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FORUM / MIKES GRIPES /  Havard Emeritus Law Professor Alan Dershowits explains why Flynn should NEVER have been charged

Havard Emeritus Law Professor Alan Dershowits explains why Flynn should NEVER have been charged

Started by Beeno137 REPLIES1,115 VIEWS· 08 May 2020, 19:35
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
08 May 2020, 19:35
#1
08 May 2020, 19:35#1

Obviously this eminent legal scholar needs advice from poor rooitwit! Rooitwit can tell the professor how Flynn pleaded guilty. Rooitwitwit thinks he has the Professor stumped. Hahahahahahhahahahahaha


More than a year ago I wrote that it was clear General Michael Flynn should never have pleaded guilty because he did not commit a crime. Even if he lied to the FBI, his lie was not "material." For a lie to be a crime under federal law, it must be material to the investigation – meaning that the lies pertain to the issues being legitimately investigated. 

The role of the FBI is to investigate past crimes, not to create new ones. Because the FBI investigators already knew the answer to the question they asked him—whether he had spoken to the Russian Ambassador—their purpose was not to elicit new information relevant to their investigation, but rather to spring a perjury trap on him. When they asked Flynn the question, they had a recording of his conversation with the Russian, of which he was presumably unaware. So his answer was not material to the investigation because they already had the information about which they were inquiring.

From a legal and policy point of view, encouraging the FBI to misuse its legitimate authority to investigate past crimes, solely to create future crimes is both immoral and illegal. That is why Congress added the word material to its statute.

Because Flynn's answers were not material to what the FBI said it was investigating –- a violation of a never-used law, the Logan Act, that prohibits private citizens from negotiating with foreign governments -- they did not constitute a crime.

At the time, that argument was mocked by the usual suspects: fair-weather civil libertarians who would have supported the argument if it had been made on behalf of a liberal Democrat but who rejected it when made on behalf of a Trump Republican. They claimed there was no authority supporting this argument, despite the citation of several cases by eminent judges.

Now the Justice Department has agreed that General Flynn did not, in fact, commit any crime. Among the reasons given for belatedly dropping the case against General Flynn was that his answers did not satisfy the materiality requirement of the statute.

Let us hear now from the former civil libertarians for whom any violation of law is permissible, as long as it is directed at a Trump associate.

When I originally argued that Flynn had committed no crime, I was unaware of the exculpatory documents that the government had illegally withheld from his lawyers and him. He might well have considered them in deciding whether or not to plead guilty. This suppressed material might have bolstered his defense had he decided to go to trial.


Some may wonder why an innocent man would ever plead guilty. Anyone who knows how the system works in practice would understand why an innocent man—or a defendant in a close case—might be coerced into pleading guilty. The cruel reality is that if a defendant pleads not guilty and is found guilty, the sentence will be far greater than if he had pled guilty—perhaps even 10 times greater. Moreover, in this case, it is alleged that the government threatened, if Flynn did not plead guilty, to indict his son. These are the kinds of pressures routinely used by prosecutors. Civil libertarians have long been critical of these pressures, but fair-weather civil libertarians refuse to object when these improper tactics are used against Trump's associates. Partisan hypocrisy reigns.


The decision by the Justice Department to drop the Flynn case sends an important message to prosecutors that goes beyond the Flynn case. There must be a single standard of justice and civil liberties -- including the presumption of innocence -- that transcends partisan politics. This message has been forgotten by both parties. Flynn himself was among those who shouted, "Lock her up," regarding Hillary Clinton. Then when the Justice Department tried to lock him up, he got religion. (Don't worry Crooked Hillary has committed numerous crimes and will be locked up should justice prevail.)


Cynics used to say that, "a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged." I would respond by saying that, "a civil-libertarian is a conservative who has been falsely accused." I would now add that an anti-civil libertarian is a former civil libertarian who is willing to ignore the law to get Trump and his associates.

