today's world you could do a lot worse than being a builder, a plumber or an electrician.
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,220 posts
15 Nov 2018, 23:47
#20
15 Nov 2018, 23:47#20
Yup AI. 
If someone is 18 years old, hard to say what field they should progress with. Maybe just computers, but even computers are automating computer IT jobs....
Maybe the best way is to try to learn programming and have a soft skill- and be an automater within a field, rather than the automated.
I am in online advertising, and it may be automated completely sooner than later, and some of it is already automated by Google and Facebook- so I am planning to expand into more web areas like web development and apps etc.
The 0 and 1 of a computer is like a measuring tape as applied in trade jobs. Everything can be done more accurately, especially when a computer does both the analysis and them even the job itself.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
16 Nov 2018, 11:29
#21
16 Nov 2018, 11:29#21
Just on AI, I watched Joe Rogan's podcast with Elon Musk, yes the one where he took a puff of a joint.. I'll tell you this much, Musk is truly eccentric, but he really is a genius. But that is not the point. When they got onto the topic AI some of the things they said really do make the whole Skynet thing in the Terminator movies seem like a very real possibility. Even Stephen Hawking referred to AI as potentially being an "immortal dictator from which humans can't escape". We worry about giant asteroids and aliens being the cause of humanities demise, but it is far more likely that our demise will be of our own doing.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Nov 2018, 18:15
#22
16 Nov 2018, 18:15#22
A long way to go....as illustrated by the recent air crash where the computer intervened to push down the nose, even though the plane wasn't in stall mode. Many surgeries are now better done by computer, but there is still a surgeon in charge for the inevitable procedure that goes wrong. Will the Cloud become Sky-net.....it's possible. But I'm counting on John Connor.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
17 Nov 2018, 09:32
#23
17 Nov 2018, 09:32#23

This is always an endless discussion without regard to development of humans.   There obviously is no prove that the creation as described in the Bible or other religious documents, ever happened,  But the question remains why was religion ever developed in the way it did.

The answer is probably that the chaos created through the early thousands of years in mankind had to be solved,   There always seems to have been a believe in natural elements on having a serious impact on human life - hence for example the early religious believes in the sun, moon and planets as gods.

By the arrival of ancient civilizations the need for some norms to organize family groups into tribal groups and even nations with similar tendencies and loyalties arose.   The fact is that leaders then had to decide on what should be done to organize mainly primitive people to a more sophisticated level of development and a believe in what the leaders saw necessary to sustain itself.  

That gradually developed into religious societies based on loyalty to what they believe in gods.   It is also a way to explain why many leaders turned themselves into gods.

Through the centuries some "religions"  got stronger by differing themselves from others and especially by conquest,   Trade and connections with other societies also had an impact on religion.

Some tendencies also developed to mix up lawmaking with religion.   Take for instance the eating of pork - in the colder countries it never was a problem - in the must hotter Middle East pork as a meat deteriorate faster than other meats - or so the leaders believed and they promulgated a health law that eating of pork is forbidden.   It would not have been accepted as a normal law by the populace - so the leaders find a solution - make it out that the gods forbid it in the form of a religious law.

Through the centuries the Jewish religion developed into a believe in one God and the present major religions in the world are all off-springs of that religion.     Christianity became a religion on its own - but was invariably influenced by other religions it got into contact with.   The tribes in Northern Europe believed in a different set of gods and had specific "religious"  celebrations - hence the introduction of Christmas as a religious holiday as an example - it was originally known as "Yule" in northern Europe mythology,

Islam as a religion was an offspring of the Jewish religion  - but was also influenced by the earlier off-spring Christianity.

The main problem was that religion was used as a means of getting political supremacy in the world.  Religion was used to get both political and economic supremacy.  That has never changed throughout history of mankind.   It became the reason for ancient warfare and establishment of empires and kingdoms and it persisted to this day.

