Russia and Putin are sooooooo evil

The same goes for Hollywood films, when it comes to war films so inferior to Russian and German production, except perhaps Schlinders List and The Winds of War Series.

Tainted with anti Russian bias, despite the fact that WW2 cost Russia 24 million people to nail the final nails to stop the Nazis and the Japanese Army in Manchuria (seldom highlighted by the west).

I remember a very old film which I streamed a couple of years back with actors Albert Finney, George Hamilton , George Peppard and Romy Schneider...The Victors. The last scene...a stab in the Russian integrity.

Ja Blob, Switzerland were hand om die blaas with Nazi Germany...imagine even the bankers turning their back on Putin...WTF is going on?

So the ‘realistic’ position is it’s okay for Russian soldiers to have raped staggering numbers of German girls….got it.

It's horrible what humans are capable of!

Y es the memorial to Soviet troops in took part in the battle of Berlin is called the Tomb of the Unknown Solider. Berliner's have a a difficult relationship with and many have another name for it, the Tomb of the Unknown Rapist. As Mozart already said their is estimates up to 2 million women raped by Soviet Army on their way into Berlin. If I recall their was possible 100-200 thousands suicides as a result.

I've read Beevor's book of the Battle of Berlin and there was some accounts that stuck with me. In such case some Soviet troops where going from house to house looking for women to rape. They came across a man in his house and asked him where his wife was. His wife was hiding inside the house. The man side his wife had been killed in an allied bombing raid and took the Soviet solider's next door to a mound of chared dead bodies of those killed in a bombing raid. The man pointed at a female body and said that's my wife. The Soviet soldier's became visible upset at this, then said a prayer at mound. Then they went next door and raped the women there.

There was this strange duality to the Soviet soldiers, where the German adult population was terrified of them and went into hiding, but they would allow their children out because often the Soviet soldiers would be very kind to them.

The Soviet brutality wasn't restricted to the German's either, Polish women and even Soviet women who where liberated from prison camps frequently suffered a similar fate. In general the Soviets assumed anyone who was taken prisoner by the Germans was either a coward/traitor or had been turned by the Germans and treated them with the upmost brutality.

I would point while it was would of been an awful experience, you where far better off being a German prisoner of war in Soviet captivity than the other way round. The Soviet's largely saw the German's prisoner as a work force to be exploited but as a result it was best to keep them alive.

In the interests of balance I will also point out  the Allied forces carried out a large number of rapes in Germany as well, by American's, French, Moroccan and to a lesser extent the British forces. While occurring no where near to the extent of what the Russian's where perpetrating we are still talking tens of thousands of cases and its one of those things that western history teachers have turned a blind eye too.

Of course Seb will say this is all western lies.

He will of course say nothing about the alliance Russia had with Germany up till the German invasion and that they where happy to sell the German's oil up till that point to help circumvent the British blockade (hell the British and French even considered bombing Russia oilfields because of this). They way to connived with Germany to occupy Poland, nothing about the attacks on Finland, the occupation of the Baltic states, annexation of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina, the Katyn masacre, their non actions during the Warsaw uprising. Of course at the end of world war 2 we had the Soviets basically subjugating much of Central and Eastern Europe for 50 odd years, marked by the occasional brutal crack down on anything that looked like an independence movement.

Now I'm more than happy to acknowledge the Russian's played the largest role in defeating Nazi Germany, many millions died and fought heroically and sacrificed so much to defeat the Nazi's, many more would have died had the Nazi's won. But Seb's version of history is that of a fanatical Putin sock puppet.

OK  -_ I will tell you a real story from a real witness.   Shortly after starting to work for the Department of Forestry I met a Dutch ex-soldier who was serving in the Dutch army in what is today Indonesia and was caught by the Japanese and ended up in the camp on the River Kwai.  He was a trained officer and after the War left the Netherlands and migrated to SA,   

His wife ended up in another prisoner camp of the Japanese.    Both were freed by US soldiers and taken to Singapore where the US army marched into Singapore.    On the main road into the city itself there was not a single woman  on five blocks either side of that route that was NOT raped and that also involved his wife.       I doubt not he would not have lied about that.

Ole Mozart and Stav trying to defend their Nazi Nato wicked forefathers now up to their evil again.The USA has taken up the mantle of the dead Nazi's and revived the Hitler dream of conquering Russia. 