The time has come, indeed it is long overdue, to de-politicize our criminal justice system and to forbid it from becoming weaponized by either side for partisan purposes. Dropping the case against General Flynn is an important first step, but it cannot be the last if we are to restore the criminal justice system to its rightful place as a non-partisan institution of justice.

Alan M. Dershowitz is the Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law Emeritus at Harvard Law School and author of the book, Guilt by Accusation: The Challenge of Proving Innocence in the Age of #MeToo, Skyhorse Publishing, November 2019. He is the Jack Roth Charitable Foundation Fellow at Gatestone Institute.



SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
08 May 2020, 19:43
#2
08 May 2020, 19:43#2

Lock them all up!!!

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
08 May 2020, 20:33
#3
08 May 2020, 20:33#3

“ Posted by: sharkbok (11501 posts)

May 08, 2020, 19:43

Lock them all up!!!“

At last you are getting it. You are 100% correct in calling for them all to be locked up. That’s exactly what should happen. Comey, McCabe, Strzok, Page, Orr (both of them), Schiff, Nadler, Weissmann, ........Lock them all up, the last single one of them. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 May 2020, 20:39
#4
08 May 2020, 20:39#4

At last I agree with you,  Obama, Biden, Clinton were all involved in this - together with the senior FBI officials and Rosenstein from the Justice Department.  All should indeed go to jail and for a very long time.  They crooked 29 FISA Court Applications to spy on US citizens and now this. Obama, the biggest crook ever to serve as US President, co-ordinated this process, same as he co-ordinated the massive corruption schemes hi s administration was involved in.             

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
08 May 2020, 21:02
#5
08 May 2020, 21:02#5

Alan Dershowitz . . . the guy who defended OJ Simpson, Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein and was then part of Bozo's impeachment defence team?

Who gives a toss what this protector of perverts thinks about anything?

Come on, speak up, Trumpanzees!

LMAO!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 May 2020, 21:56
#6
08 May 2020, 21:56#6

Listen Rooinek

The FBI did something totally illegal and against the rule of law.   They knew their Washington office cleared Flynn of any wrongdoing and then concoct a plot to find something they could use against him.  Find  me anywhere in any law book that that type of thing would be legal,   

No police service anywhere in the world would allow that to happen.  In any event the next problem was the comments of Comey that he authorized a meeting between Flynn and two FBI agents in the Whitehouse.   They went so far as to tell him there was no legal issues involved, and it would not be necessary to involve the Whitehouse legal council.   He was not under oath and they asked him about a telephone discussion he had with the Russian Ambassador of which they had a full transcript and new exactly what was discussed.   The answer to one question was that he could not remember,   Anyway on listening to the tape of the meeting there was nothing too - so Strzok and Page was then asked to write out a memo about the meeting and the I do not remember answer was changed so that it could become incriminating evidence  in a criminal trial,   

The FBI then refused to provide all documents to the Court needed by the Defense pertaining to the case,   Although they provided some documents the Defense claimed that there were missing ones,   You must remember that Barr was overall in charge of the case against Flynn - not liking the delaying tactics he called the FBI to bring him  the files dealing with the Flynn issue and when he looked at the content of these two files - he realized that the conduct of the FBI was illegal and that was why the case was dropped.   There was no crime at all committed - so Flynn pleaded guilty to no crime.          

SH
sharkbokCaptain23,209 posts
08 May 2020, 22:06
#7
08 May 2020, 22:06#7
Lock up the Trumpanzees, all of them!
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
08 May 2020, 22:23
#8
08 May 2020, 22:23#8

So what do OJ Simpson, Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein and Bozo have in common?

Hang on . . . on second thoughts . . . what two things do OJ Simpson, Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein and Bozo have in common?

LMAO!

Edit: Wait! I can make this even more interesting! Name THREE things that OJ Simpson, Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein and Bozo have in common!

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
08 May 2020, 22:29
#9
08 May 2020, 22:29#9

“ Posted by: Rooinek (10113 posts)

May 08, 2020, 21:02

Alan Dershowitz . . . the guy who defended OJ Simpson, Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein and was then part of Bozo's impeachment defence team?

