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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  Europe’s bureaucrats fail again

Europe’s bureaucrats fail again

Started by Mozart26 REPLIES670 VIEWS· 13 Mar 2021, 16:54
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MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
13 Mar 2021, 16:54
#1
13 Mar 2021, 16:54#1

.....Europe having performed far worse than the US economically after Covid is now failing the vaccination test. Face it, if the US had followed Europe’s approach to the virus we would probably be in a hellish global recession. Trump saved the world from that fate by pursuing radically expansive policies.


And clearly the European bureaucrats had no urgency around the vaccine. Once again Trump saved the US twice on that score. By rejecting the traditional slow path to a vaccine and then by securing enough supplies for a vigorous  vaccine programme.


Europe lags, not only the US but also the supposedly inept UK and the country they most despise Israel, which made innovative vaccine supply for testing data deals with the drug companies. 


Here’s the Economist, a European apologist magazine’s take on the scene:



...the world is split into three types of covid-19 countries. The first consists of those with lots of recent cases countered by vigorous vaccination campaigns: America and Britain, for example. The second includes the likes of Australia, Japan and China, with few vaccines but few cases to worry about. The last is made up of places with lots of new cases but little vaccination. Continental Europe is the only big, rich region in that unfortunate ward. (Much of Latin America is in a similar spot, and data are patchy in many poor countries.) It is an unexpected outcome for a continent that thought it had managed the first phase of the pandemic rather well.


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sharkbok
Captain23,205 posts
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,205 posts
13 Mar 2021, 17:25
#2
13 Mar 2021, 17:25#2
The US and the UK we're always going to be key players in the fight against Covid.
If the UK had a population the size of the US, they would have produced more vaccines.This is regardless of a political leader, even sleepy stuttering Joe appears to be doing a decent job. Scientists, not politicians should be getting most of the credit.

Even Russia was able to develop a vaccine despite its obvious disadvantage of a long line of useless politicians. 
The US were fortunate to have California big Tech- who actually grew during the recession. The nature of online business is social distancing, so they blossomed. 

If Trump had been elected again, he would have destroyed US relations with the rest of the world- and people would have started banning US products and services. 
The EU has been useless. Not one vaccine has been developed in the EU.
Although their countries would have had more government tax to fight Covid if it was not for the Irish siphoning all US company contributions. What a joke the EU is.
Apparently, Joe Biden is close to agreeing on an international tax law that US companies will have to follow.  That could be the end of the Irish stealing tax, as this would mean that tax would be given to the country of sale- not Ireland...
ST
Stavanger1
Pro4,532 posts
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
14 Mar 2021, 16:53
#3
14 Mar 2021, 16:53#3
"The EU has been useless. Not one vaccine has been developed in the EU.
Although their countries would have had more government tax to fight Covid if it was not for the Irish siphoning all US company contributions. What a joke the EU is.
Apparently, Joe Biden is close to agreeing on an international tax law that US companies will have to follow.  That could be the end of the Irish stealing tax, as this would mean that tax would be given to the country of sale- not Ireland..."
LOL your still banging on about Ireland being a tax haven.
The EU hasn't covered itself in glory regarding the slow speed at which its secured vaccine purchase agreements nor did it invest near as much as the UK or USA did in R&D and increasing production capacity. The EU has always been a slow cumbersome beast as it has to obtain agreement between all the member states. Its not a perfect organization nor as it critics claim is it an unaccountable or undemocratic institution and this is a consequence of that.
There is also political considerations. The EU has been accused of being overly focused on just the Astra Zeneca vaccine but apparently member states where in favor of this due to it being the cheaper vaccine and where suspicious that Germany had an agenda in obtaining money for German business BioNTech who where the developing the Pfizer vaccine.
To call them useless is unfair. The BioNTech vaccine was developed with the EU. They did obtain the vaccine at a much lower price, half that of the US and something like seven times less than the UK. The EU is also the leading exporter of vaccines around the world.

There is also praise going to the EU from smaller member states like Malta who are saying they are now able to get vaccinated at the same time larger, wealthy member states are, something that may not have happened had all the member states gone their own in way in securing the vaccine and the EU would no doubt faced accusations of being divided as well. Damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Finally the EU has also been somewhat unlucky, time and again the makers of the vaccines have been unable to delivery on agreed numbers of vaccine.