Has religion still have a relevance in the present world environment.   yes it probably have.   The reason is that the world today have a situation that a huge percentage of the world population still has not reached a level of educational and social development that is required in society to make things work properly.  Some norm for social cohesion is required to ensure the uneducated or lowly educated population do not destroy what science have achieved thus far.

The problem in the present world environment is that religion is used by politicians and religious leaders to enhance their own agendas.  Democracy - branded as a poor form of governance by the ancient Greeks themselves, is enhancing the usage of religion as another means to influence the uninformed.

It is used by unscrupulous politicians worldwide for their own purposes and it does not mean that any specific group of leaders are exempted from using it.

Is there a religion?   There is a believe that religion in fact is a believe inside people to live in peace with their  neighbours and all people, to help others as much as they can and to enhance love and friendship as far as they go.   

Some serious thoughts on the question about religion remains.  The reason for pitting the situation of science as an alternative to religion  is a futile mythical question that can never be solved.   It is at best a discussion between educated people - not a discussion between the highly educated and lower levels in society where religion takes precedence over everything else.                                              

BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
18 Nov 2018, 06:44
#24
18 Nov 2018, 06:44#24

Very interesting read Mike. I must say, I agree with a lot of your sentiments. I believe that religion could well be a man made concept, both to bring about order and to control the masses. It is highly probable in my view, that religion is an amalgamation of superstition, the enabilty to explain natural phenomenon, a practical order that promotes the greater good and needs of a community or society, the need to control people for greed and power, and the gradual evolution over a long time of history into a singular narrative which has recently split into alternative endings. 


On the question of God. I really just don't know, but I am pretty certain that no one religion is right, because all the major religions state that all other religions are wrong. In other words, God is creating people knowing very well that they are basically condemned to hell because they'll follow the "wrong" religion based almost purely on geography and the parents they were born to. That concept makes a loving, caring and fair God impossible to reconcile with the world as it is regarding religion . That leaves 3 possibilities. God does not care, God is a sadist, or God does not exists at all. 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
18 Nov 2018, 18:37
#25
18 Nov 2018, 18:37#25
I'm sure every human being has felt that sense of frustration at some point Bloo. But you miss the fourth possibility, enshrined in all religions......followers simply can't understand the motivations of the deity. And while that's a convenient argument, it has some intellectual appeal. Can a shrimp on a rock under the sea anticipate the 10 year old with a net that's about to scoop him out of his environment? No, because his reference base is completely unaware of what's happening. Likewise when sitting on the Andreas Fault, can a human being sense the shifts that are occurring as it breaks loose. Not on your nelly, but some birds and animals apparently can.....our perceptions are poor. So how likely is it that our flawed perceptions, limited by time, location and our inferior senses.....have grasped the universe? No chance! And so the only educated answer is 'we can't know how we came into existence', and every human life is a probability win far greater than any lottery ever run. And that's certainly a kind of miracle.
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,220 posts
18 Nov 2018, 18:56
#26
18 Nov 2018, 18:56#26
.
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,220 posts
18 Nov 2018, 18:56
#27
18 Nov 2018, 18:56#27
or things are just random, and not controlled by any God.For example, you can take 2 possible routes home from work, each almost the same distance and approximately the same amount of travel time (on average depending on traffic).

You choose one route, and then have a car crash. Is this by God's motivation/intervention? How would God know which route you were going to take?  Or were you doomed regardless of the route taken?

The Shrimp could also have chosen another rock to sit on. The easiest prey will always be taken first. Darwin's survival of the fittest theory of evolution is a combination of random chance and natural selection(choice). The statistical average controls evolution. 