Who gives a toss what this protector of perverts thinks about anything?

Come on, speak up, Trumpanzees!

LMAO!  “

It took you since the impeachment trial to fall out with this one. Dershowitz is a lawyer at heart and a libertarian. He was also no Trump supporter and is no Republican either. He voted for Hillary Clinton. Have you listened to his testimony during the impeachment trial? 

He is just a lawyer who believes in the blindfolded Lady Justice holding a set of scales. A lawyer just like prof Jonathan Turkey, also a Democrat who voted for Hillary Clinton and who served as a Republican witness during the impeachment hearings. The Republicans’ only witness in that hearing.

You see, Trump and the Republican’s didn’t need the use of partisan Dem parrots. All they needed was objective lawyers. 

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
08 May 2020, 22:32
#10
08 May 2020, 22:32#10
"Name THREE things that OJ Simpson, Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein and Bozo have in common!"
No takers?
Anyone?
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
08 May 2020, 22:47
#11
08 May 2020, 22:47#11

You guys aren't going to believe this but here goes . . .

Name FOUR things that OJ Simpson, Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein and Bozo have in common!!!

That's right, FOUR!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
08 May 2020, 22:51
#12
08 May 2020, 22:51#12

Rooinek 

Don't change the subject, please.  The issue is about Flynn not the others where your imagination ran wild.

Just one thing  Dershowitz was not the Chief Defending Lawyer nor was he the Deputy - he was one of nine legal professionals and experts were hired by the Defense, Not knowing specifically what his role was - your emphasis of his involvement in the Simpson trial is sounding much like baloney. 

As to Epstein - he apparently committed a Clinton suicide in jail.  Could find no relevance at all,

For the rest you must be daft 

        

RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
09 May 2020, 08:28
#13
09 May 2020, 08:28#13

Okay, four things that OJ Simpson, Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein and Bozo have in common . . .

Let's get the very obvious one out of the way first . . .

1. They're all disgusting perverts

Okay but there are a few less obvious ones that are equally true . . .

2. They were all defended in court at some stage by Alan Dershowitz.

3. In all cases Dershowitz got them off (to some extent anyway) even though they were all guilty.

4. They all treat women like shit.

There you go. Who would have thought they had so much in common?

BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
09 May 2020, 09:46
#14
09 May 2020, 09:46#14

Se moer  ...... what about

Don’t Forget, Michael Flynn Pleaded Guilty. Twice.

Even President Trump has said his former national security adviser lied to the F.B.I.

By The Editorial Board

The editorial board is a group of opinion journalists whose views are informed by expertise, research, debate and certain longstanding values. It is separate from the newsroom.

  • May 7, 2020





  • Michael Flynn, former national security adviser to President Trump, leaving court in 2017.Credit...Brendan Smialowski/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

    It can be hard to recall, since so many members of President Trump’s inner circle have been indicted, convicted of federal crimes and even sent to prison, but the first felon to emerge from this administration was Michael Flynn.

    Mr. Flynn, who served less than a month as the national security adviser before resigning in disgrace, pleaded guilty in December 2017 to lying to F.B.I. investigators about his communications with the Russian ambassador.

    When asked about the plea at the time, Mr. Trump said, “I had to fire General Flynn because he lied to the vice president and the F.B.I.”

    That was true, of course. Mr. Flynn did lie, as he admitted to under oath in a court of law — twice. He told investigators, falsely, that he had not communicated with Sergey Kislyak, the Russian ambassador to the United States, about possible changes to American foreign policy toward Russia even before Mr. Trump took office.

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    Continue reading the main story

    Last year Mr. Flynn asked the federal judge to throw out his conviction because, he claimed, the prosecutors and F.B.I. agents on his case had engaged in misconduct. The judge rejected his request, finding that the agents had not entrapped Mr. Flynn. And a report by the Justice Department’s inspector general found that the bureau had sufficient evidence to investigate Mr. Flynn as part of its inquiry into the Trump campaign’s ties to Russia, even as the report was sharply critical of the F.B.I.’s broader handling of that investigation.