Moonrover they have no convictions and follow the herd narratives. To be fair in my youth I probably would have been similar but I gradually began to see the importance of speaking the truth after thoroughly seeking and researching, no matter what the consequences. I was not always a Christian and it is only in the last years that I was converted...I genuinely would like this to happen to all as the Lord said when nailed to the cross, Father forgive them, as they know not what they are doing. I know they will mock, but somehow or somewhere in their lifes journey the scales will fall off their eyes. It is not in our feeble efforts to convince, only the power of God can do that.

A lie is a lie, deception, cunning craft and devious characteristics are tactics of satanic powers. Thank my parents and my conversion for what I now believe is the truth no matter the cost. It is the most valuable thing to cling to, even when your life could be in jeopardy...the resolve to never bow down to false ideals or anything that man creates and worships.  God and Christ is all I want.

In a way Putin made a blunder in 2013 and 2014 when Nuland and McCain started stirring up the dirt, Russia should have moved in kicked them out...they certainly had no business there, 5800 miles away.

Putin was too trusting then (behind the scenes Minsk agreements were red-herrings) behind the cover up, Merkle confessed this a little while ago,Nato was sending weapons and military experts, right into Ukraine to prepare for conflict, far right extremists were indeed shelling civilians of Russian ethnics. Russia had an obligation to protect its people in Donbass and Lugansk. Without intervention the killing and genocide would continue and escalate (and yes it's 100% true, that is what makes the camouflage, the banning of Russian media, the sanctions, cancel culture, the lying of west narrative so damn evil.

USA days of poking their noses into other nations business are over...the countries in global south see this. They been doing it for years and now it's come to a head. Russia and China won't back down, thats for sure and USA is going to see it's arse. The line has drawn and further interference will be the spark that sets the gunpowder alight.

It's complete insanity.

America has no true friends only cowardly sycophants and cupboard lovers.

Seb

You could also say that Ukraine was far too trusting of Russia...considering what the Russians put them through previously(USSR). What happened then could be blamed on the regime and system at the time but Ukraine had all the reason in the world to be as skeptical as they wanted to be of Russia, communist or "not".

And America will always have a say in the world because people want them to have a say. They are looked to for answers and help. And that won't change because resources and strength mean something. It's obvious that not everything they do turns out for the best but show me any country with the Midas touch. There isn't one. Perhaps places like New Zealand or South Africa may say that we've never caused as much damage internationally...but then you have to ask how much good we've done too? Its relatively easy to claim moral superiority when you're rarely under any pressure and there isn't much expected of you.

To wield a big sword you have to mine a lot of steel and there's a good chance somebody may be living on the land you intend to mine. The way biology sets us up is that there must be someone wielding that biggest sword because such a system offers us the best chance of successfully hacking through the chaos of the universe. Almost every living thing you see around you has made it to where it is right now by that exact system. 

I'm nervous about a multi-polar world and skeptical of the sword changing hands because the current balance of things has seen the most peace, and more people are fed and free than ever before. The USA has presided over the technological revolution that has given us so much comfort that we've become almost apathetic. And there isn't really anyone else capable of similar at this point. Certainly not China or Russia. I'm also ever cognisant of the fact that when a place does 60% right and 40% wrong...that wrong can seem like 99%.

NATO should not have undermined Russia.

If by undermine you mean they undermined Russia's ability to use the threat of force to coerce its neighbors into doing what they wanted, then yes they undermined Russia. Most people would consider that a good thing.

Both are to blame and who is more to blame is almost impossible to discern

No its not.

(now I know some dickhead here is gonna say that Russia invaded Ukraine so it's easy to figure out)

Forgive the dickheads for pointing out reality. Sorry its awfully dickish of them.

.as though Russia where never forced to make concessions and promises were never broken

What concessions, that they left the countries that they brutally occupied for 50 odd years? That they allowed these much weaker countries to join a defensive alliance for their own protection. Promises have been indeed broken by the West, though Russia is hardly one to talk. But it's insanely biased to suggest that comes anywhere remotely close to provided a justification for Russia's action or that the West/Ukraine is as much to blame as the Russians.

But if you want to narrow it down...as I said ages ago, blame the political failures that caused this, on the politicians...not the innocent Ukrainians and Russians that are simply doing what they are forced to and being killed in the process.