Religion is practised by every known human civilisation. It appears to be a natural phenomenon- but it has certainly been bastardized by politics. Religion may well be part of evolution, but at some time it could/will be superseded completely.  Religion at best- is man's interpretation of God/Infinite Truth etc
A God may well exist, and evolution may actually be the plan. When a civilisation progresses enough through maths and science, technology and mortality- religion can be left behind as part of evolution. It does not appear God is controlling things- but the original blueprint design may have been created by a God, or not!
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
19 Nov 2018, 06:13
#28
19 Nov 2018, 06:13#28

Good post Shark.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
19 Nov 2018, 07:06
#29
19 Nov 2018, 07:06#29

Mozart

You are probably right about perceptions of animals ahead of humans.   I can remember a particular incident where it did happen.  

I was visiting friends at the Saasveld Forestry College and the wife was baking cakes when in between we chatted.  It was getting late at night - around 23:00 - when the dogs started barking and the birds making noise.  About two minutes later an earthquake struck the area - it was the result of the major quake that struck the Tulbagh area that day.

Did the dogs and birds scented what was coming and we did not?  I suspect the animals sensed that something unnatural was coming and happening and we missed out.    

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Nov 2018, 16:04
#30
20 Nov 2018, 16:04#30
Darwin explains evolution....he doesn't explain existence Shark. There is always something before the something. Mike, a funny story along the same lines. We were having dinner one evening and suddenly on a calm night, the shutters shook wildly. My mother who was old school about these things was concerned it was a premonition. We all laughed, but not with total conviction....we had no explanation and it was a stunningly violent event. The next day we discovered the dynamite factory had blown up, sending a shock wave across the Cape.
BL
bluebokPro3,977 posts
21 Nov 2018, 07:33
#31
21 Nov 2018, 07:33#31
Very interesting thread this! We don't have the answers. I think that much is clear. Regardless of how you look at religion and evolution and creation, there are just too many unanswered questions to be certain of anything. I think humanity has a certain arrogance with regards to how much it has achieved, but the reality is, we have barely touched the surface of discovery. If you just consider the size of the known cosmos compared to the minuscule part of it that we have explored, it is actually laughable for us to think we are an advanced civilisation.   
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Nov 2018, 09:33
#32
21 Nov 2018, 09:33#32

There is another inexplicable in some ways associated with development of mankind.  There are many inexplicable developments that defies logic:-

*    How did the primitive societies built the Pyramids using stones so big and so heavy that even modern machinery would have difficulty in transporting and placing the stones in place.

*    Why have ancients paintings in place showing flying "planes and rockets" that never existing in the early development phase of human societies.

*    Why are there references to human beings with animal heads associated with ancient religion and often referred to as gods.

It could perhaps be explained if  it happened only in one place in the world (eg Ancient Egypt)  - but it happened all over the world and there is evidence of it in South and Central Amercia, China and in Europe.

Some explain it as Advanced Alien Visitors to earth that brought part of its civilization to earth and managed to install it in ancient and primitive mankind.   Were they regarded as gods by the ancient humans?

Studies of the Pyramids for instance indicates an advanced level of mathematics being used and the knowledge of the ancients had substantial and surprising knowledge of the planets and even the stars in the universe.  

Is such visits by Aliens still happening?   Is that the background  for frequent sighting of unidentified flying objects around the world explicable?   In some cases yes - in others not so easy to explain away.

There are things that even our advanced scientists have seen - but do not understand and really dealt with.  As was mentioned above they have barely scratched the surface thus far.   Are we really as advanced as is claimed by many?

There are even political implications taking root in many countries and that seems to stem from the political systems imposed on them through advancing developments and especially modern politicians who abuse religion for their own use.  That is happening in even the most advanced modern countries.       

Did it in fact happen that aliens ever made an impact on the world at the time?   Nobody knows - but scientists and others Have discussed the theory but could not prove that it did or did not and if it did happen whether it had an influence on development of mankind.    It found its way into Christianity as well where there is a reference to "My father has many homes" in the New Testament,  

Sure - theories abound - but proof is really not produced even by our advanced scientists - which in fact could be at this stage only scratching the surface  of d evelopment of  science and technology.

         

— END OF THREAD —

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