    Yet on Thursday, the Justice Department, under Attorney General William Barr, suddenly dropped all criminal charges against Mr. Flynn.

    • Thanks for reading The Times.
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    In a court filing, Mr. Barr said that the interview in which Mr. Flynn admitted to lying to authorities was “conducted without any legitimate investigative basis,” and so his statements were not “material” to an active investigation. Further, the department said it was unable to prove that Mr. Flynn had in fact made false statements.

    To review: Mr. Barr is now saying he cannot prove charges to which Mr. Flynn has twice pleaded guilty in court — and for which there is ample evidence.

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    As for legitimacy and materiality, the F.B.I. was in the middle of a monthslong counterintelligence investigation into possible ties between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. Mr. Flynn was a top aide to that campaign, and he lied about speaking with the Russian ambassador in a way that undermined the Obama administration, which was still in charge at the time.

    He had the constitutional right to remain silent, but he chose not to, and then he lied. Defense lawyers across the country will surely leap at the chance to seek similar concessions on behalf of their clients, and we are eager to see Mr. Barr apply this standard in thousands of other cases where the defendant is not a friend of the president’s.

    Mr. Trump, his original explanation for firing Mr. Flynn notwithstanding, promptly crowed that his former aide was an “innocent man” who had been targeted by the Obama administration. He said Thursday in an Oval Office appearance that the officials involved in the Russia investigation and the Flynn case were guilty of “treason” and would “pay a big price.”

    It’s hard to overstate how dangerous this is. It is a small step from using the Justice Department to protect your friends to using it to go after your political enemies. In other words, watch out, Joe Biden.

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    It is, of course, entirely in character for Mr. Trump, who lavishes praise on autocrats and dictators around the world. He is now emulating them, using the Justice Department to protect his friends, in the belief that he can do so with impunity. As long as Mr. Barr leads the Justice Department, he can.

    The attorney general is supposed to work for the American people, not as a personal fixer for the president. Instead, from the day he took the job, Mr. Barr has worked to provide cover for Mr. Trump. He provided a misleading account of the Mueller investigation’s findings; he overrode his own attorneys’ sentencing recommendations for another of Mr. Trump’s criminal cronies, Roger Stone; he assigned new investigators to sniff out misconduct by the Mueller investigation; and he weighs in publicly on the purported wrongdoing of those involved in that investigation, none of whom have been charged with any crimes.

    Career prosecutors who have dedicated their lives to the rule of law and the independent administration of justice are left to wonder what they’re supposed to do now. (Shortly before the Justice Department’s filing, Brandon Van Grack, the prosecutor who led the case against Mr. Flynn, announced his withdrawal from the case.)

    Michael Bromwich, a former Justice Department inspector general, called Thursday “A black day in D.O.J. history.” He’s right. Our institutions have withstood corruption and malfeasance at the highest level, until now. With William Barr at the right hand of Donald Trump, that is no longer assured.

    The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: letters@nytimes.com.

    Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.

    More in Opinion


    PL
    PlumCaptain21,007 posts
    09 May 2020, 11:09
    #15
    09 May 2020, 11:09#15

    Rooi,

    FBI - "Hey we'd like a to chat."

    Citizen - "Do I need a lawyer present?"

    FBI - "No, it's just a chat. Nothing more."

    Citizen - "Ok, we'll I'll tell you what I remember"

    FBI - "Gotcha!"

    Which is actually what this is all about. The abuse of state power and the victimisation of citizens by institutions that the individual stands no chance against. 

    Of course, Rooi is happy to overlook the crux, since in his ideal marxisT world view, it's simply par for the course, right?

    If you're on the wrong(not mine) team then all evils could and should befall you.

    You can happily weaponise a state's power against it's people, providing those people are my enemies too.

    That state will never focus the same power on me when it sees fit to do so. And garnering the necessary consent from my enemies will be impossible anyway. We may disagree but they'll never cheer as my life is ruined. Right?