Its so incredible easy to say it should have all being sorted by the politicians before the war and they are the ones to blame. Lets say the west gave assurances to Russia that Ukraine would never be allowed join NATO, would that have been enough for the Russia when they where also talking about Nazi's running Ukraine and genocide in the Donbass. Tell me how the politicians in Ukraine or the west could have politically settled the issue of Nazi's running Ukraine, when Nazi's where not running Ukraine. How could they political settle genocide in the Donbass when there was no genocide in the Donbass? You know damn well those where just a casus belli the Russian's where using to justify the attack on Ukraine. Putin wanted this war and just rolled up a whole load bullshit excuses to justify it.

The people saying the politicians should of sorted it,  mean one thing Ukraine and the west should have appeased Russia. An absolute guarantee Ukraine would of never joined NATO. The democratically elected government replaced by a pro Russian government, the Ukraine army to be more or less disbanded, the recognition of the separatists states and the recognition of Russia's rule over the Crimea.

When you put a label on the people of either side, it simply makes it easier for you to accept their needless death.

It's the opposite of what it should be. The fact that people on either side are dying is 100% unacceptable. And that's where everyone's focus should be.

If the average person on both sides wasn't so easily convinced that the other side was the devil incarnate then perhaps all of this could have ended a lot sooner.

Now who's virtue signalling.

USA days of poking their noses into other nations business are over...the countries in global south see this. They been doing it for years and now it's come to a head. Russia and China won't back down, thats for sure and USA is going to see it's arse. The line has drawn and further interference will be the spark that sets the gunpowder alight.

It's complete insanity.

The lighter and human side,

https://youtu.be/ekeq4szDmJo

My insistence that people should take a step back and be less tribal is a mechanism to solve the problem. It doesn't take sides and it doesn't paint a particular group as good or bad.

I can understand starting from a position of neutrality, but staying on the fence doesn't give you a moral leg up over those who have committed to a position. Its like your a moderator in a TV debate between two people. One of them says its raining outside the TV studio, the other says its not raining. Each of them spend 30 minutes debating them, raising various points.You make sure to give both people equally opportunity to speak but it never occurs to you go over to the window and actually look out to see if its actually raining. In your case I simple think that's because you want or prefer to believe that the west is just as guilty and Russia and don't particularly want to look too deep into anything that my contradict that.

This is vastly different to coming on here and perpetually extrapolating on horrors and claiming how ghastly everything is in attempting to affirm one's own purity

...not at all. It would be impossible for both sides to be perfectly equally guilty. 

Assume Russia is 80% responsible. 

You still have to find a middle ground in order to get to a solution more quickly. And that's going to be best achieved by everybody that is not directly involved being less tribal about the situation.

Or you can continue to claim that Russia is evil while their side claims everyone on your side is even evil...and this goes on forever, potentially culminating in WW3.

What I do know is that I don't know or care much about either of those places and I'd prefer my life, and the lives of billions of people around the world, not to be destroyed by a conflict that has nothing to do with me or them.

...not at all. It would be impossible for both sides to be perfectly equally guilty. 

Assume Russia is 80% responsible. 

Or you can continue to claim that Russia is evil while their side claims everyone on your side is even evil...and this goes on forever, potentially culminating in WW3.

One side claiming the other side is evil is not what's causing this war to go on.

What I do know is that I don't know or care much about either of those places and I'd prefer my life, and the lives of billions of people around the world, not to be destroyed by a conflict that has nothing to do with me or them.

Fair enough. But it does remind me of that old saying

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Or another one

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

I'm not actively spreading misinformation or promoting a narrative of false equivalency.

Ultimately what we say on this little internet form doesn't matter but on a more wider level Ukraine's survival comes down to continued aid from the west.

Narratives like their each as bad as each other, that military aid is only prolonging the conflict, Ukraine can't win or that Ukraine is fighting a proxy war at the behest of the US all serve Russia's interests and if they can convince enough people in the west of this than than Western aid can dry up allowing Russia to win.

I generally don't make posts calling Russia evil. All that does is make peace and reconciliation more difficult but I'm happy to call bullshit where I see it and I won't apologize for having an opinion.

Asides from which we are on internet forum in a section that's mostly related to politics and world events. We are free to discuss what ever we want and the Russo-Ukraine war is a pretty major event. If you find some posters comments so nauseating, then don't read them.

These pro-Ukranian supporters generally dont know much about Ukraine,the history, the people.

Less more do they know a our Russia, all they know is the West and what the Hollywood media pumps out.