The UK vaccine role out is going incredible well. Praise where its due. The UK government got in early and secured its vaccine supply first. They also wisely opted to let the NHS handle the vaccination process and not outsourced to ill-suited third parties with no experience in the area such as they did with test and trace. Even still the UK is takingsome risk with its decision to vaccine as many people as possible with one shot of the vaccine and not follow the recommended process of giving both shots for full protection. I believe many if not most EU countries are ahead of the UK in terms of issuing the second jab.
Regardless even if the UK does finish its vaccination process before the EU's by a month or two, on the whole most EU countries will probably still have handled the pandemic better than the UK in terms of lives saved and economic performance. The UK has done the worst of any advanced society in the world in terms of both. Not only have they mishandled the pandemic up till the vaccine rollout but they have the absolute shit show of Brexit thrown in on top of it, which long term will be far more damaging to its economy than the pandemic. I believe they lost £200 billion last year alone almost the same amount as the total they have payed the EU in membership fees since they joined the EU and its just been announced that exports to the EU have dropped 40% since the state of this year.





MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
14 Mar 2021, 18:28
#4
14 Mar 2021, 18:28#4

Case rates and death rates are complex issues involving population density, age, viral exposure and social norms. These things can’t be blamed on the government. Not getting your population the vaccine can. 

Another huge eruption of nonsense Anger.. and I love the way you have to gratuitously toss in Brexit. Brexit was a decision by the British people  to not be governed by bureaucrats in Belgium...economics was not the driver.

But if the Brits were still in Europe their Covid results would be no better and their vaccine roll out would be in the tank, along with the rest of Europe.


ST
Stavanger1
Pro4,532 posts
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
14 Mar 2021, 19:44
#5
14 Mar 2021, 19:44#5
Indeed their is many complex issues that affect case and death rates, but are you seriously suggesting government policy during a pandemic has no affect on case or death rates?
For example when your test and trace system your running collapses and your not able to inform close contacts to isolate, that has no effect on numbers?. You say not getting a vaccine can effect numbers, very true but how about not getting PPE for your front-line medical staff?. How about a government pushed campaign for people to eat out after the end of the first lockdown period, something that was linked to a sixth of cases in the second wave. I mean if government policy has no affect, why where you praising Trump's decision to implement a travel ban, something the UK was one of the last to do?
 
"economics was not the driver."
More uninformed nonsense from the king of it.  Economics was one of the main drivers. The cost of EU membership was a huge plank of the vote leave campaign. The £18 billion a year membership fee was constantly brought up by the leave said, not to mention that big red bus with £350 million a week extra for the NHS if the UK voted to leave.

If the Brits where still in, true their number of cases and deaths would largely still be the same because each countries handling of the pandemic is up to themselves not the EU. However they may have been somewhat better off as they would have better been able to obtain PPE during the first few months of the pandemic something the EU was better able to do than the UK.

If they had remained a member state they still could of gone their own way regarding the vaccine. As Hungary a member state did for example, its hard to say they may have felt obligated to go with the EU but given their aloofness from the rest of Europe they may still have opted to go it alone.
As for me throwing in Brexit, me bringing it up was more aimed at sharkbok who keeps going on about Ireland's tax deals as a valid reason for the UK to leave the EU. I'm under the impression he's a Brexit supporter who's really struggling to find valid reasons for it and this seems like the only thing he's clinging too. I'm given the UK credit for its vaccination program but I can't see it changing the UK status as having one of the worst case/death rates in Europe and the worst economic performance. Economically finishing the vaccination program a few months earlier is not going to offset the damage already done to it by its handling of the pandemic alone, never mind coming close to offsetting the economic damage caused by Brexit. I doubt many in Europe would swap places with them.





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sharkbok
Captain23,205 posts
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,205 posts
14 Mar 2021, 22:53
#6
14 Mar 2021, 22:53#6
The first win for Brexit is Covid vaccines.
It was a big win indeed, and even some of the other European powerhouses like Germany and France have commented that the EU's performance in this area has not been good enough. 
The UK took its own approach to create 2 vaccines.
The Imperial college one using RNA failed-  while the AstraZeneca one has done well. 
The EU has finished the production of some of the vaccines, but they never designed any of their own vaccines. This is just outsourcing a small part of the manufacturing process, in US-owned companies with EU locations. 