    Here's a clue because I know that StinkVis is reading this and is lost.

    YOU will ALWAYS have ENEMIES and the STATE will ALWAYS have POWER.

    If you condone and perpetuate abuse of power, it's only a matter time before you're a victim. Before those you hold dear are victim. And it's yourself that you should blame when that happens. Not the state, not anybody else, just yourself.

    It's frightening to realise how shortsighted people actually are. 

    Especially when those people originate from a nation that's history was destroyed, changed for the worse and continues to be shattered even further by exactly the type of abuse of power in question.

    We can play fun little "who gat da bestest insults" games all day long. It's meaningless fun. Literally. However, to me, it's this type of intentional oversight that angers.

    Why? Well because it's these types of team based oversights that have been at the heart of countless human misery. Wars, genocide...you name it, willful ignorances are always the key that unlocks the destruction and suffering. 

    It's sickening exactly because it's willful.

    Because, remember when you all bemoaned Trump's alleged abuse of power? You seemed to understand how little place there was for it in a truly free society at the time. 

    Seems that understanding has conveniently been vaporized today...by choice, by bias, by ego, by selfishness and NOT by ignorance proper.

     Answer me just this...

    How, in light of the above, do you honestly consider yourself better than any of the people here or in politics, that you spend time criticising.

    You won't. 

    And I'll copy and past exactly the part where you sidestep and avoid answering through some maneuver that you consider clever/apt.

    Nah, I won't get off my high horse. I bought it and I feed it. Get your own horse  





    PL
    PlumCaptain21,007 posts
    09 May 2020, 11:18
    #16
    09 May 2020, 11:18#16

    Ja, thanks for the NYT opinion piece Blo.

    Any thoughts of you own that you'd like to share?

    Or perhaps I should just say...

    "Se gat..."

    And proceed to post a Fox opinion piece.

    Facepalm.

    PL
    PlumCaptain21,007 posts
    09 May 2020, 11:23
    #17
    09 May 2020, 11:23#17

    Se gat...Here's a Fox opinion piece 

    After more than three long years, the Justice Department has finally lived up to its name by dropping charges against my former boss, former National Security Adviser and retired Army Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn.

    The filing of charges against this decorated military leader and public servant – who I served with briefly as his deputy on the National Security Council – amounted to a massive injustice.

    Flynn has gone through hell, racked up massive legal expenses, and been forced to sell his home to pay his legal bills.

    The American people deserve to know who was responsible for the outrageous framing of Flynn – and those responsible must be held accountable. This is vital to ensure that baseless political prosecutions like this never happen again to officials in any administration, Democrat or Republican.

    DEMS ASK IG TO PROBE BARR’S ‘POLITICIZATION’ OF JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AFTER FLYNN DECISION

    The Trump-hating media and Deep State bureaucrats who have wanted to derail the Trump presidency since its earliest days made Flynn, me and others collateral damage in their anti-Trump crusade. They have dragged our nation through rancor and division and fanned the flames of the anger that threatens to consume American freedom.

    Rather than wait for the next election and let the American people decide at the ballot box who should be our president, these Trump opponents took things into their own hands in an unprecedented and improper manner.

    The Trump opponents arrogantly thought they knew better than the American people who should lead our nation. They were willing abuse their power, break laws, sacrifice their integrity and crush innocent people in their quest to destroy the Trump presidency.

    Trump haters claim Attorney General William Barr concluded Thursday that charges against Flynn should be dropped because Barr is a stooge for the president. This accusation is absurd.

    In fact, the unjust and baseless prosecution of Flynn has more in common with the show trials of dictatorships than it has with the American system of justice.

    The real reason the Justice Department moved to drop Flynn’s prosecution is that the department never had a case against Flynn in the first place. Internal documents that were never supposed to see the light of day and only recently became public make this crystal clear. And there is likely to be another trove of documents released in the near future.

    In their entirety, these documents are likely to show a pattern of abuse of power and wrongdoing by senior officials of the FBI, Justice Department, intelligence community, and perhaps even very senior officials in President Barack Obama’s White House.

    The documents will add to the revelations about how a cabal of government officials tried to bring down a duly elected president of the United States in what amounts to an attempted coup.

    In fact, the unjust and baseless prosecution of Flynn has more in common with the show trials of dictatorships than it has with the American system of justice.

    CLICK HERE TO SIGN UP FOR OUR OPINION NEWSLETTER

    Lavrentiy Beria, the head of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin’s secret police, once famously said:  “Show me the man, and I’ll find you the crime.” This is an eerily accurate description of how the FBI treated Flynn when officials framed him, despite the fact that in reality, he had done nothing illegal.

    The attorney general’s well-justified decision to dismiss charges against Flynn may be the end of Flynn’s three-year nightmare. It will give me and others satisfaction that justice has at least in part been served. But hopefully, things won’t stop there.

    Donald Trump was elected president by the American people in a historic election in order to go to Washington and drain the swamp. The swamp creatures – the closed ecosystem of permanent bureaucrats, career congressional politicians (of both parties) and the Washington press corps – were so entrenched that they had come to see themselves as the rightful rulers of the nation. But in fact, they are simply the servants of the real rulers of our democracy – the American people.

    CLICK HERE TO GET THE FOX NEWS APP

    How high did the conspiracy go in trying to hobble President Trump, tangle him up with endless investigations and move against him with impeachment? That’s what we need to find out now, and Attorney General Barr is doing his job and seeking justice by working to uncover the truth.

    Barr deserves the gratitude of the American people for what he doing – not political attacks from partisan Democrats who are focused on doing everything possible to undermine President Trump and making him a one-term president.

    BE
    Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
    09 May 2020, 12:08
    #18
    09 May 2020, 12:08#18

    The attempted COUP has now been PROVEN  to go all the way up to Hussein Obummer. 



    RO
    RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
    09 May 2020, 13:02
    #19
    09 May 2020, 13:02#19

    Interesting fact . . . the same people who are stupid enough to believe Barack Obama is a Muslim are also stupid enough to believe Bozo is a christian.

    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    09 May 2020, 13:04
    #20
    09 May 2020, 13:04#20

    Rooinek

    You have no idea what you are talking about.  

    You were talking baloney about Dershowits and Simpson - that alone is clear. 

    Has Trump ever be charged of any crime related to sexual perversion?  Never - there never has been a case and never will be because the stories are based on newspaper libel.

    Has Dershowitz ever been a lawyer hired by Trump to represent him.  Never,   He was asked  by the White House to deal with the broader concept  of the usage of Impeachment.  He did the same when the charges against Clinton in 1997 were an issue,    He argued against impeachment of Clinton on legal and historic grounds - using the same approach in the Trump case,   He was used as an expert - not as a defense lawyer.       


    RO
    RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
    09 May 2020, 13:11
    #21
    09 May 2020, 13:11#21
    Ou Maaik, you appear to be labouring under the delusion that I give even the samllest, tiniest little toss about the opinion of a stinking liar.
    I would have thought I'd made it abundantly clear by now but maybe you're even more stupid than I initially thought . . . although that hardly seems possible.
    Yap away for my attention if you like, just don't expect me to engage you in any discussion or debate. I just don't see the point of engaging with a confirmed liar and a coward.
    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    09 May 2020, 13:42
    #22
    09 May 2020, 13:42#22

    Thanks Rooinek - you are welcome to ignore my contribution, but it is evident that unchallenged your distortions may have merit,  I will keep clarifying your Baloney  for that purpo se,   

    CE
    CeradynePro9,374 posts
    09 May 2020, 13:55
    #23
    09 May 2020, 13:55#23

    Hahahahaha. Ou Rooies, Blobbie, Facts and Opinion do not sit well. 

    "A fact is a thing that is known to be consistent with objective reality and can be proven to be true with evidence."