The UK also purchased in advance and got contracts in place. Apparently, there have been some big shipments that have arrived recently in the UK, from the US. The newspapers are saying that the UK might start doing over 1 million vaccines per day.  If that happens, the UK will have all adults vaccinated (or offered a vaccine) before May. 
ST
Stavanger1
Pro4,532 posts
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
15 Mar 2021, 00:44
#7
15 Mar 2021, 00:44#7
"The first win for Brexit is Covid vaccines.
It was a big win indeed, and even some of the other European powerhouses like Germany and France have commented that the EU's performance in this area has not been good enough. "
Care to explain how it was a win for Brexit?
As I already pointed out, Hungary a member state broke ranks and did its own thing. The UK could of done the same.
Yes the EU has been slow regarding supplying the vaccine but both Germany and France have also made mistakes in administrating what vaccine they have which has resulted in delays, mistakes which the EU are not to blame for.
The Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was developed in German labs.

SH
sharkbok
Captain23,205 posts
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,205 posts
15 Mar 2021, 01:40
#8
15 Mar 2021, 01:40#8
Hungary like others in the EU lost patience and had to resort to alternative suppliers- although this is not entirely their fault, as the US has hoarded vaccine. 
This makes sense as the US has developed the most vaccine and they should focus on the US first, except in the case of pre-existing contractual agreement with vaccine companies- not the US government, India has also hoarded its vaccine from the poorer countries.
The UK has also hoarded, but Astra Zeneca seems to way behind in production. 

SH
sharkbok
Captain23,205 posts
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,205 posts
15 Mar 2021, 12:50
#9
15 Mar 2021, 12:50#9
Merkel's party is losing in the elections, and apparently, it is all down to how Covid has been addressed. 
The socialist approach of purchasing vaccine through a communal scheme has not worked. It has been a single point of failure, so if something goes wrong- then everything goes wrong.

The overtly socialist approach of equality in the EU, has meant richer countries like Germany who would usually have been in the front of the queue, are now at the back- just ahead of the likes of Africa. Small countries like Ireland benefit from the EU, while the key players carry them on their back. 
The EU works for some countries, but the most successful EU countries are benefactors to the smaller ones. All while the Irish undercut the EU by stealing US corporate tax meant for the "single" market bloc. 

ST
Stavanger1
Pro4,532 posts
ST
Stavanger1Pro4,532 posts
15 Mar 2021, 15:43
#10
15 Mar 2021, 15:43#10
The Germans have made their own mistakes as well, its not entirely down to the EU.

As I already said the EU was slow in securing vaccines. However the deals they did sign where for more than enough vaccine and at a good price. Its not entirely the EU's fault that the vaccine manufacturers cannot supply the needed amount, eventhe Prime Minister of Hungary a fierce critic of the EU has acknowledge the manufacturers are part of the problem. The EU is also not responsible for countries like France and Germany failing to administrate in a timely manner what vaccine they do have.

Hang on a minute, I though accusations where that the EU was a scam designed purely to benefit the big two France and Germany. For years critics have going on about how the EU props up inefficient French farmers and how the value of the Euro is always kept at a level that suits Germany. Now you saying its a scam that only benefits smaller nations?. The EU is by the far worlds most successful trading block, membership of which is worth billions in terms of the additional trade it enables. The idea that Ireland tax system in anyway comes close to negating the financial benefits that larger member states get from membership is laughable.

The decision to allow the EU to handle procurement of the vaccine may be causing a lot of pain right now for member states, but in the long run it may well help to keep it united, which is one of the goals of EU.


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sharkbok
Captain23,205 posts
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,205 posts
15 Mar 2021, 16:07
#11
15 Mar 2021, 16:07#11
I do think smaller countries have benefited more from the EU, Ireland in particular. I am not saying the EU is a scam, I am saying Ireland is a scam. They bite the hand that feeds it. If it was not for US companies wanting to sell to the EU, there would be no Irish tax haven, 

The Irish bread and butter are made by undercutting the EU, thereby allowing US corporates to make a mockery of the EU. Billions are lost each year of Tax revenue, due to the Elephant in the Room Irish. 
Ireland contributes very little to the EU, but they rob them blind. If it is a choice between keeping Ireland, or claiming the correct amount of tax by the correct country- it is a no brainer. 

Capitalism is the Irish having their own companies, instead of being a tax haven that steals from other countries. 
Socialism is stealing the taxes of the EU. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
15 Mar 2021, 17:19
#12
15 Mar 2021, 17:19#12

SB

In between  watching tennis on TV I read part of your tripe above.   No leader outside the USA respects the brainless Joe Biden - who  also has a spotty record as to corruption.   They know what happened - that he is too stupid to realize that they are playing the fool with him. 

At this stage the world is a much more unstable place than it was when Trump was President.   The world leaders hated Trump because unlike Obama  and now Biden he could not be handled by them.   They praise him before the media and screw him in negotiations.    Unlike Obama Trump did not spy on EU leaders - so at least they were safe from that - but that is only temporary until the handlers of  Biden - who in fact is rui ning the country - decided to renew spying on EU leaders,         

DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Mar 2021, 17:53
#13
15 Mar 2021, 17:53#13

  

No man Maaik!