    "An opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement that is not conclusive. "

    Ou Blobbie's article starts with this:

    "The editorial board is a group of opinion journalists whose views are informed by expertise, research, debate and certain longstanding values. It is separate from the newsroom. "

    This article, Ou Blobbie, is an opinion piece by opinion journalists, based on half-truths and sometimes a half-truth can be worse than a lie. They concentrate on Flynn's confession but they ignore the false premise of the "misdeed" that he was forced to lie under. Their starting point voids the rest of their opinion. 

    If you tell someone to go from Johannesburg to Pretoria, or else he will go to jail, and you then give him directions to go to Kimberley, then surely you cannot jail him for not ending up in Pretoria, can you? Unless, of course, your Name is Donald Trump or you can be linked to Donald Trump.

    And then we have ou Rooies:

    "1. They're all disgusting perverts "

    To bracket Trump in with the others is plain BS. A matter of his own warped opinion.

    "2. They were all defended in court at some stage by Alan Dershowitz "

    Plain wrong on two grounds. Utter BS to put it mildly. 

    Derschowitz, for starters did not defend Trump in court. 

    Secondly. He did not even defend Trump in the impeachment trial. He was just an expert witness on Trump's defence team. The defence was done by Pat mainly done by Pat Cipiloni and Jay Sekulow. Derschowitz' role, in his own words, were to "..present oral arguments at the Senate trial to address the constitutional arguments against impeachment and removal". That means that he had to address the Senate as to what the Constitution has to say about impeachment and removal.

    "3. In all cases Dershowitz got them off (to some extent anyway) even though they were all guilty. "

    Uhmmm. Same as the reaction to point no 2. Utter BS.

    Derschowitz didn't "get him off". The facts, the law and the truth got him off. His defence team defended him, against the vague allegations that the House drummed up, by proving his innocence.

    "4. They all treat women like shit."

    Another opinion, as far as Trump is concerned. I could list a whole host of examples proving the exact opposite but I'm just not interested. Particularly not if only to entertain Ou Rooies' warped imagination any further.

    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    09 May 2020, 14:27
    #24
    09 May 2020, 14:27#24

    Ceradyne

    Dershowits was given the same assignment in the Clinton case as he did in the Trump case.  He was against both impeachments and used the same arguments,    

    CE
    CeradynePro9,374 posts
    09 May 2020, 14:45
    #25
    09 May 2020, 14:45#25

    Careful now Mike. 

    You wouldn’t want to force ou Rooies to also bracket Bill Clinton in with Epstein and Weinstein now, would you? 

    Have you ever heard of something as preposterous as Clinton being close to Epstein and Weinstein now, have you? Or Old Bill treating women like shit? Are you mad?

    Oh wait a minute.......


    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    09 May 2020, 14:52
    #26
    09 May 2020, 14:52#26

    LOL

    DB
    DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
    09 May 2020, 15:00
    #27
    09 May 2020, 15:00#27

    Do you guys think it accomplishes anything trying debate and reason with Snark and Rudeneck on this topic? They have made up their minds ages ago. They have no interest or tolerance for anything other than their own world view...they are what they accuse the right of being...and nothing will change that.

    BO
    bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
    09 May 2020, 23:34
    #28
    09 May 2020, 23:34#28

    Cronyism.  Sies.

    CE
    CeradynePro9,374 posts
    10 May 2020, 00:42
    #29
    10 May 2020, 00:42#29

    Another typical Bobbie post. Either long copied and pasted articles with no personal contribution or opinion, or a short nonsensical phrase. 

    Not much of a debater, are you ou Blobbie?

    RO
    RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
    10 May 2020, 08:38
    #30
    10 May 2020, 08:38#30
    "Not much of a debater, are you ou Blobbie?"
    Wehe . . . this from the weak-arsed coward whose idea of a debate is answering questions with a question of his own and then stamping his little foot and demanding answers to his questions without bothering to answer even one of the questions put to him.
    The stinking hypocrisy is actually staggering.
    PL
    PlumCaptain21,007 posts
    10 May 2020, 10:02
    #31
    10 May 2020, 10:02#31

    Rooi, 

    You do exactly what you've just described above...And worse.