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sharkbok
Captain23,205 posts
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sharkbokCaptain23,205 posts
15 Mar 2021, 17:55
#14
15 Mar 2021, 17:55#14
Biden is too old to be in the job, but he is respected for being a human being- unlike your hero Trump. 
DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Mar 2021, 18:05
#15
15 Mar 2021, 18:05#15

Respected?



Depends on how fooled you are...



DB
DbDraad
Captain26,388 posts
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
15 Mar 2021, 18:07
#16
15 Mar 2021, 18:07#16

"Biden is too old to be in the job"


Yet you were knowi ngly riding with Biden all the way...

SH
sharkbok
Captain23,205 posts
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,205 posts
15 Mar 2021, 19:40
#17
15 Mar 2021, 19:40#17
I would have voted for farm animal as US president instead of Trump... It does not mean I think Biden is great, his best attribute is he is not Trump. 
PL
Plum
Captain21,007 posts
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
15 Mar 2021, 23:19
#18
15 Mar 2021, 23:19#18

We know, Viskop.

Kinda sums you up.

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Mar 2021, 00:13
#19
16 Mar 2021, 00:13#19


The reason why Britain left European UnionPolls found that the main reasons people voted Leave were "the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK", and that leaving "offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders."

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sharkbok
Captain23,205 posts
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,205 posts
16 Mar 2021, 00:24
#20
16 Mar 2021, 00:24#20
Factors including sovereignty, immigration, the economy and anti-establishment politics, amongst various other influences. In the end, the British public voted in favour with a slim margin of 51.8% to leave the European Union in a non-legally binding referendum.

Causes of the vote in favour of Brexit - Wikipedia

CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
16 Mar 2021, 06:46
#21
16 Mar 2021, 06:46#21

You voted for anything in this case showed how stupid you are for being brainwashed through usage of lies and deception by the liberal media.       

PL
Plum
Captain21,007 posts
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
16 Mar 2021, 11:45
#22
16 Mar 2021, 11:45#22

Lol Vissie supports Brexit because lives there and doesn't want too many immigrants messing up the place.

Strangely, he didn't support a US president whose primary campaign agenda was the exact same thing for the USA.

How peculiar...to both love and hate the same wall.

It gets even weirder when you consider how many of Fishbrain's political views line up with Trump's.

Strong borders, sovereignty, individual agency, free speech, actual racial equality as opposed the brand lefty media are profiting off of, less tax for small business owners, greater transparency in government, stronger military, opting out of unnecessary wars, tougher on China...

It's almost an endless list, Vissie. All things that I know you agree with and all things the Trump was fully about.

Starting to see why I think you're such a plank?

Perhaps it takes time that you admit your preference of personality is actually paramount. Just like most other people that look at politics through the lens of their own ego.



SH
sharkbok
Captain23,205 posts
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,205 posts
16 Mar 2021, 14:12
#23
16 Mar 2021, 14:12#23
As always, your insight is greatly appreciated ButtPlug...
You need to put your big boy pants on, and admit your master Trump lost.
And with all the pending investigations, he still has a decent chance of being locked up.
The Alt-right are in a frenzy that Trump lost. Get with it. He lost. 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Mar 2021, 14:29
#24
16 Mar 2021, 14:29#24
By The New York Times | Sources: Health agencies and hospitals

Across most of the European Union, vaccine rollout has been slow, and new cases are surging. Europe 

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
16 Mar 2021, 14:35
#25
16 Mar 2021, 14:35#25

How Anger can still defend Europe as a governing mechanism simply demonstrates the depth of the anti English/pro the alternative (any alternative) views that are fed to these modern Irish people. They are lost in fantasies of lumpy, bespectacled Brussels bureaucrats.

SH
sharkbok
Captain23,205 posts
SH
sharkbokCaptain23,205 posts
16 Mar 2021, 15:31
#26
16 Mar 2021, 15:31#26
The whole of the EU has not been able to invent a vaccine, instead, they are just completing a step within the overall production process for the UK and the US. They are dependent on supplies from the US and UK- maybe even Russia now as well. 
The US has certainly damaged their relationship with the EU even further. 
PL
Plum
Captain21,007 posts
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
16 Mar 2021, 17:30
#27
16 Mar 2021, 17:30#27

Slightly transparent there ou, Stinkers!

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