    DB
    DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
    10 May 2020, 11:38
    #32
    10 May 2020, 11:38#32

    Exactly Plum...and deliberately so. Biggest bullshitter ever and a selfloauthing coward to boot. Something serious went wrong somewhere. This isn't normal, not even close.

    CE
    CeradynePro9,374 posts
    10 May 2020, 11:45
    #33
    10 May 2020, 11:45#33

    Prof Jonathan Turley exposing leftie hypocrisy: 


    RO
    RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
    10 May 2020, 12:17
    #34
    10 May 2020, 12:17#34

    Plum, put up an example, chump. 

    Here is a thread where Ceradunce does exactly what I said.

    Now, instead of being a sanctimonious twat, put on your bi g boy pants and put up a link to a thread or an instance where I behave in such a cowardly manner.

    Put up your proof, big mouth.

    CL
    clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
    10 May 2020, 12:40
    #35
    10 May 2020, 12:40#35

    Rooinek]

    Just a question as to you personally,   How would you like it if -

    *   the Police concoct a crime that you never committed and laid charges against you;

    *   bankrupt you through legal costs to defend yourself;

    *   threaten you with serious charges eg "treason"

    Would you be happy about that?    

    RO
    RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
    10 May 2020, 12:51
    #36
    10 May 2020, 12:51#36
    Ou Maaik, do shut your deceitful lying trap.
    How many times do I have to flush before you disappear?
    CE
    CeradynePro9,374 posts
    10 May 2020, 13:12
    #37
    10 May 2020, 13:12#37

    Let’s entertain ou Rooies  

    This was my first interaction with him on said thread. 

    “ Posted by: Ceradyne (8801 posts)

    May 06, 2020, 13:36

    “ Bozo did suggest drinking or injecting Lysol as a cure for coronavirus . . . just click here to see for yourself. “

    Could you be so kind and give us the exact timestamp and then quote exactly what he said to suggest, to you, that he meant for Lysol to be ingested or injected as a cure for coronavirus. “

    Ou Rooies’ subsequent reply, and this was even before his “arguments“ started going south:

    “  Posted by: Rooinek (10125 posts)

    May 06, 2020, 13:50

    "Could you be so kind and give us the exact timestamp and then quote exactly what he said to suggest, to you, that he meant for Lysol to be ingested or injected as a cure for coronavirus. "


    Sigh . . . like a helpless little child!

    Between 0.26 and 0.50, Ceradunce.“

    Note that right until the end of the thread, the poor child refused to quote Trump saying what he allegedly said, according to Rooies.

    Reminds me of another bullshitter, Adam “we have seen clear evidence of the Trump campaign colluding with the Russians” Schiff . That was in 2017. His mission was to have Trump removed ASAP. To this day he has kept his evidence close to his heart. Just like ou Rooies is doing here.

    Imagine if Schiff really did have evidence and he went ahead and produced it at the time. Trump would have been out of office and the whole world would have been spared this horrendous ordeal, all caused by Trump, and most importantly ou Rooies wouldn’t have had to keep on dreaming up imaginary bullshit to keep his charade going.

    You demand an example of yourself  to behaving in a cowardly. No need for anybody to start searching for examples. You have already provided excellent proof. The very same thread that you linked provides ample proof.



    CE
    CeradynePro9,374 posts
    10 May 2020, 13:18
    #38
    10 May 2020, 13:18#38

    Hahahaha. Ou Rooies’ masterful debating skills on display. 

    Ou Maaikie asks him a few simple straight forward questions and his reply, straight from the Toastmasters’ text book:

    “ Posted by: Rooinek (10127 posts)

    May 10, 2020, 12:51

    Ou Maaik, do shut your deceitful lying trap.


    How many times do I have to flush before you disappear?  “

    Excellent debating ou Rooies, excellent debating. 

    — END OF THREAD —

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